So update on our bus currently in the shop here in Texas, our drive axle spindle I guess is damaged from a bearing being too loose. They think it might be OK for us to drive on but they said it will probably continue to leak oil slowly out of it. They mentioned something about having someone weld it and build it back up and then machine it down, is there anyone that anybody knows that can do something like this? What are my options? Do I need to replace the entire axle?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They weld them in the BIG Truck world .
Do it to it and forget about it .
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161128%2Fb8671bebbe11d079d851693ed80eb6f4.jpg&hash=88b0f39e697962ebddad140e68eb9ab63eb7933b)(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161128%2F07c315bb659958611692cd3ed2c1b6bf.jpg&hash=f39deda661396e87a2bdd98917d43c8cbf789c83)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok I can see where some hammering from ?previous repair and cutting off bearing (not pretty though, needed several more coffees)
On the go side what kind of measures do we have to use, and what out of round shape is there here.
Being the pic is here, don't want to pry but anyway its a slip fit and basically clearance as the inner bearing would so comparing that is a good starting point.
bummer for sure
Floyd
Scott they are talking about spray welding where they will build it bigger by spraying it with Metal and yes it will make it bigger and then they machine it back to normal size and smoothness and hardness. Work very well if they know what they are doing...It is done all the time in big machines industries.
Dave
I am surprised the shop can't recommend a local company that can repair the spindle. Axle Surgeons is a nationwide company that does this.
I damaged a tag axle spindle when the bearing failed. My friend knew a local company here in Minneapolis that repaired the axle for a reasonable price.
When I talked to Axle Surgeons, they said they can fix the rear axles, but would not weld on the steering axle.
They said they could cut off the bad end of the axle & weld in a new spindle. A top of the line repair for sure.
Sad to hear you need this repair, but at least it isn't the whole axle that is bad.
Good luck!
Quote from: kyle4501 on November 28, 2016, 05:15:14 PMWhen I talked to Axle Surgeons, they said they can fix the rear axles, but would not weld on the steering axle.
They said they could cut off the bad end of the axle & weld in a new spindle. A top of the line repair for sure.
Sad to hear you need this repair, but at least it isn't the whole axle that is bad.
Good luck!
I'm confused. His first post said "drive axle spindle" but the photo looks like a front steer spindle to me, too. What's up?
I've had both crankshafts and axles spray welded a number of times without any failures--but there is always a first time I 'spose. Jack
http://axlesurgeons.com:82/about_us.a5w (http://axlesurgeons.com:82/about_us.a5w)
http://www.theaxledoctor.com/index.html (http://www.theaxledoctor.com/index.html)
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on November 28, 2016, 05:27:48 PM
I'm confused. His first post said "drive axle spindle" but the photo looks like a front steer spindle to me, too. What's up?
Steer axle spindles are not hollow and the trailing arm with the shock connected to it would not allow too much turning radius. It's a drive axle.
What Jim said
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on November 28, 2016, 05:27:48 PM
I'm confused. His first post said "drive axle spindle" but the photo looks like a front steer spindle to me, too. What's up?
The rear looks like the front - just larger diameter & hollow for the axle shaft to pass thru.
The top pic doesn't show the end, but the next one does.
The problem with spray welding is machining the part on the vehicle. The seal surface & bearing seats must be perfectly aligned and true to each other for the bearings & seal to last.
Quote from: B_K on November 28, 2016, 06:13:39 PM
http://axlesurgeons.com:82/about_us.a5w (http://axlesurgeons.com:82/about_us.a5w)
http://www.theaxledoctor.com/index.html (http://www.theaxledoctor.com/index.html)
;D BK ;D
A whole lot easier and cheaper than having it welded and machined!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Scott & Heather on November 28, 2016, 01:00:37 PM
So update on our bus currently in the shop here in Texas, our drive axle spindle I guess is damaged from a bearing being too loose. They think it might be OK for us to drive on but they said it will probably continue to leak oil slowly out of it. They mentioned something about having someone weld it and build it back up and then machine it down, is there anyone that anybody knows that can do something like this? What are my options? Do I need to replace the entire axle?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That damage will not necessarily cause an oil leak. Did they slide the outer bearing onto the spindle and check the lateral runout? As long as the outer bearing does not "wiggle" and the inner/outer bearings are true to each other you should be able to set the bearing preload just fine. Make sure they (you) check the seal journal all the way around the circumference. Sometimes there is "hidden" damage to the journal on the underside.
Set the bearing with the pre-load method to properly set the wheel bearing { https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63TD2vkMHbM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63TD2vkMHbM) } (a few mistakes in this clip but the jist of it is there). Pre load is now favored over the end play method now a days. Hard to quantify .001 - .005" of end play on a 300# hub and wheel assembly.
FWIW a growing number of government jurisdictions no longer accept spray weld repairs on axle stubs, spindles or trailer king pins. Axle stub REPLACEMENT is still acceptable tho.
Yep, you guys are spot on. Axle Surgeon said they would actually replace the spindle. Not going that far yet as the mechanics here are not convinced the damage is very severe. He thinks properly setting the preload with new seals will solve the issue. We will see. If not, then getting the Spindle replaced is the next step. A side note, is that the convention I'm scheduled to sing for in Tennessee was supposed to be at the Park Vista hotel in Gatlinburg which as of right now is on fire. So maybe I don't have to rush this fix after all. Crazy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We spray weld spindle shafts on our machines . They spin 5k-12k 24 /7 and work very well .
Quote from: Scott & Heather on November 28, 2016, 11:13:41 PM/// maybe I don't have to rush this fix after all. Crazy.
I'm thinking about things more practical than technical.
Scenario 1 -- You park your bus (family with baby inside) in a shop and they start pulling parts and call the sprayer. The spindle gets pulled and taken to the sprayer. He says "we're busy, we have a two-day turnaround; have it for you on Thursday". On Thursday, you hear from them "Oh, yeah, we had a little trouble with our machines but we got your part done -- but, unfortunately, it was too close to the end of the day for Shipping to get it to the machine shop, but we're sure that they'll get it done for you quickly". Friday, the machine shop says "The didn't tell us it was a Type 2 Heavy Duty spindle, so it will take a little set up time; it'll be done by late Monday for sure". On Monday "we had some rush orders from our regular customers and it was hard to get time to change the tools but it was in the machine when we closed. Be done first thing on Tuesday". So, if you're lucky, you get the spindle back in time to have it installed on Tuesday PM. You pay up, take your bus out of the shop for the first time in a week, and get to your next booking, if you're lucky.
Scenario 2 -- The shop where you are carefully buttons up the parts you have now, carefully fills the oil level, and does their best to get a good seat for the bearings, preload, and seals, and installs gaskets well. You order a new part and have it delivered to the shop of your choice. When the shop verifies that they have the part in stock, you go in in the morning, get the new part installed, and drive away.
Scenario 3 -- A careful reassembly of the parts you have (new bearings, seals, gaskets, etc. if necessary) lasts until your daughter goes off to college.
I'm hoping that #3 works for you, but I wonder if the "high cost" #2 isn't really cheaper than #1. (And if you need it and can get a guaranteed-time service call from Axle Surgeons, that may be perfect.) Just thinkin'.
Our little company worked with a large trucking company out of West texas that did it all the time (axle/spindle repair) with no problems.
Parker makes a seal that is stationary on the spindle and rotates inside the seal that works for scored spindles I had them on my Eagle they cost around 100 bucks ea
When I found out about this Fed Mogul National seal style in 80s-early 90s like mentioned, I started using them totally.
Just liked them over any wear ring, and many installed as oem?, that I didn't understand.
Anyway if needed, or it helps i have put a many national 37series oil bath type on truck axles and will go out of my way to use this style. I'm recalling prices a bit lower than a Franklin.
It was a first question when asking for big seals, is this type and brand available.
If for no other reason than to raise the line of sealing contact, the build up of brake dust at that point, other etc. etc.
Floyd
Hey Jim, that is a great piece of information. thanks for sharing the link, yo da Man!
and like the fact he mentions to use grease and fill hub center a bit with lube. spot on!
Axle hub bearing installation procedures
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63TD2vkMHbM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63TD2vkMHbM)
We just had the tags redone and filled with grease. I'm over oiled hubs. Next up will be the steers. At this point they are buttoning everything back up. S cams were installed backwards by previous owner or owner before him. Tag slack adjusters were installed backwards. Im amazed we could stop this bus. Unstinkingbelievable
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Scott & Heather on November 29, 2016, 01:39:40 PM
Tag slack adjusters were installed backwards. Im amazed we could stop this bus. Unstinkingbelievable
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And that nameless garage in Michigan did not notice! :(
If you don't replace the spindle and can clean up whet is there, you might want to change, at least that side to grease type instead of oil. If that inner bearing can move around,you'll have a tough time getting an oil setup to work. Btdt. Think of cleaning all that oil mess off the wheels, drum, brake shoes, and related hardware.
I have no idea how my tag axle spindle was repaired. I assume it was not replaced. The spindle is obsolete and no longer available so where would they get one to replace it anyhow?
Quote from: Beesme on November 29, 2016, 03:34:56 AM
We spray weld spindle shafts on our machines . They spin 5k-12k 24 /7 and work very well .
Do they spray weld to the exact size or go they machine it to final size?
Quote from: belfert on November 29, 2016, 04:17:28 PM
I have no idea how my tag axle spindle was repaired. I assume it was not replaced. The spindle is obsolete and no longer available so where would they get one to replace it anyhow?
Axle Surgeons told me they replace the part of the spindle that the seal & bearings ride on. The new part is welded on - They don't have to worry about the end of the spindle that mounts to the suspension since they reuse that part.
Apparently, they have the tools to cut the old spindle end off & properly locate the new end for welding.
After spray welding, they will need to machine to correct dimension.We had some 4104 brake camshafts spray welded in the bushing area several years ago.
I see the new buses since 2006 are using sealed bearing on the front and tag axle,no grease or oil.I wonder how that is going to work out over time
Quote from: luvrbus on November 29, 2016, 05:33:48 PM
I see the new buses since 2006 are using sealed bearing on the front and tag axle,no grease or oil.I wonder how that is going to work out over time
My guess is that they will sell more steering axle spindles . . . . . .
In theory, the bearing should last longer since they are pre-set and less chance of contaminants getting into them. - Only problem with that is I use mine in the real world ;D
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 29, 2016, 05:33:00 PM
After spray welding, they will need to machine to correct dimension.We had some 4104 brake camshafts spray welded in the bushing area several years ago.
That has been my experience too. Can they machine an axle spindle with it still attached to the coach? Would love to see how that works!
Quote from: luvrbus on November 29, 2016, 05:26:44 AM
Parker makes a seal that is stationary on the spindle and rotates inside the seal that works for scored spindles I had them on my Eagle they cost around 100 bucks ea
Been using CR Scotseal Plus for almost 20 years. Zero seal failures attributable to the seal. They are two piece seals that seal internally and you "wet" them with gear oil to cause the mounting surfaces to swell and seal off any irregularities in the hub journal and spindle seal surface.
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 29, 2016, 03:49:44 PM
If you don't replace the spindle and can clean up whet is there, you might want to change, at least that side to grease type instead of oil. If that inner bearing can move around,you'll have a tough time getting an oil setup to work. Btdt. Think of cleaning all that oil mess off the wheels, drum, brake shoes, and related hardware.
The hub fills with oil from the differential.
Quote from: kyle4501 on November 29, 2016, 05:48:32 PM
That has been my experience too. Can they machine an axle spindle with it still attached to the coach? Would love to see how that works!
They can turn a crankshaft in the engine still in the vehicle turning a spindle attached shouldn't be that hard
Quote from: luvrbus on November 29, 2016, 06:51:27 PM
They can turn a crankshaft in the engine still in the vehicle turning a spindle attached shouldn't be that hard
Didn't mean to imply it couldn't be done . . . . I've seen a crank turning contraption, but it required the crank to rotate.
That is why I'd like to see how they would machine a spindle without it turning. That would come in handy. ;D
These kinds of outfits used to be everywhere.
They would fix a semi on the road!
You might have to look a little harder now , depending on your location.
http://www.axleals.com/road.php (http://www.axleals.com/road.php)
http://www.theaxledoctor.com/ (http://www.theaxledoctor.com/)
Sealed bearings have been used for years in cars and trucks, so I can see the movement on this technology. Just heavier design with larger oil reservoir.
Quote from: stanton on November 29, 2016, 07:52:50 PM
These kinds of outfits used to be everywhere.
They would fix a semi on the road!
You might have to look a little harder now , depending on your location.
http://www.axleals.com/road.php (http://www.axleals.com/road.php)
http://www.theaxledoctor.com/ (http://www.theaxledoctor.com/)
The one most active in central NC (Charlotte, Salisbury, Winston-Salem) seems to be AxleSurgeons but there may be others, too.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on November 30, 2016, 06:36:09 AM
The one most active in central NC (Charlotte, Salisbury, Winston-Salem) seems to be AxleSurgeons but there may be others, too.
I never had to replace a spindle I never knew it happen so often but with all the people doing replacements it must be a common repair today
Just goes to show how many seal failures happen.
IF it was me-
I would use the expensive two piece seal . The seal to the axle spindle does not rotate , rather the seal rotates inside the seal.
Install the seal with a little 3M 5200 or other gasketless seal compound around lip of seal ( Like Ford gray sealer.)
That probably would cure your ailment.
I used these seals on my commercial hydraulic boat trailers . After going dwn the highway with say a 60 foot, 35,000 lb boat on it, back it into the water
No problems !
Well, not really once a year I would change them all out . Invariably one would start leaking.
With all the salt water immersion i don't blame it.
Used in a Bus, that would be light duty.(comparatively speaking .)
Well, end result is that there is a new scotseal in there and they got everything carefully put back together and 830 miles later we aren't leaking a single drop. We will see how long this lasts. I'm checking the hub temp on both sides frequently during our trips and monitoring the backside of the wheel/brake drum for any signs of leaking. So far so good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As great as those seals are, they have a limit as to how much out of round they can tolerate. If the inner bearing is a sloppy fit, you'll have leaking problems even with this seal.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on December 02, 2016, 11:42:08 PMWell, end result is that there is a new scotseal in there and they got everything carefully put back together and 830 miles later we aren't leaking a single drop. We will see how long this lasts. I'm checking the hub temp on both sides frequently during our trips and monitoring the backside of the wheel/brake drum for any signs of leaking. So far so good.
Well, that's good news. Hope it stays that way.
I'm not averse to having the axle cut and weld
Replaced. Just need to make that happen when we have more time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You did what I would have done. There is nothing particularly unsafe about that stub axle, just a potential leak that you can watch for. It's a drive axle, so it's not like there are only a few ounces of lubricant in the hub, it gets lubed from the differential. Prove there's a problem before you fix it, and you do that by driving it and watching for a leak.
Brian
I know I'm late to game.. did you check and make sure axle vent is open. will push expanded oil pass seal on drive axle. dang muddobbers,,
Haven't checked that bob. I'll
Have to when I get under there. So far still no leakage. After the RR we did lean the axle over to allow the diff oil to lube it. And we topped off the diff oil too. Everything seems good so far
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agree with above post
Mud dobbers and the like can cause havoc .(plugging the vent)