Every one needs to check the difference between a converted bus and a S&S.
A good friend had a freight liner coach and lost a left front tire on 85 south in SC.
Check the channel 9 news in Charlotte nc.
Jack Conrad lost a front tire on the Qrange Blossom Special
Not much left of the freight liner coach
not much left of Jack's front tire.
The 2 in the Freight-liner were special friends and dirt-bike riders of mine.
uncle ned
I'm so sorry to hear about your friend and his son, Ned. That is tragic.
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/fatal-wreck-backs-up-traffic-on-i-77/506008646 (http://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/fatal-wreck-backs-up-traffic-on-i-77/506008646)
How can we convince folks that brag about driving cross country on their 17 year old tires of the danger they are to themselves and others? At the mere suggestion our tires are dangerous after 6 or 7 years a flood of anecdotes about driving on old tires will fill the forum.
The 6-7 year tire life is for cars and pick ups. Truck and bus tires last 10 years.
--Geoff
Geoff,
I just spent a week at the Michelin tire plant at a comprehensive seminar. The field engineers did everything they could to teach us how to squeeze the maximum life out of a tire (any tire) so you get the biggest bang for the buck. They beat on that topic all week.
But despite my pleading about never running on low pressure, always being garaged when not in use, etc. etc. they would not deviate from their position that the tires I am running should be removed from service at 6 or 7 years and if i fail to do so I should have them broken down annually and inspected in detail. A complete inspection is very time consuming and I suspect expensive if done correctly. The stated reason for their rigid posture on this topic was because we are doing the worst thing possible for our tires when we do not exercise them and get the compounds that resist aging released throughout the tire. Perhaps you are unlike most of us and you are constantly running your coach and thus keeping the components that protect the tire being released.
But that is the beauty of owning our own buses. We can go by whatever standards we set for ourselves and I was sufficiently impressed to believe what I was told by Michelin.
tires .... its like most things today , they are made to be replaced and as time has shown now a days every thing is built NOT to last very long . as one of my suppliers told me if we made them with the life time warranty that we offer and they lasted that long we all would be out of a job ! . on there life time warranty they are DESIGNED TO LAST 4 years . that is b s ... why cant people stand by there product they sell the way they use to . as for tires I think it would be easy to make a tire to last 10 years if not left out in the sun to rot . but then who would buy new ones ? today its all about insurance , so maybe they would last 10 years but never tell the public that
dave
Midas used to have a lifetime warranty on mufflers. After replacing the 3rd one on my car(12 yrs after replacing the original), the Midas dealer told me he would not give me a 4th one. I stated that if it was a lifetime, then I am still living and still the original owner of the car, which is still running fine. If your muffler was a quality muffler, then you shouldn't have needed to replace it at all! He did not like my logic, and liked me even less when I threatened to go to Corporate!
Fortunately for him, I sold the car shortly afterwards, with only about 160K miles on it. That would be extremely low mileage compared to the car I drive now which still has the original muffler at 243K!
Steve Toomey
Quote from: pabusnut on March 28, 2017, 05:59:23 PM.. That would be extremely low mileage compared to the car I drive now which still has the original muffler at 243K!
Steve Toomey
Original muffler @ 425800; 03 VW TDi (love those diesels).
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on March 28, 2017, 06:23:37 PM
Original muffler @ 425800; 03 VW TDi (love those diesels).
Original muffler @ 573k on my 2000 TDI
Rubber compounding is a complex art.
Knowing the exact life expectancy of ANY manufactured product is impossible, so we deal with percentages.
What if the following were true -
97% will last 10 years,
99.9% last 7 years,
99.99% last 6 years,
99.999% last 5 years
For the best case scenario of a tire failure on the road -- the replacement tire will cost about double the replacement cost at home plus collateral damage. AND THAT assumes the vehicle stays on its wheels & is still usable.
Now, consider it a different way - you have your choice of tires for your trip, are you going to choose one with a 0.0001% chance of failure
-- OR -- the one with a 3% chance of failure.
Quote from: kyle4501 on March 28, 2017, 06:59:09 PM
Rubber compounding is a complex art.
Knowing the exact life expectancy of ANY manufactured product is impossible, so we deal with percentages.
What if the following were true -
97% will last 10 years,
99.9% last 7 years,
99.99% last 6 years,
99.999% last 5 years
For the best case scenario of a tire failure on the road -- the replacement tire will cost about double the replacement cost at home plus collateral damage. AND THAT assumes the vehicle stays on its wheels & is still usable.
Now, consider it a different way - you have your choice of tires for your trip, are you going to choose one with a 0.0001% chance of failure
-- OR -- the one with a 3% chance of failure.
So, since you're doing the math, what's the chance of failure on a 17 year old tire? Curious minds want to know. ???
And NO, I put new rubber on our coach just a couple of years ago. ;D
Quote from: PP on March 28, 2017, 07:47:52 PM
So, since you're doing the math, what's the chance of failure on a 17 year old tire? Curious minds want to know. ???
Don't know, don't care, 'cause I ain't gonna use any that old. . . . ;D
Most of us will not wear the tread off our tires before they get to be too old. When I bought my Model 10 Eagle last year, it had several brands of tires on it that were 13 years old or older. The youngest ones were Dunlops that had lots of tread and looked good. The rest were mostly Michelin's with some sidewall cracking, one even had a three digit code, but they all held air and made it the 160 miles home from where I bought it. I had them all taken off, and had Dunlop SP160's put on. The two Dunlops that were on the front (13 years old) passed inspection by the dealer who said they were okay for spares. The corker is that the old spare that was behind the front bumper was also a Dunlop with a three digit code making it twenty something years old, and it was holding 100 psi. I think the current wisdom that tires are unsafe at seven years is not necessarily so, and is primarily being put out to sell tires. (Similar to stores saying your bed mattress is no good after 8 years - horseradish!).
I think a more reasonable life is more like 10-12 safe years, subject to monitoring tire pressure, checking for cuts and cracks, minimizing exposure to the sun, and running them on a regular basis to exercise them. I had heavy trucks for years, and sure enough, a truck radial could blow at any time, but they were loaded much heavier per tire. A blown tire does not automatically mean you are going off the road. In the case of that RV that crashed and burned, do they know for sure a blown tire caused it? There were no survivors, and the RV was destroyed in the fire, so unless there was a close witness, I wonder how they concluded that? For me, I will stay away from Sticks & Staples, good tires or not.
I been to Michelin in SC and Bridgestone in TN and few other,the people in SC at Michelin are very well versed so are the Bridgestone people.
With tire manufactures using different compounds you kinda to need to go with the manufactures recommendations.Buse now are heavy you have trucks on the highways weighing 70 to 80,000 lbs loaded running on 18 tires then you have a bus weighing 52,000# using 8 tires.
I am like my buddy Gary when it comes to the Michelin bus tires,they warranty the tire for 10 years and then want you to replace the tire at 6 years what is up with that deal.
;D Gary is so paranoid about the Michelin's on his Prevost he buys a new set every 4 years but it makes him feel safer so I just smile.A 2010 model with less than a 100,000 miles on his second set and shopping for a new set of tires :o
All Tire salesmen have one thing in common..SELL YOU TIRES,,whether you need them or not,,How many times have you entered a tire store and have been told ,,All your tires are good ,,you don't need new ones ..Just food for thought
I have actually taken my bus to a tire dealer in the past and been told my tires where fine other than one tire that the shoulder was wearing due to an tag axle alignment issue. I got the alignment fixed and got new steer axle tires and moved the steer tires to the tag axle.
This reminds me that my tag axle tires are now 11 years old. They show no signs of cracking and I run pressure monitors, but they should still be replaced. I will get new steer tires again and move the current steer tires to the tag axle.
i have read recently...leasing ones tires is the newest thing..
soon perhaps there will be a short term rental franchise. one where you store your old rubber and rent a set for your trip :)
it could be like a NASCAR pit stop :o
Since it is still a free country, we can each do what we want concerning replacing tires.
I used to believe that tires that didn't last until the tread was gone must have been damaged or abused.
All that changed when I started keeping vehicles longer than 5 years. . . . . .
Now, I had first hand knowledge of the tire history from new. It was then that I began to notice the fact that an abuse free history did not make a tire immune from failure.
Currently, my time in the coach is limited, so I try to minimize the chance of anything that would interfere with my coach time. ;D
I'm speaking from a black hole of ignorance but sort of common sense tells that two really solid tires (good tread and in date) on the front does a lot to keep the coach safe down the road. With a tag and six tires on the back, all monitored by TPMS, it seems one can keep an eye out for heating or other issues before one fails. You may want to replace the fronts on a more frequent basis for the first couple cycles to feed newer tires to the rears but it doesn't seem fatal if some of the olders ones run on the back for a bit.
Yeah, I'm gonna let the drives go a year or so longer than the steers, but the tags are so lightly loaded, they may go even longer - depends on when I can afford new ones. :o
Finding a small fleet/Owner Operator to cooperate with can lower your longer term tire costs, and keep fresh rubber under you.
And not just the big boys, for the uninformed, a shocking percentage of 5-10 ton trucks on this continent are Owner/Ops, and the names of big companies on the side will fool you. That's just who they are contracted to. The guy driving that big name-brand delivery truck just might own it too. The courier companies are another place to check.
It goes something like this:
Decide on a mutually agreeable tire style/tread/size/rating and how many tires.
Everyone has good rims.
You buy new rubber.
The tires pass to the truck as it comes due for tires.
A discounted price was pre-arranged.
You add a little ca$h and go buy some more new rubber.
Repeat.
There may be a tire count difference between you and the truck, but the tag axle crowd can't have everything...?
The truck is getting effectively new rubber for a discount, you get some money out of your tire capital, instead of wasting it to zero, and the bonus, you are always running fresh rubber, the newest compounds, without worry about the ravages of time on the tires.
Just for fun, lets make up some numbers: every 3 years, you sell 6 x $500 tires for 6 x $400, a 20% discount. You spend $600 every 3 years for 6 new tires, the trucker saves $600 every 3 years on 6 tires that you put only a handful of mileage on...
The alternative? Well, because of the pain of dumping tires with perfectly good tread left, and a bit of self justification, denial, and the math works easily, you keep the tires for 12 years...
You spend $3000 all at once to replace the 6 tires after 12 years, they now have zero street value, and risk the scorn of the rabid busnuts... vs ... you rotated 4 sets for a total outlay of $2400, but at a rate of $600 every 3 years.
At 9 years, the savings opens to $3000 vs $1800
Win-win?
And to sweeten this academic treatment, if you find a partner to rotate with, the reality of inflation/rising prices would have been adjusted for along the way, lessening the sticker shock down the road?
There's always some fun to be had, an improvement to make, and some ca$h to $ave, as you continue to be...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
hey Buswarrior
do you want to buy a set of 8 slightly used tires ? at a discount price ?
I am only 2.5 hrs north of you
let me know
thanks dave
I just spent literally thousands on new tyres front and rear on my MC5. Ugh!
Buswarrier is on the right track, but I'll propose a variation.
Find an independent trucking company that is willing to deal and uses your size tires.
Let's pretend he puts on enough miles to need replacements every 18 months. Ask him to sell you his worn, but not used up tires at the end of a year for a little more than he would get from a recapper. Lets say he gets a $100 trade in for tires that can be capped. You pay $125 and what you end up with is a tire that still has enough tread depth that you will not wear it out before the tire ages out. You start out with 1 year old tires and you get 5 more years of life out of them that makes your tire cost $25 per tire per year. He gets a good price for his tires that have about 12/32 tread depth and you both smile all the way to the bank.
When calculating the cost of swapping tires with a trucker, be sure to figure the price of dismounting and remounting, and balancing (that will not be free). When it comes to balancing, not everyone uses the same method, so that could be a problem. I suspect that unless you have a neighbor or relative with a truck (with tag axles) that you can trust, this idea will not save very much. The cost of tires is a business deductible expense for truckers, but not for a private conversion.
I bought some tires through the Michelin Advantage program and all the tire shop are asking $100 to dismount,mount and balance the tires in the end I could have bought the tires from them for about the same price there is no free lunches when it comes to tires ;D
The only tire blow out / tread flying off - incident I've had was when I let my tires get to 10 years old. I wasn't going to let that happen, but it did. Rear dual. Very scary event. Tread flying off, banging around in the wheel well. In one of the center freeway lanes, had to maneuver over through traffic. I won't let them get to that age again. Want to do all I can to not go through that ever again. I know nothing is 100%, but again, I want to do what I can to not experience that adventure again.
Now swapping 'em out @ 6 - 7 years. Steers go to tags after about 3 years. Then stay on tags for another 3. Every 6 yrs or so, change out the 4 drive tires. I try to avoid buying 8 tires at once.
Kind Regards, Phil
Quote from: luvrbus on March 30, 2017, 10:13:36 AM
I bought some tires through the Michelin Advantage program and all the tire shop are asking $100 to dismount,mount and balance the tires in the end I could have bought the tires from them for about the same price there is no free lunches when it comes to tires ;D
have them delivered and send the bill to FMCA roadside assist :)
Quote from: eagle19952 on March 31, 2017, 02:56:16 PM
have them delivered and send the bill to FMCA roadside assist :)
;D that is good idea for a $109.00 a year I could have all eight replaced not the $800.00 + $15.00 ea disposal fee for tires I kept ???
Personally, I'd rather run 10-12 year old tires than new recaps. I see so many "gators" in the road in the warm southern states, it scares me to death.
I do believe everything has a shelf life but opinions differ what that is.
How many discard milk or other food just because the date is reached?
Those that know me know that I am not adverse to spending money, but I do not scatter it like alfalfa seed.
Tires that have been parked on wood blocks and covered or garaged and had the air pressure maintained are not the same as those that are just parked on the ground or gravel. Learn to inspect your coach regularly and evaluate the condition of everything or pay someone who can.
I left a trailer in Phoenix one summer, with the tire covers on, parked on gravel. I five months when I returned the rubber was eaten off the bottom of all four tires. I parked an old bus for over seven years in Alaska without tire covers on new tires. The tires showed no damage at all.
We all tend to take advice from folks we don't know. (Tire Dealers that are in the business). Unless you know and trust the dealer, get another opinion from someone that uses tires on heavy vehicles that has no dog in the fight.
Quote from: akroyaleagle on April 01, 2017, 06:14:09 AM
I see so many "gators" in the road in the warm southern states, it scares me to death.
I can't recall the last time I saw a "gator" that didn't have wires sticking out of it -
Those with wires sticking out were casing failures - not recap failures.
Speaking of trusting the information, I have a good friend who works in management of the design department at Michelin - We have had many discussions over tire failure (long life isn't a problem, early failure is). I will replace my steers prematurely, let my duals go longer, & my lightly loaded tag tires longer still.
Steer tire failure can create the most drama - dual has a spare beside it to limp to safety, tag failure not as likely since so lightly loaded.
We each get to make our own choices. ;D
Now we have tire deal straighten out,do we lubricate or nuts or not ;D ;D
Quote from: luvrbus on April 01, 2017, 09:45:57 AMNow we have tire deal straighten out,do we lubricate or nuts or not ;D ;D
Only with multi-grade oil -- straight-weight is old, out-of-date stuff!
Quote from: akroyaleagle
Personally, I'd rather run 10-12 year old tires than new recaps. I see so many "gators" in the road in the warm southern states, it scares me to death.
I do believe everything has a shelf life but opinions differ what that is.
How many discard milk or other food just because the date is reached?
Those that know me know that I am not adverse to spending money, but I do not scatter it like alfalfa seed.
Tires that have been parked on wood blocks and covered or garaged and had the air pressure maintained are not the same as those that are just parked on the ground or gravel. Learn to inspect your coach regularly and evaluate the condition of everything or pay someone who can.
I left a trailer in Phoenix one summer, with the tire covers on, parked on gravel. I five months when I returned the rubber was eaten off the bottom of all four tires. I parked an old bus for over seven years in Alaska without tire covers on new tires. The tires showed no damage at all.
We all tend to take advice from folks we don't know. (Tire Dealers that are in the business). Unless you know and trust the dealer, get another opinion from someone that uses tires on heavy vehicles that has no dog in the fight.
Joe it's been proven that todays gators are 95% virgin tires that drivers neglected and only 5% bad recaps!
Back in the day when nobody knew better everybody claimed all gators were recaps blown off.
But extensive research has been done over and over and it has been proven that recaps from a reputable "capper" are just as safe as unknown quality used virgin tires! It's all in how the owner/driver takes care of them!
;D BK ;D
They have new a word for recaps now call reconstructed tires,I ran caps on my trailers and drive axles without any problems they actually seem tougher on the tread area than a new tire.I know you cannot run 1 on low air pressure or they fly apart we always ran at least 100 psi
it's been proven that todays gators are 95% virgin tires that drivers neglected and only 5% bad recaps!
Well, it appears once again, that I don't know what I'm talking about (gators).
I guess my next question would be, if the age of the tire is of concern, why would anyone want to run new caps on old casings?
I stand by my belief that inspections, proper care and diligence should govern the use of tires more than age alone.
I will never run caps on anything, but I am not a commercial operator.
Joe the reputable "Cappers" won't cap just any old tire casing! The FIRST thing they check is the date code.
Next they give it a thorough inspection and if it has any questionable issues it's thrown out!
But you are 100% correct on the belief that inspections, proper care and diligence should govern the use of tires more than age alone.
;D BK :D
I didn't know it till awhile back that a passengers carrying bus is the only thing you cannot run caps on the front axle.I know Brown and Fedx run caps on the front of their trucks.I am still not going to run caps on the bus
Joe,
I just went through a Michelin recapping plant and if you buy caps you can be assured it is going through a remanufacturing and inspection process that will make you change your opinion. If the tire cannot be recapped and possess the durability and reliability of a new tire it is going in the scrap pile. No old casings are recapped. Keep in mind commercial operators, buses or trucks, do more miles in one year than we do in 5 so they can get about 3 recaps before the casing ages out.
When we did classes on tire forensics it was clear the tires failed, including lost treads, almost exclusively because of a road hazard or failure of the operator to maintain the tire.
I saw the testing BridgeStone did on their re manufactured tires in west Texas it was amazing the process they went through but I am still not going to be running caps on the bus
Me either, but if I had an opinion that a recap was a bad thing it got changed after seeing the process.
I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again, when I had heavy dump trucks hauling severe loads, I used Bandag recaps on the rears and new Michelin's on the front. If the plant accepted the casing after their inspection, they would guarantee it. I usually got at least three caps, and occasionally four or five. Of course, I ground the tread off within a year or so, but I had very few failures, and it was always because of rock cuts in the sidewalls. Time is our problem with the conversions, and most buses would suffer some damage if the tire blew catastrophically and threw flying chucks into the wheel well. So, I put on all new tires because while the retreads worked on my dump trucks, they were not going down the Interstate at 70-75 mph, and I really wonder if certain brands (in certain countries of origin) are built to the same standards of thirty years ago. I think the real test of quality is whether a recap plant would accept the casing. The reject rates for the various brands would show differences.
Rubber ages differently depending on environment and use or lack thereof.
While a tire sits, some of the rubber components leach out towards the surface of the tire (that white waxy stuff).
Using the tire works those back inside the tire.
So, a tire in constant use can last longer before the rubber begins breaking down.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on April 01, 2017, 10:46:43 AM
Only with multi-grade oil -- straight-weight is old, out-of-date stuff!
I really want to say something about 2-strokes and straight weight oil, but it's probably not appropriate here :o :o For Cliff to even bring it up, he must be into the good wine again. ;)