I need some advice.
My father recently passed away and left behind his converted bus. It's a 1953 GM PD4104 that he bought in 1979. He put in a few years converting it and then spent his retirement happily traveling the byways with it. I believe the last time he drove it on the road was maybe 15 years ago.
About 10 years ago he had an illness that prevented him from doing anything with it, and so it has sat.
I looked at it last week. The back tires are flat and old (probably 30 years I'm guessing). The body is in good shape overall although the paint is faded. Someone had broken the door or the hinges just rusted and broke. The inside needs a major cleaning but the appliances and fixtures are in there, as well as the two AC units on top, and I believe the generator is underneath (although I would need to confirm that).
So my question is what should I do with this thing? I live 800 miles away in another state.
The easy option is to have someone tow it away and sell it for scrap, as I'm sure the aluminum body has some value. But I'm having a hard time doing that as I know how much my dad really loved it, and plus I'd hate to do that to a piece of 1950's engineering history.
On the other hand, would it be worth my time, effort, and money to somehow get it in a condition where someone else might love it too? I don't even know how to start the engine or the proper procedures to drain and replace fluids, etc. The tires I'm guessing could be fairly expensive to replace if I can get them to a tire store. It would no doubt need a new battery, but there might be other issues likes rodents in the wiring, or a disintegrated brake system, and who knows what else. What would I be getting into and is it worth it?
Any advice would be welcome.
Thanks
Hi,
I think the first question you need to answer is how much does this bus mean to you? If it defined as a family heirloom rather than a commodity, then if you can afford to keep it, even as is, then that makes sense. If you have plenty of other mementos of dad then maybe this discarding it makes sense. You can decide later if you want to restore it and get in back on the road if storing it is something you can accommodate for the time being.
Given that vintage of bus and it has been converted likely means it has less value than if it was still all original. Irrespective of its condition, it probably not worth much once you factor in storage and moving costs. Others know way more than I but that's my take from a newly bit busnut. Good luck.
If you post the location of the coach, there may be someone close by who can give you condition/value estimate. HTH
Also, the quality of the conversion job will determine whether it is worth saving. Location and selling price will help for someone that is looking for a starter unit. Pictures will help.
Thanks for the responses. The bus is currently in the Los Angeles area (San Fernando Valley). I'll see if I can upload some pictures of it. I don't have too much sentimental attachment to it as I only traveled once in it with him. It was his baby and I don't know anything about it to take it on as a project. But it sounds like because of its age it might not be worth doing anything with it. I'll see if I can reinflate the tires. That might be a good place to start. At least it will help if I have it towed away. I'll keep investigating.
Could you list it's serial number? One of our members is trying to track every 4104 that is still in existence. It is on the plate mounted to bottom front of dash coming up steps at entrance door. If that is no longer there, it is also in the outside compartment under driver's side front. There is a lever behind bumperette that you slide up to open door. Inside the compartment, the model and serial number is stamped into the body in Esther large numbers and letters straight in front of you. A couple of good pictures of engine, esp transmission side would be helpful also. Thanks.
I looked on the registration slip and the number there is PD4104862. I'll go look at the bus tomorrow and double check the numbers there and take some pictures.
The last time I had someone haul off a bus for scrap, all I got was $800 for 25,000 lbs. (~3 years ago)
The last time I took one to the scrap yard, I first took pictures & was quoted $18 per hundred pounds. -- when I got there with the actual coach, the best I could get was $3.50 per hundred pounds. (~1-1/2 years ago)
I always prefer to sell it complete to someone who wants it. However, sometimes, having a scrap hauler make it go away may be the best path.
Scrap prices can vary a lot depending on the market. In Ohio, the current rate for vehicles is $170 per ton, but it has been as high as $260 per ton. Before you consider scraping it, explore the possibility that someone who knows GMC's can use it. Condition means a lot to a potential buyer.
I'm off to go take detailed pictures it today. How much does a PD4104 weigh, approximately?
Depends on what is installed. I think GVW on them is around 32000 lbs..
Generally in the low 24000 range.>>>Dan
Nobody ever gets near as much scrapping one as they think they will!
The scrappers deduct for interior, tires, and JUNK this and that!
I have heard and personally seen where someone thought a bus was going to fetch them between $5,000 and $10,000 in scrap where in reality it only brought them $500-$1500!
;D BK ;D
OK I went and had a better look at it. I'm rather embarrassed to post pictures of it. Rodents have made a home in the engine compartment so it's hard to know what shape the engine and tranny are in, unless I clean that mess up, which I'm not too excited to do. The battery compartment was locked so I couldn't look at that. I'll have to find a key or cut or drill the lock. The storage compartments on the right side all open and seem to be OK. The way the bus is parked it's hard to get to the compartments on the left side as I'd have to pull it out somehow. As mentioned, the door, paintwork, and tires are an issue.
After looking today, I'm leaning towards scraping it.
Will I need to put some tires on it to have it towed? What's a ballpark cost for tires for this thing? Oh dang, I forgot to see if the rear wheels are tandem. Anyone know if there are four or six tires on it?
I guess I didn't look as closely as I thought. I'll have to go back and look at it again. :(
6 tires. There isn't a button or switch attached to the gear shift lever is there? Other than wiring, rodents won't do a lot of damage in engine compartment. The oil, dirt, and grease will make it look worse than it may be. To get into condition to sell...tires, batteries, oil change, new fuel, maybe some brake work, maybe if bags, and some leveling valves, you're going to get at least 2 grand into it if you do your own work. Maybe if you list the location of the coach, someone nearby may be interested enough to check it out.
You really should post pictures - If it is going to scrap, there is likely to be some significant value to be gained from some of the trim pieces, light lenses, windshield wipers, window glass, misc small parts, etc.
Depending on what is there, you could get more for the small parts than you will get from the scrap yard.
If scrapping it, tires won't matter. A Landol trailer will drag anything up on deck. :D
I didn't see a button on the shifter. Here are some pics.
OK it looks like I have to load these pics on one at a time.
Pic 3
Pics 4 & 5
Pic 6
Last one for now
It does not look that bad compared to some others that have been sitting. The engine looks fairly clean. The engine door looks solid, and the lift cylinders are holding nicely. The entry door is hanging low and needs attention, and the outside paint is faded, but that can be corrected by someone who cares about having it. It would be of more value if the engine can run well.
It would be interesting to try and start the engine. I would assume I'd need to drain and refill the oil and the fuel and get a new battery. What else would I need to do? Are there any correct procedures I should follow?
You need to flush the fuel system and remove the valve cover to see if the rack moves back and forth freely. It is probably stuck from the old fuel gumming up. It is very important for the rack to move freely or when you start it the engine may get stuck in the full fuel position and become a runaway engine.
This kind of work is better left to an experienced Detroit mechanic, there is too much to explain here.
--Geoff
Find someone that wants it for scrap prices? That looks that it would make someone a very nice project and thats always better than scraping.
Do mechanics make house calls? 'Cause I don't know how I'd get to them.
There are a lot of mobile mechanics, finding one that knows 2-stroke Detroits is the hard part. A lot of mobile mechanics don't have ads in the yellow pages or Internet. A good way to find one is to go to a store that sells truck parts and has a bulletin board. There will be a lot of business cards posted.
--Geoff
Where it bus located, are those CA plates?
Looks better than I thought it would...From previous post....The bus is currently in the Los Angeles area (San Fernando Valley).
She's a beauty, excepting that big bump on the top ;). A 6-71 sitting there in the back like that has to be a mechanic's dream.
How much you asking for her?
Definitely better than most I have drug home.
How much do you want to net out of it ? Sure, you may be able to sell it for more if it runs & has good tires, but how much time & money do you want to put into it ? Looks like the rear duals are on split rims, so you will need new rims as you have much selection for tires.
As for getting a mechanic to it, Ask around at the heavy truck parts houses for suggestions of who to ask. Generally, the older the mechanic, the better off your results will be. ( I got one that had been sitting for over 6 years - a good battery & it started right up like you had just parked it. )
If you just want it gone, there are some good parts on it that will bring some decent prices -
fluted trim pieces between the original windows,
front roof corner marker lights,
front turn signals & headlights,
front bumper & bumperetts,
bay doors,
etc . . .
Good advice from all. Thanks! I have no idea what it's worth over the approximate scrap value at this point. It's not like there is a Blue Book on old buses is there? If I put $2K into it as suggested then I have to learn how to drive it... in LA traffic no less. :) The biggest thing I've ever driven was a split axle small dump truck when I helped a friend tear off his roof and take a load to the dump. And that was over 20 years ago on a Saturday. I'll see if I can talk to some truck places and maybe they'll know someone who would come take a look at it. I did find a book in the bus on understanding diesel engines. It's like a text book. I guess I can read it in my spare time. :D
Your very best advice will come from other GM coach owners who know your bus well. Truck places will not not know very much about it. You need a 2 cycle mechanic that can check it out before any starting attempts are made. The danger of the injector racks being stuck from sitting so long is real. Google "runaway engine" and you will see 2 cycle Detroit's going crazy. If the racks are okay, and you have a charged battery, and oil at the proper level, it will probably start even with the old fuel. The newer diesel can have some ethanol in it that does not age well. If fuel prime is lost, then it would be prudent to change the fuel filters, and have the fuel flushed and bled. If you connect with the right person, it really might not cost much to get it running. I suspect your father had a good running engine, why else would he put up with a non-synchro 4 speed Spicer manual? This is all difficult because you live far away, but when my sons inherit my buses, I would like to think that they would do everything possible to keep them going and give them a good home. A converted bus is not like an old car, it was once a cherished home on wheels that had a sweet running engine that sounds like no other.
Quote from: vmcney on May 19, 2017, 04:44:15 PM
Good advice from all. Thanks! I have no idea what it's worth over the approximate scrap value at this point. It's not like there is a Blue Book on old buses is there? If I put $2K into it as suggested then I have to learn how to drive it... in LA traffic no less. :) The biggest thing I've ever driven was a split axle small dump truck when I helped a friend tear off his roof and take a load to the dump. And that was over 20 years ago on a Saturday. I'll see if I can talk to some truck places and maybe they'll know someone who would come take a look at it. I did find a book in the bus on understanding diesel engines. It's like a text book. I guess I can read it in my spare time. :D
Honestly, bus driving isn't all that hard. I'm a school bus driver. The big things are...
1 know the size of your vehicle. Get a feeling for driving it.
2 the steering wheels being 6-8 feet behind you can take some getting used to. I usually drive a 30 foot conventional bus but occasionally have to drive a 50 foot ward.
3 your biggest problem will be other road users. I saw a class act yesterday. On SC378 which is two lanes in each direction plus a turn lane and it's very busy, some idiot was doing a 3 point turn!
For tyres, get part worn or even part worn remolds. They'll get you where you need to go.
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Quote from: Zephod on May 20, 2017, 03:02:24 AM
Honestly, bus driving isn't all that hard. I'm a school bus driver. The big things are...
1 know the size of your vehicle. Get a feeling for driving it.
2 the steering wheels being 6-8 feet behind you can take some getting used to. I usually drive a 30 foot conventional bus but occasionally have to drive a 50 foot ward.
3 your biggest problem will be other road users. I saw a class act yesterday. On SC378 which is two lanes in each direction plus a turn lane and it's very busy, some idiot was doing a 3 point turn!
For tyres, get part worn or even part worn remolds. They'll get you where you need to go.
Good points. And it's understood that one who is starting out on their first bus drive should keep a strong respect for the "difference" of it all.
And if I were going to try to drive a bus out of LA, I'd start about 11PM, get to the nearest freeway on the largest streets available (even if those largest streets and freeway routes weren't the shortest way to get there). Once out of town, stop at a motel with the largest parking lot you can find and the next morning, and do some maneuvers to get the feel of the bus. And read RJ's writeup on shifting a bus manual transmission (I think it's on here somewhere but I can't find it right now) -- it's gonna take double clutching, not impossible to learn but you need to know the theory behind it and be ready to practice.
Good luck. BH
Holy cow! I looked at some YouTube videos on runaway diesel engines. Scary stuff. I feel sorry for those folks who stand by helpless and watch their engines go up in smoke. Crazy.
It sounds like I need to find a 2-stroke Detroit diesel expert to help me with this. The bus is in the 91342 zip code area. If anyone knows someone near by I'd appreciate the connection.
As far as driving is concerned (once I have it running and everything works of course), I thought a similar thing. Leave town late at night and go out in a low population area someplace and drive it around until I feel comfortable. Double clutching isn't too uncommon for me as I have an old diesel tractor back home that I have to do that with sometimes. It does sound a bit exciting to try driving it.
However, I'm still debating if I should put the time and effort into this or walk away. I really don't want to scrap her though.
Still more to think about.
QuoteIt sounds like I need to find a 2-stroke Detroit diesel expert to help me with this.
Don Fairchild is in Bakersfield and checked a bus for me recently.
Don might do it for you if you schedule it for when he's already heading to LA area.
;D BK ;D
Engines can be stopped fairly readily. On mine it's a case of pulling the fuel cut off toggle while sitting at the driver seat or, if that doesn't work, tweaking the toggle under the hood. A co2 fire extinguisher fired into the air intake will starve the engine of oxygen and stop it. Disconnecting the fuel line helps too if there's no other way. With an electric pump, turning the key off also stops the engine. The governor should stop the engine going over a certain number of revs too.
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Quote from: Zephod on May 20, 2017, 07:02:02 PM
Engines can be stopped fairly readily. On mine it's a case of pulling the fuel cut off toggle while sitting at the driver seat or, if that doesn't work, tweaking the toggle under the hood. A co2 fire extinguisher fired into the air intake will starve the engine of oxygen and stop it. Disconnecting the fuel line helps too if there's no other way. With an electric pump, turning the key off also stops the engine. The governor should stop the engine going over a certain number of revs too.
It's not that simple with an older 2 cycle before the racks were later modified. The only dependable way is to have something solid to block the air intake. A Detroit Diesel will keep on going without fuel if the rack is stuck open by sucking out the lubrication oil. Not many people want to be near an engine that is going 3000 rpm's or more. Go ahead, Google runaway engines and see which ones will come up. It won't be DT 466's that show up. ;)
That's a pretty nice coach. I think it would be sad to see it scrapped. There are worse looking coaches on the road right npw
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on May 20, 2017, 07:55:45 PM
it would be sad to see it scrapped. There are worse looking coaches on the road right npw
Very true
Has anyone come up with a price yet ?
There is risk when putting any good dollars into this bus. As so many know, most of the time more money goes in than is returned. Unless the motor's and transmission's condition can be verified, it's probably worth little once one factors in hauling costs. To get the bus running, either the bus needs to be towed to a shop or mobile service enables mechanics on the clock attempting to get it running. Hard dollars at risk here. To do a road test, more hard dollars for tires. So, after putting in a couple grand at risk, what is the reward potential? That depends on what the coach is worth once its condition is better known. Seems like a risky wager. I'd rather plunk down the 2k on red then a spin of the roulette wheel. A whole lot faster and less work. ;D
If you don't want to be a busnut, just offer it for sale here and on CL and eBay for no more than scrap value, and someone with a 4104 may buy it for parts or to renovate. (Jon, are you interested?) Let the buyer deal with it. Or just donate it to a good home, or maybe the Pacific Bus Museum in Fremont CA could take it - next weekend at our annual Crown shindig I'll see Tom from the PBM, so I could ask him then.
John
Tyres are the killer for most bus projects. We plough hundred or thousands of hours into the project, spend a few grand on buying the bus then a few thousand on our conversions - wood, metal, equipment then baulk at paying $2k every 7 years for decent tyres! I think it's that many bus owners don't realize the costs of owning a bus. 17 gallons of coolant, 24 gallons of engine oil, 20 gallons of transmission fluid, a pair of group 31 batteries at $200 each. And yet people think nothing of a few thousand renovating a perfectly ok kitchen. Go figure!
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After reading all the great advice, and pondering about this for several days, I think I've come to a decision.
Although it's intriguing to consider keeping it and becoming a busnut like my Dad, the reality is I probably won't be able to. I also don't have the means or skills to restore it to its former glory. But I can't bring myself to send it to the scrap yard either.
I think John's last post sounds pretty good to me. I'd really like to see it go to a good home to someone who would appreciate it, so I'll probably sell it for around its scrap value if the new owner can come and take it away. I'll look into the classifieds here and elsewhere.
Thanks to all!
Quote from: vmcney on May 21, 2017, 09:36:32 AM
After reading all the great advice, and pondering about this for several days, I think I've come to a decision.
Although it's intriguing to consider keeping it and becoming a busnut like my Dad, the reality is I probably won't be able to. I also don't have the means or skills to restore it to its former glory. But I can't bring myself to send it to the scrap yard either.
I think John's last post sounds pretty good to me. I'd really like to see it go to a good home to someone who would appreciate it, so I'll probably sell it for around its scrap value if the new owner can come and take it away. I'll look into the classifieds here and elsewhere.
Thanks to all!
Sounds to me like you are way too smart to be a busnut ;)
While some really enjoy this hobby - even the challenges - , this hobby isn't for everyone.
Could you possibly get it running, get tyres on it and try it? You might love it and it's definitely cheaper to park up and sleep in it than to pay for hotel rooms!
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Quote from: vmcney on May 21, 2017, 09:36:32 AM
After reading all the great advice, and pondering about this for several days, I think I've come to a decision.
Although it's intriguing to consider keeping it and becoming a busnut like my Dad, the reality is I probably won't be able to. I also don't have the means or skills to restore it to its former glory. But I can't bring myself to send it to the scrap yard either.
I think John's last post sounds pretty good to me. I'd really like to see it go to a good home to someone who would appreciate it, so I'll probably sell it for around its scrap value if the new owner can come and take it away. I'll look into the classifieds here and elsewhere.
Thanks to all!
Do account that any salvage income needs to be offset by the pretty expensive tow over there. Then you need to make sure your paperwork is in order. Dave just had to dance with the DMV and CHP to get a donor bus certified to be accepted by the salvage yard. You in CA, land of rules and rules and rules. Make sure you can even junk it without a paperwork headache. Good luck.
Quote from: windtrader on May 21, 2017, 02:31:07 PM
Do account that any salvage income needs to be offset by the pretty expensive tow over there. Then you need to make sure your paperwork is in order. Dave just had to dance with the DMV and CHP to get a donor bus certified to be accepted by the salvage yard. You in CA, land of rules and rules and rules. Make sure you can even junk it without a paperwork headache. Good luck.
If works comes to worst, leave it titled to your dad and just walk away denying knowledge.
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Quote from: Zephod on May 21, 2017, 09:14:14 AM
Tyres are the killer for most bus projects. We plough hundred or thousands of hours into the project, spend a few grand on buying the bus then a few thousand on our conversions - wood, metal, equipment then baulk at paying $2k every 7 years for decent tyres! I think it's that many bus owners don't realize the costs of owning a bus. 17 gallons of coolant, 24 gallons of engine oil, 20 gallons of transmission fluid, a pair of group 31 batteries at $200 each. And yet people think nothing of a few thousand renovating a perfectly ok kitchen. Go figure!
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I think some of your gallons are slightly off!
John
7 Gallons of 40 wt oil
24 gallons of coolant
7 gallons of ATF or whatever oil you use in your Allison Automatic
Group 31's NAPA 74.00 each
Inverter 1,700.00
Batteries for house 8 at 102.00 6V US Battery
Tires at 524.00 each
These are just for starters
For value approximation -
Lets say it weighs 24,000 # & scrap is $7.5 per 100 # (prices can fluctuate wildly from day to day, so phone price may not match when you show up ).
That yields $1,800 ( less transportation costs )
I think since all this is new to the OP, he is on the right track to sell it to someone for a fair price.
For $1500, I'd think there is a buyer out there that is looking forward to getting started . . . .
Rushing headfirst into this hobby just because you were given an old bus is probably a good way to be scared off for good! Far better to choose your own time to enter the madness.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on May 21, 2017, 03:23:35 PM
7 Gallons of 40 wt oil
24 gallons of coolant
7 gallons of ATF or whatever oil you use in your Allison Automatic
Group 31's NAPA 74.00 each
Inverter 1,700.00
Batteries for house 8 at 102.00 6V US Battery
Tires at 524.00 each
These are just for starters
Well, with my bus, there's 17 gallons of coolant. Nit sure about oil and tranny fluid.
I have a pair of interstate group 31s. I think they were $375 for the pair. I had to order them and my local Napa was run by idiots that couldn't give a flying fart about anything.
Tyres... been quoted $1200 for all 6 or around $200 each.
House batteries... I have solar charged batteries powering my exhaust and ventilation inlet fans. Small panels and small batteries.
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Bus tires for $200 each is less than my car's tires! What brand and size are they, where are they made, who sells them? However, I'm not sure if I would put any $200 tire on the front!
FYI, NAPA has their own Group 31 batteries. I paid not much over $100 for each of mine a year or so ago. It sounds like you need to find a better NAPA store!
John
Quote from: Iceni John on May 21, 2017, 05:16:37 PM
Bus tires for $200 each is less than my car's tires! What brand and size are they, where are they made, who sells them? However, I'm not sure if I would put any $200 tire on the front!
FYI, NAPA has their own Group 31 batteries. I paid not much over $100 for each of mine a year or so ago. It sounds like you need to find a better NAPA store!
John
I have a commercial truck store not far away. I suspect the tyres are double coin. Size... 10R22.5
Try getting anything out of any specialist place here.... I gave up on the jerks in specialist stores years ago. They're largely minimum wage box shifters when they can be bothered to lift their eyes from their damn pacifiers (cellphones).
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It's going to be a hard sell even to a scrap yard,as most are not equipped with a means of towing or hauling something that large, so they are going to want you to deliver the bus to the scales
good luck
Quote from: bman176 on May 20, 2017, 08:42:52 PM
Has anyone come up with a price yet ?
I'm betting if you offered him 2K, to purchase it "as is" he would probably jump on it everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday.
FWIW
Quote from: John316 on May 22, 2017, 06:21:36 AM
I'm betting if you offered him 2K, to purchase it "as is" he would probably jump on it everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday.
FWIW
;D ;D he would probably take less than that when he finds out how much it will cost him to have it towed or to make it drive able
I think it meets the "Free to good home" status with a promise that it is not going to be scrapped. The bus is restorable condition, or at least saved for part. Even the siding would be wanted by someone. There are two rear end ratios that I know of, but just about everything on the bus is good for parts. Having a place to store it is a big deal.
--Geoff