After finally getting the throttle issues solved in Tucson and meeting most awesome Scott and Heather... We made it 30 miles from Beaumont TX. Pulled into a rest stop and started setting up for the night. Noticed we needed few things and figured we head to beaumont Petro for the night. Bus would start but mislabeled warning light came on and bus shut down. Went outside and noticed a puddle of coolant, traced it down to behind the water pump. After quick phone consult with my new best friend at WW Williams in Tucson, figured its a broken seal on the pump, so coolant leaks through weep hole. Bus won't start because low coolant level. It never got hot , so...again timing is perfect. Not on side of busy highway and close to a big city (houston).
First thing in the morning calling Steward and Stevenson for a new pump and try to find mobile guy to replace it. Alternatively, see if it has fully drained, JB weld the hole, fill up and drive to S&S... I have to be in Tampa Wednesday.
Bumping this to the top. I assumed once the pump leaked at the weephole it meant automatic pump replacement but I could be mistaken. Sami I almost think you could do this yourself if you needed to. Someone here replace their water pump that can chime in? He has a DDEC III 6v92
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You are sure it is the seal? I have had a hose tear, close to the pump, and thought it was the seal.
Otherwise, you are correct. Have to get that sucker replaced.
When I bought my Newell last month I had bad seal . I just added coolant from my water supply and drove 2200 miles . It really leaks very little while driving and mine leaked pretty bad . I bought pump on eBay for 103$ when I got home . Real easy to change less than 2hrs . Cost more for coolant then the pump lol
And that was for a walking water pump for an 8v92t
Yeah its a little bit more involved on this one. see picture, nobody is willing to do it at rest area...waiting a call back from steward and stevenson if they have one on the shelf. it did drain all the way, i collected about 5 gallons of coolant and there is probably another 5 on the ground. that came out in approximately 2 hours, so i think driving is out of question...
And yep, its definetly coming out of the weep hole :(
there's only 4 bolts holding it on :)
but on the left side (sorry the pic is sideways) is a block with sensors and plumbing. S&S does not have the part in stock, so im calling around.
am i correct in the assumption that if i try to JB weld the hole shut, i'll risk that coolant weeping into the engine/oil?
If your calling around then its under consideration, um depending where its sent is also.
Your answer plugging; it has to go thru bearings first and under a bit of pressure.
With the coolant cap sealed as normal it builds a bit of pressure, this is normal and doing it, in its weird way reduces the boiling point. Any system can run without much pressure or a cap "if" the engine can move the coolant well enough and keep enough in tank above from triggering a low coolant light and heat issue.
If I were to do other than repair it wouldn't be the plug.
In any other event the plan to r&r the pump is the a or b with the location.
Floyd
Don't plug the weep hole.
That's why it is there.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Well, the pump is ordered from factory, at small cost of $507. It will here before 10:30 tomorrow morning. Now just waiting to see who can start the work before that and put the new pump in right after i get it...
You need somebody that knows how to set the back lash on the pump or it won't last long
Well, i cant get S&S service department call me back so the other company im looking at is Americorp Diesel, out of houston. They seem like a pretty big shop, obviously that means little...
trying to get a tow quote... $2k for 42 miles as of now :o
I guess I am missing something. Water weeping out the hole means the water seal in the pump is gone. That pump looks to me like the same kind as my 8V-71 has, in which case you remove the five bolts holding the cover on, you pop the impeller off the shaft with a simple puller, you replace the water seal around the shaft, and you put it back together again. You don't have to remove the water pump from the engine, you need to drain the coolant (I use a big rubbermaid bin and put it back in later with a bucket), but otherwise about an hour to buy a puller and a seal, maybe a gasket, and another hour to do the deed... What am I missing, vs $500 for a new water pump?
Brian
I, too, have had the unfortunate experience of panic almost turning a small, easily-fixed problem into a major ordeal.
Lost a u-joint on the highway at 02:00 on a Sunday last summer; all I could think of was "TOW!!!" After having my call dropped by road service plan, with no call-back, on hold for the second time, I realized "$#!%!! This is just a u-joint. Bigger than on a pickup truck, but I can do this." So I did, on the side of the road, in a thunderstorm! Yours truly making like a ground strap from bus to earth, well-washed on the bottom from all the water across the road!
If coolant is coming out of the weep hole, the shaft seal in the pump is most likely the problem. Absolutely do not plug the weep hole. That could force coolant into the oil system, damaging the connecting-rod bearings, possibly requiring an in-frame major rebuild. As stated in an earlier post, if you're not far, fill it with water and don't cap it; watch the temperature closely (if your dash gauge is reliable) and go for it. But do not overheat it. Once you get to a better place, rebuild the pump yourself, at your leisure. Personally, I would rebuild it right there, but your needs may be different.
Refill with the proper coolant.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Ted.
Agreed, Brian. You were posting while I was typing! I like how this automatically cleaned up my profanity!
Big snap ring holding the water pump cover on my 8V92T. Requires big snap ring pliers or lots of profanity. But it sure looks like a road-side job, if necessary. I have a severe aversion to paying someone to do what I can do myself, but no problem whatsoever paying well for what I can't or won't do. I'll work on my bus all day with a smile, but not a car!
Fill it up with water and watch temp. You said 2hrs to drain , you can drive 42miles in less than 2 hrs and save tow
If your shaft and impeller are good it no biggie to change the seal,start the engine pour water in it to see how bad it leaks running, they usually don't leak bad when running exception if the shaft and impeller are gone they leak terrible
Call Stewart Steveson in Houston and ask for Jason! Tell him his sister in laws nephew from TN said to take care of ya!
;D BK ;D
Ditto on the fill and drive. If you can and it is not too old, try to save what coolant mix is in there and just refill with straight water for the short journey. At least fill and check how bad the leak is.
I agree on the fill and drive. BTDT!
I always prefer to do my own repairs in my own shop.
But since you don't have a shop to do it in do the next best thing and limp it to one that can.
;D BK ;D
I had the same problem a few years back, pulled into the El Capitan in Hawthorne NV to dump my tanks and all of a sudden the pump let loose out of the weephole just like yours. Brian is correct in that this is an easy parking lot fix. Fortunately I had the parts on hand. Pull the cover, pull the impeller and the water seal, and replace. Get yourself a seal, impeller with ceramic spacer already baked in place, and a new cover gasget/o-ring (depending on your pump)
I would definitely replace the impeller at the same time, in my experience 9 times out of 10 the ceramic pops loose when you pull it and if that happens the impeller will free wheel. Cheap insurance in my book. About 50 to 60 bucks in parts as close as I can remember. Easy peasy.
Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk
Sometime the quick seal install does not solve the problem it's only a temporary fix,if the shaft,oil seal and bearing are bad you pull the water pump and they do cost around 500 bucks for a rebuilt water pump.FWIW most DD dealers will not install just the seal they pull the pump and rebuild or exchange it,the rebuild kit from Detroit will cost you $260.00 after market kits are cheaper
good luck
We got the tow done ($900) and S&S is installing new pump as we speak. It boiled to few things in my head (pun intended): do I want to overheat downtown Houston on I-10. More importantly, one way or another I have to be in Tampa for early Thursday meeting. So, I could have learned or tried to do the job, if not successful within the time frame, it would have costed the same in air fares etc.
thank you all!!
Sami
There shouldn't be a core charge if they are installing a new pump. You can take the old one along for possible rebuild later or if someone needs a core.
You are lucky S&S is on the east side @ I-10 and 610 not much Houston traffic to deal when leaving there headed east.FWIW at exit 810 stay on the feeder road there is a good place to eat@ Gators,if you need 40W oil they have it on the shelf there
Well...the best laid plans...they ordered wrong pump >:(
I just happened to stop by, looks like they sat on that little piece of information for 2.5 hours. They did find the correct pump in back of one of their service trucks and are installing it now...
Maybe they ordered the pump from the serial number from your engine,it sucks sometimes when the pump has been changed from the original serial number
This is
Killing me. Keep at it Sami.
Hopefully you won't have to mess with the water pump ever again. You're still baselining this coach
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Appreciate the sympathy Scott :)
As it turns out I may have been able the swap the pump myself. But seeing that the part was wrong and the needed to replace bunch of clamps, broke bolt in old pump, it would have been pretty big stress. Got the new pump in ran it till thermostat hit and got about 10 gallons of coolant in. Seemed ok and hit the road. Right on on ramp to I-10, it must have burned and engine shut off...ladder out and added 2 more gallons and we were good to go. Bought 4 quarts of rear lube and filled it with check ports on axle caps to about half way Into the shafts,Found a dirt lot in Hammond LA, to night over, everything is jam packed around here.
Tough haul as I have a fifth nerve issues and my eyes get tired during dark..
Thank you all for all your help :)
Long ~600 Mile haul tomorrow, keep your fingers crossed for me,
Sami
Hope you slept well. You might still have more air burp out of the cooling system so be ready to add more coolant. It took me a couple of days of driving to get the air purged out of my MCI 9 with the 6v92. Just really hard to burp those.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mine took 2 days and 24 gallons
Did you ask for Jason @ S & S and give him a hard time for me?
;D BK ;D
Made it to FL, with hours to spare. Played trucker with Kelly's dad who just happened on I-75 same time with his semi, made the last 90 miles go by nice. Yeah added 3 more gallons of coolant on this morning seemed to settle there.
And since this is how it goes: both axels leak fluid, I added 4 qts on the trip to keep them lubricated... I guess I'll have to get new gaskets and pull them out. I think S&S just rtv siliconed them in... should be fun to pull them out.
Oh and lol, the crap roads in Louisiana made sparks fly under the dash causing most of the instrument lights go out. Now I have red led flash light to see speed >:(
As for Jason, by the time I got there and realized the had not done anything yet, most of them were gone. You know these guys work from 8 to 5?
;D
LOL! Yes I know Jason is a 9-5'er for sure.
Last I heard he'd made supervisor and doesn't even open his tool box anymore! ::)
;D BK ;D
You need to order the axle gaskets before you remove the axle sometimes those are hard to find since they are not your standard axle gaskets found on trucks
If the axles and hub are cleaned to spec. RTV is perfect there in my book, never had one leak. Them parts are a pain to clean and prepare properly no doubt, brake & electric cleaner was great later on when available and not as hot to curl rubber or bother paint if aware and addressed correctly. The RTV we purchase needs a proper cure time for best results, but clean and dry is the key, also the amount used as it doesn't take much with a machine fit seal as this, sometimes the over use is an easy sign of reel smrtz.
I haven't used many axle gaskets in repair, but did consider them excellent for temporary use with covering plates when axles were pulled for towing and retrieval.
What sticks in my head as an apprentice? hammering out gaskets, and if ya look right over the hub you will be able to see rtv on the pumkin!
Coffees gone best get to work, hydraulic cylinders oh boy
have a good day there
Floyd
I had to remove Tom's (LVMIC) axles and replace with gaskets when RTV was used they leaked bad
im planning a trip to winter garden MCI to get windshields, i'll check if they have the gaskets. am I correct to assume the gaskets go in dry? Does anybody know from top of their head what's the bolt size on the axle caps, that are used to pull them out?
I'll likely have to have someone to swap the axle grease/oil, since now it's a mixture of what was available on my drive down...
They are 1/2 inch but just smack the center of the axle with a heavy hammer and they pop out
Its obvious the RTV wasn't cured properly and possibly a bad batch I'm sure Tom was stoked you were available to help repair, I would be. anyway that can happen this is a real world and stuff happens.
I had the opportunity to know the equipment I worked on as it was only repaired by me from new, and though a small amount by many fleet standards I was wrenching 78 dot licensed trucks here for 34 years myself "not a shop full of techs "and I can say if in a perfect world if only pulling 4 axles a year that woulda been extremely lucky and actually triple it at minimum, seals go, brake pads freeze, diffs go out and I promise you I bought less gaskets than my 10 fingers and used RTV without leaks. I feel I only qualify saying that as if one of my assigned vehicles broke down 200 miles away It was me that still got the call and went as having a service truck for emergency road and field repair was 24-7+.
Permatex ultra black, clean and dry surface, count on it!
Floyd
Floyd
I can appreciate what your saying, please complete the last sentence for success of that stuff... Do you tighten completely right away or over time, cure time before putting into service? I like making gaskets over buying them. I like even more for silicone you mention. Does one have to be careful when assembling engine parts (detrimental to get cured silicone into oil galleys)? Thanks
You make a bead and let dry for a few hours it does ok, on Jeeps when the plastic valve covers breaks,when you buy a new valve cover they come with a large bead of RTV lol no telling how long it has cured.I don't have any luck with RTV unless I do make a bead,gaskets are my thing
I think the tech left the old torn gasket in and tried to patch it with rtv. Doesn't make much sense to me. I would tend to agree that properly cured silicone should do the job, it's not exactly high demand application, no pressure and not that high temps..
Sure Dan, by saying stuff in my prior post: I mean things needing to be worked on.
This type assembly is not a loose fit in my opinion and giving way to a gasket cushion, more a filling the precision nicks and machine marks.
So with this I consider the fill in spec thin, and that's what each that I took apart looked like.
I recommend the dry curing time on the tube before oil emersion, and it being silicone requires it.
On Engine pans I like pro paper and cork gaskets, also the newer pre made silicone rubber. The last question has some careful answers I can shed a bit of light on, I will say many vehicles "factory assembled" in the eighties and 9ts had idiots with caulk tubes making gaskets, Don't really want to word that to be rude but when many people that try to do good and work in life have that crap happen it is uncool. I know this because I took apart many and pulled gray silicone from the oil pumps, this was reason for blinking oil lights and low pressures. That was not fun or funny the strings of silicone.
I like to think minimalist (is that a real word) on using a bead of RTV and surface drier than a popcorn f.
I most likely was saved by my Senior Techs teachings from using to much, and the were sharp as a tac every day. I recall the first lesson Flatten that bead, This was in this particular axle type assembly I think they don't say that on the tube but its what I do.
rtv has its places, so closing i say just don't short cut the job. and in Hopes that all works out. Roll On!
Floyd
You need to clean surface thoroughly and then wipe with lacquer thinner to remove any hint of oil or grease. I always liked ultra black red grey or blue. The straight blue semi transparent stuff sucks, but has it place, but somewhere else. Many locations require quality conventional gaskets. In those locations, I mainly prefer Permatex hightack for gasket sealant.
pounding out gaskets is an apprentice right of passage...
rtv...pfffft.
wait till you dig that crap out of a differential oil pump someday...along with a 1/4 bushel of hypoid gears...
or an oil return passage cast in.......
nope, not in my tool tray niether.
not in my shop either.
I think used in the right place and right way it's ok,I remember DD said you could use on the engines in the 80's manuals,that didn't last long they set you a page to replace that page in the manual
When replacing gaskets, I get quite paranoid about possibly having to deal with a leak later. I definitely prefer a real, new gasket. But just to keep the RTV proponents happy too, I like to smear a thin coat of the stuff on as a fail safe gasket sealant. Permatex will alleviate my worrys too.
Sami, is this your debut run with the coach? If so this doesn't surprise me. We are still working out weird kinks while we attempt to baseline our coach.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For me, I once was a wrench turner, I like to use the gasket with a light (smear) coat on each side of the gasket and let cure.
Now I know this is against all things. I was taught by an old mech and never had anything go wrong. I have heard over the years about this is the wrong way, but it work for me, for years. My two cents worth. (I'm tring to get my third star)
Scott, no, we are at about 5k miles traveling with the coach.
I believe I'll try the silicone on both clean surfaces finger level the bead and let air dry before bolting.
Everybody has their option to make their decisions, In this outer wheel axle to hub assembly the discussion and recommendations posted vary.
What I have did my whole career was to use the RTV only on clean dry surfaces and install axle immediately and torque to specifications of bolts or stud nut types used. When this above is done, a proper cure is best for the RTV, with temperature this cure is always dependent and should be considered, these are the methods I have always used successfully.
Paper gaskets of the ones I hammered out either with one ball peen or two were thin in this assembly and maybe .030" again maybe that thick, they were a lot of times put on dry, some used a dab of grease to station them, some used different types of adhesive sealers mainly to station the gasket, these could include Indian head, Permatex no.2, and Permatex aviation type which I think is now different for 10 years and a combo of both in my opinion.
The newer best factory gaskets area metallic and generally have a spray layer of something thin but flexible to seal these super fine machine marks or nicks and obviously proven. I have removed clear plastic factory gaskets also and thin or thinner as I recall than the metallic above.
If in doubt I would call and receive the factory replacement parts, as it is proven and something I do promote.
I would use one of these above and kept separated, as my recommendation.
happy travels
Floyd
Thanks Floyd 🤓
While I'm at it, the shorter axle goes on passenger side? The wrecker did not mark them and that's how the S&S guys put them in,,,,
Sami
Quote from: Beachfinn on November 04, 2016, 10:55:58 AM
Scott, no, we are at about 5k miles traveling with the coach.
I believe I'll try the silicone on both clean surfaces finger level the bead and let air dry before bolting.
LOCTITE makes a gasket replacer, it is what is called an anaerobic sealant. it is intended to only function "in the absence of air" hence anaerobic.
it, like all sealant sans gasket, are dependent on surface condition and prep.
NOTE: The main failure of silicone is "squeeze"out.....it matters not how "dry" it gets, if any (even a pin head) exposed to the contained oil, will deteriorate the total of the goop...or crap as I call it.
a 6 oz ball-peen will last a life time.
If anaerobics cure in the absence of air, how come they don't cure in the sealed bottle?
A: The anaerobic bottles are specially formulated oxygen-permeable polyethylene bottles that allow air to pass through the wall of the bottle to maintain stability of the liquid product inside the container. The bottle is also not filled to the top for stability purposes. A 50 ml bottle does indeed contain 50 ml's of product in a larger bottle.
Quote from: eagle19952 on November 04, 2016, 03:13:59 PM
LOCTITE makes a gasket replacer, it is what is called an anaerobic sealant. it is intended to only function "in the absence of air" hence anaerobic.
it, like all sealant sans gasket, are dependent on surface condition and prep.
NOTE: The main failure of silicone is "squeeze"out.....it matters not how "dry" it gets, if any (even a pin head) exposed to the contained oil, will deteriorate the total of the goop...or crap as I call it.
a 6 oz ball-peen will last a life time.
If anaerobics cure in the absence of air, how come they don't cure in the sealed bottle?
A: The anaerobic bottles are specially formulated oxygen-permeable polyethylene bottles that allow air to pass through the wall of the bottle to maintain stability of the liquid product inside the container. The bottle is also not filled to the top for stability purposes. A 50 ml bottle does indeed contain 50 ml's of product in a larger bottle.
and Loctite makes the gasket replacer in one that sets solid and one that sets semi-solid to allow some movement.
http://www.loctite.com.au/3320_AUE_HTML.htm?nodeid=8802626633729 (http://www.loctite.com.au/3320_AUE_HTML.htm?nodeid=8802626633729)
You guys are teaching me so much. I'm so glad I got my water pump rebuilt even though it wasn't seeping. Perhaps I should get a spare fan belt. I wonder what size an 8V71 in an MC5 uses...
Trust that the guys @ S & S put the axles in correctly or you wouldn't have made it to FL!
As if they didn't get them right you would have gone nowhere! The long one wouldn't have been able to bolt up and the short one wouldn't have made contact with the differential and therefor e the bus would have just sat there.
Yes now is the time to get a new belt.
I know nothing about MC 5's but if you ask around someone will know the correct belt.
But I'd say chances are good you can get a part # off the one you have on there now!
:D BK :D
So, the last part(I hope) to this story. Pulled both axles and cleaned them with lacquer thinner really good, nice bead of black rtv, hand tighten, sit for an hour and torqued down. One side leaked oil after few hours, with no oil put back in. Got the gaskets from MCI at hand now and will install in the morning, with small thin layer of rtv on gasket.
Fingers crossed,
Sami
Quote from: Beachfinn on November 08, 2016, 04:52:28 PM... One side leaked oil after few hours, with no oil put back in....
Your axle is haunted!! Only explanation. (Best of luck with the gaskets.)
It leaked from the same spot, where the pull out bolt holes are. The hub had pretty decent marks from over the years, hence bo seal. The gaskets cover the three holes, so it should be fine .. me hopes
Man, I feel like we jinxed you...you should never have shook my hand man... :-\
lol bud, I'd never think of that. I will ' shake your hand plenty times in future. It's just bus life 🤓
,
I did the same thing as bevens6 did , replaced the seal without removing the pump in the yard in about a hour, low cost seal. no big deal, 8 v 71, never had another problem