Greetings-
I bought sight unseen a 4103 that has been stored in a barn since the owner quit driving it. My nine year old son and I are going to pick it up in late June and drive it back from Vermont to Utah. Was wondering if anyone could tell me who the first owner was? The current owner has had it since the 1970's, and did the motor home conversion on it.
S/N is 4103-349
Have quite a bit of experience with 6-71's as stationary generator and hydraulic power sources on fishing boats in Alaska, very minimal exposure as prime movers.
Any suggestions on starting one up after sitting for a decade and a half? I anticipate a day or two of poking around, changing oil, surveying tires, checking fuel for water, replacing batteries and the like.
Ideas on tires? I have been reading on the tire rotations per mile, and that a standard geared GM of this vintage was set up for 495 rotations per mile. Am thinking to go to 22.5 wheels, any suggestions for a suitable tire?
Thanks in advance...
Archer -
PD4103-349 was delivered new in May of 1951 as fleet number S-650 to Southwestern Greyhound Lines, HQ'd in Ft. Worth, TX. Traditionally, Greyhound sold off their older equipment in the fall after 10 years of revenue service. Thus this coach was most likely sold to a second-tier operator or a private party in the fall of 1961. Greyhound's maintenance, at the time, was pretty good, but who knows after they sold it. Also, seeing as to who the original owner was, it ran all over the dry southwestern US, not the NE Rust Belt. So it may be pretty corrosion free.
Be aware that windshields for this coach are made from unobtainium, and have been for over 20 years. If (and that's a big IF), you happen to find somebody who has a new one, prepare to pay over $1000 for it.
I'll let others chime in on the difference between a coach engine vs a stationary generator model.
DO NOT USE MULTI-WEIGHT OIL IN THIS ENGINE! Straight 40wt CF-2 only. Mobile Delvac 1240, Delo 100 and Shell Rotella T are the three most popular brands. All three brands have dealer/distributor locators on their websites, use them to find someone in the area where the bus is located that can have it on hand for you. (As a supplement to this, O'Reilly's can usually get you Delo 100 within 24-48 hours. Order part number 100-40-1, and be sure to tell the counter jockey to put CHV in the vendor box. You'll need about seven gallons, buy three cases which will give you two extra gallons.) My personal preference is Delvac 1240, but it takes a little more sleuthing to find it.
11R22.5 is a common size used by many busnuts, but shop carefully, as the revs per mile for this size can vary considerably. Try to keep as close to the 495 rpm number as possible for "factory" performance. If you happen to get a good deal on some 24.5 rims, then 11R24.5 is a good size. Be aware, too, that the trucking industry is finally starting to convert to metric sizing, similar to what autos have been using now for over 15 years. So a 295/70R22.5 can be very similar to an 11R22.5 - but again, shop carefully.
See, you've got LOTS of homework to do before you go!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: Archer on May 22, 2017, 10:29:42 PM... Any suggestions on starting one up after sitting for a decade and a half? I anticipate a day or two of poking around, changing oil, surveying tires, checking fuel for water, replacing batteries and the like....
You are SO much better off than most of us since you know these engines. And you'll know how to be sure that injectors and "the rack" are free to move full range, go back to idle, and respond correctly (biggest problem is being stuck and "gummed up" by old fuel during long storage).
No matter how good you are with an engine, you don't want to start out by having a runaway on your first day.
Good luck from North Carolina.
you do know that you will need tires before you get out of Vermont... ???
This sounds like an adventure in the making. Welcome to the madness and have a safe trip. We look forward to you coming back here many more times in the future.
Will
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on May 23, 2017, 05:56:17 AM
You are SO much better off than most of us since you know these engines. And you'll know how to be sure that injectors and "the rack" are free to move full range, go back to idle, and respond correctly (biggest problem is being stuck and "gummed up" by old fuel during long storage).
No matter how good you are with an engine, you don't want to start out by having a runaway on your first day.
Good luck from North Carolina.
I'm not so sure about knowing "these engines". I don't think fooling around with 6-71 generator set is preparation for a locked-up injector rack in the full fuel position at start up in a bus.
--Geoff
Quote from: Geoff on May 23, 2017, 07:46:43 PM
I'm not so sure about knowing "these engines". I don't think fooling around with 6-71 generator set is preparation for a locked-up injector rack in the full fuel position at start up in a bus.
--Geoff
uhm.... Have quite a bit of experience with 6-71's as stationary generator and hydraulic power sources on fishing boats in Alaska.
that's a bit more than fooling around.
RJ-
Thank you for the bus history. The owner told me that he has had it under cover when not driving it since he bought it. His son told me the undercarriage is clean, and as rust free as could be on a vehicle of this vintage. They commented that the destination chart/roll had New Mexico towns on it, which confirms its South West early life.
I had planned to order some 40wt from a close to destination O'Reilly's a week before we fly out, and pick it up on the way. Could you elaborate a little more on the CHV? That is an acronym I don't know.
A local dealer has dozens of 24.5 Budd wheels for ten bucks each. I need to figure if putting them on a pallet and shipping them across the country to a local tire dealer in the North East would save me any money. At least I could bead blast and put paint on them if I started here.
And to all of you other commenters and well- wishers,
Thank you for you interest and suggestions. Yes, it will have new tires before it gets very far. Crossing my fingers that the engine will start right up and settle down to a smooth idle. Hoping that mice haven't nested in the wiring and chewed insulation off in remote, hard to find spots. And hopefully only a minimum of the things that could possibly go wrong, will.
Will keep you all posted on the adventure with pics and narrative,
Very kind regards and thank yous,
Tony
The 4103 is sure a good looking GM bus,I have good friend that has been working on his for over 10 years now
Quote from: Geoff on May 23, 2017, 07:46:43 PMI'm not so sure about knowing "these engines". I don't think fooling around with 6-71 generator set is preparation for a locked-up injector rack in the full fuel position at start up in a bus.
--Geoff
At least he didn't reply "Ummm, what's a 'rack'?" ;D ;D Yes, there is a learning curve for anybody with a new-to-them bus, but I think he's probably got quite a few steps ahead of the average newbie. I hope so, if the condition of the bus is as he's described it, he's going to need it.
Tony "CHV" is short for Chevron.
Good luck on your adventure and keep us posted! (we are here to help if needed!)
;D BK ;D
Do Detroit Diesel engines need any additives or special consideration when running the "new" low sulfur diesel?
Quote from: Archer on May 26, 2017, 02:18:45 PM
Do Detroit Diesel engines need any additives or special consideration when running the "new" low sulfur diesel?
I would say no.
Keep in mind additives, oil and antifreeze have gotten some people ignored on this forum LOL.
John
Save your money for 40 wt oil.
No snake oil required in the fuel.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
WELCOME !
No additives ;D Like others said...save the money for straight 40...and make sure you inspect every inch of every coolant line on the coach.
If you worked boats in Alaska, you might have seen what water with a high sodium content can do to a coolant hose...ie it's corrosive to everything, etc.
You're fortunate to have a bit of DD engine experience. I would only caution that you might look at this bus, the way it's set up (engine with tranny with drivetrain)...and say WTF?? Been there. But never fear...we all figure it out eventually.
And bookmark this site. The folks here are hands down the best, and you'll usually get several valid opinions.
And 40 non valid ones, ;D
Hi and welcome;
As for my two cents worth, keep in mind the fuel pump. Depending
on how old it is, the new fuel can eat the diaphragm on an old fuel
pump. Good luck and keep up posted on your trip home. A few
photo's would be great also.
Merle.
Quote from: ol713 on May 27, 2017, 04:34:52 PM
Hi and welcome;
As for my two cents worth, keep in mind the fuel pump. Depending
on how old it is, the new fuel can eat the diaphragm on an old fuel
pump. Good luck and keep up posted on your trip home. A few
photo's would be great also.
Merle.
I don't think he will have that problem on a gear type fuel pump
I read what you guys are saying about additives ,but surely for a bus that has been sitting for a number of years ,dumping a gal of Marvel Mystery Oil into the fuel wouldn't hurt ,or would it?? Come to think of it they may not make this stuff any more but it will make things slick as snot on a door knob!!!!We used to Use STP to massage the main bearing and rod journals and used the MMO to massage the rings.Sure would make a rebuild turn over!! Had a guy one time that used the STP to massage the rings ,but that's another story!!
I would loosen the oil drain plug a couple of turns to check for coolant in pan. Maybe having it hauled to your destination on a low boy or wrecker would, in the long run be a better deal. Pull the valve cover first thing to see how everything looks and check the rack movement.
YES, check the rack for sure!
And, I would see if it it going to start and run properly before putting in new oil. Also when ready to drive, go easy for about 10 miles without revving it up high or working it hard. Even then out on the road, keep the speed and rpms down. Long way to your destination. What plans do you have in case of major breakdown partway to your home?
Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
Couple more questions-
What is the unladen weight of a 4103?
I realize with the seats out, it would be somewhat less, and with tanks and furniture and appliances, somewhat more that somewhat less.
Looking at tires that are load range G and load range H.
Any thoughts on that?
Also, batteries for running lights and engine cranking, what are options some of you have gone with? Do I need a full set of truck batteries, or will a couple "standard" 12 volts work?
This is just my humble opinion. ;D
I think a good starting point for weight is the bus ID tag. It should tell you weight, per axel. I realize that was for in-service use, but until you have the bus weighed, it'll do.
As for tires, get the best you can possibly afford. New on the front...always. No re-treads. ALWAYS keep them properly filled. And replace them before you head home with the bus, if possible.
I keep my engine and external light batteries separate from my "house" system. MC8 used 2 8D start batteries placed in the right front. I keep them there due to weight equalization, lessening any fire hazard and I figure the engineers of that unit had a reason.... Whatever you do will be good for you. But read the books before making crazy huge changes.
Quote from: Archer on May 31, 2017, 09:38:08 AM
What is the unladen weight of a 4103?
This was never published by GM during the 4103's life. However, using the federal bridge weight limit laws, your coach (unless otherwise noted by builder, which is wasn't), you're limited to 12,000 lbs on the front axle and 20,000 lbs on the rear, for a total of 32,000 lbs GVW. At the first chance you get, run it across a CAT scale to find out it's current weight.
Quote from: Archer on May 31, 2017, 09:38:08 AM
Looking at tires that are load range G and load range H.
Your choice and your $$. Gs are less expensive than Hs, so unless you're going with marble floors and granite counter tops, you probably don't need the extra weight capacity of H range tires.
But more importantly, you need to look for tires that match the original revs per mile that GMC designed the powertrain around, which is 495/mi. Keeping as close to that number as possible will give you performance similar to when it came out of the factory. 11R22.5, 12R22.5 and 11R24.5 are three common sizes that bus nuts use on their GMs. You'll also find that the trucking industry is finally getting around to metric sizing, so if that's what you're being offered, remember to choose one that's as close to 495/mile as possible.
Quote from: Archer on May 31, 2017, 09:38:08 AM
Also, batteries for running lights and engine cranking, what are options some of you have gone with? Do I need a full set of truck batteries, or will a couple "standard" 12 volts work?
Two Group size "8D" were the standard batteries on your coach. If you live in milder climate, two Group 31s are a common substitution, and much less expensive.
IIRC, a 4103 is a POSITIVE GROUND coach - double check carefully before hooking up new batteries!! You don't want to let the smoke out of something by hooking the batteries up bassackwards!! (Many folk have converted 4104 and Scenicruisers from Positive to Negative ground, the "how-to" info's out there.)
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Hi Team-
Getting ready to fly out late Sunday night to begin this adventure.
Bought online a CD that has 1378 or so pages of photocopied pages of GM manuals for this 4103. A lot of late night reading...
The bus has the original disposable element filters for fuel and oil. I am wanting to take spare elements with me, as the nearest auto parts store there is an hour away, and the industrial parts houses even further.
The part numbers I have gleaned from the cd for filter elements are: air 12.7410, oil 8.4300, fuel 12.0880, and fuel injector 12.6800. These don't seem to correspond with anything on an internet search, and I was wondering if any of you have numbers to ask a vendor.
I am going to check with some local dealers when they open up later today, but I like having too much information rather than not enough...
Two five gallon pails of Delvac 1240 waiting at the oil distributor's will call for pickup on Monday.
Thanks in advance.
PS, anybody have a part number for wiper blades?
Archer,
Those numbers look like group numbers from the parts book. Definitely not part numbers.
Try these Detroit numbers:
Oil: 5573014
Primary Fuel: 5574961
Secondary Fuel: 5574508
Those numbers have probably been superseded, but should be able to be cross-referenced.
Wipers I can't help you with. You'll probably have to match them up at the parts store.
Bob
Bob-
Thank you. Just now (Sat Night) getting back to the bulletin board, flying out Sunday night. The local Detroit Diesel house got me an oil cartridge and a fuel cartridge, they are in the car and not handy for numbers. He was of the opinion that primary and secondary fuel filters were only available in spin on style.
Offhand, what would the cooling system capacity be, so I can get sufficient antifreeze?
Thanks again,
Tony
Tony,
Your local Detroit guy is misinformed. The original filters, both primary and secondary, were cartridge style and should still be available.
I believe your cooling system holds about 14 gallons, not including the cabin heating system which adds another 3 or 4 gallons.
Scott Crosby should have a better feel for that. Perhaps he'll chime in.
Bob
Tony -
I think the 4103 uses the same length wiper blade as the 4104s and 4106s and others from that era, which is 20" long.
Here's the Trico HD number for that size: 63-201.
Good luck on your journey, and keep us posted!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Don't try to start without making surely I rack moves freely from idle to full fuel. This is critical. You can easily blow one up of these engines from stuck injectors. Don't waste new oil till it runs ok. I would use a 5 gallon can of fuel at rear of coach with pickup hose hooked to inlet of primary fuel filter. If it tries to run away, pull the hose out of the can.
Good luck! I'd be interested in a pic of the luggage space directly in back of the front wheels for my 4103 which I think is missing a couple longitudinal supports :)
Couple other things on my wish list, hope the journey goes well! If not? uship.com
Reverse solenoid is on the panel to the left of driver or can be hand actuated from the engine bay right side.. hold the button down from neutral up to first then down into second and it will be in reverse.
Might go for one of those AAA for coaches memberships?
Mobilized on site, changed oil, filters, (there were spares at the bus)drained 100 gallons of old fuel out, (siphoned it right out of the filler tube)put in some new, replaced fuel filters, though had to make some gaskets. Used Automatic Transmission Fluid to pre fill the fuel filters. New batteries and one new clamp, polished up the connections.
Pushed the rear start button for about 8 seconds, and the engine cranked smoothly and fired up, loped a little, and settled into a smooth low idle.
Wouldn't build air pressure, so checked for system leaks.
Rusted thru pinhole in one of the front air tanks.
Sheet metal screw with gasket paper and rv silicone fixed that one, but not the one next to it that showed up when pressure went up.
Tanks and fittings were beyond field expedient fixing, so rig is going to a mechanic shop for next round of repair.
More updates as things develop, about a month out.
What's that stuff on TV? Flex-tape? Make a commercial!
--Geoff
Hey friends-
Running into some issues getting this rig insured.
When we went out in June the assistant to the Agency owner said, "hey, no problem, 20 bucks a month, should we sign you up now?"
Should have taken her up on it.
Anyway, the last trip out, when I drove it from the barn to a shop in town after the air tanks got fixed, the owner of the agency said,
"Well, the company needs photos of the sides and front and back, and four shots of the interior, and pictures of the propane system,
before they will underwrite it. I'm willing to run it half an hour on back country roads once, but taking off on the interstate with a
temporary tag and a bus older than most of the highway patrolmen out there is an invitation for a pull over.
Since the propane system was a 5 gallon cylinder and regulator bungeed to the wall of one of the bays, I pulled it out and took
a picture of it removed from the rig.
She said that's not good enough. They say since you have a range and heater in the bus, at some point you will be using it. So they
won't insure it.
I said, "All I want is liability coverage to drive it from Vermont to Utah. I'll eat the $5k pricetag and the $3k tires and wheels if it
crashes and immolates."
"Sorry, that's the best I can do." was the reply.
Any suggestions?
I don't want to make another trip out there and replumb the propane system, and then have to wait weeks for an insurance binder.
Kind regards all,
Tony
What state? Insurance is written and controlled along state boundaries. In CA, I just got Progressive and it was the same as the PO that had it insured in CO.
I've got Progressive in Wisconsin as well. No problems so far, but both of the coaches I've had insured were professionally converted and ready for the road.
Richard
Where in Utah is it going??>>>Dan
Dan, Orem for now, who knows after that...
Also the weight of your bus should be a little over 24000#.>>>Dan
The subject of insurance has been discussed many times before, check the archives of the board for tips on which companies to try and how to present information to them. Basically, do not refer to your coach as a bus. Depending on the licensing laws of your state, it might be referred to as a RV, Motorhome, etc. A bus is a commercial vehicle in their eyes. How was it registered in Vermont last? Show that to whomever wants to know. What does it say on the title? Shop around, there are many insurance companies, and within a company different people can have different opinions about insurability. The agent might say one thing, but the anonymous "Underwriter" might say something else.