I have reached the point in the build on our MCI 96A3 where we need to do the Insulation.
From everything I have read and seen, it looks like the best way to go is Closed Cell Spray Foam insulation.
The Bus is located in the Tampa Bay area of Florida, does anyone have any recommendations for a company to use to have this professionally done in the Tampa Bay or Central Florida area?
If needed I could easily bring the bus to them to have it done or there is certainly room where the bus lives.
I have contacted a local company that does refrigerated Trailers and they were not even remotely interested in doing it, when I pushed them a little I was quoted a ridiculous price.
If I do end up doing it myself are there any recommendations for which kit to use and what size kit would cover the inside of a 96A3?
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Peter
Peter have you replaced the floor yet? Hard to work with out it. Are you removing the lower aluminum sheets? I removed and insulated mine and replaced. I went with sheet foam but spray was my first choice.
When I was at your point, I screwed in 1x2 fir strips horizontally on 24" centers. This did two things-one gives a sub base to screw the wall covering to and two-makes for a thicker wall with the spray foam covering all exterior metal to make 2.25" of spray foam. Where I attached the overhead cabinets or where I want to anchor kitchen counter tops, I increased the 1x2 fir strips to 1x3 ash strips for extra strength. With the ceiling I used 1/8" plywood to easily bend with the curve of the roof with 1.5" oak strips covering the seams.
I highly recommend spray foam, and even more highly recommend you have a professional do this EXTREMELY nasty, dirty, smelly job. Well worth the money. Good Luck, TomC
Have it done as it is very messing shaving off the high spots and you will need a respirator for the fumes it gives off. Foam It Green is where I bought some small kits but the larger kits can run several hundred dollars. It takes some practice to estimate how much it will rise as it cures, so too much and you will be shaving off a lot of excess waste and money.
Peter, I'll repeat a question from an above post, "are you removing the lower interior panels that are riveted on?" Please do indeed do this and have them spray foam there too. Trust me on this. As for the floor, don't worry about laying the floor yet. I just laid some 4x8 sheets of plywood down and the foamer walked on those. Don't rush to lay your floor if you're not ready. But do know that the foam gets everywhere. And I mean everywhere. So if you don't want overspray in your luggage bays, don't leave them open. And you are much better off having a pro do this. I'm a big do it yourselfer but this is a major nasty job and you'll waste time and foam trying to do it yourself.
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 19, 2017, 05:23:52 AM... this is a major nasty job and you'll waste time and foam trying to do it yourself.
Good photo, Scott, that explains a lot. Did you do the spray foam on/around the floor rails and then put your final floor down on top of the underfloor structure and the insulation?
No, I laid down 3/4" tongue and groove Advantech sheets onto the metal (actually I laid some thick sill seal foam on all the metal to provide a bit of thermal break and prevent floor squeakage), then on top of the Advantech sheets I laid premium 2x4's flat (you can see them in the photo) and then had the former fill flush to the tops of the 2x4's. Then I laid my final Advantech 3/4" tongue and groove sub floor over that. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170119/ed3549a0b9688d8282261ccf7c13d091.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170119/8247f10e5add5319752c262641d4cb9a.jpg)
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 19, 2017, 05:23:52 AM
Peter, I'll repeat a question from an above post, "are you removing the lower interior panels that are riveted on?" Please do indeed do this and have them spray foam there too. Trust me on this. As for the floor, don't worry about laying the floor yet. I just laid some 4x8 sheets of plywood down and the foamer walked on those. Don't rush to lay your floor if you're not ready. But do know that the foam gets everywhere. And I mean everywhere. So if you don't want overspray in your luggage bays, don't leave them open. And you are much better off having a pro do this. I'm a big do it yourselfer but this is a major nasty job and you'll waste time and foam trying to do it yourself.
I have not yet removed the lower interior panels that are riveted on, but I plan to.
I have heard that those panels are structural in nature, so I would like to keep them off for as little time as possible.
I would also like to foam in most of the voids under the floor.
I have inquired without success into most of the local insulation company's, I guess they just don't see any profit in it, or they see it as a liability.
As much as I would like to have it professionally done, my only option might be DIY.
Peter
the diy kits ( the 2 part 1's ) work good but be ready as the dry time is FAST or buy a lot of tips . my son has used then 2 times and you have to learn to have everything ready and as you go give the gun a light shot well you are moving to the next spot so it does not harden in the tip . they set fast so you can see how much it swells , so it is better to do 2 coats then 1 if you can , as not to put it on to thick and have to grind it off . it is not like the spray can stuff
the problem is it may cost the same $ in the end as a pro doing it ? only difference is you can go at your own pace
yes get a mask
I had my MCI done by a pro in 2005 at a cost of $ 1000.
dave
Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 19, 2017, 07:36:04 AM
No, I laid down 3/4" tongue and groove Advantech sheets onto the metal (actually I laid some thick sill seal foam on all the metal to provide a bit of thermal break and prevent floor squeakage), then on top of the Advantech sheets I laid premium 2x4's flat (you can see them in the photo) and then had the former fill flush to the tops of the 2x4's. Then I laid my final Advantech 3/4" tongue and groove sub floor over that. ...
Thanks! That makes it really clear -- from the first photo, it looked like the sides of the 2 x 4s were the metal structure under the floor. What a great floor combo that appears to be - no wonder you're warm in 0 degrees over Christmas and New Years.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on January 19, 2017, 10:32:54 AM
Thanks! That makes it really clear -- from the first photo, it looked like the sides of the 2 x 4s were the metal structure under the floor. What a great floor combo that appears to be - no wonder you're warm in 0 degrees over Christmas and New Years.
Of course, it might cause problems down the road if access is needed to anything below the floor. ;)
Peter it was good meeting you at Arcadia @ John Vedder's Eagle.
Don't give up because one company doesn't want to do it.
Keep calling around. You'll find someone. .
If not go the bypass route and contact a trailer repair shop and ask them what they can get it done for you.
Also there are companies that spray new houses while being built.
So there are options, keep pushing you'll find someone.
;D BK ;D
The spray foam guy that did mine did spray foam roofs and he did mine on a weekend. Just a thought of another place to check. He didn't grind it down he just sprayed it and I had to do that part and it is messy too.
Melbo
DoubleEagle, nothing to access on the top side of the floor. Nothing at all. All access to the air lines and wiring is via the luggage bay roof panels.
Peter, removing those panels are not going affect your coach. I had mine off for months. So don't lose sleep over that. That metal is thinner than you think and it's aluminum. If you can't find a foamer and end up doing it yourself, just wear a good quality Tyvek suit and goggles and mask. I can't tell you how nasty this stuff is when it's wet and sticky. Grinding it down to level with the framing is major work....you'll hate every minute of it but someday you'll be proud :) do post photos...you're awesome for even considering doing this yourself. Hats off to you
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I have used the part kits in my conversions. As said it is messy. Prep the whole area, cover anything you don't want to get the stuff on like the dash area, windows etc. Suit up, good respirator as it smells and can affect your breathing, goggles and hat or hood. Once you start spraying put down a light layer because it will expand and it sets up very fast and gets hot as it cures. If using the large kits keep spraying don't stop for too long as the tip will start to set up and harden. If you have a few high spots like I did I just used a hack saw blade to cut them off , I tried not to grind too much as it is really messy. Like I said above cover everything you don't want the stuff on and to make for easy clean up. Good Luck.
I just finished spray foaming the baggage doors. I had a water line freeze last winter driving in cold weather, even with the water heater and the furnace going downstairs. I used 5 rattle cans of the professional Right Stuff. That is for 4 doors on my 5C. Filled all the cavities, leaving out the latching mechanism. I sprayed the rods with silicone so the foam wouldn't stick to them. I might get ambitious one day and cover the foam with sheet metal, maybe not.
Spray foaming the front under the dash would be good too. Albeit a lot of work to be able to get everywhere.
JC
Quote from: scanzel on January 20, 2017, 04:02:27 AM... If you have a few high spots like I did I just used a hack saw blade to cut them off , I tried not to grind too much as it is really messy...
Thank you, Steve. That's good info. But I wanted to add a question. Back when I was a useful, productive citizen (you know - back before I got my snout in the Gummint trough and became fodder for them retired-peoples' Death Panels), we used to make prototype parts from styrofoam, pack sand around them, and pour molten aluminum into to the sand to make sand-cast parts. The foam would vaporize and the metal would fill the shape. But to shape and cut the foam, we'd use a plain electrically-heated hot wire -- it would cut through the foam like butter. Actually, we used a couple of differently shaped wires and the most useful was just a straight wire between a wooden "bow" that held the wire straight and tight. Would this work on sprayed insulation? It was super easy and made fine, accurate cuts and shapes on the foam that we used.
Thanks, BH
Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 19, 2017, 08:50:09 PM
DoubleEagle, nothing to access on the top side of the floor. Nothing at all. All access to the air lines and wiring is via the luggage bay roof panels.
Nothing in the engine area to access? At least in an Eagle, there are many things that are easier to get to from the top, and the baggage bays provide access to only part of the wire & pipe runs.
I don't see why a hot wire as they call it could cut off excess foam but then again be care full of fumes and possible catching fire. The professionals use some sort of motorized saw. Saw this on one of the home flip shows. An old electric knife may work too.
I am prepping my bedroom to foam. We are experimenting with fishing leader wire to make a hot wire to cut the foam. Our plan is to build something like a huge compass, like you draw circles with, to hold the wire on it's tips and then ride on the furring strips. The wire gets hot at 12vdc and 2 amps. But, we haven't gotten to the point to check the temperature of the wire. More as we learn more.
Art
I use ni-chrome wire from an old electric heater for a hot wire, and use 12 VDC to make it heat. You vary the length of wire to get the proper heat level.
...double post....
The spray insulation foam is polyurethane foam rather than polystyrene - the way the the two types react to heat (ie., if you cut them with a hot wire) is very different - polystyrene melts very happily and cleanly, whereas polyurethane burns and gives off noxious gases (including cyanide I believe)
Also - some insulation foams are actually fire-retardant as well - not sure how those types would react if you tried to use a hot wire on them
Jeremy
Quote from: peterbylt on January 18, 2017, 09:34:43 AM
I have reached the point in the build on our MCI 96A3 where we need to do the Insulation.
From everything I have read and seen, it looks like the best way to go is Closed Cell Spray Foam insulation.
The Bus is located in the Tampa Bay area of Florida, does anyone have any recommendations for a company to use to have this professionally done in the Tampa Bay or Central Florida area?
If needed I could easily bring the bus to them to have it done or there is certainly room where the bus lives.
I have contacted a local company that does refrigerated Trailers and they were not even remotely interested in doing it, when I pushed them a little I was quoted a ridiculous price.
If I do end up doing it myself are there any recommendations for which kit to use and what size kit would cover the inside of a 96A3?
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.peterbylt.com%2FMCI96A3%2Finside.jpg&hash=a06c28ed031aa02a3bac6bc1997fa25c861122f4)
Peter
Peter .I am guessing since you are in Florida ,spray foam may not be a major item.This is just a suggestion,if you don't mind a road trip.The farther north you go the more people you will find that does this.For instance ,Greenville S C has several people that does this .
Quote from: Jeremy on January 21, 2017, 03:46:52 AM
The spray insulation foam is polyurethane foam rather than polystyrene - the way the the two types react to heat (ie., if you cut them with a hot wire) is very different - polystyrene melts very happily and cleanly, whereas polyurethane burns and gives off noxious gases (including cyanide I believe)
Also - some insulation foams are actually fire-retardant as well - not sure how those types would react if you tried to use a hot wire on them
Jeremy
These different types of foam raise serious questions of safety within our coaches should there be a fire. Some of us have more fire exits in our coaches than others, and some, have too few. Everyone should be aware of what type of insulation they have, and plan accordingly. It seems to me that it would be prudent to have exits on each side of the coach, and on the roof, and a way for everyone in the coach to reach those exits (and be able to open them).
Quote from: Jeremy on January 21, 2017, 03:46:52 AM
The spray insulation foam is polyurethane foam rather than polystyrene - the way the the two types react to heat (ie., if you cut them with a hot wire) is very different - polystyrene melts very happily and cleanly, whereas polyurethane burns and gives off noxious gases (including cyanide I believe)
Also - some insulation foams are actually fire-retardant as well - not sure how those types would react if you tried to use a hot wire on them
Jeremy
Good info, Jeremy. Thanks.
Just on the subject of escaping burning buses, there was a very nasty coach fire in Italy just yesterday in which multiple children died because they couldn't get out:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38703536 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38703536)
My own bus has a rear escape door but also came equipped with little hammers mounted periodically along the overhead baggage racks which were intended to be used by passengers to smash the windows or the skylights in an emergency
Jeremy
Art do let us know how that goes I've always been curious.
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If you decide to DIY, you already got good advice to cover EVERTHING that you don't won't foam on. That includes yourself. Full body suit including shoe covers, head cover, and respirator. The foam is second only to POR 15 in terms of permanent adherence. If you get it on you, you will wear it off. Don't ask how I know this.
Walter, this is OT, but you should post at least one more time. I looked at your stats today :) lol
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 24, 2017, 05:14:30 AM
Walter, this is OT, but you should post at least one more time. I looked at your stats today :)
Yes, I know, the great number of the Beast of Revelation in Chapter 13, but 13 is my lucky number - 13 letters in my first and last name, and I came back from Vietnam on Friday the 13th, twice! As far as 666 goes, that was the message that was intended to remind you (once again) that you have a lot of combustible area inside the bus, and precious few exit's. So, unless you want to hang with 666, please get those windows & exit's improved above all else.
Lol. Message received loud and clear :)
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I am now thinking that I should do this in a couple of different stages.
Stage one, I would like to Spray Foam insulate the voids under the floor before I put down the plywood.
Part of this is over the Engine/Transmission area, Although there is a metal barrier, I am concerned about the combustion properties of Spray foam, a few of the companies offer a closed cell product with a fire retardant rating of ASTM E-84 Class 1, this product has a lower R value and a higher price, but I think for the areas in the floor it would be worth it, I measured out the floor voids and came up with 80 square feet, so a DIY kit for 200 board feet should cover it.
One of the proposed products.
http://tigerfoam.com/sprayfoaminsulation/order-products/spray-foam-insulation-kits/tf-200fr-tiger-foam-fast-rise-200-board-ft-kit/ (http://tigerfoam.com/sprayfoaminsulation/order-products/spray-foam-insulation-kits/tf-200fr-tiger-foam-fast-rise-200-board-ft-kit/)
Peter
how they look at 200 board foot is 1" x 12" x 200 ' but this is in a perfect world and the 1 we live in is not . it would be a nice start to see how far you can get out of the system
dave
I had our foamer foam the metal floor voids first too. He filled in the spaces over the wheel wells also. Then I laid floor, then studs, then he foamed the floor sandwich and foamed the ceiling and walls and front door (don't forget the front door
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Roofing company's in Florida used to be the best option for spray foam. Oil or tape the surfaces of the ribs and other areas you do not want foam on. A good sprayer will leave little that needs to be cut off. Hand saw and 60 grit on a disc sander should do it quickly.
Professional foamers-to grind after foaming, make their own circular grinder. Picture a 10" aluminum disc with many short bolts screwed into the plate with lock nuts. Looks nasty, works well.
You do NOT want to use any kind of sander. It just makes really fine dust that gets everywhere and takes a long time to settle. The above grinding tool and saw work best. NO electric wire cut off. Although the foam now is no where near as toxic (at least in California) it is still a stinky job that you should be completely covered up.
American Foam did both my bus and truck. He is completely covered up with his cuffs taped shut. He wears a helmet with several lenses taped on that he can rip off to clean and his helmet has a hose coming out the back that is attached to an old Kirby vacuum cleaner outside the bus that pushes clean air into the helmet. Highly recommend you have foaming done professionally. Good Luck, TomC