I'm currently fighting the city of San Jose, specifically an ignorant officer and judge's claim that my bus conversion is a "commercial vehicle"). I had this happen in court, almost amusingly, if it wasn't for the $500 fine:
QuoteDave: <explains that the bus has been converted to a motorhome>
Judge: If that's a motor home that's the biggest motor home I've seen in the 67 years I've been on this earth.
Dave: Would you like to see the registration showing it's registered as a motor home?
Judge: No. I'm looking at the photographs. I don't care how it's registered. You're looking at a bus the size--that's bigger than a Greyhound bus.
It is amusing to note that he somehow determined it's size from looking at a photo just showing the bus. A bus that once *was* a Greyhound. I didn't know it had gotten bigger.
Anyways, it got me to thinking - the judge's ignorance over the bus conversion community and market doesn't keep it from existing. And I was wondering - how many bus -> motorhome conversions are there? Both on the road and retired? I couldn't figure out any good way (without getting bulk info from the DMV) as to how to estimate this.
Any thoughts?
Hi;
In order to educate the judge, show him a copy of BCM. He would then lean
in your favor. Hope your bus is registered as a motor home. That would
also guide him in the right direction. (it's not a commercial vehicle)
Good luck, Merle.
You should have asked him if he was aware that a Supreme Court Judge tools around the country in one very similar!
Well - I'm not talking to the judge anymore, the judge has already (foolishly) decided that something "big" must be commercial, even though the law is very simple and clear on this issue.
Ask me sometime about how I feel about traffic "judges" if you can't already tell.
The case is going to the appeals division of the Superior Court, and I expect to win, because appellate judges are generally intelligent and law-minded.
But it still raises the question - how many bus conversions are there?
Quote from: daveola on February 19, 2017, 07:28:31 PM
Well - I'm not talking to the judge anymore, the judge has already (foolishly) decided that something "big" must be commercial, even though the law is very simple and clear on this issue.
Ask me sometime about how I feel about traffic "judges" if you can't already tell.
The case is going to the appeals division of the Superior Court, and I expect to win, because appellate judges are generally intelligent and law-minded.
But it still raises the question - how many bus conversions are there?
What makes you think you will win on an appeal? The Superior Court most likely won't even read your appeal papers. That is my experience over many years. You probably will get a letter saying "The decision of the lower court is upheld".
--Geoff
Since the judge is ignorant in this matter, you should have referred to it as a diesel pusher RV. That might have clicked in his brain. Also point out that it has RV plates, and it does not require a CDL. Keep on going up the court system until you reach the judge with a bus conversion, and get a lawyer (you should be awarded legal fees). This sounds like the California registration hassles that others have experienced. As far as how many conversions are out there, use the total number of Bus Conversion Magazine subscribers and/or the number of members on this board. Not everybody on the board has a conversion, but not everybody who has a conversion is on the board, so 5015 would be a good documented guess.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on February 19, 2017, 08:12:25 PM
As far as how many conversions are out there, use the total number of Bus Conversion Magazine subscribers and/or the number of members on this board. Not everybody on the board has a conversion, but not everybody who has a conversion is on the board, so 5015 would be a good documented guess.
Then don't forget all the thousands of skoolies - OK, I know that most folk here don't think of them in the same light as their own conversions, but they are technically bus conversions nevertheless. I think the total number of conversions may surprise us. I suspect that for every nicely-converted MCI or Eagle or whatever, there may be several "others" also out there. It's just that their paths usually don't cross ours.
John
There is also a Blue Bird board.
Prevost Board
Eagle Board
BusGrease monkey Board etc.
The reason some people have a hassel in California is because they go in all excited to the DMV and tell them they have a Bus or Bus Conversion they want to register. That makes it a commercial vehical to them. It is a Motor Home... Privately owned and not for commerce...Just saying... :o ;D.
Dave5Cs
You may not win that case even registered as a RV when it exceeds 26,000 lbs the weight laws apply the same as a commercial vehicle in most states.
Here in AZ we get a 8 cents gal break on fuel but at 26,001 lb with 3 axles we pay the extra 8 cents just like a commercial truck.
If the weight limit sign on a street says no trucks over 26,000 lbs the same applies to us RV'ers it's a gray area for sure BTDT in Arkansas for a $250.00 ticket.You cannot always hide behind RV license plates on a converted bus,they run the VIN numbers it will come back a XXXX brand of bus
My dad had the exact same argument with a toll collector 40 years ago.
I don't know about the number, but it was the first time I ever saw "the bird". Dad was mad.
You might also point to every single national campaign ever run. Candidates, staff and media travel in buses. Just look at McCain's 2008 campaign. Surely, the court will understand that.
McCains Eagle wasn't registered as a RV it was registered as commercial but was a RV and AZ doesn't issue RV plates all of our plates are the same for all vehicles.Mine was registered as commercial till I changed it and dropped from 800 bucks a year to 65 bucks for 5 years here
Bring up the FMCA, established in the early 60s when most "motorhomes" were converted busses,vans,or trucks. This spawned a worldwide industry and the laws to deal with it that this judge is ignorent of.>>>Dan
FMCA has long ago abandoned people with bus conversions he not getting any help there
Quote from: daveola on February 19, 2017, 03:47:44 PMI'm currently fighting the city of San Jose, specifically an ignorant officer and judge's claim that my bus conversion is a "commercial vehicle"). ...
Would the judge rule that a "stick and staple" RV is automatically a "commercial vehicle"?
And this is why California is regarded as being full of nutters. I used to live there.
Its similar to Europe (where I grew up)- you live to work, get taxed heavily and you live to obey strict regulations which are usually strictly enforced.
Good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on February 20, 2017, 06:36:59 AM
FMCA has long ago abandoned people with bus conversions he not getting any help there
And to think I still have that emblem on the bus. That is sad. However, one thing I noticed..."Family" doesn't include mother and daughter. Went to a rally and the women were looking at us in a strange way.
Quote from: Dreadnought on February 20, 2017, 06:55:57 AM
And this is why California is regarded as being full of nutters. I used to live there.
Its similar to Europe (where I grew up)- you live to work, get taxed heavily and you live to obey strict regulations which are usually strictly enforced.
Good luck
Noticed you don't put where you live now? Nutter?? The more we can keep out the better for us, LOL ;D ;D ;D :o
Hi All, yes as daddys girl eluded to, the logo/symbol of the FMCA is a converted bus, a Flxible Flyer I think, next court date, I'd bring BCM magazine, motorhome and FMCA magazine as exhibits and if its a female judge tell her size doesnt matter! lvmci...
I'd do better than show the Judge a copy of BCM!
I'd contact Gary Hatt and ask him if BCM would kindly send 2 or 3 copies to the judge as a gift to educate him.
Who knows he could become one of us too!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: lvmci on February 20, 2017, 04:13:55 PM
Hi All, yes as daddys girl eluded to, the logo/symbol of the FMCA is a converted bus, a Flxible Flyer I think, next court date, I'd bring BCM magazine, motorhome and FMCA magazine as exhibits and if its a female judge tell her size doesnt matter! lvmci...
LMAO! Yep, that would work ;)
All joking aside,
what Circuit Court has jurisdiction? for all the help you all give me, I
might actually be able to help with this one.
You're not in Federal Court, but the 9th Circuit is the most liberal in the country, and also the most overturned by SCOTUS. If it's registered as private, and you have no CDL, ask your lawyer about filing a complaint in Federal.
It might sound crazy, but you've got a potential valid Federal argument, that could end up being very significant. If you appeal at the State level you might end up having to appeal more than you should. JMHO...
Thanks for the advice, though I'm not all that worried about losing the appeal, I am confident I will win - this isn't the first time I've hit the ignorance of the traffic courts and had to go to an appeals court where they were intelligent enough to read their own laws.
And I don't know about Arizona, but in California there is no weight limit to passenger vehicles, so the 26,000 lbs doesn't matter here, not to mention that if the bus is stripped of seats it can actually go under 26,000 pounds.
You might want to check this out. There are weight limits here as you can see and Axle used on the vehicle you are intending to drive.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/web/eng_pdf/comlhdbk.pdf (https://www.dmv.ca.gov/web/eng_pdf/comlhdbk.pdf)
Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 22, 2017, 06:08:52 PM
You might want to check this out. There are weight limits here as you can see and Axle used on the vehicle you are intending to drive.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/web/eng_pdf/comlhdbk.pdf (https://www.dmv.ca.gov/web/eng_pdf/comlhdbk.pdf)
Nope. That's the commercial handbook. Not commercial.
So I'm curious how you ended up in court? Isn't your bus stranded at a shop waiting for a new tranny?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes but there is the non commercial Class C license requirement also in that book and what you can drive with a regular class C standard license also.
Dave
CA has axle weight limits on RV's, probably like always when the plate and vin number was ran by the officer the MCI bus showed up they always do
Not mine. Mine shows up in DMV and Ins as MCI MH. The only thing they want to know is where are the other letters in your Vin and then I tell them about prior to 1980 the MCI's only had 5 places. ;D
Quote from: Scott & Heather on February 23, 2017, 08:20:53 PM
So I'm curious how you ended up in court? Isn't your bus stranded at a shop waiting for a new tranny?
I'm fighting a bogus parking ticket from over a year ago. An angry cop came out and demanded I move from a legally parked spot, I asked him why it was illegally parked and he didn't like that, so he made up $1000 of bogus violations (such as lying about missing reflectors on the bus when the bus had the required reflectors).
I've managed to get all of the citations thrown out except for the commercial vehicle nonsense, which is funny, because that's the easiest one to prove, but the judge is an idiot.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 23, 2017, 11:09:51 PM
Yes but there is the non commercial Class C license requirement also in that book and what you can drive with a regular class C standard license also.
Good point:
QuoteYOU MAY DRIVE:
With a nonCommerCial Class a Driver license:
Any vehicles under Class C.
Any housecar over 40 feet but not over 45 feet
(Note that weight is not mentioned)
Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 24, 2017, 09:52:48 AM
Not mine. Mine shows up in DMV and Ins as MCI MH
Same here, there's a big difference between BU and MH in California
Dave, my 68 5A only has a 4 number vin. :)
OK Ed it is 5 numbers and one letter.
Dave if you have a California Drivers License it is a class "C" so you do have one
Not a CDL
Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 25, 2017, 08:50:11 AM
Dave if you have a California Drivers License it is a class "C" so you do have one
Not a CDL
Oh right - misread that, sorry. Edited my post.
That's so frustrating. Fight this ever step of the way.....I'm all for supporting the BLUE but some of them need a good spanking.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Scott & Heather on February 25, 2017, 04:59:46 PM
That's so frustrating. Fight this ever step of the way.....I'm all for supporting the BLUE but some of them need a good spanking.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yup. Some are lazy too. I was driving a work bus at 50 on the interstate (bit naughty as I'm supposed to do 45). Another school bus was doing 55+ and the copper behind ignored both of us and passed. I know he knows how fast we were going because their in car radar is always on.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: Zephod on February 26, 2017, 01:51:34 AM
Yup. Some are lazy too. I was driving a work bus at 50 on the interstate (bit naughty as I'm supposed to do 45). Another school bus was doing 55+ and the copper behind ignored both of us and passed. I know he knows how fast we were going because their in car radar is always on.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
If your on the interstate you shouldn't be going 45 mph! The cop had more sense than whoever says school buses should do over 45 mph on an interstate!
At that speed you are more of a danger to other drivers, the kids on the bus and yourself than a bus going 65 mph because you are just asking for some idiot who is either playing with their phone or some other distraction or impaired to rear end you will doing the 75-80 mph most people drive on interstates these days!
;D BK ;D
I do think the 45mph restriction is strange but it's a federal regulation. Most schoolbusses are governed to 55. I've had 70 out of mine, downhill but it's governed to 55.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I just realized that I had never updated this.
I won the appeal, easily enough. I have been down this road before.
Small court judges are often fairly small minded, and appeals are needed for an actual ruling of law, especially when you are being harassed by the people who are supposed to be enforcing the law, instead of breaking it.
Ah well.
But the question remains! How many bus conversions are there!?
I guess we'll never know.
Your belief that Justice is served by appealing is the opposite of what I have experienced in traffic court. I have spent many times the original fine to appeal an injust decision from the lower court-- paying for a transcript plus whatever else they tack on only to receive a form letter saying "The decision of the lower court-- is upheld". Courts are the cockedest hierarchy in our system of government and they need to be overhauled and watched closely.
You can also add conversion manufacturers to the list of converted buses as well. even thought I don't necessarily like to because the buyers didn't get an old bus used as a bus and convert it, instead they usually purchase the rolling chassis from Prevost and build it custom from there. So they are essentially the same exact chassis being used for buses, just never made it to the "bus" phase of its life and went straight to RV instead. So you could possibly bring some literature on their build process as additional proof that yes this is the same size as a bus and was never commercial so they do exist.
Again - let me make this clear.
I do not need proof that there are buses out there.
I have already won my case.
I do not need to prove anything to any judges at this point.
I'm just really curious how many of us there are out there?
How many of "us"...
Vehicles or busnuts?
Self starting, mechanically inclined, teach ourselves to do the things we don't know how to do, do the work on the coach ourselves...
Vs having no idea and buying the conversion and paying someone to work on it, until my money runs out...?
Bus, converted later, converted earlier...
Do we count an older Newell that has been lovingly restored by the new owner's hands?
The devil is in the definitions...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I'm curious how many buses there are, whether converted by "us" or by pros.
And I know that there are many ways to read it - I'll take any estimated numbers for any of the definitions you can come up with!
Changes of title from bus to motorhome must be recorded by the DMV authorities - I don't know about in the States but in Europe there's a Public Information Request process whereby anyone can apply to receive statistics and data of that sort
Jeremy
That's an interesting idea, though I shudder at the thought of trying to navigate the DMV, considering how bad it is here in California.
Looking up some initial statistics, it seems they only publish vehicle types by coarse grain, such as commercial or non-commercial truck.
It would be great if we could see how many vehicles have gone from BUS to MH.
The bus-to-motorhome thing is one of those numbers which probably has never been published or reported anywhere before because no-one official has ever cared about it, but the number almost certainly exists in a computer somewhere and could be outputted instantaneously by a programmer running a simple database query.
I've never done it myself by I believe getting hold of that kind of information here is (in theory) just a matter of filling-in a form, and the relevant public department or body are obliged to respond within a certain amount of time - or else give some 'national security' type reason to justify why they won't provide the information. Journalists obtain data like this all the time for their news articles, so if it happened that you knew anyone in that area they might well be the best person to ask how to proceed
Jeremy
Quote from: Jeremy on December 15, 2018, 03:42:55 PM
Changes of title from bus to motorhome must be recorded by the DMV authorities - I don't know about in the States but in Europe there's a Public Information Request process whereby anyone can apply to receive statistics and data of that sort
Jeremy
Some (like mine) were never titled as buses. They were converted on new shells and titled directly as motor homes. Or house cars, depending on the year and/or state.
Would be interesting to see the numbers created vs. the numbers still on the road.
Of course, going by registration numbers alone would give a false picture - many buses are still around and either functional or in a state where they could be made functional but not registered. I believe that most states will allow a privately owned vehicle to be unregistered if not being driven, so it would be nearly impossible to know how many are out there in total based on registrations. Not just the ones slowly rotting in a driveways somewhere, there are also buses being used as permanent houses parked in RV parks and trailer communities.
I'd also be curious of the many school bus conversions how many make it more than a few years before they stop being registered and fall off the radar.
It might not be that hard to get a reasonable idea from existing title/registration data. If you can get a list of RV by manufacturer, you'll get close pretty fast. Of course this is by state but an MCI registered as an RV is a strong indicator it was converted at some point. Conversion only might also show up like Prevost RVs.
RV industry organizations likely possess these numbers so another way to get at them.
Current registration date would not show anything for all the buses out there which are not registered. My guess is that there are many out there not showing as registered anywhere, and even if one pulled years of data there would be no way to determine the actual numbers. An unregistered bus could be under current conversion, rotting away in a back field, or already in the scrap bin.
Quote from: windtrader on December 15, 2018, 05:43:45 PM
It might not be that hard to get a reasonable idea from existing title/registration data. If you can get a list of RV by manufacturer, you'll get close pretty fast. Of course this is by state but an MCI registered as an RV is a strong indicator it was converted at some point. Conversion only might also show up like Prevost RVs.
Yes, agreed - that's the way to get around the conversions-from-brand-new-shells issue
Regarding the still-around-but-not-currently-registered issue:- again I don't know the US system but here in the UK vehicles are always "registered" because registration is simply a record of ownership, and transferring the registration is part of the selling a vehicle and only if a vehicle is scrapped there's a procedure to de-register it. Since the registered owner is liable for any vehicle-related fines they are highly motivated to ensure these procedures are followed, so there are very few unregistered vehicles about.
But 'registration' in the US may mean the same as 'taxed' here, which is an on-going charge (paid monthly, six-monthly or yearly) paid by the owner to actually use the vehicle on the road. Again the system here is closely controlled and owners who aren't currently using their vehicle on the road have to register it as OFF the road - known as SORNing it (Statutory Off-Road Notification) - or else receive an automatic fine. My own bus has been SORNed for several years straight whilst I convert it, while my '77 Trans Am is SORNed during the winter months and taxed during the summer months for example.
So in the UK at least you could get the DVLA (our equivalent of the DMV) to search their database in various ways and supply exact number on conversions-on-new-shells, conversions-that-were-once-buses, conversions-still-registered, conversions-currently-on-the-road, conversions-currently-SORNed, conversions-that-have-been-scrapped, etc
Jeremy
In the US, at least in the states I've lived in, registration is much more loosey-goosey than it sounds like things in the UK are. When one purchases a vehicle they usually get a bill of sale from the seller. Take that to the motor vehicle department, and they'll issue an official title to the vehicle. The title is nothing more than a state-certification that establishes ownership of the vehicle.
Under usual circumstances a new owner will want to title transferred as soon as possible, but not always. I sold a motorcycle to a friend about 10 years ago, and just recently I learned that he had not yet transferred the title to his name. I had a feeling that was going to happen, so shortly after selling it I contacted our local motor vehicles office and requested that they take my name from the official records for this vehicle. That was done, and for the past years the vehicle was officially ownerless, all the time it was used in two or three different states. The reason he never titled it in his name? He didn't want to pay the taxes and fees.
Usually the vehicle gets registered at the same time that title is issued, but it's possible to do a title transfer without doing registration.The registration is usually done annually, but for some vehicles (usually commercial or larger) it can be monthly or quarterly. The registration is what gives one a plate to put on the vehicle and makes it legal to operate on public roads.
Some vehicles, such as those used exclusively for farm use or on private roads, will never be registered. I've also encountered some governmental agencies that will operate vehicles for years without an official title or registration - an example is a '52 Suburban I purchased from the Illinois forestry department years ago which they had received from the National Guard. The vehicle had not been titled or registered for many of the years it was operated in the State Forest - apparently a paperwork oversight. Was a mess when I went to get title and registration in my name.
My point? Simply that many of the out-of-service buses parked around the country will not be on any official record.
Quote from: richard5933 on December 17, 2018, 03:51:48 AM
Some vehicles, such as those used exclusively for farm use or on private roads, will never be registered. I've also encountered some governmental agencies that will operate vehicles for years without an official title or registration - an example is a '52 Suburban I purchased from the Illinois forestry department years ago which they had received from the National Guard. The vehicle had not been titled or registered for many of the years it was operated in the State Forest - apparently a paperwork oversight. Was a mess when I went to get title and registration in my name.
As a similar example from here, I bought a Vortec 350 small block and it's gearbox from a Chevy step van that had spent all it's life running-around the USAF base at Lakenheath in Suffolk. It had been brought over from the States and never registered for use on UK roads, which made it effectively unsellable when the Air Force wanted to dispose of it after a standard 5 years or whatever. So rather than selling it as a running vehicle it went, along with all the other USAF vehicles from Lakenheath, to a contracted scrap merchant nearby who no-doubt paid pennies-on-the-dollar for them and broke them for parts for sale to people like me
Jeremy
Other than filing for a FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) by state there would be little chance you would get close. My guess is 3,600 Bus Conversions By looking at these 3 boards.
https://www.nfoic.org/coalitions/state-foi-resources/state-freedom-of-information-laws
There are around 900 Eagles registered in the US we checked that out a few years ago,makes no difference if it is titled as a RV or not the Vin number will always show it as a bus when the DMV runs the Vin
One thing that surprised me when we were fulltiming is the number of people that we met that had buses but did not use computers.
We drove across and up the country and only saw two other buses the whole time. any I have ever talked to on the road when asked if they were on the Bus board they said what bus boards? LOL
In the states, vehicles that may end up on the road again are supposed to be registered as PNO (planned non-operational) for a small fee, otherwise you'll be in for it when you try to register them again.
There are certainly going to be some illegal vehicles out there (not registered) but I don't think that'll hurt the numbers much.
If it's sitting in a field rusting away and not registered PNO, then it's probably done for, and isn't something I would count as a current 'bus on the road'
So - maybe filing 50 FOIA would get us the numbers in the states. I'll check with one of my journalist friends and see if they think that such a check would succeed.
How did we come up with the 900 Eagles number?
And in California (and I'm presuming most states) if the bus has been converted it's likely to be an MH instead of a BU. If your vehicle is still BU, then you probably need a CDL (commercial driver's license) to drive it, so the incentive is high to re-register it as an MH. I'm sure there will be a couple that are illegally driven without a CDL, and some CDL owners who left it as a BU, but those numbers are likely to be fairly small as well, I would guess.
I think these "planned non-operational" registrations you speak of vary by state. I bet some do not have them at all. (the good ones' in my opinion) Here in Illinois if you are late renewing plates, it's a one time late fee of $20. So if you decide to stop driving a vehicle, and 30 years later, re-register, it's a $20 late fee. Antiques plates, and all trailers are exempt from any late fees.
Antique buses are exempt from CDL requirements here as well.
The origin of title (manufacture) Vin will always belong to a bus that is Federal not a state regulation,some states issue 2 titles one for the chassis and 1 for the conversion,I have a RV with Idaho plates that has 2 titles
Interesting comment on the antique plates. My bus will be 25 next year (next month). Something to think about since I'm still waiting on the title.
Jim
Quote from: luvrbus on December 18, 2018, 11:45:51 AM
The origin of title (manufacture) Vin will always belong to a bus that is Federal not a state regulation,some states issue 2 titles one for the chassis and 1 for the conversion,I have a RV with Idaho plates that has 2 titles
For vehicles being converted from a new shell/chassis, wouldn't the cert of origin list vehicle type as something similar to chassis cab, bare chassis, cutaway van, or chassis cowl, like is done for conversions built on a van or truck chassis? I imagine that Bluebird did something similar when they built the Wanderlodge. Or are you saying that they'll all list what they built as a bus even if it's not yet a bus and will never be one?
Quote from: richard5933 on December 18, 2018, 12:56:24 PM
For vehicles being converted from a new shell/chassis, wouldn't the cert of origin list vehicle type as something similar to chassis cab, bare chassis, cutaway van, or chassis cowl, like is done for conversions built on a van or truck chassis? I imagine that Bluebird did something similar when they built the Wanderlodge. Or are you saying that they'll all list what they built as a bus even if it's not yet a bus and will never be one?
Prevost conversion shells are listed as a VIP for RV's but it still has the Prevost serial number as the Feds require the day it was made with letters to tell the style ,all buses were except GM they never built a conversion shell
Quote from: luvrbus on December 18, 2018, 01:25:12 PM
Prevost conversion shells are listed as a VIP for RV's but it still has the Prevost serial number as the Feds require the day it was made with letters to tell the style ,all buses were except GM they never built a conversion shell
They may not have made something sold as a "conversion shell", but they did sell their shells. Ours was ordered from GM as an empty shell - seat delete, bathroom delete, and parcel rack delete. The only thing inside was the driver's seat. It was delivered directly from GM in Pontiac to Custom Coach. I've yet to see the Certificate of Origin for our bus, so I cannot tell you what it said. Now I'm curious what they called this type of sale back then and how the certificate read.
Any idea how to find a copy of the original certificate?
Be careful of antique plates.
Most jurisdictions have quite stringent rules regarding their use, and usually lower licencing fees.
Same for the accompanying collector insurance policies.
The rules rarely are compatible with how a busnut uses the coach.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Regarding antiques. Yes as Warrior stated, we are talking original seated coaches. Not converted motor homes. Mine are all registered/insured this way. Here we are required to sign a DMV affidavit limiting use on antique plates. Antiques plates are about the only fee this state (IL) has not outrageously raised. (so far!) I have no issue complying with DMV/insurance restrictions based on how little I am able to use the coaches.
I have the GM list of RTS buses ever manufactured, and there is actually a an RTS manufactured for a conversion shell listed in 1979-80. It gives the buyers name and location, and specifically names it as a conversion shell. So, maybe you can get the same information.