Major decision made on the motor and coach type. That will narrow the search quite a bit.
Ideal target is mid-90's MCI 102D3 with Series 60 12.7 pre-EGR motor, Allison B500.
Looked at two today. Both were bought used from MCI directly and kept in fleet and on the road until the end of 2016. Coaches look very clean and rust free as run exclusively in CA. Motor and tranny were rebuilt 164k ago, waiting to see full docs. Well serviced by fleet mechanic and 3rd party as needed. Solid history of 45 day inspections and annual CHP inspections. Until today, I assumed the yearly check was perfunctory but the owner informed me it was a major all day inspection, funded by the hefty quarterly PUC payments. Selling due to not wanting to put the $$ into the DPF conversion, rather add more newer buses clients want anyway. With odometer reading 0079507, it must have flipped right? So coach has just rolled over a million?
Thanks
So Don, does this mean you're thinking that you're going to do your own conversion?
Hi Don, I drove a 66 minibus for a lot of years, sold it in CA in 73. Bought a S&S class C, wrecked it on the Grapevine in 79 then we bought our 53 GMC 4104 & have been driving it ever since. Miss my VDub though... welcome aboard. Your getting our disease - have fun...
With a "all in" budget of around $50K, I think its safe to assume he will do convertion himself considering year of coach being desired. What we have not heard yet is timeframe being considered for completion and time available to do research, engineering, parts procurement, installation and testing.
I had a lot of time and the skills, tools and shop to perform my re-conversion and it took me 8 months full-full time to complete and that was fundamentally the interior/systems only. I was working 16 hour days to get competed to leave on my winter trip. I seriously mis-judged my schedule and degree of difficulty and I converted commercial aircraft for a living for 40 years. In bus converting, you are the full team on everything from finance through cleanup. Depending on the quality outcome you seek. It can be a serious challenge, but I found it an enjoyable and rewarding one at that.
Windtrader, I am in the process of converting a 1998 H3-41. I purchased the bus in 2011 and it is 50% complete. I still have a day job and I spend about 1.5 days per week on the bus. You really need to enjoy the project aspect of converting a bus. The money just does not pencil out. Living in Oregon near all of the RV and Motorhome factories I have been able to find most of the expensive conversion items for pennies on the dollar. I have a shop where I can work inside and most of the tools were purchased before starting the project. I would not do it over again. I would go find a used factory conversion.
As far as the comments on the buses you looked at. The odometer has probably been replaced a couple of times. California buses do not have rust but they are beat up by the pot holes and crappy roads. I looked at several CA buses and the shock mounts were either broken or repaired. The frames around the baggage doors usually have multiple repairs. There are long hills and I would be concerned about over heating. Have a reader hooked up and check the mileage and engine faults on the computer.
Haul that dinosaur home, put it in your driveway, and it will start eating your money.
Bandsaw
Taking the 4 stroke decision puts me on course to do the conversion.
I've not seen any "already converted" 4 stroke bus projects in my price range. Those around are factory converted units that are all way north of 100K. In general it seems there are far fewer 4 stroke non-factory bus conversions.
Unless there is some really really special deal, the bus needs to be fully checked and very solid on delivery. Absolutely refuse starting out of the gate with a wrench in hand.
Timeframe.
Obviously, need to learn everything involved about early conversion steps but it seem logical to pull the seating and racks first. Pull panels and insulate. Hopefully, the full electrical and plumbing plans don't need to be completed first.
Getting bus useable for road trips: 3-6 months. That will be basically an insulated shell. Some form of shore power working, even if that is a subpanel wired for a few 110 outlets connecting to shore. Have not though any about going battery based. Will research pulling e-system from a wrecked e-car. Would be more than enough to run the entire bus. Charge up when on shore or on board generator. I know ebike folks and others harvest power modules. Maybe some surplus "wall to wall" carpet, a few comfy chairs and couch. Table and chairs. Throw a bed in there. Keep all glass intact. Affix insulated materials and blackout on some. "Curtains" on others for privacy. A few light fixtures. Who knows, maybe some table lamps bolted down.
One year mark - would hope to have permanent layout finalized, get the fresh, grey, and black water in. Some form of power system working. Some fixtures in place like kitchen, bathroom, shower, refrig, stove. heating/cooling?
two years out - With a lot of good luck, get final power system operational, complete coach outfitting including cabinets, fit and finish.
This is all just a huge swag but the general theme is getting bus stripped and insulated, do some minimal improvements, start using it, then over time complete tested upgrades over the following year or two. No hurry and no grandiose intentions.
You all know far better than me the millions of small things that will slow things down, go off course, dent the checkbook endlessly, etc.
@bandsaw - Thanks for the honest comments. Until I write the check and drive off, I am still open and listening to being pulled off the ledge. I really do need to think very hard about going DIY. Like you, I do plan to source as many parts from other projects and yards as possible. I've not checked any out but there surely are RV boneyards where good working tanks, fittings, and various systems can be had way below new.
A big amount of soul searching is in order and appreciate the folks here for the frank feedback, sound advice, and warnings. Before i pull the trigger, I will spend copious amounts of time inside a few fully fitted RV to see the full extent of the installed systems and translate that into a work and parts list to DIY. Very well may run out of paper and pencils before I get through. A sobering exercise I am sure.
Thanks again to all.
Quote from: windtrader on March 01, 2017, 07:35:54 PM
Absolutely refuse starting out of the gate with a wrench in hand.
Ha Ha ..Now that's funny!
Windtrader, if you expect you are a busnut, your going to wish each of your fingers were a different sized wrench. The first day with your bus might be the only day you don't have a wrench in your hand.
If it isn't because you need one, it will be because you want one.
My bus had 20 years in service when it retired, much like the one you are looking at - mid 1990's to current. At 100K a year that's 2 million miles. Ask them what their normal annual mileage is. Otherwise sounds like you're taking a route that I would consider a good one. I haven't sourced anything from a salvage or used RV boneyard type place, but I have bought at far below retail from RV places blowing out old stock, bankruptcies, etc. Some things I want new - electronics, for example, other things - electrical panels, breakers, wire - you can reuse, recycle. Plumbing I did all new.
Quote from: windtrader on March 01, 2017, 07:35:54 PM... Absolutely refuse starting out of the gate with a wrench in hand. ...
Quote from: Astro on March 01, 2017, 08:11:12 PM
Ha Ha ..Now that's funny!
Windtrader, if you expect you are a busnut, your going to wish each of your fingers were a different sized wrench. The first day with your bus might be the only day you don't have a wrench in your hand.
If it isn't because you need one, it will be because you want one.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on March 02, 2017, 04:44:27 AM
Hum.. The point is I want as solid a rig to start with, fully knowing there will be plenty of opportunities for getting hands dirty. Hopefully, only scheduled maintenance service, a part replacement here or there, brakes, tires, but no major service issues.
I know there are quite a few here that will disagree, but for me, the tires and brakes were a major service issue ;D ;D
How can they NOT be an issue??, without them you don't drive.>>>Dan
Quote from: windtrader on March 01, 2017, 07:35:54 PM
Absolutely refuse starting out of the gate with a wrench in hand.
If that's the case, then I very strongly suggest a pickup and a trailer. Trust me. This is the very reason why I probably will never own another bus, unless I have no alternative. I have helped multiple people, who bought solid buses, and broke down on their way home. A bus has a lot of systems that can break. While it is a good fit for some people, they take a lot of work.
If you aren't a fan of wrenching, keep looking. I'm serious. Buses are crazy expensive, even if you get a good deal on one.
FWIW
John
I agree. Going for a bus conversion is not for everyone. You better beware to buy a 20 year old bus, spend a fortune converting it, and spend another fortune paying for all the mechanical repairs that should have been done before you started the conversion. And end up with something that is worth pennies on the dollar for the time and money you spent on it. I know very few people that can do all this. I would bet 9 out of 10 conversions never get to the being usable point. And even fewer get to the envy point. And then everyone who doesn't have a clue to what you have accomplished just think you are a nut. And that sums up being a bus-nut.
--Geoff
Quote from: windtrader on March 02, 2017, 11:51:58 AM
Hum.. The point is I want as solid a rig to start with, fully knowing there will be plenty of opportunities for getting hands dirty. Hopefully, only scheduled maintenance service, a part replacement here or there, brakes, tires, but no major service issues.
Martin Luther King said it best...
OK. OK.
Seriously, I want to thank the community for taking time and interest to offer your heartfelt advice and warnings. Clearly starting a conversion project based on a retired passenger bus is ill-advised, very high risk, full of known and unforeseen challenges, budget busting, and low odds of crossing the finish line without cursing "I HAD a dream" ala MLK.
Checkbook is locked away but reality has not sunk in and the dream burns on. Couple things I'm going to do.
1) Start looking at already converted projects, betting they are 2 strokes. Here are a couple just popped up last couple days locally. Many of you are in 2 strokes and not screaming "Don't do that!" it offers some assurance that a completed 2-stroke running down the road is a whole lot better than an empty stripped shell.
https://sacramento.craigslist.org/rvs/6026573454.html
https://sacramento.craigslist.org/rvs/6021021613.html
2) Nuke the DIY notion once and for all. Make a complete build list with generously discounted pricing then double, maybe triple it. That ought to shine enough dream killing light onto the matter once and for all.
Thanks again.
Will report back about the two listings.
The 1st listing is Sean's bus he just bought that one last year and he hasn't owned it long, has 8V71 Detroit.Have you checked out Buck's Face Book page "Bus Conversions For Sale" ? it is the cover picture on that F/B page
Quote from: windtrader on March 02, 2017, 07:17:49 PM
OK. OK.
1)Many of you are in 2 strokes and not screaming "Don't do that!" it offers some assurance that a completed 2-stroke running down the road is a whole lot better than an empty stripped shell.
the 6v92 is a good choice in the short bus if it works for you... here's a tip, there are still hundreds if not 1000's of two strokes in boats...the fishing industry will always have them. looking for mechanics in all the wrong places :) they are there. next...these motors have really not evolved since inception they were easy to work on then and easy now.
The 2 stroke idea ain't a killer for me but then again I bought my extremely low mileage 1991 Prevost from the original owners. The way a lot of folks talk wouldn't think a non turbo would be very handy in a large bus. Have the 8V92TA in mine and it's a stop light king and weighs in around 38,000 wet. I took the washer and dryer out as I didn't need the extra weight. LOL. It was never used from new anywho. Don't carry a lot underneath. There is always something to kinker with for sure. Working on one of the Cruisairs (put new hoses on from AAP) on the swing out one as we speak. Has 3 under in front, behind bumper.You have to learn a little (really a lot) and do some of the work yourself unless you have a pocket full of money on you. Luckily I do, but can't find anybody close to work on this thing and most stick and staple rv dealers you don't trust. Found that out at the get go. When it hits 100,000 miles, I'll think it's worn out and sell or trade. It's got 88,000 on it now. I always trade my cars in at 100,000. Good Luck on your search.
Quote from: eagle19952 on March 02, 2017, 08:33:43 PM
the 6v92 is a good choice in the short bus if it works for you... here's a tip, there are still hundreds if not 1000's of two strokes in boats...the fishing industry will always have them. looking for mechanics in all the wrong places :) they are there. next...these motors have really not evolved since inception they were easy to work on then and easy now.
There are no 2 strokes left in boats in major areas like Texas,New York and CA they are setting every where in Texas,I read where they pulling the 2 banger from equipment in the North Slope now lol I sure want one of those 12v71.For the last 10 years they have been removing the 2 strokes from the mining equipment here in AZ to meet the EPA Teir rating such a waste
My brother in law is a fishing guide out of Surfside/Freeport Tx. area and he said there are still a ton of them on the big open water boats and shrimpers down in that area, but can see where they might be coming to an end. He says you think they are on fire when they pass blowing that sweet black smoke in the air.
Quote from: muldoonman on March 03, 2017, 06:50:35 AM
My brother in law is a fishing guide out of Surfside/Freeport Tx. area and he said there are still a ton of them on the big open water boats and shrimpers down in that area, but can see where they might be coming to an end. He says you think they are on fire when they pass blowing that sweet black smoke in the air.
Texas has a clean air program they are giving out grants to owners to remove the DD diesels they remove a lot of those engines at Smith's Point lol that place is like heaven to me cheap parts bought me 2-6L71 DDEC at a steal
Yeah Cliff, BIL said some of the older guys still shrimping said no matter what those old 2 stokes would still get you back in. Said they wouldn't know what to do if they weren't breathing smoke all day. Most of those guys work on them themselves.
Sorry, Don. I can't leave it alone. Even if you buy a used "good" condition bus, you will still spend a lot of money on it.
Here is the worry free way of travel, that I will be adopting when I RV again. ;D
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.f150ecoboost.net%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2F5017-3-55-rear-end-vs-3-73-rear-end-towing-imageuploadedbytapatalk1385950099.340621.jpg&hash=b948938d3d2d4326c99bcf58e475cc6fec038123)
Great advice. Might be lucky finding 2 stroke experience along the NorCal coast. There are small but viable fleets for charter, spot, and fishing, crabbing. It seems CA does not ban salt water 2 strokes http://dbw.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=28770. (http://dbw.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=28770.) There are plenty of small harbors dotting the coast so may find high value service there.
Quote from: John316 on March 03, 2017, 08:56:06 AM
Sorry, Don. I can't leave it alone. Even if you buy a used "good" condition bus, you will still spend a lot of money on it.
Here is the worry free way of travel, that I will be adopting when I RV again. ;D
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.f150ecoboost.net%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2F5017-3-55-rear-end-vs-3-73-rear-end-towing-imageuploadedbytapatalk1385950099.340621.jpg&hash=b948938d3d2d4326c99bcf58e475cc6fec038123)
seriously...trouble free...u cannot be serious.
there are at least 11 facebook groups that you will find 40 woes on every day ...
@John,
I'd really love to get an overview of your experience with the DL3/Series 60. No longer being an owner and the comments about cost and worry, am I right to suspect these issues exceeded your pain threshold? Also really curious you are active here while no longer owning a bus. Still yearning to do it again? Pop me an email, link in my profile.
Fifth wheel was something I explored but it did not seem particularly cheaper or more worry free. A solid running 350 is not cheap, it will be cheaper to service, nothing costs like crazy bus parts. The trailer still has the same systems from plumbing, electrical, HVAC, weatherproofing, tires, etc. Comparing apples to apples, an old trailer is going to have its share of gremlins.
We have friends that have spent over 300k for a 1st class toter and 5th wheel they are nice rigs. 300k is a lot to pay for a 5th wheel and toter truck IMO lol that is the price of a late model Prevost conversion. They have owned buses before and say the trucks and 5th wheels are a lot better for them.
I own Johns DL3 now you can tell they spent some big bucks on that bus lol now it is my turn in the barrel
I know that trucks and trailers have issues. However, my truck has a vehicle service contract on it, and I can pull into any Ford dealer to have it fixed.
Don, we took good care of our bus, as luvrbus can attest. We were blessed to have the finances needed, so that was never a concern. I just got very tired of the price tags attached to everything, even though finances weren't an issue. We had one of the best transmissions on the market, the Allison B500. It died on the road. 12K, by the time it was replaced and we had other parts updated "while we were at it."
The rear tag axle support rusted through. 5K later, I had it replaced. The air compressor went out. $1500 later, we were pulling out of the shop. We replaced the turbo as preventative maintenance, along with a few other things 4K later, we were done. The air clutch assembly on the radiator went out. 1K and overnight shipping from MCI, and I replaced it with a wind chill of -20. We rebuilt the brakes and undercarriage. We did the work at a friend of ours' shop. He worked with us some, but we did most of it. 8K for parts. Countless hours spent chasing air leaks, working on the AC before deciding to remove it and just use roof airs, etc etc.
For me, it was mostly the headache of keeping it in top running condition. It was nice travelling, don't get me wrong. But if I had to do it over again, with that group, I would be getting a toterhome. I still have lots of friends with buses, and some like them more than others. And buses aren't all headaches. Just make sure you plan on it taking a lot of money.
FWIW
John
@John,
Somber and sobering report. In your case, you had the means to pay up to keep up. Your comment about the cost of bus parts and service is the real sticking point for me. You know the saying being nickel and dime to death. As a bus owner the saying is similar but 100 dollar bills rather than nickels.
All your comments are bringing into focus what it means to qualify as a bus nut. Like other hobbies, the upfront cost to purchase a bus is really just the down payment with plenty of ongoing costs to be expected. Feels like racing sports that suck every spare dollar to keep playing.
Another point raised earlier by another member is the reality of the condition of a used bus being put out of service. It may be running alright at the moment but the toll from all those trips are stored up in every nook and cranny just waiting to start pouring out.
And like any used motor vehicle you can have everything up to date but there is no getting around it is a huge bucket of used parts.
Sort of common sense why a truly solid buses cost a 300 grand and up. At the low end where we generally dabble no wonder why one could rightly label them "beaters".
I guess all you can do if you venture onward is to do as much due diligence before buying and just pay homage to the bus gods for a good stretch of problem free road ahead
One of my friends in the bus charter business did an excellent job of maintaining his buses. But then when they got old, he talked about the buses being ready for a do-it-yourself bus converter. In other words, they were past the point of maintaining them and ready for someone to convert them as a retired bus. And that is what you are going to get when you buy a used bus. Some buyers are luckier than others and get one that requires very little mechanical work.
For myself, I bought an RTS with glowing testimonials about the company that owned and maintained them. Nevertheless, I rebuilt everything mechanical before i even started the conversion. I would rebuild something mechanical and go for a long test drive. I drove a metal tent for 5 years before I even started on the inside conversion into a motor home. That gave me a lot of time to think the conversion out and do the plumbing and electrical first so everything would be in the right place. Then I spent another five years building the inside of the bus. I can honestly claim I did the whole conversion except the paint job.
When you go through 10 years to convert a bus with no interior or mechanical issues when finished you build a bond with your bus. I love driving it more than camping in it, but when i am camped in it, I enjoy using it and love having everything working like it is supposed to. Its not for sale.
--Geoff
New isn't always better, old isn't always worn out.
We have a friend with an American Eagle - all paint & polish, not much substance. It is only a few years old, but even they noticed our 30 year old Newell is in better condition.
Our coach has 150k miles, theirs has less than 20k. They paid almost 10 times what we paid.
I had a very reputable shop check our coach out. All the chassis is in excellent condition with nothing showing any wear or damage. There are some issues, but they are minor (mostly ;) ) & I am having fun 'bonding' with mine.
My old 2 stroke gets mine to the campground same as his modern 4 stroke.
I did the Suburban pulling a 32 ft Airstream - we LOVE the MH so much more. Set up at the campground is so much simpler with the MH. When it gets to the point the maintenance over powers my bank account, I don't know what I'll do, but it won't likely be anything involving a trailer.
So, keep looking & don't assume the stereotypes are always right.
Your journey epitomizes the classic definition labor of love. I've read so much the source is a blur but it seems the better managed fleet managers carefully monitor the condition of the bus including regular oil samples for a very good read on the condition of the motor and the timing of upcoming issues. With millions in rolling stock, tracking and unloading buses likely to have a costly repair just makes good business sense.
@Kyle - At 150k, that is really low mileage on the coach and drive train for a bus. So, you should expect to have few issues. It is quite another if comparing to a retired passenger bus with a rolled over odometer.
With all the great input here, I decided to look at more already converted buses. At least I'll learn more about what's ahead.
Thanks
Geoff,
Your post brought back some good memories. When you said "I drove a metal tent for 5 years" it reminded me of when my kids were young and they called our coach "The tin tent" when it was at that
empty shell, plywood floor stage. Fun times :)
Don,
FWIW In the past I had a travel trailer, then a fifth wheel, now my Prevost. Which would I pick if I was to choose again? Bus Conversion.....by far !
If I had to go back to dragging a trailer, I would be envious of every coach I passed along the road. And yes, that even includes doing all the work of making an old charter bus into a new one, and then converting it myself. (Actually myself, my wife, and 2 very ambitious kids)
Joe
Oh, and one other thing.....Don't be afraid of a 2 stroke. I just recently finished a 12,530 mile vacation with mine. It purred like a kitten the whole trip. There's good stories out there too :)
Like Geoff, I bought a transit bus-albeit the older square design. My AMGeneral is very simple. I have replaced or rebuilt everything in the engine compartment, new air bags, converted air steering to Sheppard hydraulic. Strangely, the only thing not replaced is the brakes-which are still in great shape.
I bought the bus for $4000. About $100,000 later-still going strong. Going to Pahrump, Nv next week, then Tucson for the Escapees get together. Good Luck, TomC
Don all of the above is excellent and wise advice.
Each and everyone who has posted advice for you has different views of their ideal situation, but that is what makes us all unique and also makes the world go round!
Myself, I will NEVER go the Sticks and Staples (S&S) route!
I just don't trust the way they are built.
But I agree with all 3 sides of the bus end of the deal DIY, store bought, and someone else's conversion.
As pointed out the price of used completed coaches these days are LOW!
Now myself I will be converting one of my retired chater buses when the day comes as I all ready own them. And I know the coach inside and out having maintained them for years now.
What is going to be new to me is learning HOUSE systems and all that goes with them.
But I am willing to go that route to A) build it my way! B) build it as time & $ allow! C) because I've always been a knucklehead and done things the "hard way"!
Now that said if you want to look at all ready done coaches there are a LOT of places to look starting with craigslist, ebay, and many other conventional places people sell stuff.
Now also consider places like Buck's page Clifford suggested.
Here on BCM's Classified adds http://www.busconversions.com/bcmclassifieds/index.php (http://www.busconversions.com/bcmclassifieds/index.php)
BNO's Classified page and many other websites solely for the purpose of selling used coaches.
Just beware of ALL sites an do your homework! Don't be afraid to ask about this seller, that seller or even particular coaches.
Many of us here know about sellers with bad reputations (Sam Walker, Easter's etc) and as you noticed with the link you posted of the 2 cl listings YODA immediately told you who and what engine the first one had.
Now personally if I had the financing to jump "all in" and outright buy a pre-converted coach in the $50,000 range I'd seriously take into consideration Wulf's Dina listed here on BCM https://www.busconversions.com/bcmclassifieds/classified.php?n=2703 (https://www.busconversions.com/bcmclassifieds/classified.php?n=2703)
Yes I know the asking price is $9000 higher than your said budget. BUT it is an ASKING PRICE and maybe negotiable!
But it has some serious potential as it IS a 60 series, it IS a 102" wide coach, it is a 43' coach that is just as easy to maneuver as a 35' foot coach and easier than MOST 40-45' coaches (especially MCI's) I personally have owned the exact same model and can attest to it's ruggedness and durability! (not to mention looks good too!)
Wulf's bus has even been on my property once at one of the rally's I held. But I had to run a charter and passed it on the highway when he was headed to my place, and the next morning before I got out of bed (I drove ALL night) he headed out! Everyone that did tour it at my place told me it was a top notch coach.
Just my 2 cents!
;D BK ;D
I just had an idea, BK. There ought to be a "knucklehead" section at bus rallies. I'm sure that we'd get lots of people to park over there with us!
Yes a knucklehead section sounds good. than I would not have to park over in the corner by myself.
uncle ned
Quote from: windtrader on March 01, 2017, 03:57:25 PM
conversion, rather add more newer buses clients want anyway. With odometer reading 0079507, it must have flipped right? So coach has just rolled over a million?
It could also be that the speedometer failed and unit was replaced. A speedometer replacement should be in the logs for the bus if the company kept detailed records.
I have made close to 20 trips in my bus that were each over 1,000 miles and most of them were right at 4,000 miles and got home every time. I have had some minor breakdowns on the road, but only one required a mobile mechanic. My bus has never been towed on the road, nor been in a shop on the road for unplanned work. I have a mechanical friend who goes with most of the time. Between the two of us we have been able to fix every roadside issue (except when needed mobile mechanic) with some rudimentary knowledge and help from this board. The mobile mechanic thing was stupid. I keep a tub of spare parts like belt, fluids, fuel filters, and hose clamps and hoses. The hose clamps have been used the most of anything.
BK mentioned a DINA bus. I like a lot of things about my DINA bus, but many unique parts are hard to find or obsolete. Not a lot of DINA were ever made so very few in bone yards. The wear parts are available for the most part. MCI sold the DINA buses and they still sell part like windshields, brake parts, and so on.
@67 - Agree totally with the lack of interest in pulling a trailer. Also, the phobia and fear of 2 strokes is sufficiently suppressed. LOL
@TomC - ....and after $100k. You have far more fortitude than I on this "hobby". If I find myself a full timer, I may put greater value on the "house: rather than the "RV".
@B_K - Lots of good advice. Please check the email listed in your profile.
@etal - Reserve me a spot in the knucklehead area of the rallies. I surely qualify. :)
@belfert - If I continue to pursue the full on DIY conversion, I will surely study all the docs. I asked to fleet owner for them. Will carefully research.
John3:16 has probably had one of the worst bus experiences I've seen on the forum. And he's been burned a little by it. I don't blame him at all for ditching the sport. We've Fulltimed for almost 7 years now across two buses (both entirely converted ourselves including roof raise) and we have had our share of sideliner experiences but for the most part, I haven't wanted to ditch the bus. Sift carefully through some of John3:16's experiences. Some of those are preventable. For example:
1. he spent time and money trying to maintain the bus OTR a/c system. Most of the forum members on here for years have been suggesting that a converter just remove the OTR a/c and install roof airs. We did this on both of our coaches and we haven't had a lick of issues with our roof airs. They are crazy reliable. Didn't cost a penny to remove the OTR a/c and actually received some money from scrap to help pay for roof airs. That's a preventable expense.
2. Rust issues. He mentioned a tag axle support rusting through costing him $5000. This is a lesson to triple inspect the coach before buying to ensure you don't find rust. You will find several people here willing to tell you where the trouble spots were for certain years. Really really important. We bought our newest coach in Texas. Not a spot of rust anywhere. Literally. Don't buy it if it's rusty. This is a preventable expense.
3. He lost an air compressor. $1500 is a lot of dough. You can replace this yourself though and save hundreds of dollars on Labor. I have a spare rebuilt compressor sitting in a trailer so when mine dies, I'll have one ready to go. A rebuilt unit is in the $300-400 range. Why pay almost $1200 for someone else to do a job you could do in a long day?
4. Brake work. We just had our brakes redone all the way around and were out about $3000 that included some bearings replaced and swapping oil hubs to greased ones. We will not have to touch the brakes again for a long time. So long that if you amortize the cost over the years we will drive before needing brake work again, it's negligible. I don't know what undercarriage parts he rebuilt but brake work isn't something you'll do every year if you aren't driving it tons of miles.
The transmission failure is a total bummer. Trans or engine failures are not cool and I feel pain for those who do through it. The vast majority of us have never experienced any major system failure like this though. I'm feeling like John3:16's coach was run hard and put up wet. It's just one of those things...he had a rough go at bus life and it's really really good to hear honest people like him to keep things real about how it can go when you own one of these things, I just wanted to add a little perspective on the other side of the coin to so as to keep the pendulum from swinging too much.
We owned our 1984 MCI-9 for 6 years. We raised the roof 9" and converted it into a really comfy full time home. We drove it all over the country. It was slow, but amazingly reliable. Here are the issues we had:
1. Radiators were corroded and leaking coolant. Replaced them with rebuilt units I found on Craigslist. $1000 for the pair. I did the replacement myself (was a couple day job for me) and those rads will last easily 20 years using Detroit powercool coolant.
2. I snapped a cooling fan belt. Replaced that on the side of the road with the spare I always keep with me.
That's it. 6 years of full timing and 60,000 miles not a single issue besides those two.
We've owned our current 1992 102C3 for a couple of years now and have had a relay die which was a pain to find but a $15 fix, and we have as mentioned replaced the brakes and bearings because of a bad install at a truck shop. So far I'm out about $3000 for the brakes and bearing snafoos but again, I won't have to mess with those again for a long long time. As Geoff said, baseline your coach before you start converting so that you know your mechanical and chassis foundation is solid, then do the fun part: the conversion. Remember, forums like ours attract and put on display the problems. Very rarely does anyone pop on here to say "hey, I have had a bus conversion for 6 years and have had zero issues!!!!" Those are just not threads you see much. Most people find the forum because they had a problem and are trying to find a fix. Go into this with your eyes (and wallet lol) wide open but don't be scared of a very fun and rewarding hobby.
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LOL the words hobby and buses do not belong in the same sentence or paragraph,I have 2 of the hobbies at my shop and those so called "hobbies" are both a expensive fix ;D ;D so do your home work and cover all the bases.
These old buses were taken out of revenue service for a good reason like the out flow of cash was more than the incoming cash flow, simple math is not complicated.
If buying a bus with oil bath air cleaners check it real close owners do not service those well because of the trouble and that causes lot of engine problems
@Scott&Heather,
Thanks for providing some balance to the discussion. Totally agree that forums often attract folks looking for advice on fixing various problems while those experiencing no issues have little reason to get involved. Enthusiasts often gather to share their own experiences as well as offer support to others.
In every nasty story, there are lessons to be learned. One super key one is have a full and accurate assessment of the bus before you own it. And many of the main checklist items are pretty easy to assess.
I scanned every picture in the photos linked in your profile. It looks like the project was completed inside one year based on the background outdoor settings. Amazing how much is involved and how much other pairs of hands get involved. Surely, there were many many days not documented as you were working solo. Also, many other aspects of the build are not captured that would only demonstrate how much is involved. Labor of love is obvious for the owner but looks like extends to the whole team.
With so much to be done as shown in your pictures, it explains why there is such huge variance in conversion costs. You have done a super job while pretty much all DIY (and friends) and outfitting in a modest manner. It'd be no surprise if most agree you got the greatest value in terms of investment vs results.