Not even sure how to start. Over many years of venturing into new hobbies and interest, you bus nuts are the oddest folk. Number one advice - Go buy an RV, have fun, and save lots of money and headaches!
Well, y'all have reasons for hanging out here so let's just say mine qualify me as a nut too. ::)
OPTIONS
There are so many ways to do this, my idea is to identify a few major decision criteria that focuses the search for a bus. I have done a fair amount of research thus far and think this makes sense. I look forward to getting feedback from those with all the history and experience with this.
1) Buy a used factory RV.
It is amazing how inexpensive very clean, low mileage, used factory RV are selling for in todays market. There are so many good reasons for taking this route, especially for those who haven't lived on the road for months at a time. Exploring this option elsewhere.
2) Buy an already converted bus
Pushing the start button gets you rolling right away, remodeled as desired and as time/budget permit, and almost surely minimizes total cash outlay outfitting the bus.
Based on budget and market offerings, most options are DD 2 stroke in an earlier MCI coach, maybe an older factory conversion. Key consideration of DIY conversion is quality and amount of rework needed.
Even though it will cost you less getting "your" bus ready to go (redo included), significant risks lurk. Many a poor soul faced bank breaking repair bills for a fresh rebuilt motor. Whatever was saved upfront can be easily overshadowed with a major mechanical breakdown.
These older bus require more maintenance and cost. Everything is older: suspension, brakes, rubber, electrics. They only get more worn and unreliable meaning more cost to maintain and fix down the road
These older motors are less fuel efficient, costing more over higher MPG plants. The longer the road trips the more this matters.
3) DIY bus.
This option is guaranteed to cost the most, take the longest, consume the most labor, assume the most risks, and creates the most stress. Only a certified bus nut chooses this path. Not sure if this requires starting certified nuts or earn that along the way. LOL
OPTIONS - For bus nuts only.
My approach defines key criteria to develop short list of potential buses. Naturally, everyone wants the most roadworthy, dependable, fuel efficient, powerful, low mileage, and newest bus for the least dollars. Now, the compromises.
DD Series 60, pre-EGR DDECx power plant
This option answers a number of criteria: 2 vs 4 stroke, fuel efficiency, service and parts. Most agree a more modern 4 stroke offers the improved operational benefits over a 2 stroke. Some love the sound of a 2 stroke, the nostalgia and memories, vintage, and electronics free motors.
Advantages are affordable price (vs newer generations), electronics offering improved diagnostics, running history, and logging of motor functions and events providing improved maintainability and motor assessment. Pre-EGR means less complexity and fewer systems running the motor and less costly to maintain. Newer means improved chance of documented service history.
Allison B500 transmission
Often mated to the DD Series 60. Advantages are the 5 speed automatic, durability, and low maintenance.
40' Coach Length
This length offers the most overall benefits, balancing space on board and underneath, maneuverability and drivability, access to parks, etc.
102" Width
The added width increases comfort beyond the physical 6" while not affecting drivability or access to parks.
Height non-issue
Both of us being under 6' standard height is sufficient. 102" coaches seems taller which is fine. Added exterior height doesn't seem to create on road issues.
Budget 15k-20k
Availability - The more the better
The more produced means more parts and service options, better chance of getting quality service at lower cost.
Coach design, conversion considerations
Generic box is fine, not a priority. Coach offering the least complications during conversion is desired. Presently, not come across this is a concern or issue.
SHOPPING SHORT LIST
Using the criteria indicates something like a mid-late 90's MCI 102D3. Benefits include high production, many available in the US, broad access to service and parts, lower cost to operate. Other coaches suffer much lower production meaning more costly and difficulty finding service, especially if unplanned breakdown on the road.
Looking forward hearing from the vast body of knowledge and experience here.
Thanks
don
If you want a good coach you should buy a Prevost. They,re a lot better than the MCI's and Eagles. ;D ;D That statement should get similar results to throwing rocks at a wasp's nest. ;D ;D
No seriously, it looks like you have been doing some research. Keep it up and soon you will know want you want better than we do. The best advise I can give you is when you go look at a coach, you will be so excited about actually owning your own that you have a tendency to turn a blind eye to potential serous problems. Don't do that. Take time to think things over and remember there's always another one out there. When I was looking I almost bought a couple of real Junkers thinking "I can fix that". I'm sure glad now that I passed them up and ended up with the one I have. Good luck
The cheapest motorhome in tidy condition was $10k. My bus was $4k plus parts and labour.
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Go to pevostcar.com this is the support/parts etc for prevost. If you need a ID to example use W-6553 which is my unit number... Windshield sale now $179ea delivered(example).. Most brands (I have had 3) have parts if you work looking. You got to love the look and feel the attraction to what you pick. Bob
Pre EGR means not so much less electronics, but more importantly more power ;)
Keep looking for a bus already converted for sure. A D3 would be good. Although we enjoy our 5C at 35 feet is really handy. The most important thing is the condition of what you look at, not so much the age. Look for no corrosion, and well maintained mechanicals. Good luck.
JC
Quote from: Zephod on February 26, 2017, 05:04:05 AM
The cheapest motorhome in tidy condition was $10k. My bus was $4k plus parts and labour.
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Disclaimer: You have a retired school bus. There is a bit of difference between that and an OTR Highway coach and the prices reflect this.
Original Poster: you seem to already have plenty of good info rolling around in your head. Buses aren't the cheapest way to go. I can't explain it, but there's just something about owning one and living in one that just separates us from the sea of production RV's out there. At the moment we are parked in the largest Jellystone Park in the nation....and we are the ONLY coach bus. And it has really been a conversation starter with our neighbors. We seem to give tours of the bus every week. For the most part we don't mind. I have never lived "inside the box" per se so owning a coach bus is a unique experience my wife and I really enjoy. That being said........
If I were truly being practical...all sentiment aside, I would seriously (and may someday) consider buying a nice used Class A diesel pusher RV. Something nice...newell or the like. Better MPG, professional design, all done (no self conversion needed), etc etc etc.
Summary: buy a bus cause you like buses. If you just want a nice RV, buy a nice RV.
I would go as far to say the Prevost which is a good coach with a way over the top engineered air system is the best bus,no bus should have that many Norgren Valves.
I had one that used 5 Norgren valves just to close the friggn door.
The Eagle is by far the easiest and simple designed bus ever made and probably the best bus ever made but rust was the problem IMO.
Eagle had IFS( independent front suspension) since 1958 took the other Prevost till 1996 to try and developed one that gave the owners fits, I owned 1.The MCI is the work horse of the American highways though they have that market by huge numbers it has to be reason and the price is almost the same for a Prevost or a MCI
I love this place. You are so generous with your knowledge and happy to share.
@sixtyseven - Being here in NorCal, there are plenty of coaches nearby to go see. Fortunately, I'm in no rush so hoping to not do something impulsive on such a risky venture with so many ways to cause financial ruin. Having read enough really sad stories of broken motors alone, this alone keeps me focused on short listing potentials with plenty of documented history AND a professional bus mechanic survey. I find the busses that are commercial and still in service the best bets for having documentation and history including CHP and DOT inspections. Once a bus goes private all bets are off. Still need to be very careful since there is likely a reason a commercial bus is being removed from the fleet. Ideally a series of previous oil analysis reports would be available; haven't asked that as yet.
@Zephod - Glad to hear from you. My planned use demands the coach be reliable as can be. Planning length journeys far from home base, so really need to minimize trip halting mechanical problems while on the road. Unless I am misreading the current market, 15-20k is the lower end for solid and documented Series 60 powered bus.
@Robert - Will do. My research to date indicates Prevost are more expensive and beyond my budget. They do beam luxury rolling down the road; however, my criteria prioritize more mundane, utilitarian, and sadly practical qualities.
@lostagain - The current challenge is finding already converted D3 coaches. Increasing budget would find Series 60 or similar powered conversions but private ones are rare and factory conversions are very expensive. Will keep an eye out for them, just feel odds are not good. What is the market range for this kind of rig?
@SCott&Heather - OMG! Another non-conformist. I never use what others have as a criteria for what I want. I'm not looking for attention either but just want things that work for me. More about me. I am a die hard DIYer and have lots of experience and tools to bring to a bus conversion. I'll sub out what makes sense but I have no hesitation to take on something new either, expanding my DIY skills too.
Another key factor leading me toward a personal conversion is I really don't like the vast number of factory RV styles and features. Just seems like most are targeted to a market segment with very different tastes than us. What I envision is something I have never seen in pictures, although I am sure there are those with quite atypical layouts and styling. Additionally, being a minimalist I feel costs will remain on the lower end of the range. Shoot, truth be told, I can see taking a first road trip with a bed, a refrig, table for preparing and cooking with a camp stove , a couple of comfy chairs, and a card table to eat on. Really. Let the design evolve organically and speak to our true use and needs.
Lastly, I'd like to exploit the newest battery, inverter, lighting, and solar technologies to power the house power systems. Can't wait to take on challenge of designing the most efficient system. When one thinks about powering a car with batteries, it doesn't seem so far fetched to run a RV house system for a few days off the grid. Just think, no generator. I do think one can get a wrecked Leaf or other e-car and harvest the battery, transformer, and AC power charging system for less than a new 7500 Onan. Who does that?
@luvrbus - Will look at Eagle. For some reason avoided them in my research for some reason. I agree MCI is pervasive and that is why I want one as that means qualified service and parts (new and used) are available in the most places. I'm really concerned about finding a qualified 2-stroke bus mechanic if an unplanned break down. Not sure if I agree MCI and Prevost are similar in price.
I have friend in Phoenix that just bought 2 model E MCI's with all the bells and whistles he paid almost 700 grand ea and told me he could have bought the H-45 for 25k less but didn't want to deal with Volvo D13 engine so they are close in price
Quotealmost 700 grand ea
That sounds kind of expensive, way beyond my budget.
Quote from: sixtyseven on February 26, 2017, 01:14:06 AM
If you want a good coach you should buy a Prevost. They,re a lot better than the MCI's and Eagles. ;D ;D That statement should get similar results to throwing rocks at a wasp's nest. ;D ;D
No seriously, it looks like you have been doing some research. Keep it up and soon you will know want you want better than we do. The best advise I can give you is when you go look at a coach, you will be so excited about actually owning your own that you have a tendency to turn a blind eye to potential serious problems. Don't do that. Take time to think things over and remember there's always another one out there. When I was looking I almost bought a couple of real Junkers thinking "I can fix that". I'm sure glad now that I passed them up and ended up with the one I have. Good luck
I'm pretty sure that the only bad year for a Prevost was 1985. Beyond that, I have no further input. :) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I went to plenty of RV shows - I never saw a floor plan that 'fit'. I didn't see anything in my desired price range either.
Bought a PD4501 & spent years collecting the parts to build the floor plan that fit my needs/ desires. Finally, I had all the original components I needed. Then I was able to prepare a list the required components and where to buy them.
Then everything changed. One Friday night, we were able to look inside a ~30 year old Newell. WOW, the build quality was just what I had envisioned for my conversion. The mechanical systems were spot on - almost exactly what I had already planned for.
The next day, my wife found one on the internet for significantly less than we had budgeted for parts. I found another similar Newell locally to tour. then it was off to Texas to see the one on the internet. When I walked in, I KNEW it was the one for us. We bought it & have had no regrets. And, we are using it NOW!
The guys here are GREAT with their advice.
I LOVE the 8V92 in my Newell - Come to think of it, I would love any engine that ran as good.
Good luck in your search!
Quote from: eagle19952 on February 26, 2017, 12:36:12 PM
I'm pretty sure that the only bad year for a Prevost was 1985. Beyond that, I have no further input. :) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Prevost's are like a fine wine, they just get better with age! :-*
Most Eagles have hidden rust issues, have someone knowledgable of this check it out if you go that route.
Quote from: opus on February 26, 2017, 03:49:06 PM
Most Eagles have hidden rust issues, have someone knowledgeable of this check it out if you go that route.
And that is sound advice. But, be certain that your inspector knows what parts are structural, which are not and which are easily repaired :)
Quote from: windtrader on February 26, 2017, 11:47:47 AM
Lastly, I'd like to exploit the newest battery, inverter, lighting, and solar technologies to power the house power systems. Can't wait to take on challenge of designing the most efficient system. When one thinks about powering a car with batteries, it doesn't seem so far fetched to run a RV house system for a few days off the grid. Just think, no generator. I do think one can get a wrecked Leaf or other e-car and harvest the battery, transformer, and AC power charging system for less than a new 7500 Onan. Who does that?
I would suggest being not quite so keen to embrace all the latest battery technologies, at least not right now. Good ol' flooded lead-acid batteries, specifically get-anywhere cheapo golfcart batteries, are still the most cost-effective batteries in terms of $ per watt/hour. Lithium offers a lot, but it's not a mature technology, yet - Technomadia use lithiums in their 4104, but those folk are way more tech-savvy than I'll ever be! I have 2kW of solar, and that should be plenty for off-grid self-sufficiency wherever I intend to be throughout the year. My criteria is simple - no darned generator! Silence is golden. I get a kick knowing that my house batteries are always being charged whenever the sun's shining, wherever I am.
John
@kyle - Thanks, another buy already converted or RV story. Newell is very expensive so they are not on my list. If I may ask what sort of budget did you have for your diy project what you bought? So many comments tell me a DIY bus conversion will cost more than buying an already converted bus conversion, a fair apples-apples comparison. Comparing a bus conversion to a factory built RV seems hard to do unless you compare the really high end factory RV built on a commercial motor coach bus. Even then, it seems very rare for a DIY to put same level of uber quality features and amenities found in the factory bus conversions.
That said, I totally see the logic in something less than a bus motor and coach. I would never put enough miles on the coach to justify the need for a Series 60 for example. A smaller power plant would be fine as long as I can get a couple hundred thousand reliable miles.
@John, I did read through the Technomadia experience with batteries. He did venture early with no prior subject expertise and made numerous mistakes but through the blog he learned over time and seems to have it working alright. He paid way too much too for the packs. I design, spec, and build my own battery packs, BMS, transformers, and charging/float systems, selecting the optimal OEM cells while saving tons of money. When I get to that point, I'll check my hunch that pulling a system from a crashed e-car may be the fastest and cheapest way to go.
Lithium is mature enough to be found in many commercial applications. The Leaf and Volt have been on the market for 7 years. Working in Silicon Valley where there are thousands of e-vehicles gives me a different perspective. It truely is ridiculous how many there are. Nissan ran a $99/mo Leaf promo; the true kicker is you get a sticker to run in the HOV lanes. Seems like every other car is a Leaf.
There will surely be more advancements but it is proving out. This is for the house power only. Do not see any benefit on touching the starting system.
Thanks
Quote from: eagle19952 on February 26, 2017, 12:36:12 PM
I'm pretty sure that the only bad year for a Prevost was 1985. Beyond that, I have no further input. :) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yeah, But still not quite as crappy as the 78 Eagles :o ;D
I don't know your price range but there is a 1981-35 ft Prevost converted by ForeTravel for sale in Cave Creek AZ with 153,000 miles total, check C/L for the listing he asking $49,000 but I bet you can buy it for lot less .
There is also a 1980 Eagle built by B&B Coach in Vegas for sale on C/L in ShoLow Az 40 ft for 40K asking but he will trade and it is a nice Eagle just needs a little updating lol I know what he paid Gary to redo and convert that one 40k was the down payment
The options are overwhelming when you lose your focus for a second. There are so so many ways to go. Without some hard and fast criteria, I just spin around. That is why setting a few hard criteria helps me. For example, finding a bus with a Series 60 really narrows the search. Based on the wonderful comments here, spent the whole day off looking into the RV world.
Here is my newest thoughts.
option - 2-strokes.
Even if the motor was just factory rebuilt and highly reliable, it remains a 2 stroke and is less fuel efficient. It does seem about 2 mpg less than the Series 60, 5-6 vs 7-8. Qualified 2 stroke bus mechanics are fewer and farther between. Luck plays a big part in an unplanned breakdown on the road. Odds are far better finding a qualified and reasonable priced DD mechanic to fix and get parts quickly and less costly. Mostly missing from 2 stroke conversations is projecting time a dozen years ahead. Today a common quote is finding a good "old-time" 2 stroke mechanic as they haven't taught it for years and most do not have practical experience. Time only increases this reality, only making it even harder to get service and parts. Resale potential erodes as well since fewer buyers are willing to own a vehicle that's harder to service. 2-stroke is not going to pull up over the Sierras like a Series 60.
option 4-strokes
Until the past couple years, it seems a solid, used Series 60 was beyond most DIY budgets, so lots of bus nuts here are comfortable with the older 2 strokes. As time moves forward, more Series 60 buses become available at more affordable prices while service and parts remain in ample supply. Again, look ahead 10 years and a Series 60 is going to be easier to get service and parts. Resale potential will likely be better than a 2 stroke.
option - RV and already converted bus
After many hours looking again at many, I just don't like what I see. I'm convinced the styles I'm considering are going to be custom built.
Here is a link to a few snapshot offering design elements I like. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gruym9ocml1ylr2/AAD76SEdZ_xOrQZbMI0VI5xla?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gruym9ocml1ylr2/AAD76SEdZ_xOrQZbMI0VI5xla?dl=0)
Another style considered would be a sleek euro look. Think Ikea.
A 2 stroke gets 7 ish mpg. 8 ish for a S60, at least in my experience. A couple miles per gallon difference is not a significant factor while travelling. You'll spend more money on other things.
Are you a mechanic? 2 strokes aren't hard to maintain and fix with the Detroit service manual. If you are not, any bus, old or newer, or sticks and staples is going to cost a lot to maintain and repair.
Power: I souped up my 6V92TA with bigger injectors and a turbo to match, to give me 350 hp and 1050 ft/lb of torque. I pass most loaded semis up the hills. A bus with a 8V92TA will outrun many S60s. So don't overlook the DD 2 strokes.
Don't overthink this too much. Go look at bus conversions for sale. Some are old, some are new, some have 2 strokes, some 4 strokes. As long as it is in good shape, not rusty, well maintained upstairs and downstairs. A good one will last you the rest of your life. And don't worry about resale too much, because no matter what, it will be worth only a small fraction of what you have in it come time to sell...
Good luck.
JC
QuoteDon't overthink this too much
JC, Thanks a lot. This I am guilty of big time. I plan on doing as much of the maintenance as possible but know major work will be a barrier. If motor needs to come out, I don't have the proper gear to remove safely. A two ton motor qualifies as well as other heavy parts I'm sure.
2-stroke vs 4-stroke. There are so many more options if keeping 2 strokes on the list, far fewer with 4-strokes in my budget. When need to pay for pro service, what is your opinion about cost differences and finding qualified service on the road? My impression is a 2 stroke is going to cost more in parts and quality service if needed on the road. Maybe i am overthinking an unplanned breakdown but the stories I have read make me want to get this right.
The rare occasion when the engine has to come out on a road trip is if it dies completely. That only happens once every several million miles. Hopefully all the preventive maintenance, including an overhaul/rebuild, is done at home to prevent breaking down on the road. If it happens, you should have road side assistance such as Coachnet to get towed to a diesel shop. Of course a shop to fix a 4 stroke like a S60 is easier to find than one for a 2 stroke. I think any town of significant size has a diesel shop that will fix a Detroit 2 stroke. Not cheap, easily $20k for a rebuild. But fixing a S60 isn't any cheaper. If you start with a good engine and maintain it properly, like having the correct antifreeze in it and changing it at the right intervals for instance, you should not worry about a total break down. At most it will be stuff that can be fixed in a few minutes, or 2 or 3 days at most. These buses were designed to run 24/7 with heavy duty drive trains that, in revenue service, were only shut down every 250 hrs for oil changes. The more you use your bus, the better it runs.
JC
I agree with JC. I have had my bus for 11 months now. I spent the first 8 months putting in a new interior before departing on my maiden voyage. That was 3 1/2 months and 7000 miles ago. The only thing I did to the engine was changed the fluids and then slapped on new tires and loaded it up.
The old 2-stroke roars to life in a touch of the button and purrs like a tiger all day long. She may crawl up the hills, but she tightens up and pulls like a sled dog to the top. I like the old school metal body and classic looks of the older busses. I would never discount the classics with the 2-stokes. They are fun as hell to drive.
My budget was $40 to $50k.
My Newell is a '87 model which is referred to as a classic ,102 wide, 40ft with a tag axle, ~155k miles. A 475hp 8V92. 300 gallons of diesel fuel, 125 gal fresh water & 145 gal waste. 12 gal water heater, 12.5 Kohler generator, etc.
It goes up hills just fine.
Newells are built on their own frame/ chassis. But, they only build about 30/ year, so selection is limited.
I have seen several Newell coaches sell for less than $25k - and they were in usable as is condition, so don't be too quick to discount them. Wanderlodge is also a very good platform with the support from a large owners group.
My Newell weighs 36,000#
Wonderlodges use steel body siding instead of aluminium & weigh in around the 45,000#
From my recent experiences/ difficulties in getting my cars repaired, I am so glad my 8V92 is pre-computer. Computers have really improved performance of engines, but also add another layer of complexity for DIY owners.
2-strokes are still very popular in the military and marine applications. MTU is still making parts & new engine assemblies, so the 2-stroke is far from dead.
Any engine that runs good will work fine. The older you get, the more your knee will appreciate an automatic transmission. With mechanical house systems already installed, the interior can be remodeled to suit your needs without breaking the bank.
Relax, save up more $$$, travel to see any good coach you find in your price range and HAVE FUN with the search.
@lostagain - Agree a major breakdown on the road is rare, can be really expensive, and financially draining. There are no guarantees in life, right? Practically, one can practice due diligence well to get the best estimate of the condition of the running gear. When compared to cars, rarely does one worry about a well maintained car throwing a piston on a road trip. Thanks for putting in perspective.
@Astro - Trilled to hear your progress. Hoping to follow a similar path and same joy!
@Kyle - Appreciate the details. ECM in busses, same as with cars. Old oldies are really easy to DIY but are accompanied by decades older engineering and design. On the other hand, the ECM better protects motors and provides much more useful diagnostic logs so better to know the history as well as diagnose issues.
I totally get the approach of starting with an already converted coach. When you put all the stuff you need in a spreadsheet and read the bottom line it is really a huge wakeup call how it adds up. There are so many items that are overlooked on the back of a napkin when thinking about starting with a passenger coach.
The feedback here is very useful to me. It really is making me think hard and rethink my key criteria and target bus. Other than the main concern about 2 stroke parts and service, looking for an already converted 2 stroke makes so much common sense including the trill of taking a road trip right away. Once in use, one can thoughtfully make interior alterations as desired.
Quote from: windtrader on February 27, 2017, 07:14:44 PM
On the other hand, the ECM better protects motors and provides much more useful diagnostic logs so better to know the history as well as diagnose issues.
That is true --IF the ecm is working -- AND IF you have something that can read it.
I have a wonderful car in the driveway that even the dealer can't determine why the engine runs perfectly but electronics don't work.
Quote from: windtrader link=topic=31558.msg354648#msg354648 date=1488219124
Here is a link to a few snapshot offeringcolor=red]design elements I like.[/color] https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gruym9ocml1ylr2/AAD76SEdZ_xOrQZbMI0VI5xla?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gruym9ocml1ylr2/AAD76SEdZ_xOrQZbMI0VI5xla?dl=0)
Another style considered would be a sleek euro look. Think Ikea.
Spoken like a true BusNut. nothing $$ can't solve :)
Don -
Why don't you get out and go take a look at a few bus conversions?
For example: https://sacramento.craigslist.org/rvs/6021021613.html The particular powertrain in this one makes it a real hotrod!
There's also a Facebook page "Bus Conversions For Sale" that has a ton of listings - including a really nice MC-8 that's in Fairfield.
You need to get away from the computer and all your over-thinking and go take a look. All the planning in the world is nothing compared to actually seeing them in person and gathering more intelligent intelligence.
This coming weekend in Lytle Creek, CA (just N of San Bernadino) is a rally with 13 coaches. The following weekend, in Pahrump, NV, there's going to be another rally, this one with 30 coaches. Grab one of those gambler special flights to Las Vegas Friday after work and come out to see all the various flavors that will be in Pahrump - about an hour's drive from McCarren. Would be well worth your time - IF you're serious.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Hi RJ,
I do look at them. It's not like I sit on the Internet all day. I did see that one. That bus just came onto CL. Agree it looks great but there are many 2 stroke conversions that are potential buys if I was convinced about going 2 stroke; it is a big decision criteria.
There aren't many 102D3 with Series 60 under 20k. I found 102C3 and other 102 wide 2 strokes. I spoke with Complete Coach Works today and they have DL but not 40'. Sent me some info on Van Hool but not interested. I plan to visit later this week in Alameda.
Just curious. How many newer nuts are building based on 4 stroke buses? What percentage start new projects today on a 2 vs 4 stroke? Why or why not? Is ECM something to be avoided? Is there some thinking 4 strokes are not as reliable or easy to find parts and service? Too costly vs olde 2 strokes? How many here drive factory built conversions based on commercial bus chassis?
I like your practical advice about doing some trial trips before jumping all in. As this is a very niche market/hobby, you need to plan on holding onto what you buy. Following the market for some months now demonstrates it is very hard to sell a bus. Very few actually sell. I was surprised when one did sell but it was still in service with current inspections and maintenance in a small fleet, so I suspect it was sold for use as a transport, not a conversion. Most of the 2 stroke conversions sadly do not move.
Bought my Prevost XL Mirage 2 stroke Silver 8V92TA/5 Speed Auto over 6 years ago from the original owners after Fella passed away. Converters drove it down to Wyoming, brand new, for professional conversion (Cole Conversions, long gone) from Prevost Factory. Set foot in it in 1992 when owner came by my yard to show me his prize. A little under $500,000 for conversion. It was never outside as it has spent it's life in a cover,enclosed barn. They had it in a climate controlled barn for 20 years. 75 degrees. Chassis/motor had a little over 50,000 miles. Has 88,000 on it now. I paid $52,000 for it and and have wrapped up over $25,000 over the years with all the upgrades, fridge, flat screens, motion sat, and that don't count new tires, batteries, Cruiseair AC work, and air leak chasing and parts from Prevost numerous times and still will go down in a week or 2 in back. Still looks new from outside and in and still under cover.. 2 Strokes runs like a scalded dog. No problems. With these you buy, drive, enjoy and when you sell you hope you can recoup a little back. I don't think I would get anywhere close to what I got in it. Run Central and Gulf Coast area of Texas and if I ever have trouble , Stewart Stevenson is where it will go. They still have a couple mechanics that will work on them. I check/call occasionally to see if old guys have died. If I buy another one or upgrade, probably will go 4 stroke but this 2 stroke doesn't scare me. Been a good one. Good luck.
Yup, analysis time is now verging on wasted time.
The busnut socio-economic situation is buying whatever condition/age fits the budget.
From purchasing a factory conversion, to a stationary, blown out relic to live out of on the welfare.
Same rules.
And periodically, a busnut chooses one that simply caught her fancy.
Whatever mechanicals come with it, that's what you get.
Don't be fooled by the busnut excuse: You do NOT convert a bus to go camping.
You convert a bus to convert a bus. To fool with mechanicals, design your own stuff, have something to do. A fun hobby, ONLY if you and the significant other knew ahead of time that camping is the sideshow.
Are you camping or are you bus converting?
As noted, fuel economy difference is meaningless between engines. If you can't afford 6 mpg, you can't afford 8 mpg, and more importantly, you can't afford to maintain the chassis in a safe condition. Go buy 24 gallons of diesel engine anti-freeze for a flush and fill? Tires at $500 a piece? Every 100 miles, the spread is theoretically 4 gallons of fuel. Stopping for a good burger and fries is a more serious financial decision.
Most busnuts do not drive thousands of miles, they drive hundreds.
And finding competent technicians for any engine, any vehicle, is tough. You will be screwed by crappy technicians. car, boat, bus...
Go on the truck forums and read about the number of guys blowing up fresh S60 "re-builds"...
Armchair rhetoric, the chattering classes find amusement in mumbling about engine types, and when pressed, change the subject...
Age and availability, higher end DIY busnuts buy coaches as they roll off the end of useful commercial service, typically in the 15-20 year old time frame.
This busnut competes with the lowest tier of commercial operators for available coaches.
The D model is just getting old enough to be in this group, hence their current rarity.
Why are the buses not selling?
The good bus conversions do not get advertised. Everyone knows someone, and the good coaches are passed along the social circle chains.
Same for buying a seated coach, the good ones are moving, the sitting ones keep sitting.
Beware the small lot guy who thought he'd get rich with buses... once he gets rid of the ones he has, he'll not buy a bus again... he got burned, and he'll burn you trying to get out.
If it is being advertised, right away, the question is why wasn't it gobbled up?
Time for dreamy typing is drawing to a close, now it is time for action, the next report should be about the bus conversions and busnuts you have met, and some pictures.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Lots to consider when choosing your systems. I believe in the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). All my systems are manual-meaning I have to through a switch or valve. Since I don't have a lot of electrical needs-up and beyond my 3 rood airs, I do have 50 amp service-but only use one leg of the plug. My bus is wired straight 120vac along with my generator. Then I don't have to be worrying about balancing the load between the two legs when the generator is running. Granted that means I only have 50 amps at a campsite-but that never has been a problem-even with 2-10gal water heaters.
Before you try something, run it past us. I'm sure there's someone that has tried it successfully or not. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: buswarrior on February 28, 2017, 07:22:18 AM... Don't be fooled by the busnut excuse: You do NOT convert a bus to go camping.
You convert a bus to convert a bus. To fool with mechanicals, design your own stuff, have something to do. A fun hobby, ONLY if you and the significant other knew ahead of time that camping is the sideshow.
Are you camping or are you bus converting? ...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Yep, and "bus converting" is a commitment. If you buy a bus and all the equipment and cannot (or choose not) to finish the conversion, you're lucky to get 10 cents on the dollar if you sell off. *You* know what it costs but what it's worth to anybody else is about nothing.
If you buy an already-converted bus, you won't lose so much when you want/need to sell; you'll lose a lot, but not so much.
It's a harsh reality but that's the way it is. (DAMHIK)
BH, NC USA
@muldoonman - What you have is clearly a classic definition of finding the diamond in the rough. If your bus had 55k from new, then it is a basically a new bus, so naturally any commercial motor is going to be as good as new. If warrantied on mileage only, you'd have years left to drive worry free. It must be one of a handful stored for 20 years in climate controlled conditions. No surprise your experience has been totally uneventful.
@buswarrior - So much wisdom in your advice. Thank you.
Mechanical hobby or camping lodging? Excellent, insight, and probing question. Motivations. At present, it feels like 60/40, desire to unmoor from the house and start spending more time on the road, staying a week or a month, here or there, and returning home for awhile. Being a lifelong DIYer, all things including auto mechanics, electrical, construction, plumbing, etc. a conversion seems like a huge but doable project. My shop has most all tool except heavy vehicle mechanics like a dolly for a one ton plus motor and drive line parts weighing hundreds of pounds. I'm not planning anything fancy nor trying to recreate any of the luxury fit and finish in many RVs, so I figure it should be a rather uncomplicated build. That said, even with the best planning, I'm fully prepared it will cost twice as much and take twice as long and suffer through plenty of reworks. Just the nature of the beast.
Nice reminder that bus maintenance costs are substantial and multiple times more costly than any automobile. Thanks for bringing reality back to the discussion that average annual miles a hobby bus conversion typically see is quite minimal. In the back of my mind, this sort of rattled around. I ask myself how confident will this rig goes 50k without major issues. That is like 10 years of driving. All the other costs fall in line with that sort of reference. Then one says how much maintenance is needed for every 5k miles, a year on the road. This really does remove a number of issues such as mpg difference, tire costs, fluid changes. On average, with some luck, must years will not even incur that expense. Never know, buying right, one might even go 30k and not have to do much at all.
Yeah, I did wander into a couple commercial trucker forums and that was a bad idea in hindsight. That is where I got worried about motors just blowing up on the road. The constant remedy was good PM but that is a fairly costly proposition. But truckers have very different objectives than a hobby bus nut.
One concern I have about getting a newer coach is as you say, some are still in service and coming out. You don't need to be a genius to figure out which bus in the fleet is going out. Most know which ones are likely to have a big spend for some major service the soonest. Who wants to buy that one? And you can bet the ones on the low end of the price range already suffer issues or are really near some event sure to make the owner really sad. But there are buses that do come on at 300-500k so plenty of life left but certainly the price reflects this.
What started me looking at the newer ones is the CARB DPF enforcement and catching a deal on one that operators felt was not worth the investment. May be a bit late now but still do find some not converted and forced off the road. Once converted to a bus title, it can get back on the road but this is a low percentage market.
Agreed, that insights from you all, the bus nut community has offered enough guidance to get me to the next step. If I decide that 2 strokes are in play, I've got plenty to pursue. If 4 strokes is the target, things will progress more slowly, especially if I stick with a 40'. There are many more 45' 4 strokes available and I just don't want that long a bus.
Thanks again to all.
Will post updates on buses that look worthwhile.
Since I was 40. Kinda reached that 2nd childhood back then, 20 yrs ago. It began with VW busses. My first, 69 model. Replaced the engine, drove it from Cody Wyoming to to Mississippi when I moved back home to reside on family farm. My 2nd bus, 65 barn door. Holes in the floor and busted up glass.
Even back then, I always wanted a BIG BIG bus. Its just something about a bus. When I came across my Silverside on Ebay, I had to have it. I must confess, with a WDub, it was easy to keep it goin with bailing wire, hand crafted wooden parts, and dirty fingernails. I may not be diesel engine savy, yet, no computer, no high tech add-ons. But when I drive it down the road, everybody stops and looks.. you pull up to fuel up, all want to talk about the Silverside. A true attention getter and conversation piece. And all this while in the conversion stage. And in a few years, with a couple thousand dollars spent, aluminum polished, with cherry red painted roof and trim, and matching 1971 VW Karman Giha in tow, This old guy will be the show stopper at the fuel stop.
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If you're in CARB territory, if you have a single bus for personal use RV, you're exempt from smog laws. Good Luck, TomC
One other thought to leave with you as you contemplate diving off the deep end, ideas of what you can do to your bus are endless. This is a before and after of our current 1992 102C3. We have an 8v92 turbocharged Detroit set to 500hp and yes I've had her running 85 mph before. Roof has been cut off and raised 8", stainless has been swapped out for aluminum flat panels to give it the "newer" look, front and rear caps are renaissance caps, 24.5" Alcoa rims add a nice touch. we converted this mostly in 13 weeks over a memorable summer in my in laws backyard. This is our second self conversion. Our first coach was a 1984 MCI 9 which we raised the roof 9" on and converted it from a seated coach into a home we lived and traveled in for almost 6 years. We love this life but I don't recommend it to everyone. Anyway, enough chatter, here's pics of our MCI 9 and after that the before and after of our current coach, the 102C3:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170302/cd64aea5903bd26bc0a97f6abbe0b9a4.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170302/245477f868e684aad72b58115bde82a1.jpg)
And finally a link to over 900 photos of our conversion process with our first coach. I have pics of the second coach conversion but haven't had time to upload them yet.
https://goo.gl/photos/GVtNRniG2RBXPuXW9
Scott
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@Tom - Thanks for the CARB tip. In fact, that is what I am trying to leverage in "buy low". Buses are sitting or going out of service due to operators deciding not to do the DPF conversion. This means those coaches are no longer viable commercial vehicles in CA. Even churches, not for profits, private schools, etc. must register commercial. The used bus market already suffers low demand, this further limits the potential buyers. Yesterday, the owner told me he has sold them off outside CA, so there is some market outside CA for them.
The keep it simple thing makes sense. Keep it simple, keep it cheap. I know I went overboard on mine turning it into a home with rooms and doors but heck, wood is cheap. Don't think I've put more than $500 of wood into my bus. I dread to think how much my conversion cost me. I've not tallied it all to be honest though I have 90% of the receipts.
As for DEF, my work bus goes through DEF at a rate of knots. I reckon on having to put in a maintainence report every 2 weeks or so that it needs DEF. My work bus does about 150 miles a day, of which I drive about 100 miles (I don't do the midday run).
A DEF conversion might save your bus from the scrap heap. Germany just outlawed older diesel cars because of emissions. Thus, if you have an older diesel car in Germany, you're now not allowed to own or operate it!
I'm trying to keep my conversion simple but keep coming up with neat projects to add to it. The latest is extra cabling to get the reversing horn working. Defeated on that temporarily by the lack of somewhere to route the cables. I'll sort that out soon enough though!
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If you have an electronic engine with EGR, then you can add the DPF. In order to go the full route to get both DPF and DEF, the complete engine has to be replaced with new.
If CARB ever gets to the point that I can't run my 3406B Cat anymore, I'll just have it replaced with a Cummins ISL, since the RV rating is 450hp and 1200lb/ft torque-more than enough power. Good Luck, TomC