Ken Arnold has been such a wonderful resource and has spent some of his precious time fine tuning some programming settings on our ECM of our 8v92TA DDEC II. The changes he's made have made quite a difference. Tonight after his most recent magic, I am amazed how well the coach responds to throttle input. Wow...it's quite the monster. Had some nice hills to contend with and they didn't cause an issue whatsoever. I'm consistently passing most commercial trucks and can hold 70-75 mph for hours at a time even on hills. This all being said, we noticed I'm only getting about 14psi of boost. Cliff suspected we might have a turbo boost issue and it appears he was right. Ken checked our motor thoroughly and it doesn't appear like there are any obvious soot stains where boost might be leaking. At his recommendation I'll be putting a filter minder on to see if I have an intake restriction. Air filter is brand new. (https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161006%2F2e74601d80d9361d410b67940863d348.jpg&hash=319adfcb7c85543090e560254cec84dea02d4849)
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Scott, assuming the turbo is in good shape, finding leaks on the manifolds of the 8V92 requires a very discerning eye. One area that is typical is at the ends of the manifolds at the rear of the block.
That is an area that typically is black and dirty so sooting is hard if not impossible to see. If I remember correctly the ear on the manifold can crack and that is hard to see, but also the manifold gasket can fail in that area.
They don't run on high boost pressure just cruising down the road 10 to 14 # is normal,a long hard pull it should increase up to 18 to 21 psi.
Air filter toss the factory air filter assembly and install a ECO system with 1500 cfm your engine will love it,the factory air filter was for a 400 hp engine lol don't buy the K&N I do not want to be shipping you parts ;D
Scott you have met the eastern version of Cliff and Don put together.
Then we have Gene and David also. Would put BK in that group.
But he just likes to drive and eat, don't we BK.
uncle ned
Lol. Well I have yet to meet Cliff. But we are hoping to meet him before I turn 95. Here's where I'm at right now:
Today my filter minder arrived at NAPA. I'll put it on and see if I have any measurable restriction. I'll take Cliffs advice and upgrade to the eco filter if I can find the proper part number for my C3. I am tightening all clamps. I'm also changing the oil today and doing a couple of other maintenance items before I hit the road again Thursday. I'm hoping to pay Scott Crosby to help me with a couple of other things while we are in Indiana for a week (trans fluid/filter change, etc). I'll report back.
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Do you have the Silverleaf yet? Hard pull, engine at max power no less than 26 lbs. If more that is good.
Jack
Scott, you won't find the proper part number for an Eco filter for a C3. You have to look for one that will fit in your available space, with the right size in and out openings (5" probably), and the right orientation (coming off the ends, or one pipe on the end, the other at a 90* angle, etc). And of course 1500 cfm. I would get the biggest one that fits in your space. Some are unidirectional, some you can use either way. Lots to choose from. Donaldson has them. Other brands carry them too, I think?
I have been using one for 3 or 4 years now since Clifford convinced me. I love them. I don't replace them as often now, since I moved the air intake high on the side of the bus near the roof. I cut one open once to look. Very well made. Doesn't look like they could come apart even soaking wet.
JC
Scott I forgot to mention the other scott. only met him once at Blytheville.
Seemed like a nice young man.
And loves to work on old Detroits and has a nack for mechanical things, wish i was a little younger.
Did Ken let you ride in the "PREVOSE" a amazing piece of work.
uncle ned
Quote from: lostagain on October 11, 2016, 07:29:38 AM
Scott, you won't find the proper part number for an Eco filter for a C3. You have to look for one that will fit in your available space, with the right size in and out openings (5" probably), and the right orientation (coming off the ends, or one pipe on the end, the other at a 90* angle, etc). And of course 1500 cfm. I would get the biggest one that fits in your space. Some are unidirectional, some you can use either way. Lots to choose from. Donaldson has them. Other brands carry them too, I think?
I have been using one for 3 or 4 years now since Clifford convinced me. I love them. I don't replace them as often now, since I moved the air intake high on the side of the bus near the roof. I cut one open once to look. Very well made. Doesn't look like they could come apart even soaking wet.
JC
I use the largest Racor ECO-BC filter made, the 094973002 model that has more than enough CFM for my engine. It has a 7" top inlet, a 7" lower side outlet, a one-way drain in the bottom in case rains gets inside, and it seems very well made. When I got mine I could not find anyone in the entire country that had one in stock! Harbor Diesel in Long Beach CA quoted the lowest price, and it was made to order for me by Racor in Modesto CA - this way it was not sitting on a shelf somewhere for ten years drying out and becoming brittle.
After I installed it I notice more power and the turbo whistles louder, so I guess the old filter was constricting the engine. I now get 26 PSI at full boost. Just make sure your air intake is high so it can't suck in road dirt.
John
does anyone use a manometer anymore ?
with filter out (Housing closed as operational) and then filter in ?
Quote from: Scott & Heather on October 11, 2016, 06:02:47 AM
Lol. Well I have yet to meet Cliff. But we are hoping to meet him before I turn 95. Here's where I'm at right now:
Today my filter minder arrived at NAPA. I'll put it on and see if I have any measurable restriction. I'll take Cliffs advice and upgrade to the eco filter if I can find the proper part number for my C3. I am tightening all clamps. I'm also changing the oil today and doing a couple of other maintenance items before I hit the road again Thursday. I'm hoping to pay Scott Crosby to help me with a couple of other things while we are in Indiana for a week (trans fluid/filter change, etc). I'll report back.
Not saying Scott couldn't do the fluid change but sometimes the 755 and 748 Allison start throwing codes when the fluid is changed it's best IMO take it to Allison just in case they have equipment to delete those codes BTDT ;D
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Good to know. Striking the trans flush for now then. Ok just put on a filter minder and floored the throttle. Not getting any restriction. I mean the yellow disc drops to literally the first line (the least amount of restriction). So do I still need to upgrade to the eco? What are the chances my MAP sensor needs to be replaced?
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They don't use a MAP sensor,what injectors and turbo did Ken say you had ? I am sure the 450 to 500 hp used the 4475 injectors and the TV 8513 turbo with a A/R of 1.39 and the 400 hp MCI used the 4915 injectors with the TV 8513 turbo with the A/R of 1.23.The A/R of 1.23 may not be enough but I'll check on that for you
Quote from: luvrbus on October 11, 2016, 06:54:30 PM
They don't use a MAP sensor,what injectors and turbo did Ken say you had ? I am sure the 450 to 500 hp used the 4475 injectors and the TV 8513 turbo with a A/R of 1.39 and the 400 hp MCI used the 4915 injectors with the TV 8513 turbo with the A/R of 1.23.The A/R of 1.23 may not be enough but I'll check on that for you
He's right they don't have a MAP sensor!
They do have a BOOST sensor that LOOKS like a MAP sensor, but it is a Detroit Diesel part and is MOST DEFINITELY NOT A MAP sensor!
;D BK ;D
Ok correct me on this, when I look up the part number for the turbo boost sensor (little guy that has a 1/4" vacuum hose running from it to the turbo housing) it comes up cross referencing with a GM map sensor. Are they just using a MAP sensor as a turbo boost sensor?
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I'll ask Ken Cliff. I never wrote that down. Thing is, right now I'm getting amazing power. But he had to manually add fuel at lower boost levels. Which is meaning more smoke. I'd love to see it add fuel automatically and actually raise boost.
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If I recall they they use a 3 bar sensor(43 psi) most MAP sensors are 1 or 2 bars and I slept in my own bed last night not a Holiday Inn.With the smoke I think you are running to small of a A/R housing on the turbo those engine burn fairly clean when all the stars are in alignment
I had really no smoke to speak of until we tweaked the no-boost fueling numbers. But that's what it took to get power. I have not yet been able to get my hands on the silver leaf. We are in a different place nearly every week, so I'm still waiting for a quiet couple of weeks to order it and have it shipped
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Scott you are up against the same problem that I have had in the past. If you want fuel before the boost comes up you are going to smoke. There is no way to get around that. Ken, Martie and I have worked on mine for 3 years to keep the smoke down and still have power when you take off. I think my 50 series is as good as it will get now. It has been a tough job to get it to the point it is now.
When I had the 8V92 in my coach I never tried to change it. A little slow to about 10 miles per hr then it went fine.
Jack
Scott, you are dealing with a 2 stroke engine not a 4 stroke, the blower has a by pass valve either a mini by pass or full by pass valve that opens when the turbo boost reaches 6 lbs letting the blower spin freely.
If you have 14 lbs of boost on level ground at 1700 or 1800 rpm you are doing good.If you want a good setup with plenty of power less HP,less smoke and more torque less fuel usage,if you want the information can furnish it to you it is easy to get 1450 + ft lbs of torque from a 8v92 @ 450 hp or 475 hp @ 1300 rpm.
Remember you are dealing with a engine that has a air box any little leak in that section like a gasket on the inspection covers or bad air box check (drain) valves will affect your boost pressure
Jack, yeah it's been interesting watching ken work
With this beast. He's very good at what he does. Cliff, if you have the fuel table numbers or boi numbers, please do email me whatever you have. Ken is experienced but each engine is different and trying to dial this in has been a small challenge. I will reiterate, currently with fuel pushed hard before boost it drives like a rocket. I am not over exaggerating this. I passed trucks on some slight grades while accelerating from 70-75mph. It's unbelievable. Yesterday I pulled up on some steep ramps I made. These are the same ramps that I could never use with my mci 9 6v92 because it could never get up them. These are also the same ramps that my C3 couldn't get up without a running start just hoping I didn't fly right over the edge. Now, I press the throttle, black smoke ensues, turbo spools and bus climbs up the ramps without drama. From a stop, I have plenty of power to pull away from traffic lights with ease and actually stay with the flow of car traffic. It really is amazing. All while driving a coach that weighs 38,000lbs towing a truck that weighs 6500lbs. Crazy. I have no idea what my current MPG is. I'm scared to check.
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If the power gets little too much, I could use few more hp 🤓
I'm at 28,000lbs plus a wrangler, and while not bad, it's 32mph over Rockies on I-70. Not heat issues though..
Anybody know of a guy who knows a guy close to AZ?
Ken is a master with the electronics he has helped me before,this 1 I think is going to need some different hardware if you are planning on running 475 hp, the 500 hp 8v92 even had different cams than yours for emission control (smoke)
When you get through with all your playing with the two stroke think about a good 4 stroke engine. My 102C3 only had 135,00 miles when I went to the series 50. Never would I go back.
The way you work it would only take a week end to make the change.
Jack
The 8v92 is not that bad of a engine
No Cliff the 8v92 isn't a bad engine. The problem it has is also yours and mine. It is old, now we need to get on with the new. Look who went to the 4 stroke, you, Ken and at least 25 more.
The 8V92 will be here when we are both gone, but still not as good as the 4 stroke.
Jack