Buy an already converted bus project.
Well, lots of research and process of elimination leaves this last option, putting smiles on many here.
A factory built conversion is beyond my upfront spend. I could wait until ready with the full spend but would miss out the enjoyment and trills of bus conversion ownership.
Sticks and staples - Just not going there.
Travel trailer - Just not going there.
DIY was my last preferred option due to really wanting a newer 4 stroke motor coach. As reality emerged, the amount of resources, everything from time, money, parts, labor, skills to tools and facilities, it is now clear just how large and enduring a commitment it takes to ensure a completed conversion. But life happens, so even with the best plans and intentions, some projects will fail to succeed.
There are a variety of successful conversion builds. Scott and Heather did a roof raise that required completely stripping the top half of the bus including removal of all windows, fully repaneling the sides, reinstalling windows, etc. It seems one can leave the original windows in place for the most part, seal them well and insulate and panel over them, leaving a few open as desired. That alone would reduce the size of the conversion by a significant amount. But no matter how you slice it, DIY is a huge job.
Already converted option - Yes, y'all recommended this option all along. I'm thick but usually come around. Mostly by process of elimination, looking at already converted is my last and only viable option if I want to jump in the near term.
Having to let go of a 4 stoke coach is difficult but its just unrealistic at this time. Not all gloom though as there are plenty of nicely converted coaches plus the market very small by nature and especially soft in recent times. Critical task is being 100% sure it is as fully inspected and tested as possible before driving off.
Thanks again for all the support and guidance.
What's your budget? Might be a 1991 low mileage professional converted XL Mirage Prevost in your future. ;D
It seems that there was a partially converted coach available not too long ago at a very good price. All the expensive stuff was completed. This would be very doable for someone new to the conversion process. It was really reasonable since the owner had died. Maybe, somebody remembers it.
Don and Cary
There are some older conversions with a four stroke. I have an 8 that has an L10. Mike has a 7 with an L10. They are out there. Not a common as the two strokes in the older buses but they can be found. Lots of people have repowered with four strokes into older buses. Good luck finding something that works for you.
Melbo
just so you know... L10 Cummins ZF
the ZF part of that nomenclature above...
a complete rebuild of any motor would be more welcome than a ZF failure.... I've been told...
there are still many things to consider.
No offense.
FYI
http://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?tid=3375 (http://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?tid=3375)
A lot of bang for the buck . . . . With a good sized down payment, wouldn't be too difficult to finance the balance. Assuming the interior suits your needs.
@muldoon - Total project budget is 50k, initial spend 20-25k.
@melbo - I have seen 4 strokes in older coaches but not often and slim pickings for sale. But will keep an eye open for sure.
@eagle - Thanks for the decode. DD was the standard plant in the MCI D series and DD in the older GM and MCIs. I'm comfortable with these two due to the number of them built.
@Kyle - If I had 50k to spend today, I'd give an older Newell serious consideration.
I'm hoping a bus pre-purchase inspection checklist is available somewhere. I'll be asking prospective shops about their process and checklist. It would be great to cross check the two lists. Specifically, the coach specific items would be extra useful. For example, there are certain places where rust might be found or known weak parts or components.
Is there a compiled list of recommendations for bus shops and mechanics?
I have a few for NorCal but may need one for San Diego. Thanks
Don -
Have you taken the time yet to physically get up from your keyboard and go LOOK at some bus conversions for sale?
As Buswarrior mentioned in another thread, you're at a point where you need to SEE these beasts in person. Lots of them.
Here's an intelligent suggestion:
Get on one of those Las Vegas gambler's special flights out of SFO, OAK, or SJC this coming Friday night. Rent a car at McCarran and drive the 60 miles or so up to Pahrump Saturday morning, where there's going to be a bus rally (that runs thru Wed AM) with 30 converted coaches. You'll get to meet some of the folk who frequent these forums, and most will let you tour their rigs. You'll be able to ask more questions and get far more informative answers from face-to-face conversations with owners than the hours you're spending staring at a computer screen.
The education you'll receive over the weekend for the minimum trip cash outlay, will be priceless.
GO!!!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
PS: I'll be there. Just look for Aesop's Tortoise!
Quote from: RJ on March 05, 2017, 10:43:15 PM
Don -
Have you taken the time yet to physically get up from your keyboard and go LOOK at some bus conversions for sale?
As Buswarrior mentioned in another thread, you're at a point where you need to SEE these beasts in person. Lots of them.
Very good advice, you also need to actually drive a few different buses before you actually make a decision. The mind can dream up a carefully considered choice, but your physical body needs to plant itself in the drivers seat and experience the real feel and sounds of the bus. For example, a four stroke might be a wise choice for various reasons, but the sound of a two cycle can be music to the ears. Every version of the engines available have distinctive sounds that you may enjoy, or not.
It's not unlike choosing a life partner, would you choose someone based on pictures, descriptions, and recommendations alone? It's not a business decision, it's an emotional bond between you and the bus because you like the look, appreciate the condition, and it makes you feel good when you are in it. Otherwise, you might just as well rent an RV, and turn it in when you are done with it. There are many people on this board who have had their coach for decades, and they cherish them. If you are lucky, you might be able to take over someone else's coach that has been meticulously maintained. Doing a conversion yourself is creative and exciting, but it is expensive and time consuming. There are plenty of good coaches out there for under $50,000.
@RJ and Eagle - Thanks for your feedback and encouragement. Everyone has their own unique milieu of methodology, needs, interests, styles, personalities, etc. that makes life so interesting and wonderful. Buying a bus conversion was not on my radar until a couple months ago when I checked one out, got a good look, and a nice long ride in it. After that it got on my radar. :)
I'm most comfortable building a solid understanding of what I am looking to purchase beforehand as evidenced by the prolific posts here, researching other notable websites, private conversations, and chats with professionals over the phone. I've looked at a number of buses - passenger buses still in service and those just retired and already converted buses. Those are the most quantifiable as they are closest to a known specification. Factory conversions follow next in terms of known pedigree. Lastly, private conversions are unique, wide ranging from the mundane, utilitarian, hacks, professional, dated, refreshed, to highly creative.
Market condition assessment. Supply, demand, actual price to SELL today (90 days). Over the past couple months I have tracked inventory and monitoring sold buses. Sadly for sellers, there are a lot more listed buses than those actually sold, primarily not selling due to owners coping with the lack of return on the money spent on the project. Most folks understand that until it is their turn to list then sell.
Thanks again to all who have taken time to help me, I now have sufficiently defined parameters to engage in a serious search. I know what I am looking for, what I am getting into vis a vis owning a bus, how to accurately establish bus condition and history, and current market value.
When I come across the right one and make the deal, it's just an hour from a bank wire transfer to title and keys then on the way home. Same way as I buy many things and always served be well. Stick with what works.
Don
Quote from: kyle4501 on March 05, 2017, 07:29:57 PM
FYI
http://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?tid=3375 (http://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?tid=3375)
A lot of bang for the buck . . . . With a good sized down payment, wouldn't be too difficult to finance the balance. Assuming the interior suits your needs.
I wonder why its original engine had to be replaced after only 110,000 miles?
John
Quote from: Iceni John on March 06, 2017, 10:41:55 AM
I wonder why its original engine had to be replaced after only 110,000 miles?
John
I don't doubt it since he mention new radiator probably used the wrong antifreeze or never tested the antifreeze and had so much silica drop out and it plugged the cooling system and overheated,the hydraulic fan drive on a Newell are not the greatest either in the older models
Just an note on the ZF --- the rebuild (I had it done when I was home and R&Red the trans myself) was way less than half the amount I have heard about dropping an engine. One time the brain box took a bath and died. I was able to drive home without it and picked one up at my leisure. So I guess I am saying what scares and intimidates some people can really be a non issue depending on your perspective.
Melbo
Quote from: Iceni John on March 06, 2017, 10:41:55 AM
I wonder why its original engine had to be replaced after only 110,000 miles?
John
I'm willing to bet the engine over heated from some problem and the driver kept on going to the next exit instead of stopping.
--Geoff
Quote from: Geoff on March 06, 2017, 06:44:14 PMI'm willing to bet the engine over heated from some problem and the driver kept on going to the next exit instead of stopping.
--Geoff
That fits in with the "radiator issues" theory.
@RJ - Good news. One of the buses listed last week in Sacramento sold in days. I went to see it but called of off due to rain. Called today to reschedule and learned it was sold very near their asking price. Excellent data point. The other one owned by Sean did not meet my criteria; specifically, short ownership and no documentation on major work done.
Pursuing a couple others. Getting the inspections lined up with DD, Allison and coach pros (house systems).
May arrange trip to rally
I have seen Series 60's go through their cylinder liners in 150,000 miles without proper coolant protection.
Quote from: windtrader on March 07, 2017, 08:01:07 PM
@RJ - Good news. One of the buses listed last week in Sacramento sold in days. I went to see it but called of off due to rain. Called today to reschedule and learned it was sold very near their asking price. Excellent data point. The other one owned by Sean did not meet my criteria; specifically, short ownership and no documentation on major work done.
Pursuing a couple others. Getting the inspections lined up with DD, Allison and coach pros (house systems).
May arrange trip to rally
Sean's bus set for 10 years before he purchased it he knows very little about it and will tell you
FWIW...
I deal with land use and housing issues for a living. There has been notable uptick and interest from the "tiny house" folks. They are beginning to see the benefits of a house on wheels, as well as the storage capacity under most buses. If the trend reports I've seen are even close to reality, ( studied 5-7 year range) the value of conversions is going to go up very quickly.
But many of us nuts have a different value perspective than most any other personal property class. There is no price I would take for my bus...but I have sentimental reasons...and an MC8 withOUT a square top ;D
@luvrbus - Plus his bus has some non-trivial, critical service needing immediate attention. That, plus lack of history and (his) short ownership pretty much knocked that one out.
@daddysgirl - I'm with you, bus conversions remain in the shadows biding time for something viral to pop about living small in an RV, trailer, or bus conversion, then all hell will break loose. For what people are paying for basically a souped up tuffshed, it will be a stampede. Hopefully, those taking time to fully assess the implications going this way, ongoing costs much greater than a tiny house, will provide some tempering. Still, there'll be plenty who jump before the reality of bus conversion goes viral.
If the great unwashed masses start messing with bus conversions...
They will get into trouble. The trouble will lead back to shoddy and non-existant maintenance habits.
Then the handy exemptions from DOT compliance will evaporate to clear them out.
Do you want to take your coach for a DOT inspection?
The herd needs to protect itself.
Proper maintenance and roadworthy condition without regulation needs to be this hobby's loudest noise.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I agree with both of you.
As it is now, many of the tiny house fans (and some companies) are building houses on regular utility trailers. They build their tiny dream and very few bother to think about the weight on those "tiny" tires. Many of those trailers were never intended for that use. Only time will tell if anyone uses a bus and understands what that means. Some will...some won't.
Personally, (when I am finished with the re-conversion) I have no problem taking it for DOT inspection. I would want to be compliant...but I say that not knowing all of the regulations for conversions.
I know 99% of VDOT requirements for land use, but that's not the same arena.
Daddy's girl,
(what was your name btw? You mentioned it once in a post but I can't find that now) you bring up a really good thought. I also am seeing a lot more interest in the hobby at RV parks we stay at and at places we visit around the country. We are kind of private and I don't like giving tours of our coach now that we live in it, but we have been giving a fair amount of tours to people interested in doing this. Funny thing though, is that so many people are attracted to the glitz of the sexy fifth wheel interiors...so buses like ours don't always make it on their radar. No slides, not as high ceilings. It's an education process to get them to realize those high ceilings waste what could have been lower storage, and those pretty cabinets are made of cheap MDF and will swell and fall apart soon, and those slides...all leak. They all do. Unless you have an air pillow seal, they all will leak eventually. I bang my head on the wall on this over and over again. In 7 years of fulltiming we have talked to hundreds of RV with slides owners. Even brand new $85,000 fifth wheels have slides that leak and the owners have to return them to the factory to be resealed. Then theres the group that says their slides don't leak (talked to them too) and then a few years later they tell us their floors are soft and when they had the rv inspected, it turned out the slide was leaking for years and they had no idea. So yeah...I'm anti slide unless it is the air pillow sealing kind. When high winds and storms forced everyone in our 250 unit RV park to evacuate their rv's and trailers and all cram themselves and their pets into the bath house, Heather and I were snug in our bus...the storm never woke us, never shook the coach, and the next morning everyone walked by our bus and said "you two were the only ones who could ever think of riding that storm out, now we want a bus". They were half kidding but even they knew our coach was more solid than their fifth wheels. Wind knocks over 80,000 lb semi trucks so I'm not saying we are invincible but for sure we are more solid. Also, a friend who drove class motorhomes for years drove our bus and couldn't believe how stable it was driving down the road. He kept commenting on that. I know only a small portion of the "tiny house" movement folk will actually do the research and find that buses can make pretty safe tiny homes, but here's to hoping our hobby grows!
LOL I saw a extra clean 1994 34 ft Collins fifth wheel made by Beaver the Prevost and high end MH converter sell for $41,000.00 about the same price as you could by a 1994 Prevost for and the guy thought he died and went to heaven he was so happy.There was no MDF in that one the wood work was a piece of art work
Scott there is only one thing I disagree with on your last post:
Quote from: Scott & Heather
Wind knocks over 80,000 lb semi trucks so I'm not saying we are invincible but for sure we are more solid.
I have NEVER seen an 80,000 truck blown over by wind. Not even a tornado.
I have however seen LOTS and LOTS of empty and lightly loaded trucks turned over by wind and tossed around by tornadoes! While it might look like a truck is loaded to capacity and blown over, more than likely the load is very light and even though it's bulky enough to fill the truck it's considerably lighter than 80,000 lbs.
I once had a tornado pick up my trailer and whip me lane to lane several times in Ogalla, NE on I-80 as it hit me while I was deadheading to Cheyenne, WY for a load.
It scared the crap out of me, but I had no choice as it came across a field and was right there on me w/o warning and I took my chances of keeping the hammer down and hoping I could drive it out rather than pulling over and be a sitting kite waiting for lift off!
I was extremely lucky as the only damage done to the truck was a 6' "T" post stuck right thru my sleeper wall where if someone had been asleep in the bunk they'd been DEAD! I did however have to stop at the next truck stop for a shower and a change of underwear!
And btw yes you do see heavily loaded trucks laid over sometimes but it wasn't laid over by the wind. Most likely the actions or like of actions of the driver caused by the wind.
;D BK ;D
Ok I stand corrected, I honestly wonder what sort of side wind it would take to knock over a parked coach. I know tornadoes are no joke but there's been plenty of high wind storms that go through parks and knock over camper trailers. So BK when we see semis going over in the wind they are light or empty? Crazy.
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I have had brushes with severe cross winds in tractor trailers on several occasions, and the amount of loading makes a big difference. The trucks that flop over quickly are generally empty or lightly loaded, and it seems that slowing down reduces the chances of getting in trouble. I was following a Fedex double trailer on I 90 between Buffalo, NY and Erie, PA a few years ago on a windy winter night when I saw the whole double trailer and tractor flop over in a flash. I felt the wind myself, and I fought the wheel, but I had a 53' trailer chock full to the maximum. After I stopped for the other truck, I found out that he was fairly lightly loaded, and had been sweating something like that happening. It was straight line winds coming off Lake Erie in the range of 50-70 mph. I always felt safer in winds driving a rounded heavy tanker, or a loaded bus. They are both heavy, not as high, and have rounded tops (unless it's Van Hool). I had a similar incident to Scott & Heather's in my Eagle when I was camping in Northern Michigan (Charlevoix). While we were sleeping at night, a strong thunderstorm came off Lake Michigan and did a lot of damage to the trees, canopies, and RV's around us. We were untouched and unaware of what was going on, and we were not as heavily insulated as Scott & Heather's MCI. In a really severe high class tornado, all bets are off of not noticing. Railroad cars (which weigh 40 tons empty) have been knocked over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYubpuIe3cw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYubpuIe3cw)
Happened 7Jan2008 on the Union Pacific railroad near Harvard IL. You can see the trees being whipped, hear debris hitting the trailing engine from which the video came, and then see debris flying through the air from the F3 tornado that blows some cars over. Then the rest of the train carried along by its' momentum smashes its' way along creating even more of a
....................................................show more.....................................................
Empty 13' trailers blow over all the time. They are usually stopped. We had a travel trailer blow over a couple of miles down the road here in Prescott. Funny it was for sale with the one slide out and not hooked up to a truck. It sold for scrap.
--Geoff
There is no doubt the bus can take more wind than the average RV and we have rode out some rough ones. When it is real bad, we still take cover. This story a few years ago goes through my mind when tornado warnings sound.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/weather/2012/02/29/dnt-kotv-dt-kwtv-dt-branson-tornado-strickland.kotv-dt-kwtv-dt (http://www.cnn.com/videos/weather/2012/02/29/dnt-kotv-dt-kwtv-dt-branson-tornado-strickland.kotv-dt-kwtv-dt)
Davy
I'm sorry...My name is Andrea :)
A few years after the first time dad and I did this bus, mom and dad were in SC Beverly Beach campground...on the water. Gaston was heading up and inland. I called dad to find out where they were and he said..."I'm parked in front of the ocean watching all of these fools try to evacuate clogging the tree-lined highway"
I was questioning his logic when he said "Andrea, I'm 44k pounds, sitting at a place with zero trees well above the flood level, and breaking the wind. The heavy rigs that left out of fear are the people in danger". Mom wasn't thrilled, but the next day, he called and reminded me I am not the "panic type", and he would expect me to do the same, given the same situation. He said the bus would sway a little every few hours but not enough for to knock his drink off the table.
Dad was a safety freak, as am I.
Oh, and he used to laugh at the fancy rigs with slideouts. "They ALL leak. If not today, tomorrow".
Quote from: Scott & Heather on March 10, 2017, 02:18:12 PM
Ok I stand corrected, I honestly wonder what sort of side wind it would take to knock over a parked coach. I know tornadoes are no joke but there's been plenty of high wind storms that go through parks and knock over camper trailers. So BK when we see semis going over in the wind they are light or empty? Crazy.
OK Scott first off if the TRUCK just BLOWS over 99.9% of the time it is lightly loaded or empty.
Second a parked empty trailer will blow over easier trailer than one moving down the road.
Now I'm not saying ALL the trucks you see turned over in high winds are lightly loaded or empty.
Many of them are loaded heavy and the hard winds took the driver (usually very inexperienced) by surprise and he did something stupid like over correcting or didn't fight it and ran it off the road causing it to "flip". But if you actually see one "BLOW" over which I have witnessed first hand more times than I care to recall, it will be a very light load or empty. This is why they have the high wind advisory signs out in the North West warning light and oversized loads to park and wait for the winds to die down.
OH and btw many drivers will blame the wind for causing them to lay a truck over when they ran off the road, fell a sleep, took a curve too fast etc.
Now TORNADOES are a whole different ball game and all bets are off when it comes to those suckers!
I lived in OK for 5 years and can tell you it ain't no fun going into town to pick up friend who's truck is laying on it's side on top of 2 other trucks from being tossed like a paper towel in a tornado. (BTW he was lucky he was in the truck stop taking a shower when his truck got tossed!)
The wreckage was sickening! There were trucks everywhere and all sorts of debris that didn't even come from the truck stop everywhere. Like the whole roof of a house/building on top of the torn down awning that covered the fuel island! Probably 35-40 or more trucks damaged either by being blown over or having one land on it.
Every window in the truck stop blown out and the entire contents of the store blown everywhere.
It was a huge mess and very disturbing to see how much damage was done and that many people could have lost their lives and yet the good lord spared them.
;D BK ;D
I have had 3 units with slide outs 1st one was a southwind storm and yes the slide out system was crap and did have some discoloration on the carpet from a slide leak . 2nd was our 1990 mci that I built the slide and never had a leak , 3rd is the current unit . no leaks even with the slide out awning removed but there is evidence of a small water discoloration on the plywood floor from the water line for the ice maker or the fridge or freezer defrosting . would I live with out a slide ? no
dave
I can't agree with the comments that there is more chance of a trailer tipping over if it is sitting still, or that accelerating will help. The interaction of wind on a vehicle depends on many factors, including the direction of the wind in relation to the broadside of the vehicle. The worst scenario is the wind hitting at a 90 degree angle on the side, that does not always happen, but the wind can change direction, or the road can change course.
On the rvforum.net, there was a discussion of wind problems, and one poster put a detailed mathematical formula out that calculated the coefficient of drag on surface areas. To make a long calculation short, it found that the coefficient of drag doubled when the velocity of the air against the surface increased from 55 to 70 mph. Those kinds of calculations are used to figure fuel economy and torque and gear ratio requirements. In the case of large vehicles going down the road at high speed against a high wind at an angle that puts additional drag on the vehicle, it would appear that going faster would aggravate the potential hazard of tipping over. When you are in the process of going down the road at a 45 degree angle and watching the road coming up closer, do you want to be laying your vehicle down at 70 mph, or 30 mph?
To quote The Truck Accident Attorneys Roundtable website, "High winds make driving any kind of big bus or truck much more dangerous, and high winds require a much higher degree of care. Semi-trucks are especially prone to wind interference because big-rigs are so much bigger than other ordinary vehicles, and the surface of the trailer creates an enormous "sail area" which catches the wind. This can cause the trailer to move – and this has led to many otherwise preventable truck accidents caused by windy conditions.
A sail area is defined as any type of surface that will generate thrust by being placed in wind. The more square footage in the sail area, the more power developed by wind pressure. For example, the side of a trailer can be as long as 53 feet and 9 feet high, which equates to nearly 500 square feet of sail area. And the same wind conditions which may minimally impact a passenger car can have dramatic effects on a trailer with 500 square feet of sail area."
"Truckers also know the problem of wind is made significantly worse when a semi-truck with a large sail area travels down the highway at a high rate of speed.
Pressure develops because of wind under the trailer, over the trailer, and around the trailer. The higher the rate of speed, the more effect the wind has on all these areas.
The best way to proceed in high wind situations is to simply slow down, or if appropriate, pull over and stop when it is safe to do so."
I can see where there might be situations where the wind direction is somewhat behind you and you are going with the wind to some degree, where going fast or faster might help, but if the wind direction changes or if there is over-correction by the driver, you will be in more trouble than if you were going slower. The lawyers that will sue us if we flop over on someone in their tiny vehicle, will be fully aware of what we should have done.
Dave if I ever wanted a slide, I'd pay you to build it for me cause your 102c3 slides seemed well done.
Andrea, funny you tell that story, we rode out hurricane IRENE in eastern pennsylvania when it blew through. Craziest bus experience I've ever had. 80-90mph sustained winds for 20 hours straight. It was nuts. Truly nuts.
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thanks for the offer Scott .... but no more slide manufacturing for me . I could not be happier with the rv I have now and am enjoying the fun of redoing the inside . just rebuilt the front tv unit to a 50 " 4 k unit with a new 4 k bluray player WOW there was a lot of tear out to remove the old system but huge difference in size of tv ( and weight ) made a wide open difference over the dash and now you see a lot of natural cherry wood instead of the shinny laminate that was there . on to the next redo
dave
Dave, sometime
Post some
Pics. I'm always curious how former bus owners convert their new coaches
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