Hi all. We are just about 15 miles outside of Roswell broke down. Coach just died. Won't restart. Coolant ok, temp cool, oil level and pressure dandy. It's starving for fuel. Checked primary and secondary fuel filters (they are freshly replaced) and they are not full. So I have a clog in the pickup tube likely. Yesterday while filling the tank, I watched a piece of RTV fall into the tank when I put the nozzle in. The previous charter company must have used this black RTV seal between the fill cap housing and the tank itself. It should have been a gasket not RTV. Annoys me. I peeled carefully all of the remaining swollen RTV from around the housing but the piece that fell in likely is clogging my pickup tube. My tank is 3/4 full and I'm on the side of the road in the desert. Is there a magical way to unclog it roadside? I've taken the tank out before so if I have to have it towed to Roswell, if I can find a helpful shop, I'll pump the diesel out and pull the tank and see if I can remove the clog. Unless I'm missing something...could the clog occur further down towards the primary fuel filter? (https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161025%2F18468355378945a3e72b5ac9c4bf0ea1.jpg&hash=15bd2bbbc988305ce65dfd69331851f5d10473b7)(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161025%2F0dc36d27d23dd7fffc2505f5a4ecf0ae.jpg&hash=21a587cf9b0655f74950e9a4e6427afcfce179c6)(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161025%2F71fcc7edc7727c3abd93efb4deb2df5b.jpg&hash=ea448b499e2d0ec405be8abe70cc812bc5449ac6)
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i ran a few shops in my day...RTV silicone was goop non grata....as in we don't use it here :)... were i you i would put a tee in my fuel supply line with a shutoff valve up stream... and a blow nozzle to clear it. as often as required....
infact i would initially try my lungs to clear the line...
then i would pray that the sillycone disolved/deteriorated before i got to a safe place to repair it...
curiously i would also determine if it floats....were you "low" on fuel...?
nag-dabbit...double posted...and no one to blame :)
Most "Cs" have a lift pump at fuel tank to supply the gear pump check and see if you have one it may just be a blown fuse
Don, that's going to be one of my first things to do is to blow air backwards into the tank. Cliff how can I determine this for sure? I'm pretty sure I don't have one because I've pulled the tank and polished it before. And there was nothing there just the two wires going to the fuel sending unit for the level
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I'm on my way into Roz well to pick up a garden sprayer to re-prime. If I can get it to run off of a gas can then I know I have a clog upstream somewhere or my gear pump died which I doubt.
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Also no my tank is three-quarter full it is not low.
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Buy a electric pump and 4 or 5 ft hose by pass the tube in the tank that will get you guys to a safe place it will run off a electric pump supplying the gear pump
Cliff where do I put the pick up for that hose stick it inside the tank? Sorry maybe I'm not thinking this through
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Scott can you get to the top of the tank where the fuel line comes out? If so disconnect the line there and see if you blow back into the tank. Does your bus have an electric pump in line?
Just put the hose in at the filler neck and take the line loose at the tank hook it together.You do know aliens live around Roswell ;D ;D ;D just kidding trying to keep u upbeat
Did you refill filters and try it again? I wouldn't think one piece of silicone would clog pickup. Maybe you got some dirty fuel that immediately plugged filters. I'd try the fuel can and a short piece of hose at the engine first after other checks.
He could have gotten a heavy shot of the Bio fuel,that crap is the pits
Update. As of 5:07 Roswell time, I attempted repriming by putting a pressurized garden sprayer hose with diesel in the sprayer tank at the primary and secondary filters. No start. Tried and tried. Battery is on charger recovering now. So, I checked all the ECM fuses in the battery bay. Here's what they read (none of the fuses are blown and I did reseat all of them really well to rule out corroded connection issues).:
From the bottom up:
Bottom fuse:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161025%2F665d7f237e3e0040edb53f88285f8319.jpg&hash=e42fb6e2db73fe04143270d7b1774188b8c7a65e)
Next fuse up: (https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161025%2F0f0a29926beec456028d071096b1b5ff.jpg&hash=c1a3b55b10e9e84a3d787c65f0a8f9c0b85e2ac7)
Next one up:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161025%2Fd4a3756e60b3db889cc6d8f0a0d56edb.jpg&hash=114af9044d2705823d19bb4a95fb738f72de7712)
Top fuse:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161025%2Fd6fb131d2b3a737fc334c92e765bf181.jpg&hash=f56510fe6b994755119a207b93e45a4bc941d9d2)
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As soon as it gets dark I think I'm going to head into town I don't want no alien seeing me on the side of the road LOL
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DDEC s are a little harder to prime than the mechanical version you may end up with a inline pump and let it pump for 4 or 5 minutes
good luck
Really cliff? OK I think I'll pick up an in-line pump. How many gallons per hour? Something I can pick up at tractor supply?
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So at this point what I need to know is what fuel pump I should purchase and where I might find something like this. Does it need to be a certain gallons per hour? Also I need to know if I need to remove a fuel sensor wire from the primary fuel filter to go ahead and try to get this primed. Someone said something about doing this in another post at another time. If I try to run it on ether do I need to remove this fuel sensor wire?
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12v is typical use for generators so maybe able to use it later.
heres one, again a 12v in town there on main st.
I had considered your tank may look similar as my 9 and it has a couple big lines on it look to be npt fittings one on left 1/2 and another to the right a 3/8 and further right a 3/8 plug in tank.
if this small line could be fitted to which ever went to engine this may work and or find an air leak.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MRG0/12D/N0515.oap?ck=Search_N0515_-1_2739&pt=N0515&ppt=C0128 (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MRG0/12D/N0515.oap?ck=Search_N0515_-1_2739&pt=N0515&ppt=C0128)
Thanks Floyd. I purchased a diesel fuels pump at autozone tonight and at first light tomorrow I'll plumb it in. Of course I've been scouring the web for clues. Here's another question: trying to rule out coolant/oil pressure sensors going bad, if I press the override button on my dash panel and attempt to start the coach, will this bypass any sensor shutdowns?
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Which functions it covers, the over ride I'm here to learn. sorry
do you recall any of the lights blinkin a time or two, these as a hard code shutdown may have left a code if oil or water related, many times fuel issues seldom leave codes.
Scott I'm betting that your bus is really a TMC made right there in Roswell and the aliens have disabled it so they can use it as the mother ship to return home in!
Don't be afraid of them they won't hurt you, they just wanna go home!
;D BK ;D
By "filters not full" what exactly do you mean? Also if the sillycone clogged your fuel system the bus should have died slowly due to cavitation and not "all of a sudden" as with a ruptured/broken pick up line allowing a fair bit of air into the system.
It's a stretch but if you have an air line, blow gun and some reservoir air try capping the filler neck with your hand while pressurizing the tank. If it is a broken or leaking line it may show up by leaking fuel? I thought Roswell had aliens, not gremlins!
Scott, we need to determine is the pump is working fill both filters with fuel and see if they suck down.The fuel pumps are pretty robust but the drive yoke will fail often
Jim, they were about 1/4 of the way down. I've changed my fuel filters tons of times on both my
Coaches and they were always so full that I spilt diesel removing them. I agree with you, the more I read and consider, the less likely a line clog would cause such a sudden shutdown and zero firing restart attempt. Cliff, I bought all the parts tonight to plumb in an electric fuel pump and try to run the coach off a 5 gallon can. I'll report my results tomorrow morning.
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had something like that happen to me . I tried quick start and it would fire but would not run ? it ended up being the starter switch at the dash ?? I removed it cleaned it and it fired right up . are you sure it is not electrical ? the way it stooped it might be ?
mine broke down at the welcome centre after I shut it down for the night in west Virginia , so no aliens on my coach
dave
That's a good and tough learned tip Dave, also checking a few electrics.
I picked up on the starving in the post so figured a slight engine cough, there could be a quick fuse check in bat compartment for not only the fuse circuit but the fuse holder itself, some get black from heat and have loose connection.
Scott
A code check with a & m pin slots on the diagnostic connector may shed a blink light to count.
good luck this morning
Floyd
well...tap tap tap ... waiting, are you up yet ? :)
To see if you are getting power to the ECM, when you turn the switch on the red and yellow lights should come on and then go off. If this doesn't happen you won't start.
If the filters were half full it must be a fuel problem. Those things are a beast to get started when you run out of fuel. Best way with electric fuel pump. good one Fill filters, let pump run for a while and then try and start.
Jack
Mechanical or DDEC if the yoke strips they stop like turning the key off,I think he has a fuel problem too.Scott is a sharp kid he will figure it out I bet
LOL yes I'm up this morning. It's kind of brisk out here for being the desert. So I am still trying to prime the system with the electric fuel pump I am trying to figure out what size the supply line as it appears to be almost 1 inch. So I have to buy some adapters to get from the 5/16 inch fuel hose on the fuel pump to the 1 inch supply flare line at the tank. Once I have it all adapted I can actually run the pump and see if I can get prime. It's not the starter switch the coach died while I was driving down the road at 60 mph I wouldn't think the starter switch with cause that would it Dave?
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Also I can't really read the idiot lights on the dash very well because some of them just don't work at all. I have been slowly trying to sort out the wiring mess that was created by the charter company that used the coach. They Sauter wires together an idiot lights together and I'm not even sure why so I can't really guarantee that those lights can really tell me much. I did reset a 10 amp breaker above the muffler in the rear engine bay there's an electrical panel there. And there was a relay that was popped out I pushed it back in and the 10 amp pushbutton breaker clicked when I pushed on it but the coach is still not starting. No it is not coughing it is not firing at all no smoke nada
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Scott,you need a 3/8th flo through pump if mounting permanent,that one will get you started if it's a fuel problem though ,I'll get you the AirTex number for the pump later
You may have to start it on either and keep it running on it until the fuel gets to the engine.
Jack
Jack I've gone through two cans of either trying to do this. No dice
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Have you checked if there's a relay that's actuated by the front start switch's (the 'ignition' switch) solenoid that then sends power back to the DDEC fuses? Also, if the ECM isn't getting full voltage it will suddenly stop working. I had shutdowns while driving caused by both these factors - a new DDEC power relay and a thorough cleaning of the fuse holder for my main power cable to the front junction box solved that.
John
John I haven't actually checked that specifically because I'm not quite there yet and the list of variable illuminations LOL. I will add this to my list of though. What I'm trying to do right at the moment is to make sure that I get fuel to the coach and I haven't lost prime with all of my messing around. The fuel filters were low on fuel when I first pulled over to the side of the road so I still think it might be fuel related but not 100% sure yet
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Just a guess, if you have gone through two cans of ether and it hasn't attempted to fire it sure sounds like an electrical DDEC problem...
If the filters were low there is definitely a delivery problem.
I would skip trying to tie it in up by the tank and go straight to one of the 1/4 pipe plugs on the filter housing to see if it will run off the can, then back track up line from there!
;D BK ;D
Or talk real nicely to the aliens and maybe they will let it start back up if you promise to take them along!
Pump: the 24 volt one has 3/8" screw on fittings, the 12 volt one has smaller fittings. They are Airtex pumps that you can leave in line, the mechanical fuel pump pulls right through them no problem.
Brian
https://vimeo.com/189013539 (https://vimeo.com/189013539)
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Hey bud your doing great, got us something to think on, have a cup a coffee.
"a movie! theres no end to your talents" Rock On
Floyd
https://vimeo.com/189016580 (https://vimeo.com/189016580)
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https://vimeo.com/189016580 (https://vimeo.com/189016580)
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Sorry for the double post Tapatalk puked again. OK so now I can get the coach to run for several seconds after it's been priming for a while so that confuses me a little. I'm guessing my little tiny 35 gallons per hour priming pump is probably not supplying enough fuel for it to idle? So do I need to prime it and then go ahead and just reconnect the fuel line back to the tank?
Cliff if I could find a flow-through air text pump locally I would do that in a heartbeat. Is this something that I box store might actually carry? That would solve my issue if it was a flow-through I really need one now
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Some times O'rilley's or Auto Zone have it .prime it good and hook back to the tank if dies I think the yoke has stripped or the pump failed was I was closer I have one in the shop,those silly DDEC ll read from the return spill
If you did lose prime say, again, then it sound as though the main pump is not functioning.
In this case it may be required to have a 50psi pump to take its place, and that would be a race pump as most other are maybe 8. in my opinion
and for sure chime in Clifford if this Detroit will run on less psi, I'm not pos on that psi
thanks
Floyd
It will run on less pressure just the power will be down,I think his pump his way to small they need .6 to .9 gpm on the spill back and he is at 35 gph.His engine doesn't have the standard fuel pump either it uses the high volume wide pump.You feel for him and his family but he could be there for a few days waiting on a pump and yoke
https://vimeo.com/189018740 (https://vimeo.com/189018740)
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You guys watch my most recent video the pump appears to be good I have a lot of fuel coming out of the return line every time I turn the engine over so I think we're good on that unless someone tells me otherwise so I can get the engine to run for just a little bit a few seconds and then it dies I think it seems to be running longer every time I try so I think I'm still running into a priming issue I have tighten some loose connections on the ECM wiring grounds I have reset a breaker I have plugged in a relay that was loose so maybe I solved the initial shut down issue now I need to re-prime because I definitely seem to have lost prime. So I'm going to try to get a pump flow through pump I need to find one locally somehow someway
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It needs more fuel than that Scott
Cliff, so the fuel you saw coming out the return line wasn't enough?
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NAPA happens to have the air text pump that I need in stock I'm on my way there right now. But someone do please let me know was that not enough fuel coming out of that fuel line? Cliff is that what you meant? Do you think I still have a fuel pump issue? It seems like a lot of fuel coming out but you guys know better than I do. if the fuel pump were bad would I see any fuel coming out at all?
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It's not a steady stream and most of the time the 95 gpm pump will pump fuel with pressure for over a foot, the inline should help with the pressure and volume till you can get her figured out, may the check valve is full of debris have you check that
I have not checked the check valve where exactly is that? I've always wondered
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It should be on the filter or rear wall where the line come through. A lot of times when the yoke strip's they will pump fuel but won't build pressure because the shaft slips in the yoke, same as when the relief valve on the pump hangs or the spring breaks
Scott what was mentioned .9 being basically amount needed, spill back?
I will assume .9 gpm needed, 1 gallon a minute so this can be easily measured with a bucket marked and a hose going into it, get you stop watch and with pump running.
This is a standard diagnostic check in automotive and very valuable, as psi or required pressure is ok many many time yet not the volume.
I was thinking 50psi needed for the Detroit, this would only be half the need as a fuel volume spec is required, so at .9gpm .
.9x60=54gallons per hour (gph) you may add consumption to this so bump to 80;)
that's basic where I'm at, hth
Floyd
OK Cliff and Floyd, I have the air text pump, I am going to install it right now just before the filter I'm going to check the check valve, and see if I can get her to run I will report back.
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I am also putting a fuel pressure gauge on it. I'm going to try to solve this issue once and for all I don't want to just have to remove the pump unless I really have to remove it because obviously it means removing the coolant line and draining a ton of Coolant
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Agree priority is away from them aliens
When ya get a chance I'm interested in the airtex part no.
Gunk in the check valve is what messed up Sean's Neoplan. Don't forget to check it.
I am curious about the Airtex pump you bought. What model number is it? I have seen posts on this board before that recommended E8131. It's a 24v pump but seems to be only rated at 35 gph not the 55 gph that is being suggested now.
That pump will work for priming Lin I doubt he finds a electric pump that will run the engine over a 1/4 throttle.The sole purpose is to get a solid stream of fuel to the main pump and if it's good it will take over
OK I have primed the daylights out of this thing using the air text pump. And it won't fire. So I'm getting it towed now into Roswell I'm really at a loss.
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I cannot find the check valve for the life of me. Will continue to try tomorrow
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Take your pick they work great. ;D
https://www.amazon.com/Airtex-E8131-Universal-Electric-Fuel/dp/B0027I1N0Y/ref=pd_day0_263_6/166-6675333-2046361?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EBTA9NP10JKE0W2YECNW (https://www.amazon.com/Airtex-E8131-Universal-Electric-Fuel/dp/B0027I1N0Y/ref=pd_day0_263_6/166-6675333-2046361?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EBTA9NP10JKE0W2YECNW)
or
Airtex pump:
PART NUMBER TYPE VOLTS PRESSURE FLOW (GPH) INLET/OUTLET SIZE APPLICATIONS
E8131 Solenoid 24VDC 10-14 PSI 35 3/8 hose 24 Volt Large Diesel Applications
E8153 Solenoid 12VDC 10-14 PSI 35 3/8 hose Diesel Engines
Good luck Scott
Thanks Dan. Dave I already bought and installed the second pump on your list. Engine has been primed. I have fuel coming out the return line. It still won't start. I'm thinking at this point it might be electronic related. The only shop here in Roswell that will has any two stroke knowledge said that they don't have the rectangular plug adapter for their prolink. Does anyone here have one I could either buy and they could rush ship to me here or borrow? I'm good about returning/paying :) I need to read codes to see if:
1. ECM is alive or dead
2. Crankshaft position sensor is alive
3. Throttle position sensor is alive
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Scott I don't have a pro-link or any of the connectors or I'd happily loan them to ya.
You should be able to get a part # for them from Clifford, Ken, or Jack and maybe get one over nighted by Amazon.
;D BK ;D
Airtex requires/ recommends a filter before that pump. It would be better to mount between filters.
Sorry about your troubles. (for what thats worth)
It looks like you have got alot of help here on the board (that is good)
Hope it turns out to be something simple and is just a learning lesson for us all.
Scott,call Stewart and Stevenson in Albuquerque 505-881-3511 ask for Tom he may lend you theirs,I know Larry has a Kent/Moore reader for those but I am unable to reach him,Tom will probably help but it's a 3 hr drive each way from you.Get the the stop engine and check engine lights fix then you can pull your codes
Scott I just put those Part numbers up for other who wanted them. Good luck to you guys. Just another story eh!.... ;D
Dave5Cs
Scott, when it did run for the short periods, did you notice any smoke from the exhaust? Years ago (read many) we had a stroker with a partially seized shaft on the emergency shut down. Was enough to shut it down from high speed but would rough idle. Not much chance of that is it? Was a long time ago and can't recall conditions 100% but just one more thing to stroke of the "check list" and it doesn't cost a thing.
Thanks guys. It's towed into a truck yard and I have a guy coming out today with a reader. Jim do I even have an emergency shut down on a ddec ii motor? Where is it? Cliff, State Farm wants to charge me to tow it to Albuquerque. The tow to Roswell was $1300. No lie. Ken Arnold has been helpful too. He's willing to ship me his unit if need be
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No smoke at all from exhaust
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Scott, on the front pulley that has 8v92 embossed check behind it to be sure the pickup sensor hasn't come loose
Cliff I looked and looked and could not find a sensor anywhere?(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161027%2F86f136f05b6edb6cef3b391423d02bdb.jpg&hash=a9ec52dcb7999329c24b7e5cb19bca42f3e8babe)(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161027%2Ff73f3247e5fc832fe05690f6277c80b9.jpg&hash=50e60b9c5ee88e65bc7c0a5bccae41b54f58db9a)(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161027%2Fc53198bea5adf4811b58fd185a7117de.jpg&hash=9ba1400662c72ab925ffb4740e3be31ac43cd72f)
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Look a little deeper on the back side of the end plate there should be 4 wires 2 sensors with 2 plugs unless the aliens struck :o ,but I want you to check the pulse wheel that is held in place with screws to the pulley ck and see if it is loose
possibly at 12 backside is a mount, adjacent left should be one.
itsa 2 flips standing on your head thing they stuff it in
and glad your in town, good day
Floyd
Ok checking this right now. I left my wiring schematic in Michigan. Anyone can tell me what wire 952 is?
From what I can find for a DDEC2 wire 952 is throttle position sensor ground HTH It's for a Peterbilt but DDEC wiring probably the same.
DDEC2 wiring info link..
http://84.204.204.67/Electro/SK20627.pdf (http://84.204.204.67/Electro/SK20627.pdf)
spot on Timkar,
I think Detroit wiring, so its pretty much used throughout the builders probably.
showing 417 and 916, with the 952 you mention for the tps
now ? is why
Here is a link to DDEC2 troubleshooting manual from the wanderlodge forum (large file)
http://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/downloads/DDEC%20I,%20II%20and%20III-IV%20Schematics_files/DDEC_TS.pdf (http://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/downloads/DDEC%20I,%20II%20and%20III-IV%20Schematics_files/DDEC_TS.pdf)
I have the 500 page DDEC II troubleshooting manual thanks to Ken Arnold, but I'm still trying to sort out where to look first. In the rear wiring panel above the muffler of the bus (drivers side, side engine door) I noticed wire 952 just hanging loose with a bare end. There's a three prong plug hanging nearby with only two wires going to it. Labeled "A" "B" "C". This plug plugs into another plug that has resisters stuck in it and everything is heatshrink tubed. Any thoughts?(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161027%2Feabd6338ec8efc712c92e0a29ab4f2b5.jpg&hash=582f106c819f53a8dfe37a4adb30988822b5c463)(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161027%2F1547dbb176162c0d1070d0b8bb990935.jpg&hash=e62e7eb349b55c78549244045401fa269a0980d6)(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161027%2F5538617afa5167061f64f00d5b324b60.jpg&hash=23a6a5e693cc4e6cc1e9127838fa96dc9b057fa9)(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161027%2F641e2f0f26a2d549bf9076843e3db3a5.jpg&hash=6ca818d96c902f4e0ffccd84d38316f8cbf9bda3)
On my bus 916 is a 5V Sensor Supply (red/black) and 417 is a Throttle Position Signal. 916 and 952 (Sensor Return, black) in my bus go from the Fast Idle switch through two resistors to the Williams accelerator pedal, from where 417 goes back to the ECM. If any of these wires or the resistors are kaput, the engine won't fire - at least, mine didn't when I had some bad wiring for the Fast idle.
John
Quote from: Scott & Heather on October 27, 2016, 03:29:27 PM
I have the 500 page DDEC II troubleshooting manual thanks to Ken Arnold, but I'm still trying to sort out where to look first. In the rear wiring panel above the muffler of the bus (drivers side, side engine door) I noticed wire 952 just hanging loose with a bare end. There's a three prong plug hanging nearby with only two wires going to it. Labeled "A" "B" "C". This plug plugs into another plug that has resisters stuck in it and everything is heatshrink tubed. Any thoughts?
My only thoughts are that the copper on that wire looks pretty fresh like a break occurred recently, but pictures can be deceiving. On the other hand the wire strands look pretty twisted if they just pulled loose from something.
One annoying thing about my bus is cut wires everywhere under the dash. Everything works and has mostly worked for years, but it makes troubleshooting harder. You never know if something broke or came loose, or if it was just cut long ago.
They break the system into 2 parts 1 is the DDC responsibility which covers the engine the other is the OEM responsibility that covers the rest of the wiring, you never know with the wires without the OEM wiring schematics it really sucks most of the time. The 500 page trouble shooting manual is sorta of useless without the application and OEM manuals IMO
Scott that's where it goes on mine, I didn't remove mine as I cannot find the larger release tool, seems I have tool for the other side.
Floyd
Been talking a lot to Ken and he's working me through this but we are still at a loss. I can't get any check engine light to come on and I've even spliced into wire 419 at the ECM to try and get flashes on a test light but nothing. He's sending me an ECM and diagnostic tools/computer to read codes but i won't get it until probably Tuesday of next week. This is starting to bum us
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Can confirm with your book and Ken, I'm showing both red stop engine light #509probably purple, and yellow check engine light #419probably purple/white both share or use #439 probably pink going to ECM connector
Floyd
I found pin for 19 at the ECM connector and I spliced my TestFlight into it still no check engine flash codes
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419 and test light. Autocorrect mistake sorry
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I don't know about your machine in particular, but can you manually bump the rack and crank the engine? Wouldn't that tell you what side the problem is on?
Ken and Cliff and I have spent time trying to diagnose as well as several other members here...the basic conclusion right now is that the coach is getting fuel (fully primed, and pumping fuel out of return line) so we don't think as of yet it's a fuel pump/line clog. I can suck fuel out of the tank with my inline airtex priming pump without issue. So for now that's out of the running. Still could be:
1. ECM failure
2. Sensor failure/fault that caused shutdown and no restart
a. Crankshaft/Camshaft position sensors
b. Oil pressure/level sensor
c. Coolant temp/level sensor
3. Short/Low votage/blown fuse to ECM
Can't think of anything else. I really need to find a definitive way to eliminate a coolant/oil sensor fault/failure from the equation. I wish I knew truly how to bypass those. I can't be sure my override switch is working. It never lights up and half the stuff on my dash doesn't work anyway. So I need to bypass those sensors to eliminate them as a possibility.
That 439 wire is the 12v power wire for the 419cel light, and the 509stop engine light with the ecm completing the circuit however it needs to.
either blinking or solid depending on situation.
To me if this circuit is good this test light setup should come on as normal key on operations would, and then if at diagnostic connector in cab. Using the access method for code retrieval this setup should blink the codes.
By the way were you able to connect the earlier broken connector.
good evening
Floyd
You got to break it down in chunks to troubleshoot. You can't chase it down rabbit holes. You have fuel to the injectors and it doesn't fire. What breaks the safety circuits. Of course the ECU can be at fault, but I have seen stacks of those things changed out and that wasn't the problem. I assume you have the correct voltage to the unit from your pictures. I worked on ships, so someone else paid for labor, and for parts.
Thanks floyd I haven't determined where the 952 wire that's bare ended goes yet. But I have started to be more methodical like brassman said. I'm going through the "turns over but doesn't start" diagnostics in the ddec ii troubleshooting manual. Without any code reader and zero check engine light, I'm in the dark. I really need to know how to bypass the shutdown sensors like coolant level and temp/oil level/pressure. This would help me to eliminate these sensors as a cause of my shutdown no start. Then it's crankshaft/camshaft position sensor and I've already determined from others' experiences on the forum that a throttle position sensor fault wouldn't shut me down and cause a no start. So that's out of the running. I'm going to purchase fresh fuses tomorrow and swap out every one that I can just because I have nothing better to do while I wait for ken Arnold's Detroit reader and spare ECM which won't arrive here until Tuesday. I've already canceled my events scheduled in Tucson this weekend. So we are just sitting tight until I resolve this. Cliff had a great suggestion that we have it towed to Stewart and Stevenson in Albuquerque but after talking to State Farm I'm skeptical they'll pay for the tow and since our little 16 mile tow to Roswell was $1300 I am not interested in paying for a 3 hour nearly 200 mile tow to Albuquerque. And then paying them $120 an hour to chase this down...I guess if it comes to that I'll revisit this option for sure...but I could fly cliff or ken here and hotel them and feed them for less than that lol.
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Cliff has asked me to check the crank sensor behind the pulley stamped 8v92. I can't see anything back there but of course there are wire harnesses back there so I know the sensor is there. Do I need to remove this pulley to get to that sensor?
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Scott as far as diagnosing this issue, your doing great, we all seriously wish it was not as expensive as it is. Most wrench benders on this site dam well know its not whipity snap and get lucky.
The millions of dollars designing troubleshooting pages/scripts the manufactures print and teach in professional training requires a systematic approach, (this saves money) (.) and I have no coffee yet
Anyway that 952wire goes to the terminal you had pictured, and is part of a tps (chunk), in the 5" big book ya got will be thousands of test for these parts, yes they are a pita, but again just what they teach to trained professionals.
I will have to pick up another electronic terminal removal tool I guess.
oh ya I couldn't get my fingers behind that pulley if I tried, so checking if the tone ring is secure would take great eyes and other fragile test no crow bars here.
its Friday!
Floyd
Scott & Heather I feel for you as I have never had the exact problem you are having right now.
However I have had some hair pulling experiences.
I don't know about the sensor behind the pulley as I never had one give me troubles nor even had one of those pulleys off.
My common sense thinking tells me the pulley would have to come off to replace it and with that thinking I'd say pull the pulley to see if there is in fact a problem there.
If it is the problem then ahah, your one step ahead in the repair end of it? If not what have ya lost besides the 1/2 to 1 hr that it took to get the tools needed and get the pulley off and back on. After all at this point you got 5 days with nothing else to do. (except maybe find a local church or vacant building to put on a show for the locals AKA Aliens, after which they might be kind enough to tell the gremlin they put on your bus to release his spell)
Now speaking of shows I'm sorry you had to cancel but wouldn't it have been as easy to drive on to Tuscan in the toad do the shows and return Tues to work on the bus? (jest curious and yes I realize the bus is your home and no one like to leave it sitting abandoned near all those aliens any longer than necessary!)
;D BK ;D
BTW did you reconnect the loose wire and try it?
;D BK ;D
Floyd, I confirmed with Ken this morning that indeed that 952 wire belonged in the "A" slot of that resistor plug. It is the ground for the TPS. That wire being pulled out can't be helping the situation any so I soldered it back in just now. Coach still won't start but at least that's out of the way. BK, haha, Roswell is actually a weirdly normal place....only weirdness is that it's rosewell. Anyway, BK I may come to removing that pulley. I still really want to see what codes this is throwing. Kills me not to have a reader on hand. The events I had scheduled in Tucson were just "pass the hat" events nothing I was contracted for pay, so I can't be sure they would have made it financially even break even for me to come...and right now I'm keeping finances tight hold until we know if this fix will be $$$
low coolant sensor. paper clip between plug wires at tank. unplug and jump. I know nothing about MCI side. You have the best working on it! Also past experience with fuel pressure switch on /close to filter= bad wire crimp end. Yow did check light bulbs ib dash lights and make sure voltage is getting beyond ignition switch when on? Ken has already caught you up on wire codes. Please post results.
Scott, don't remove the pulley till you get a reader, I hope this thing don't come back with the code 25 ;D
A bad crank or cam sensor can definitely shut the engine down, but it is still strange that when this first started the fuel was low in the filters, and you have yet to see any white smoke when it cranks with the inline pump added. Let's hope some codes will show with the reader.
Thanks Bob. Will see if I can jumper the coolant level sensor just for fun. Cliff, hahahah. Don't jinx me. Walter, if the crank/can sensor were toast, would it shut off fuel to the injectors? If so then no amount of priming or fuel would get
Me white smoke I would guess right? The fuel filters being low (they were about an inch down from the top) is weird to me.
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An inch down from the top is not a lot, I had the impression you were down much more. The electronic controls & sensors are top candidates now, in my opinion, but those with electronic Detroit's would have more experience with such things (I stayed mechanical ;)) My trucks have been shut down by sensors, buy they were newer Volvo's and Internationals.
I recall my low coolant issue in the drive way after setting a while, it would consistently start run perfect 10-15 seconds maybe and like clockwork shut down. fwiw
I may have missed it but has there been mention of the fuel sensor n the filter housing 2nd believe. ? curious with the low amount in filter also, but
But anyway the cam sensors! no connecto no run o. (nice tech usage turning motor over without startup on most, in a shop setting)
so with some carful hand testing the front pulley sensor as in the book, resistance ohm's maybe checked here with the cen tec. not sure spec across with it un plugged.
with more carefull test possibly an ac, or book spec. test reading can be had while sensor connected by way of back side testing the connector, with fancy paper clip if avail, this is its pickup test from the tone ring/or whatever they call it.
To close for lunch these dang 500pg books I remember buying different manufactures, these are only part of it then there's parts, and omg Electrical. well guys before this here internet cd stuff this was the prize, consider for just a moment in 86 bought my first jd book at 600buckaroos again only 1 of the required books. In the shop I needed different books for each different model tractor, loader, roller, grader, vehicle so paper gold they were.
good day
Floyd
WE ARE UP AND RUNNING. I finally checked 12 V power to the actual ECM harness connector not the power connector the power connector has always had 12 V but I guess that 12 V feeds the injectors. The actual power to the ECM the 12 V wasn't making it all the way to the ECM because the relay in the back died. So I did not have 12 V to the ECM via pin 439 so I jump or 12 V to that pen and she fired right up. Thank all of you for your help. Been a long four days. Ken Arnold has been on the phone with me several times a day, cliff has facebooked me and you guys all just helped me so much to chase this down. I also know a lot more about my coach electrical system now. Wow! On a sidenote this appears to be a similar fix that beachfinn (Sami) had to use on his MC 12 a while back.
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Awesome!
I was just sitting here going over some things in my head and looking back at notes from problems I've had in the past trying to see what we were all missing!
Glad to hear yer up and running!
;D BK ;D
OH but wait now you really do need to put on a pass the hat show for the aliens because yer stuck there until Tuesday waiting on the package Ken sent you! ;)
;D BK ;D
Thats why the Aliens wouldn't let you go because your ECM ( Electronic Communication Machine ) was not getting through to them. HA :o ::) ;D
Congrats Dave5Cs
That's got to feel good, real good! Awesome - have been following this closely - most of it was above this dinosaur but was really impressive watching it unfold in real time. Great job guys! Have fun Scott!
That's got to feel good till you sit down and total up the cost for this adventure. Wow! I feel for you.
Congratulations! I've been following this like everyone else, and I'm glad that it came to a positive outcome. I wasn't any help on this one because my beast is mechanically injected, but the combined knowledge of this board is outstanding. A great group of folks willing to help a fellow bus nut get back on the road. Awesome.
Quote from: Debo on October 28, 2016, 12:01:11 PMCongratulations! I've been following this like everyone else, and I'm glad that it came to a positive outcome. ...
Same here. Sorry about the expenses you incurred so far (including loss of work) but at least that's the end of it. Good luck from here! BH
Finally ... the feel good moment.
Note to self: Put those spare relays I bought in the tool box.
One little relay brought the whole bus down, paint the new one day-glo orange with two eyes on it! There is much to be said for being self-reliant and knowing as much about your bus as possible, but it is also true that your willingness to share your troubles with us (repeatedly) generates a lot of good responses. You must feel very relieved, why, it's almost worth the $1300 tow, right? ::)
Very glad you are going again, Scott. We are all breathing a little easier now.
Davy
Saaaaawwwwweeeeeet!
NEXT STOP
PORTLAND!!!!
-Sean
Congratulations on the happy ending to much frustration. I sure do like my mechanical engine! Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: B_K on October 28, 2016, 10:28:40 AM
Awesome!
I was just sitting here going over some things in my head and looking back at notes from problems I've had in the past trying to see what we were all missing!
Glad to hear yer up and running!
;D BK ;D
Don't know if you still have the Cityliner but mine quit like this on a HOT summer day when a 20 amp breaker in the center junction box gave up the ghost. Fortunately I had a spare with me. Hint was that the check engine light did not come on.
1st: Sorry you had the delay and cost.
It must feel good to wooooop it.
Nothing here applies to me, but it was very intresting in real time.
Thank you for sharing.
Man-man, there was some reading here, that is for sure. Kind of neat watching you work your way thru the problem. Take two atta-boys outta petty cash for a job well done.
You certainly are deserving.
Might be something about the Roswell area? We were down there and broke a throttle body on the old hoopie and could only pull 1,100 rpm's out of it. Towing it home was not an option, as it was over 650 miles, and it was Thanksgiving. Drove it home on a King
Kruise control, it was a challenge, but we made it.
(https://ldsrr91.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/05-12-09_1333.jpg?w=1700)
Our last tow was in Atlanta to Williams Diesel and the entire thing was $850 for the tow and he pulled it 56 miles. They also dropped the drive shaft, but it turned out to be a good deal too. It needed attention also.
You might think about a membership in Coach Net, it could be a good option for you. Having used them several times in the past, blown tires, what have you, they have proved to be a good road tool for us. In the end, they will take care of you without a lot of the hassle, which is something we could all do with less of these days, I am sure you would agree?
One parting note.
My neighbor (the guy who mows his yard on the Green John Deere Lawn Tractor and wears the tin-foil hat just in case) said that there are NO aliens in Roswell any more. He states they now all live in Washington D.C. and they are easy to spot, they apparently all drive Volvo's.
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Sorry I couldn't help with any ideas, the ecm on my 4104 never gave me a problem ;) glad you are up and running, great trouble shooting!
I had faith he would get it done lol I am glad he didn't have the Pro/Link the dreadful code 25 would have drove him nuts
Quote from: luvrbus on October 29, 2016, 06:43:49 AM
I had faith he would get it done lol I am glad he didn't have the Pro/Link the dreadful code 25 would have drove him nuts
Cliff,
What is this dreaded code 25??
25 means there are no codes activate or stored lol the Pro/Link is not a cure all for a DDEC sometime you have to do just like Scott trace till you give out,kick back relax for a couple of hours (days sometime) then go after it again
Quote from: luvrbus on October 29, 2016, 07:52:57 AM25 means there are no codes activate or stored ...
Yeah, that's a tough one to trace down - esp. when the engine won't start!
Quote from: Lee Bradley on October 29, 2016, 12:22:30 AM
Don't know if you still have the Cityliner but mine quit like this on a HOT summer day when a 20 amp breaker in the center junction box gave up the ghost. Fortunately I had a spare with me. Hint was that the check engine light did not come on.
Yes I still have it! It still sits right where I parked it the day it followed me home ::) !
I have been so busy running up and down the highways I haven't had any time to get it re-titled as a motor home and I'm not going to spend a bunch of time & $ building it until it's titled in my name as a motor home.
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on October 29, 2016, 10:02:17 AM
Yeah, that's a tough one to trace down - esp. when the engine won't start!
I can read codes from my CEL/SEL with only the ignition key on, without the engine actually running. Is this normal, or are other DDEC buses different? I think my Pro-Link will also display codes and some static data without the engine running, but I've not checked that yet.
Scott, I rewired my voltage gauge so it now reads straight off my main 100A feed from the alternator and start batteries. It was wired originally through a circuit breaker and through the ignition circuit - it now gives a completely accurate indication of the voltage going into the ECM. Well worth doing. I've also learnt to always keep a spare cube relay and a spare Cole-Hersee solenoid "just in case . . ."
John
Thanks for the kudos. I honestly
Have to give the final credit to Ken Arnold (hard headed ken) for telling me directly over the phone to check for 12volts at pin 439. When it didn't have 12 volts he told me to give it 12 volts. I tapped into my license plate light and viola it started. From there I was able to chase down the relay that died and am waiting on Luke to get me one this coming week. For now, the bus turns on with the lights and won't shut off without the lights being shut off lol. https://vimeo.com/189483961 (https://vimeo.com/189483961)
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Here's a nice video in reflection https://vimeo.com/189484014 (https://vimeo.com/189484014)
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Don, btw, we do have roadside assistance through State Farm and they paid for the tow :)
Cliff, don't ever wish the code 25 on me ever!! Lol. I do agree though it would have sent me bonkers.
John, my CEL doesn't work. It never has. I have traced the pin on the ECM harness for the cel (419) and I'm planning on running a fresh circuit from there to the dash so I can have one.
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If you get that Silverleaf you talked about it should be able to display codes. I don't know if it will actually flash or something if you get a code set. My lights work so I just check the log on the Silverleaf if my light comes on.
The SilverLeaf and the lights are good to show and flash the codes but you still need DDC software on a lap top or a Pro/link to delete the codes
And remember,
The silver leaf taps into the DDR plug wires so if the check engine signal (419) isn't getting up there, silver leaf isn't going to read any check engine codes.
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Scott do you have a cel in the front driver side bay hvac junction box? I was able to retrieve codes that way when my dash cel bulb was burned out.
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No hvac junction box. It's a generator bay now :)
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way back I posted about looking at the check engine and stop engine lights. That is the first thing to check if the engine doesn't start. You had said the lights might have been changed.. I checked mine and the check engine is the second from left at bottom row and the stop engine is the third on same row. If they don't come on start with the power to the ECM.
Sure glad it is going now. I have been gone to a rally and just got back. That was good news.
Jack
Thanks Jack! I'll have plenty of other stories in the future :)
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