Three buses on the final short list, all powered by 8V71N. The more comments how slow these are up hills, the more doubt and second thoughts about acquiring a bus with this motor.
I'm sure if asked how many current 8V71N bus owners would swap in a more powerful motor, it'd likely be a universal yes. So, how many feel this motor is severely underpowered and really strongly feel compelled to repower or get a more powerful coach?
thanks
Don you will learn that it is about the Journey and not always about the destination, No seriously! ;D If you are looking for power get a Cummins ISM or even a powerful series 60 tuned up to what 400HP. CAT or something newer that will run cooler than a DD 2 stroke. Get a Turbo-ed one though if you like to climb hills. Just sayin........ :o
Dave
Hi Dave,
"...you will learn that it is about the Journey and not always about the destination".
Yeah, right. This is the mantra of all 8V71N bus owners. Sit back and enjoy the scenery.
Those running 400-500HP buses are saying the journey is nice but sure feels better to get to the destination in half the time. LOL.
All was fine with the enjoy the view crowd but the recent comments about hating the slow ride got me with second thoughts.
The reality is based on my budget for this "hobby", the only practical option is an 8V71N.
Take care , don
LOL then Let the Journey begin.
By car we can rush to AZ down I-5, 58 40 95 to Quartzite in 1.5 days by car or we take three days in the Bus. We stopped to look at the planes at aero express way in Mojave CA and see friends, help others Tear walls out of their Bus and then went up the hill to a nice RV resort for a week, went over to Laughlin Nevada had some good food. We stop along the way to take pictures of the Dessert and wild flowers everywhere. Then we moseyed into to Quartszite to the rally for 14 days.
We took another route home and did that in 4 days. We were gone a little over a month. We try not to go over our 300 mile a day limit otherwise you miss stuff. We stop and eat along the way generally in the bus... Our days of rushing somewhere just to get there are over...
Dave ;D
Quote from: windtrader on May 06, 2017, 09:48:29 PM
Hi Dave,
"...you will learn that it is about the Journey and not always about the destination".
Yeah, right. This is the mantra of all 8V71N bus owners. Sit back and enjoy the scenery.
Those running 400-500HP buses are saying the journey is nice but sure feels better to get to the destination in half the time. LOL.
All was fine with the enjoy the view crowd but the recent comments about hating the slow ride got me with second thoughts.
The reality is based on my budget for this "hobby", the only practical option is an 8V71N.
Take care , don
Bought my bus from the widow of the previous owner, she showed me 4 speeding tickets he go on the interstate for doing 85-90mph. With the right tires and a well running 8v71n with the 4spd standard you dont have to be caught in the slow lane... Ive only had it a few weeks, but the trip home was 68-70 no issues for 200 miles.
Augie,
Not concerned about the flats. Living in NorCal means Mountains with a capital M getting out of state. North, South, and East all have some serious climbs. Maybe an extra hour here or there is chump change in the grand scheme of things, ala Dave5C providing the real wisdom of travel by bus. When he says journey he really does spell it with a J. The J is the trip. OK. Back to making a deal. :)
After driving my 5C home to Pa from Az I decided the stick had to go. If the stick was going so was the 8v71 a lot of work but glad I did. The torque on the 4 stroke on the hills is great.
The 8v71 is not a race horse but has been getting buses across the USA since 1958,it will get you there and back home.
Most were 260 to 270 hp.It is the hp to weight ratio a 8v71 would be useless in the newer 50,000 lbs buses of today.
Dave and RJ enjoy their buses with the 6v71 and probably 200 hp tops. 2 things affect the N/A 8v71 or any 71 N/A engine that is altitude and extreme desert temperatures the hp and torque drops like a rock so you change gears
What do you want ?
It is all a compromise.
I wanted higher HP & an automatic - in my price range, that meant an 8V92T with an 740 allison.
With mine, at full power & a properly maintained cooling system, the engine temp is 125 above ambient
The age old problem,,,"speed costs money,,how fast do you want to go??>>>Dan
I guess if you don't mind shifting and crawling up mountains and having all the trucks pass you on the way up, a stock 4106 is okay. When I pass a old bus on a hill I can hear their engine roaring at Max rpm and I'm doing 15-20 mph faster than they are.
I started with 270 HP in my RTS and upgraded to 350 HP. What a huge difference!!
--Geoff
Quote from: kyle4501 on May 07, 2017, 06:30:28 AM
What do you want ?
It is all a compromise.
I wanted higher HP & an automatic - in my price range, that meant an 8V92T with an 740 allison.
With mine, at full power & a properly maintained cooling system, the engine temp is 125 above ambient
"125 (degrees) above ambient" -- that is something Detroit used to say but it never made any sense to me. Ambient temperature is defined as the current outside temperature. So as long as it is no more than 75f outside you can add the 125 degrees and you are at 200f. If it is 90 degrees outside that formula would put you at 215f, which is far too hot for a Detroit engine. Am I doing something wrong or is this formula flawed?
--Geoff
NOT a bad decision. I can even provide reasons :)
The 8V71 is a mechanical motor. IF something breaks...you fix it without having to pay a fortune for someone to read a code.
My speedometer stops at 85mph. I have had it buried more than I should admit. I have had friends behind me call me and ask me if 92mph would get me
.a ticket on I95 or I64.
I have been up and down mountains...I pass the trucks and some cars.
I have never...not one time...seen any smoke of any color whatsoever...even when towing the Jeep, truck or trailer.
I have never had the temp even close to overheated.
In a MC8...I have room in the engine compartment if I need to reach something.
But most importantly, after all of the research you have done, don't second guess yourself. I would say that regardless of the power plant you choose.
It looks like your engine is rebuilt and the odds are the timing was advanced and N65 injectors installed. This would put you at 304 HP vrs. a stock 4106 8V71 with N60 injectors and 277 HP. Or do you have a turbo with 350 HP?
--Geoff
Quote from: daddysgirl li :)nk=topic=31786.msg357444#msg357444 date=1494168721
NOT a bad decision. I can even provide reasons :)
The 8V71 is a mechanical motor. IF something breaks...you fix it without having to pay a fortune for someone to read a code.
My speedometer stops at 85mph. I have had it buried more than I should admit. I have had friends behind me call me and ask me if 92mph would get me
.a ticket on I95 or I64.
I have been up and down mountains...I pass the trucks and some cars.
I have never...not one time...seen any smoke of any color whatsoever...even when towing the Jeep, truck or trailer.
I have never had the temp even close to overheated.
In a MC8...I have room in the engine compartment if I need to reach something.
But most importantly, after all of the research you have done, don't second guess yourself. I would say that regardless of the power plant you choose.
Don -
Some perspective for you: When I was in the charter business back in the late '70s > late '80s, the majority of the fleet were powered by 275 hp 8V71Ns, and the running time from Fresno > Las Vegas was eight hours. Just before I left the company, we got two MCI 102A3s, both with 400 hp 8V92TAs. That engine cut the run time to Las Vegas by one hour - seven vs eight. It only shaved 15 minutes off the run time to Disneyland from Fresno, and just 10 minutes into The City. No difference in the run time for field trips to Sacratomato since it was all flat the whole way.
We just completed a 12,000 mile round trip to FL from WA with a 6V71 in my MCI, which you've seen. Sure, we were down to 25-30 mph on some grades as we went east and west, but we still averaged 50mph for the entire trip because the majority of the time we were rolling along in high gear at 60-62 mph, where my coach is happiest (because of it's rear axle gearing.) Dave's 5C has the same powertrain, so our comments echo each other.
I'd love to have the a 350 hp 6V92T like Geoff has in his RTS, but my engine compartment won't allow it w/o some serious work to both the engine's turbo location and cooling system. The major bonus, however, would be the ability to change the rear axle ratio from 4.11:1 to the 3.36:1 pumpkin I have in my 2nd MC-5C, thus lower rpm at any given speed = longer engine life. But in the meantime, it ain't broke, so I ain't gonna fix it!
Dave & Clifford -
While working on the bathroom remodel this week, I opened the engine hatch on the engine hump and found an engine spec sticker on the LH valve cover - something that I didn't see from the engine compartment. I couldn't see the injector size spec, but the sticker says "ADV. HP 250 AT 2300 RPM." I think that's got to be hp on a dyno, not installed!
Geoff -
The 4106s in our fleet would climb the Grapevine at 45 mph with 40 passengers, but then again, they're pretty light to begin with. The MCIs, with the exception of the A's, were all sitting on the governor in 2nd gear at 30 mph - but that was the deal back then, wasn't it?
Oh, and while I'm thinking of it, I do hope your back gets better.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
It make no difference HP is for race cars, torque is needed for buses and all hp rating are at sea level on a old Detroit the higher in altitude the less you have
As I've said before, turboing an 8V-71 REALLY wakes it up. Don Fairchild turbo'd mine, we kept the same pistons and went with 7G75 injectors. With the custom air to air intercooler, bigger radiator, turbo muffler, bigger air cleaner, auxiliary transmission cooler, went from 300hp with 800lb/ft torque (N65 injectors) to 375hp with 1125lb/ft torque. If you rebuild an 8V-71 to turbo specs, 7G80 injectors will get 400hp and 1,200lb/ft torque-which was the last horsepower rating Detroit had on it's 8V-71TA. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on May 07, 2017, 09:04:53 AM
As I've said before, turboing an 8V-71 REALLY wakes it up. Don Fairchild turbo'd mine, we kept the same pistons and went with 7G75 injectors. With the custom air to air intercooler, bigger radiator, turbo muffler, bigger air cleaner, auxiliary transmission cooler, went from 300hp with 800lb/ft torque (N65 injectors) to 375hp with 1125lb/ft torque. If you rebuild an 8V-71 to turbo specs, 7G80 injectors will get 400hp and 1,200lb/ft torque-which was the last horsepower rating Detroit had on it's 8V-71TA. Good Luck, TomC
Yep and you get the same torque from a 6v92 with 350 hp
It's all a question of cost. If all you can afford is a stock 8V71N that runs well, it will get you there a little slower than the latest and greatest, but it will be simpler to maintain, and will sound cool. In flat land running there won't be much difference, but there are limits to what you can do in the mountains. I have been on local routes out west that got me down to first gear wondering if I was going to make it over the top, so having a tiny bit extra power might be nice if you are adventurous.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on May 07, 2017, 09:31:17 AM
It's all a question of cost. If all you can afford is a stock 8V71N that runs well, it will get you there a little slower than the latest and greatest, but it will be simpler to maintain, and will sound cool. In flat land running there won't be much difference, but there are limits to what you can do in the mountains. I have been on local routes out west that got me down to first gear wondering if I was going to make it over the top, so having a tiny bit extra power might be nice if you are adventurous.
So true I have saw buses in Colorado with 8v71N/A engines at over 9000 ft they just could not make it to the 9800 ft level with plenty of black smoke and going no where
Quote from: luvrbus on May 07, 2017, 09:10:16 AM
Yep and you get the same torque from a 6v92 with 350 hp
Tom is happy with his souped-up engine, but changing out to a 6V92TA @ 350 HP would of been cheaper.
--Geoff
Back in the 70s and 80s, all we had was 8V71N engines with 4 speed manual transmissions. We drove them everywhere in the Canadian Rockies, slowly by today's standards, but we got where we needed to go, loaded like rented mules.
A 8V71 will still get you around today.
A 6V92TA like I have in my 5C is a little faster (350 hp, 1050 lb/ft). Enough to pass most trucks up the hills. And not affected by altitude.
This weekend, I am driving a MCI DL3 with DD Series 60 12.7 liter and Allison B500. Hauls @$#. Goes up the hills with the cars. Shifts through the gears without help, unlike an HT740 that you have to shift manually so it doesn't bog down.
They are all available on the used market. You get what you pay for. But don't be afraid of the 8V71. If in good shape, it is a great engine that will get you there and back. And sound a lot nicer than a S60...
JC
Thanks y'all for your comments, smashed the creepy doubt about the 8v71N motor!
Clifford - That was might thought, these things were the workhorse in the day shuttling passengers from coast to coast. Maybe that was OK in the day when a daily newspaper was OK too. Now, if response is not received in seconds, everyone is all freaked out. I'm hearing they are going to wire a smarthphone directly to your brains so you get instant responses.
Kyle - I get the compromise formula. My first choice is a mid 90's MCI Series 60, plenty of time and money to do a custom conversion. Compromise = 60-70's already converted coach. Not saying anything negative, just quite a compromise.
Utah - Yep, performance costs.
Daddysgirl, LostAgain, etal. - Thanks for the reassuring words.
Geoff/TomC - Like Utah says - More power can do = more $$$. Back to Kyle's "It's all a compromise" I've heard the numbers in doing a TA upgrade on the 71. Entirely different conversation and analysis with that much different budget.
RJ - If folks find a 6v71 makes the grade so to speak, it'll be like the old days when we cruised all over in a VW bus, often chugging up in the slow lane. Been there, done that! LOL. And we always very much enjoyed the journeys and the destination!. And no A/C to boot.
DoubleEagle - Hey, as long as it gets over the top, I'll be happy. Just plan on watching an extra hour of Fox News while on the grade. JK.
Quote from: Geoff on May 07, 2017, 07:48:56 AM
"125 (degrees) above ambient" -- that is something Detroit used to say but it never made any sense to me. Ambient temperature is defined as the current outside temperature. So as long as it is no more than 75f outside you can add the 125 degrees and you are at 200f. If it is 90 degrees outside that formula would put you at 215f, which is far too hot for a Detroit engine. Am I doing something wrong or is this formula flawed?
--Geoff
Nope, the formula isn't flawed, it is a useful diagnostic tool.
If you are having cooling issues below 80 F, there is a problem with the cooling system.
However, if you are having cooling issues only when it is above 80 F and you are at full throttle, the solution is as simple as reducing how much power you are using.
I suppose additional cooling capacity could be added to decrease the temp rise above ambient. But, I don't see a need to do that since 190 is as high as I have seen mine get. I may reconsider if I have to deal with any real grades . . . . . .
I'm sorry, but I don't see it as useful for anything. The original question to "the formula" was "How hot can you let your Detroit get before it's time to stop?".
--Geoff
Quote from: kyle4501 on May 07, 2017, 05:18:23 PM
Nope, the formula isn't flawed, it is a useful diagnostic tool.
If you are having cooling issues below 80 F, there is a problem with the cooling system.
However, if you are having cooling issues only when it is above 80 F and you are at full throttle, the solution is as simple as reducing how much power you are using.
I suppose additional cooling capacity could be added to decrease the temp rise above ambient. But, I don't see a need to do that since 190 is as high as I have seen mine get. I may reconsider if I have to deal with any real grades . . . . . .
Quote from: windtrader on May 07, 2017, 11:02:12 AM
DoubleEagle - Hey, as long as it gets over the top, I'll be happy. Just plan on watching an extra hour of Fox News while on the grade. JK.
I should also mention that there are some grades that the 8V71N can barely climb in 1st gear with the 4 speed Spicer. For instance, the steep grade to the entrance of the Crazy Horse Monument in South Dakota (elevation about 6000 ft.). When I went there, I was loaded with extra fuel and water pulling a 4X4 (Model 05 Eagle), and I was steadily going down through the gears to 1st. There were a couple cars ahead of me, and if either one stopped or slowed down I would not have made it. In 1st I was able to go up to governor (2050) at first, but the rpm's kept going down to the point of lugging when I finally made the turn at the top to the parking lot. If the turn had been another 50 ft up, I do not think I would have made it. I would have had to unhook the 4X4, drain water out, throw passengers off, put heavy tools in the 4X4, and then back down the mountain to make another run at it. Trying to restart in the same spot after stopping would have fried the clutch. An Allison HT740 automatic would probably have done alright. Once you venture off Interstates with known grades, you have to know your limitations. ;)
Quote from: Geoff on May 07, 2017, 06:45:09 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't see it as useful for anything. The original question to "the formula" was "How hot can you let your Detroit get before it's time to stop?".
--Geoff
Some say water temp of 210F will kill it.
To me, it is useful to correlate ambient temp to potential overheating.
So many have overheating issues & don't know why or where to start - or just assume that that is the way it is. Knowing what the capacity of the cooling system is ( should be ) would be very useful information if one is having temperature issues, but that is just my opinion.
I wasn't clear, this is "the formula" that Newell supplied with my coach when it was new. According to Newell, it was the result of extensive testing with Detroit diesel. So, for me, it is usefull to know the heat rejection capacity of the cooling system for a 475HP 8v92 as designed by Newell. I suspect that the 125F temp rise was a compromise of radiator capacity vs cost vs space available.
I was only trying to make the point that there is a limit to any cooling system. Only testing will reveal what the steady state full load temp rise is in any given system.
All bets are off for customized systems that have not been tested as such. Same goes for any system that has not had proper maintenance.
It really does come down to what we each individually want, can afford, and in the end are willing to live with. Me, I'll be happy to have our families 3751 w/6-71 back on the road and enjoy it in the speed and parameters that some great engineers designed it to operate within. I'm content to see the world thru the windshield at a slower speed and maybe experience a little bit more of that era. In my book faster is not always better. 8v71Nat were a great engine. Sure T's and TA's have more power, but nothing sounds like an N engine in the exhaust. Welcome to the world of buses and many differing opinions from a lot of great folks. ;)
2xEagle - At this point, it'll be at the start a life with an 8V71N as that is the plant in the bus conversions for my budget. Might there be a 1000+ ft/lb. torque mill in the future, sure but who knows what the destiny of ones journey of life.
@easystreet - Thanks for the perspective, one which I must prescribe to =enjoy the journey, ala Dave5c and others.
I don't know.... I have driven my bus in Oregon and have been down to 1st gear in a couple of spots in the steep mountains. Never under 10-15 mph but still, that is with 350HP and 1025 ft lbs of torque and a 32-34,000 lb coach.
--Geoff
Quote from: Geoff on May 08, 2017, 06:36:01 AM
I don't know.... I have driven my bus in Oregon and have been down to 1st gear in a couple of spots in the steep mountains. Never under 10-15 mph but still, that is with 350HP and 1025 ft lbs of torque and a 32-34,000 lb coach.
--Geoff
Is that with a 6V92, Geoff?
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on May 08, 2017, 06:46:58 AM
Is that with a 6V92, Geoff?
Yes, 6V92TA, 9G90 injectors, 350 HP. A nice, little workhorse. V730 and 4:10 gears.
--Geoff
Quote from: Geoff on May 08, 2017, 07:05:52 AM
Yes, 6V92TA, 9G90 injectors, 350 HP. A nice, little workhorse. V730 and 4:10 gears.
--Geoff
Sure sounds like a good workhorse. Does the V730 lockup at 1:1? What's "best" cruise with the 4:10 rear?
The V730 torque converter locks up in first gear, and the final drive is 3rd gear that has a .875 overdrive. It will do 80 mph@2350 rpm's with the 4:10 rear gears. The "best cruise" for fuel economy is 1800 rpms, which is 62 mph, but it is very hard to drive the bus that slow with 70-75 mph speed limits. I've been getting 8 mpg keeping up with traffic so that's good enough for me.
BTW, an 8V71TA @375 HP only gets 5-6 mpg, which is the same as an 8V92TA @500 HP.
--Geoff
Don't care how fast I am going when I get to the top as long as it is not overheating I am good. Slower speeds I can enjoy the view.
I love my 500hp turbocharged 8v92 and I'll never look back.
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I feel a lot better knowing what to expect now. Sucking fumes from all you while I'll be crawling and creeping in the slow lane, "enjoying " the scenery. Lol
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Quote from: windtrader on May 09, 2017, 10:22:12 AM
I feel a lot better knowing what to expect now. Sucking fumes from all you while I'll be crawling and creeping in the slow lane, "enjoying " the scenery. Lol
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When you're in the slow lane climbing a hill you aren't watching the scenery, you are watching your mirrors as the trucks and cars try to get around you as you are creating a bottleneck and hope nobody gets in an accident!! It is quite a scene when the cars want to go 70 mph and they run up to a truck that suddenly changes lanes in front of them to pass another truck going 15-20 mph or an old bus going 5 mph.
--Geoff
I'm such a sad geek- I was curious about quantifying the performance of my MC5 without wrecking the actual vehicle.
I have a medium fidelity vehicle simulation package- that has proven VERY accurate for my 80s BMW M6, my Porsche 993 turbo and other classics with well verified performance figures documented. I've also used it with a lot of success simulating the performance and fuel economy of a Navistar International Pro Star fitted with the Maxxforce 13- verified to measurement data.
So I made some assumptions about the tyre coefficient of friction (Mu) for a commercial vehicle and for the drag coefficient and ran the simulation for my Bus.
The top speeds in gears tallied up to what I get on road - 17, 31, 54, 74 mph respectively assuming a 1900 rpm change up point- so this gives me confidence. this is with the 3.33 rear end I have.
the 0-60mph is showed to be just under a minute (49 seconds whether a slip start or a idle start),
Top speed is shown to be around 75 mph. That seems a little conservative.
This is assuming use of the 65 injectors to get 304 bhp. Mines actually around 280 with the C60s.
I did a run with an 8v92 TA torque curve- tuned to get around 470 bhp. This makes a massive difference and gets to 60 mph is around 22 seconds and a top speed above 90 mph-assuming the same gearing.
I've heard it said that the MC5 is the hotrod of the bunch because its lighter. I dread to think how the Mc8 with 8v71 NA accelerates!
On the road my bus feels pretty nippy, but a couple of weeks ago I was towing my BMW on a trailer- and although the top speed only fell to 72 mph it didn't feel too spritely!
I pulled Tioga Pass into Yosemite to Tuolemne Valley from Lee Vining pulling a 16 foot trailer loaded with my 8v71N no jakes. Up and down.
yes I saw 22mph. AND almost 11000ft. and 2-3 mpg :)
https://www.flattestroute.com/?from=Lee+Vining%2C+CA%2C+United+States&to=TUOLUMNE+VALLEY&travelMode=Bicycling&measurementMode=miles (https://www.flattestroute.com/?from=Lee+Vining%2C+CA%2C+United+States&to=TUOLUMNE+VALLEY&travelMode=Bicycling&measurementMode=miles)
and i also did it on 120.
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 09, 2017, 04:36:27 PM
I pulled Tioga Pass into Yosemite to Tuolemne Valley from Lee Vining pulling a 16 foot trailer loaded with my 8v71N no jakes. Up and down.
yes I saw 22mph. AND almost 11000ft. and 2-3 mpg :)
https://www.flattestroute.com/?from=Lee+Vining%2C+CA%2C+United+States&to=TUOLUMNE+VALLEY&travelMode=Bicycling&measurementMode=miles (https://www.flattestroute.com/?from=Lee+Vining%2C+CA%2C+United+States&to=TUOLUMNE+VALLEY&travelMode=Bicycling&measurementMode=miles)
and i also did it on 120.
WOW! So many different experiences. That's one major torture test. Being in the Bay Area, that's a route I'd likely take bout the reverse. Thanks
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Don--
I am from the SF Bay Area and go back and forth from Arizona all the time. Plus when I lived in Vallejo, CA, I can verify your earlier statement that any direction you take out of state is going to be a climb up a mountain. What I wrote earlier about "climbing up a hill" in an old, underpowered bus is exactly true.
--Geoff
Geoff,
Well all I can do is say I've warned plenty about a non turbo 8V71 so expect a slow slog up the hills/ There really nothing more I can do given the tradeoffs and limited budget for this hobby. I'm mentally prepared for the snail's pace up the bigger grades, that's all I can do on this first trip around the busnut carousel. I have the budget to get a Series 60 bus but it would be an empty shell. The compromise is a 8V71 that is fully converted and ready to go for the same $. Tradeoffs, tradeoffs, what ya goin do?
Don also you might want Jake's for your speed down the hills..... :D
For most of us, we do the best we can with what we have. Drive train swaps are very expensive. We did get rid of the Spicer for an Allison, which was a wonderful upgrade. At the time we did that, we probably could have gotten a used 6V92/740 package rather than the rebuilt 647 for within the same price range. Looking back, I often think we should have. Of course, if we did and the used package failed, we would not have been that happy.
The issue of 8V71 verses a more powerful engine is similar to the manual verses the automatic transmission question. Although some are happy enough with the manual transmission, you will find that transmission swaps are always from manual to auto, never the other way. That is really telling about which is preferable. Similarly, I have never heard of anyone doing an engine swap for less power or even expressing such a desire. If I were to buy another bus, I would go for the strongest, most modern engine I could afford. So, If you are buying a bus with an 8V71 because that is what you can afford, go ahead and enjoy it. As many have said, and you will manage fine. But you will be happier with one that can pull a hill at a more reasonable speed. If you are a person that thinks that crawling up a grade is the best time to enjoy scenery, you can still go as slow as you want.
I am not going to argue for whether more power or
Less power is desirable, but I will say that I know for a fact based on your price range, that if you're patient you absolutely can find a nicely converted coach with a turbocharged 6v92 in it. Don and I have had some private conversations and I know if he can keep searching and hold out, he can and will find a turbo charged coach that is already nicely converted in his price range. And that would be my advice.
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Quote from: Lin on May 10, 2017, 09:46:33 AM
The issue of 8V71 verses a more powerful engine is similar to the manual verses the automatic transmission question. Although some are happy enough with the manual transmission, you will find that transmission swaps are always from manual to auto, never the other way. That is really telling about which is preferable.
I dont believe you can make this generalization. Most who are swapping to an auto are getting on in years. this isnt a knock, but rather the truth. A manual, at least the ones being discussed, gets better MPG than the auto, but requires less work to drive. Im willing to put in the work, aka the Manual is better IMHO.
So unless you qualify your statement with bounds, it is false.
I have a 1989 Prevost with the 8V92 with the six speed standard, would an auto be nice, sure. But I don't have an ecm to worry about, it seems that everyone is always having issues with ecu's so I will just enjoy my electronic free standard. My wife always tells me I am grinding gears at times, I tell her if I round sharp edges off it will slip into gear easier. Wait and the right bus will come along.
Automatic have better start ability than a manual transmission and not has hard on the engine crankshaft bearings, and mileage only falls off in city driving IMO the auto is worth giving up maybe 1 mpg
the old horse power and torque problem . I started with a mci 102c3 with a 6v92ta set at 270 hp had it rebuilt ( out of frame ) then had it turned up to 350 hp wow that was nice . then got a deal on a rv with 550 hp with over 1800 lbs of torque ..... all hills are now flat now . would I go back .. no way
happy happy happy !
take your time the deals are out there
dave
Quote from: scanzel on May 10, 2017, 11:40:24 AM
My wife always tells me I am grinding gears at times, I tell her if I round sharp edges off it will slip into gear easier.
Maybe, but if you chip off a piece of a gear tooth and it gets between two gears, you won't be able to hide the noise from your wife, and it might not slip into gear again. ;)
No free lunch?
All that hill climbing power burns fuel hard?
My 8V71/HT740 climbed Fancy Gap on I77 in VA at 43-45 mph in 3rd gear.
Back a while ago, a new MCI Renaissance EL3 with S60 and B500 World auto, I climbed it at 50 mph, 4th or 5th gear, didn't matter.
6V92 Turbo (any turbo) will be nice in higher west coast elevations, but trying to squirt out into traffic from a stop, the 8V71 launches stronger.
Are you buying the coach to camp in, or to drive around?
It costs large in energy to make a coach keep up with the cars... and then it still won't climb for you the way you thought it should...
Take whatever engine comes in the coach that will serve your camping needs...?
Take whatever coach comes with the drivetrain that your driving needs dictate...?
There's nothing wrong with an 8V71, and as a bonus, it won't care about EMP, natural or man-made?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Patience will be rewarded.
Most are happiest with more power than you need & an automatic.
Not as big of a crowd looking for mechanical 8v92's. 1988 was the first year for computer control on the 8v92, so the coaches with mechanical engines will likely have a dated interior . . . . .
Lucky for me, I like the dated interior in mine. ;D
buswarrior brings up some excellent points. Fuel mileage is not that big of a deal to me, not when compared to the comfort of driving it. 8)
melting an 8V92 pulling grades out west is a very easy thing to do...at best the cooling systems are the weak link...
sure there are hills back east.
but they ain't the Rockies.
i would be more concerned about a 35 year old cooling system than any other system on a coach.
if it doesn't have an over temp - low coolant shut down i would be very hesitant. you never know how close it has come to a melt.
notice i did not say warning buzzer light system.
i want a shut down. in the middle of a 6 lane interstate, before i would do without it.
Our intended use is for recreational/seasonal getaway use, so the amount of time spent slogging up long grades is pretty minimal overall. It's not like we are putting lots of miles on travelling between trade/festival shows on a regular and ongoing basis.
RJ and others have pointed out the actual additional time is really not that much so an 8V92TA or Series 60 motor would be super, doing the putt-putt from time to time is part of the compromise.
Waiting for a solid converted coach like a 102x3 with a 92 or 50 series motor come to market at a fair price might be awhile. Over the past few months, either I've not been looking well enough and missing them or it seems there are far fewer of those late 80's - early 90's coming on.
I do know the mid 90's Series 60 coaches sell at 15k or so with seats and fully converted ones seem way over my limit, no surprise. The DDEC is a positive to me. I'm a tech guy anyway but like the more advanced features and logging. Maybe it's a hassle to get to a reader but it seems there is a lot of info in there to better understand what is going on.
Scott and others who have been around offer encouragement to sit on the wallet a bit longer. I'll do a full scan of what's been offered again looking for more powerful converted coaches.
Thanks again for all the support here.
Maybe it's a hassle to get to a reader but it seems there is a lot of info in there to better understand what is going on.
LOL Pro/Link hand held readers and the software is going away, what is out there now for sale is all there is.All the manufactures are going to the Link System that is the great computer in the sky one code system and $600.00 a year to access.It is already here you can buy a some models of Pro/Link for as little as 50 bucks now.We have enough outlaws to keep our electronic buses going though for several years IMO ;D
Quote from: luvrbus on May 11, 2017, 06:17:20 AM
Maybe it's a hassle to get to a reader but it seems there is a lot of info in there to better understand what is going on.
LOL Pro/Link hand held readers and the software is going away, what is out there now for sale is all there is.All the manufactures are going to the Link System that is the great computer in the sky one code system and $600.00 a year to access.It is already here you can buy a some models of Pro/Link for as little as 50 bucks now.We have enough outlaws to keep our electronic buses going though for several years IMO ;D
I spoke to a small tour/charter operator who gave me the idea to use a local guy to get the log dumped for a small fee.
But I stopped researching the ECU like DDEC 3/4 on Series 60 when I got off the DIY conversation option.
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
I think you talked to Dave from SF who is having an engine swapped at Bay Cities Diesel in Benicia. He just posted that he is giving away his donor bus. So here is a free shell that you could spend your money on the repower of your choice. Buy a transit bus for a modern powertrain with all the wiring and components you need. But, this is probably overwhelming.
--Geoff
I've been convinced completely that starting with an already converted is the right path for me. Realistically, there is not enough time, energy, and money to get a fully converted coach on the road in an acceptable timeframe. The online groups have provided the wisdom to take the practical path to getting on the road with a solid and fully functional coach. If I do get bit really hard later, a ground up conversion project might work out in parallel with another roadworthy coach but way too much to consider right now.
I did contact Dave as he is so close and offered some free hands to wrench some parts off just to get up close and dirty with these beasts. He said next week was the timeframe for the coach to get to Benicia. He implied there wasn't much time so not sure if I can get over there in his window.
Hey, I'm going to be in Vallejo next week. I'll try to stop by and see what is happening.
--Geoff
Cool! Let's make the connection. I have one commitment mid next week. Other than that free to meet
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Send me a PM with your phone number and we can work it out. I am not available the 17th.
--Geoff
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 10, 2017, 08:27:39 PM
i would be more concerned about a 35 year old cooling system than any other system on a coach.
if it doesn't have an over temp - low coolant shut down i would be very hesitant. you never know how close it has come to a melt.
notice i did not say warning buzzer light system.
i want a shut down. in the middle of a 6 lane interstate, before i would do without it.
You are correct, the cooling system is most definitely one of the first things to ensure is up to the task. Many units have upgraded the power, but not the cooling system. Some units are also limited on how much radiator can be utilized.
Warning lights & buzzers are merely tools, when used used properly, they will save time & money. Used improperly . . . . you can't fix stupid. ;)
Since over 210 F is not good for the engine, I like my lights going off at 200F & a buzzer at 205F. That should
usually provide plenty of time to determine the safest action without blocking travel lanes. ( Ever seen what a semi can to to a vehicle stopped in the travel lane? I'd rather replace the engine. )
With proper warning lights/ buzzers, there is no excuse for a shutdown to stop you in the middle of the road (except for a catastrophic failure).
I'm not inclined to repower up in hp/torque. It just seems like the value option is to get another coach already designed and built with the plant you desire. That way all the support systems are designed for that amount of power/torque/heat/stress etc.
All the talk about heat does anyone know the formula DD uses for the BTU heat rejection on a 2 stroke.I have it some where I am going to see if I can find it I recall it being 3 times more than a 60 series with the same hp
Don, don't be intimidated by DDEC. I was initially, but then I realized that a scanner would let you troubleshoot so much easier than with a MUI engine. Last year I bought a Pro-Link 9000 scanner for 1992 GM cars, complete with printer and cables and a case, for only $99, and a brand-new unused DDEC II/III cartridge for just over $100 including its manual. So for just over $200 I can now read my engine and clear any codes. The reason I bought a Pro-Link for GM cars is because it uses the same 12-pin connector as my bus's diagnostic port, avoiding the need to buy a separate adapter for $50. These scanners and cartridges are always on eBay for cheap.
John
Quote from: luvrbus on May 11, 2017, 08:18:09 PM
All the talk about heat does anyone know the formula DD uses for the BTU heat rejection on a 2 stroke.I have it some where I am going to see if I can find it I recall it being 3 times more than a 60 series with the same hp
I saw that once upon a time when I was looking, but I have not been able to find it since owning a 8V92t.
Would like to have that info, would be nice to see how much more radiator I need to get the stabilized engine temp at full power to 100F above ambient.
a scanner would let you troubleshoot so much easier than with a MUI engine. ??? ::) ???
air,fuel,compression....what else is there ?
unless that gizmo monitors crank thrust :)
Geoff
Have you ever had your Coach through Citrus Heights, CA a few years ago. I saw one that looked like yours. It was pretty nice. Grey and black
Dave
Yes, it was probably me. My wife's sister lives in Citrus Heights and we have been staying outside her house for several years. Now they passed a new ordinance that you can't park a motorhome for more than 24hrs. on the street so I am having to park in Roseville at my brother-in-laws shop. We are going to be in Roseville next week but I won't be in my bus.
--Geoff
Yep told the wife it looked like your coach but I said it can't be because he lives in Arizona unless he is driving through or something like that. They got us on that to in CH so we put in our drive which was enough for 3 buses and then they told me it had to be behind a fence. I made a section of 6 foot high by 8 feet wide fence on rollers and just rolled it in front of our Bus when we were home. Ticked them off but we were legal according to their own rules, LOL
Then we sold our house and went on the road. We live about 6 months in West Roseville out where the old Ranches are off Baseline on a friends Ranch we help him with when we are home.
Dave
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 12, 2017, 08:53:38 AM
a scanner would let you troubleshoot so much easier than with a MUI engine. ??? ::) ???
air,fuel,compression....what else is there ?
unless that gizmo monitors crank thrust :)
You can selectively cut out individual fuel injectors (useful if you think an injector is bad but don't know which one, or if you like to hear what a 5V92 sounds like), you can cross-check the accuracy of your boost and coolant temperature gauges and tachometer, you can check the fuel pressure (useful if you think your fuel filters are getting constipated), and a veritable cornucopia of other fun and exciting things. I also could activate my cruise control if I so wished, but because I think cruise control is the invention of the devil I won't be doing that, ever!
Yes, I know even a DDEC engine is essentially still a mechanical engine, just with some extra diagnostic and control options. DDEC is simply another tool in my toolbox.
John
Quote from: Iceni John on May 12, 2017, 08:02:12 PM
I think cruise control is the invention of the devil
John
That may be so, but that devil sure has saved me from a bunch of speeding tickets. ;D
got my vote on cruse control . I can not drive anything with out . with the DDEC when I had my hp turned up from 277 hp to 350 hp they did it all on a lap top and it only took 10 minutes with no other adjustments . got to love that
dave
The Pro/Link is a valuable tool for a DDEC but trust me they are not a magic wand you can just wave and the problems go away in some cases they are useless as hell
Quote from: luvrbus on May 13, 2017, 06:25:38 AM
The Pro/Link is a valuable tool for a DDEC but trust me they are not a magic wand you can just wave and the problems go away in some cases they are useless as hell
yuuuuppp :) that's when you pray for a mechanic and not a tech...