I'm getting my cel and sel coming off and on, not steady on or steady off plus the low oil light comes on once and a great while, all fluids are full and seems to run fine. so I flashed the codes and cel was 16 and the sel was 43 and from what I can tell that is the low coolant code and the coolant sensor Hi volt ??? the sensor is new and I had all the codes cleared when I had it inspected and the only code was the low coolant, so could this be a ground problem? This electronic stuff is all new to me lol
Thanks Jason
Jason you didn't Teflon tape or a sealant on the sensor did you ?
Yes, I used the liquid teflon sealant. Wrong thing to do I take.
Quote from: jmblake on November 03, 2016, 05:27:34 PM
Yes, I used the liquid teflon sealant. Wrong thing to do I take.
In short, yes, wrong thing to do. The sensor needs to be installed without sealant or tape. It needs a good connection, or ground, to the engine to work properly.
The sensor grounds through the threads. Clean the threads on the sensor and the hole and don't put anything on it when you put it back in.
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live and learn :-[ I will drain the tank down and clean it up and reinstall, what about the low oil light? I didn't touch it lol
Jason
Will I have to have the codes cleared or once I fix it will the light stay off?
Jason
Jason before you do all your draining, you might use your electric meter and check the ohms or resistance from say the part of the sensor uncovered and to the tank and in comparison to other areas of good ground points.
As you mention the hi volt code of the sensor signal, agreed here that is standard sign for some ground issues, but always seems good to do the ol test and measure.
cant hurt
Floyd
I pretty sure the low coolant light will go out, on that repaired issue and code will auto change to historic. While on that how many wire sender is installed.
Some maybe different, and I'm prying :) you swapped engines I was curious was there a location change in the cooling tank and new radiator.
have a good day there
Floyd
Floyd, Yes I changed engines, I bought the hole transit bus to do the swap wiring harness and all, my tank and radiator stayed where they were, I just removed the passenger side radiator and put the air charge cooler in its place. As far as the sender it was a new one that came with the transit bus because there old one crusted over and was throwing the same codes, it has 2 wires on it, and for the way home we just jumped the two wires together and the coolant light went off.
Jason
Thanks Jason, I remembered that swap later on and wanted to check back.
I had one that had a wire on a threaded post and one on the side of the sender screwed in so wanted to ask. There seems a few different ones out there w/plugins and all.
Floyd
Update: Well I took the sender out and cleaned the threads, I didn't have any sealant on the threads other than a little bit of the red sealer that came on the sender. and the lights are still coming on ??? I did check the ohms resistance from the sender to the tank and from the sender to the metal frame and they are the same. The tank is mounted on rubber bushings but it seems to be grounding through the bolts. Any other idea's for me to check is greatly appreciated. Thanks Jason
Looks like a bad sensor, you said that when you shorted the wires the light went off. The sensor should short when the coolant covers it.
Jack
Jack, that was with the old sender on the trip home with the Donner bus. This was a new sender, It doesn't go out now when I jump it. Jason
All the sensor does is ground wire #115. Wire #115 goes to pin H3 on the ECM plug is it is grounded the light will go out. Try grounding the wire to a good ground. Your wire could have a brake somewhere between the sensor and plug on the ECM
Jack
Might have to find the number on them wires at the sensor and or up wire a bit ;D
Some may go through some other equipment or parts before getting a Detroit jacket :) and wearing # 115 at the ecm.
Have any pics there of the tank
Floyd
Ground both of the wires going to the sensor. Check where you hooked up the new sensor.
Jack
Well I think I did a real stupid thing tonight, I think maybe I fried my ecm >:( I was tracing the wires back to the ecm and they seemed ok up to the ecm so I unpluged the connector from the ecm and there was some corrosion on the pins so I thought that might be my problem. Then I did a stupid thing I had a small soft brass wire brush that would fit down in the connector hole and cleaned the pins, put everything back together and nothing, started checking things and found 2 blown fuses, so I replaced them and still nothing >:( I have power in the 5 pin connector and the pink ignition wire in the big connector has power. So did I just fry my computer. Feeling really stupid right now I never even thought that side would have power with the key off. Jason
Hope not! why not take a look at them fuses around the bus first, say in bat box and then mosey around and look at the breakers in rear jct box, kinda bottom left #6, I think? it is but bottom row left and or check sticker diagram on that cover. If possible using a dvom meter for a continuity check with the sound works pretty good.
Quote from: brmax on November 10, 2016, 06:47:51 PM
Hope not! why not take a look at them fuses around the bus first, say in bat box and then mosey around and look at the breakers in rear jct box, kinda bottom left #6, I think? it is but bottom row left and or check sticker diagram on that cover. If possible using a dvom meter for a continuity check with the sound works pretty good.
Yeah I hope not, but I did replace 2 fuses and I do have power at ecm just no cel or sel when I turn the key on and when I do try to start it just cranks.
Thanks Jason
It sounds like you are not getting ignition power to the ECM. There is some voltage in that socket for the the sensors if the DC plug was powered. I don't think shorting it out would kill the ECM. Ignition is wire 439 at pin B-3. Take plug out and check to see if you bent any pins and check voltage on B-3 with key on.
Jack
Jason,there is a outfit in Cheswick Pa called DCS 417-327-9400 that can check your ECM I think they do have a internal protection device,fwiw DCS has never charged me over $400 to repair a ECM but YMMD
Thanks guys, I do some more checking over the weekend, hopefully it's not fried. Jason
Jack, I have 13.2 volt on wire #439 but for some reason now it has power all the time even with the key off. So I unhooked the plug from the ecm and from the ignition solenoid up front and still have power in #439 ??? Does wire 439 go straight from ecm to the front ignition solenoid or is there something in between like a relay that could be bad, the wire goes into the big harness at the ecm and comes out of the big harness up front but I don't know if it splits off somewhere in the harness there's so many wires coming and going it's hard to tell. Every thing worked up until now. Thanks Jason
Cavity
Wire No.
Label
VIH-to-ECM Connector
H-3
115
COOLANT LEVEL
D-2
417
LIMITING SPEED GOVERNOR
B-1
419
CHECK ENGINE LIGHT
B-3
439
IGNITION
E-1
451
DIGITAL INPUT #1
F-3
499
DIGITAL OUTPUT #1
K-1
505
TACHOMETER DRIVE
B-2
509
STOP ENGINE LIGHT
D-1
510
OI THERMOSTAT OR PTO OR EXHAUST BACK PRESSURE SENSOR (COACH ONLY)
H-1
523
DIGITAL INPUT #7
H-2
524
DIGITAL INPUT #8
G-1
528
DIGITAL INPUT #4
J-2
531
DIGITAL INPUT #10
J-1
541
DIGITAL INPUT #9
F-1
542
DIGITAL INPUT #2
G-2
543
DIGITAL INPUT #5
F-2
544
DIGITAL INPUT #3
G-3
545
DIGITAL INPUT #6
A-2
555
DIGITAL OUTPUT #2
E-2
556
VEHICLE SPEED (+)
E-3
557
VEHICLE SPEED (-)
K-2
583
DIGITAL INPUT #11
D-3
749
ESS OR FIRE TRUCK PUMP PRESSURE
C-2
900
J1587 DATA LINK (+)
C-1
901
J1587 DATA LINK (-)
J-3
908
VARIABLE SPEED FAN OR PWM TRANSMISSION OR OI ALARM
A-3
916
SENSOR SUPPLY (5VDC)
C-3
952
SENSOR RETURN
K-3
979
DIGITAL INPUT #12
A-1
988
DIGITAL OUTPUT #3
These are the wires in that plug. B-3 should turn on and off with the switch. If it doesn't turn off you won't get the check and stop engine.
Jack
There are two things that it goes through. The kill engine switch in the back and the ignition relay in the back drivers side.
Jack
Okay thanks I'll check that out tomorrow but that wire has juice all the time for some reason thanks Jason
Forgot would that wire having juice in it all the time keep it from starting? I could see it not shutting off since that would be keeping power there?
I don't know, it shouldn't have power all the time. Did you check to see if you have a bent pin in the eCm.
Jack
Check that relay. A few years back I found a bad relay that was causing my electric wipers to not work in intermittent mode.
Didn't have much time today, the pins aren't bent, I have 13.2 volts at pin 439 but I get nothing as far as cel sel lights I even tried the diagnostic switch and nothing lights up for it either, The 3 fuses are good like I said before and I got power on the 5 pin connector on the ecm. Would there be a internal fuse in the ecm? There is 4 - 1/4" bolts holding a cover plate on the ecm would there be any thing in there for fuses or shouldn't I go in there. Where might the ignition relay be located? I don't recall seeing it. Thanks Jason
I am wondering if you are checking the correct wire. When the plug is in the ECM the pin is 2 from the bottom of the plug on the third row. The relay is in the box at the back left side door. when you are looking in the box it is on the right side of the box almost at the bottom. The run kill switch in the small electric box in the back left door is where that switch is. All it does is kill the power to B-3.
Jack
Jack, I defiantly got power in B-3 I printed off a diagram of the connectors so I could coordinate it with the plug. I did find one problem that I thought would fix it but still no go, I found that in the 5 pin power plug that I only had ground in 1 terminal so I peeled back the tape and wire loom about 8" and found 2 butt connectors going from the 2 wires in the plug down to 1 wire about 3" than back to 2 wires and it all just fell apart when I took the tape off. I was sure that after I fixed that it would start but still no go >:( there is a couple other splices I can see on the main harness so I'm going to peel back the loom and tape on that and see if there is any more splices hidden in there. I did call the guy at DCS that Cliff mentioned and he told me a few other things to check out and if I can't get it to bring it down and he would test the ecm, he said that maybe just a solder joint let loose or broke of the pin on the inside. I'll keep digging tomorrow night and see if I can find anything else. Jason
If you have power to the DC plug all you need to make the engine run is power to B-3. You know when that plug is in the Ecm the B-3 Wire is 3 pins from the bottom and the furtherest away from you. All of the prints show it at the top, but that plug goes in upside down.
Jack
We are back alive ;D What I found was ignition wire 439 was broke about 4" back from the plug, when I had the plug off the ecm and bent back to test it it must have been making contact at the broken spot and showed power then when I put it back on it would separate enough to not give me power >:( After fixing the grounds on the 5 pin connector and the 439 broken wire I also found 3 other bad spots in other wires that I also fixed. Now I ran it for about 15 minutes and I get no cel or sel lights. Thanks Jack for your input and not giving up on the ignition wire being the problem. Now I just got to clean every thing up and tape the wires all back together again. Jason
Glad you have it fixed. The reason I wouldn't give up is because I have been there. I chased a problem with ignition for almost a year before I found it.
Jack
Quote from: blue_goose on November 16, 2016, 12:19:45 AM... I chased a problem with ignition for almost a year before I found it.
Jack
You're scaring me, Jack :) But the thought that anything that's broken can be fixed is a positive one! Glad you got it, Jason!
Bruce my problem only lasted for about 6 months. Started when I was parking at the Busnut rally last Feb. I looked at everything but the ignition voltage. Changed fuel filter, primed engine, after about an hr it started. Quit 3 times on the road going home. It would start after a while and run good. I found that it was a lost voltage for the ignition but couldn't find out where. After I would get it started on the road it wouldn't do it again when I could track it down. About 6 months later on I85 in NC it quit. I jumped the ignition and made it to Charlotte. This time when I took the jumper off it quit running. Now it was broken when I could track it down. Found a bad run, stop switch in the engine compartment. Put in new switch, 6000 miles later all still fine.
Jack
Quote from: blue_goose on November 16, 2016, 07:59:16 AMBruce my problem only lasted for about 6 months. Started when I was parking at the Busnut rally last Feb. I looked at everything but the ignition voltage. Changed fuel filter, primed engine, after about an hr it started. Quit 3 times on the road going home. It would start after a while and run good. I found that it was a lost voltage for the ignition but couldn't find out where. After I would get it started on the road it wouldn't do it again when I could track it down. About 6 months later on I85 in NC it quit. I jumped the ignition and made it to Charlotte. This time when I took the jumper off it quit running. Now it was broken when I could track it down. Found a bad run, stop switch in the engine compartment. Put in new switch, 6000 miles later all still fine.
Jack
I'm glad you got if fixed - I hate intermittent electrical problems! Was the problem *no* voltage or low voltage when the switch was giving trouble? But it's kind of scary to think that somebody who is really good has problems -- what chance do I have??? :)
Thanks for the info - it will probably be helpful to somebody.
Jack, Any chance you will be traveling north in 2017? I would still like you to step up my HP a bit, There's no way I can make it down to FL but Carolina/Tenn area may be possible lol. Thanks for your help Jason
Jason if you can't make it to Jack, but can make it to TN Ken Arnold aka "Hard Headed Ken" here on the boards near Murfreesboro, TN is our go to guy for things like this!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: jmblake on November 16, 2016, 02:50:39 PM
Jack, Any chance you will be traveling north in 2017? I would still like you to step up my HP a bit, There's no way I can make it down to FL but Carolina/Tenn area may be possible lol. Thanks for your help Jason
Yes we may be next summer. If so we will more than likely stop and see Jeff at Hoffman Coach. How close are you to him.
Jack
Jack, He is about a hour and a half north of me, depending on your route you may be coming right past me. let me know any details and I could meet you up there or somewhere in between. Thanks Jason
BK, Thanks for the info, we are coming to Tenn in August for vacation more on the Eastern side (Pigeon Forge area) but whats a little detour lol We'll see how things work out with Jack. Thanks Jason
Quote from: jmblake on November 19, 2016, 12:46:28 PM
Jack, He is about a hour and a half north of me, depending on your route you may be coming right past me. let me know any details and I could meet you up there or somewhere in between. Thanks Jason
If he is north of you, you must be close to Emlenton Pa. A good friend of mine lives there and he has a MCI 8 with a series 50 engine.
Jack
Yah, about 45 minutes away, I don't remember his name but I looked at his 8V92 when he was doing the switch to the 50 series, that was about 3 years ago, then I found the 8V71turbo and put it in and it was down hill from then lol Jason
Jack, Is the man in Emlenton last name Snyder? The retired mechanic that was working on my engine has a old GMC cracker box truck that he had at a local car show and that's where Mr Snyder started talking to him about the old detroit and mentioned to him about his 92 that he was taking out of his bus. So one thing led to another and we went to his place and looked at it. He wouldn't actually put a price on it and said he had a guy interested in it and if it fell through he would give me a call, must not have fell through because I never heard from him. Jason
Lowell is a good friend of mine for about 25 years. We spent some time at his place this past summer on the way north. He is also my neighbor now here is Florida. He just bought a house 3 doors from me. Now we have 3 out of 5 neighbors with a bus.
When Lowell put the series 50 in his bus he left the ht740 which i think was a mistake. He has made three trips to Florida with the series 50 and loves it. Now he can look at the road an not the temp gauge.
Jack
Jason cut out the original craddle and re fit the S-50 or? What tranny did you use.
Dave5Cs
Jack, what HP does Lowell have his set at? How's his mileage? When we were there he had every thing pulled out and was working on the front mount for the 50 series. It looked like he was doing a first class install, wonder why he stuck with the 740?
Dave, I modified the old cradle for the 50 series, Just a little fabricating for the front mount and I just had to move the back mounts a few inches. I used a B400 transmission that was in the donner bus with a retarder, and it shifts so smooth compared to the 740, 6th gear is still locked out on it but where we live and mostly go I don't think it would get used much because it seems we are in 4th more than 5th now anyways. Maybe once I get the HP bumped up a bit 6th gear would be needed.
Jason
Thanks for the info. I have been thinking 6v92T but also Van told me last week that I might look at the S50 too but then probably need to change 644mt tranny also.
Several I know have the 740 behind the S50,S60,Cat and Cummins engines because of gearing the World Allison B400 or B500 works best with gearing in the 4:30 to 4:56 to use both overdrives.
The prices of the B's and 4000 Allison's have dropped way down in price now I remember some of my friends paying $25,000.00 for a new one.
I removed a series 50 and B400 from a friends Eagle he never did like the setup because of the lack of power and his fuel mileage was not great either because of gearing.
He has been a happy camper with the 4:11 gear,C-13 Cat and B500 but he would like to have a 4:30 or 4:56 rear gear.FWIW the ISM 500 hp Cummins with the 4000 Allison is a good setup too