BCM Community

Just spent the month of Sept traveling in my S&S from South Dakota to Maryland and on  to Florida. Saw only one converted MCI, NO Eagles and NO GM's. Started me thinking - what brought me to the hobby 25 years ago was seeing the converted buses on the road - so started thinking about the state of this hobby we love. Why no conversions on the road? Are the buses and or owners getting too old? Wrong time of the year? Saw a LOT of RV's, just no conversions. In this day of somewhat lower diesel costs the lack of traffic in conversions has me wondering if our hobby is dyeing. Any thoughts??
Thanks
JimH

Jim, we Fulltime, and travel around 45,000 miles a year combined between bus and car. We see private buses all the time. MCI's Eagles, Prevosts. Most of the Prevosts are tour buses for musicians, but we see private units too. Squint a little harder...maybe you're paying better attention to the road and I'm probably not paying enough attention to the road lol. But we keep an eye out and between my wife and I we see plenty of private coaches out there. Our newest coach (102C3) is getting a lot of attention as we go place to place. Even here at the campground we are currently at, people have come up to us and asked us about it. These buses still turn heads. Hobby isn't dying. You should see the insane amount of activity on the BCM Facebook group page. Its nuts over there....in a good way


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I agree with Scott & Heather, after the almost 12,000 mile Alaska road trip we just returned from, lots of conversions, not nearly as many as RVs but enough to notice on a daily basis. Canada & Alaska probably seen more up there than in the States.

I see a resurgence in the hobby in the past year. There was a period of about 2-3 years when diesel prices were $4 and up when people parked their buses, or decided it didn't make sense to have a conversion. That has changed some and there are new and younger people getting into it all the time. The online presence has changed also, with the advent of social media. I see a lot of new faces on Facebook that I never saw on BCM. I think the tides are changing from the dedicated bulletin board site to the social media sites. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing, due to the limited search capabilities, but it is the current wave. 

I am at a complete loss when bus owners use high fuel prices as a justification for leaving the bus parked.

If owners were honest and thought about what is spent on a bus annually, especially those expenses not related to mileage they would realize the added cost of fuel is unimportant.

Tires, air bags, brake chamber diaphragms, and batteries age out. Every one has their own definition of aging out, but the reality is whether the bus sits or is driven the meter is ticking on those items. Then there is insurance. And despite what we all wish wouldn't happen, buses don't do well when not driven and all kinds of stuff stops working or creates issues.

While a very old coach is unlikely to suffer from  depreciation some coaches do and those usually have a greater amount of depreciation than fuel at any price.

We travel a lot and I cannot say we see a lot of bus conversions in our travels. We see a lot of entertainer coaches, far more than motorhomes.

Quote from: Jon on October 03, 2016, 08:42:11 AM... If owners were honest and thought about what is spent on a bus annually, especially those expenses not related to mileage they would realize the added cost of fuel is unimportant.   

      Very true, of course. It applies to airplanes, sports cars, boats and just about everything else that it's stupid to own unless you really want it.

It's NOT a hobby .... it's a way of life!  ;)

Quote from: Jon on October 03, 2016, 08:42:11 AM
I am at a complete loss when bus owners use high fuel prices as a justification for leaving the bus parked.

If owners were honest and thought about what is spent on a bus annually, especially those expenses not related to mileage they would realize the added cost of fuel is unimportant.

I think you are oversimplifying it. People's lives change over time. Their ability to afford things fluctuates and sometimes priorities have to take precedence over luxuries.

In my case, my belief was that if I couldn't afford to use it I should not have built it. I believed that right up until I couldn't justify the cost of $4 a gallon diesel for it. Then my bus sat for a couple years and then I got another job and diesel prices came down and now we can afford to use it again and yes, I'm fixing things on it that are reaching their life span.

I see a few bus conversions on occasion locally but they always seem to be going the opposite direction of me. The RV park that we go to usually has a few but when I stop and ask it seems they just bought it from someone else so they know little about the build except what they can show me. A lot of the younger generation wants something they can just get in and go now and not have to wait as they build it. It is us crazy "BUS NUTS" that want to buy something old and needing a renovation that wants a bus conversion. I just spent a few days putting down a new Armstrong click/lock vinyl floor and now my knees are letting me know that this is something I would not want to do as a living. My wife thinks we should name our bus Blood Sweat and Tears for all we put into the conversion just to say we did it our way. With all the great deals I see for newer buses on Ebay and other sites hopefully there are some youngsters willing to do the Blood Sweat and Tears and do it their way. Would I do it again, only if I was 30 to 40 years old, not 60 to 70 years old. Good Luck and Enjoy !

I would say that the downturn in the economy from 2007 on put a damper on activity, and the fuel prices compounded that. As far as seeing Eagle's, MCI's, Prevost's and GMC's on the road goes, the older ones are diminishing in number because they are not being made anymore, and the newer ones, that are made, are pricey. The enrollment in FMCA has dropped, which indicates that RV's are affected as well. While there are younger people that are getting into buying conversions, and even doing their own, the drop in equipment suppliers and sources for parts is another sign of decline in total numbers. All of this makes the conversions that remain more precious. Unfortunately, that does not mean they are more valuable, and the death knell for manual transmissions has been rung. 

Here in Az where we live we see a lot of bus conversion lol like I saw 3 in our yard this morning

 Clifford told you to lock that gate!...;D

State of the hobby. Somebody is either not talking or wishing to be a busnut or thinking about being one. Look at the stat's on page one at the bottom. Today there were 91 Guests and 6 members. Last night 123 guest and 15 members? So when we are on the road in our Buses having a good time do these people fly above us watching and hoping to be there one day also, Just wondering.....Come on in guys we don't bite and make this hobby even better..... ::) :o ;D
Dave5Cs

Dave, did you stop biting people? tom...

Quote from: Dave5Cs on October 04, 2016, 03:04:43 PM
Clifford told you to lock that gate!...;D

Now dat bees funny!

Quote from: Oonrahnjay on October 03, 2016, 10:28:20 AM
      Very true, of course. It applies to airplanes, sports cars, boats and just about everything else that it's stupid to own unless you really want it.

Quote from: gumpy on October 04, 2016, 09:55:27 AM
I think you are oversimplifying it. People's lives change over time. Their ability to afford things fluctuates and sometimes priorities have to take precedence over luxuries.

In my case, my belief was that if I couldn't afford to use it I should not have built it. I believed that right up until I couldn't justify the cost of $4 a gallon diesel for it. Then my bus sat for a couple years and then I got another job and diesel prices came down and now we can afford to use it again and yes, I'm fixing things on it that are reaching their life span.

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Good question, unfortunately, I do not have the answer.  It could be disposable income as some have suggested, it is not cheap to run a bus.  If you are trying to do this, well, good luck. As I understand it, the new generation is not into cars and transportation and cities with good municipal transport systems, rank high on their list of where to live.

My last hobby became too expensive for me, so I gave it up.  That hobby paled in comparison to owning/maintaining a bus.  How it is that we move in and out of hobbies during our lifetime.  Earlier in life, I started out with motorcycles, and then moved to pickup's and hot rods, then briefly into Vans during the seventies. Model Railroading took up a great deal of my time and resources for over thirty years, photography, computers, desktop publishing and eventually, full circle, to the bus.

Now as I slowly slide into my seventies, I am looking at the end of the road on the bus.  Having about 95% of it completed and in place, I see the end of the line as far as the bus is concerned.  With the economy in the tank, I would have sold it a long time back, but that no longer is a valid option. 

As I age,  I am starting to experience the familiar pangs of anxiety and I find myself wondering ... "What will it be after this?" ... the old "What's Next?" issue is rearing its ugly head.  So I suppose that is the burning question for me this day, "When you do get to the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel and it is not a train" ... Then what? 

Having no clue as to whether it is a hobby or a lifestyle as some have suggested, I will leave it with you to hash out among each other.

Some really interesting responses to this thread, good reading.

BoxCarOkie

The Real Deal ... Accept no substitutes.

LOL I have never called it a hobby owning a bus is work anyway you slice the pie 

Calling it a hobby is the only way to justify spending more money than you would have spent on an already converted or store bought RV.

I think it will be coming back big time. Maybe not coach conversions to begin with, but schoolies. Look at the new "Tiny Home" movement. How long will it take this to move from, basically, home made trailers, to buses? Not very long I think. Then the schoolie people will discover coaches. Give it five years. Want it to happen sooner? Get on the TV program with a project. Take conversions to these Home Shows that are showing the Tiny Houses. It's just that people don't really know we exist.

Cary

In our club, the SE Bus Nuts, there seems to be a drop off in newer, younger members. In chewing this over around the campfire several reasons have been put forth, which all probably have a kernel of truth:
     Our club is comprised of a few late WWII generation folks and lots of Baby Boomers. Not to overgeneralize, but these groups generally like challenges, like restoring and renovating, they value sturdy and dependable goods made the "old-fashioned" way, and they believe that hard physical work has its rewards. The younger generation, Gen X, doesn't share all of these traits, and often would rather buy something new vs. fixing up something older, driven partly by concern for how their time is spent, and generally avoiding the get-your-hands-dirty hobbies. Certainly not all, but many. If you think that's depressing, check out the Millennials, who've had mom and dad do all their heavy lifting, etc.
     When I joined the SE Bus Nuts 17 years ago it was common for new folks to not even have their 1st bus yet, but wanted to network and learn about the hobby. Then a bus purchase and even more questions. The club was an invaluable resource for a hands-on hobby. We get fewer new members these days, and they have usually bought someone else's conversion. Of course we love 'em all.
     A couple of our bus nut members are also in antique and classic car clubs. Most our their members have done at least one restoration themselves. They say their members are older and the hobby is dying out. Today's young people, they say, don't seem to like turning wrenches, valuing older things, etc.
    I just drove our bus 1200 miles from New Hampshire to Georgia. Saw fewer conversions on the road than years past, and a couple of them were newer Prevosts. Anecdotal, I know. But as far as our hobby is concerned, depressing.
     Just my two-cents worth...
Mike in GA

There's some truth to the above statement. Hipsters and younger gens are really really lazyish. I'm 34 so I include even some of my gen. How can I skate through life with as little effort as possible is basically the general trend. I was taught old school which is why I've now converted two coaches and fulltimed in both. Hard work is something I enjoy. I do fear for the next and next generations. Who is going to do the dirty work?


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Well put, I agree. But at my age most of the hard work is behind me (I wish?)

I would agree with most here (Mike has a good grasp of it all for sure), raising two boys, and now full grown, they have no interest in cars, hot rods, motorized transportation of any sort.  Scott I would say you are the exception to the rule, not the norm.  I have met very few (at your age) with your talents, drive and ambition, when it comes to buses.

Mine. 

They just want to know what it is worth?

Which is kind of like "Free Advice" ....  Not much.

BCO

As a fairly young person, who has been there done that, I can offer my thoughts.

Personally, I would never own a bus, unless I was travelling full time. I did almost all the maintenance and upkeep on ours, and I am so glad to be done with it. I enjoy hard work, IF there is a purpose and reason. Buses are (can be) expensive and take a lot of time. My time is so full, that I cannot afford to spend time working on a bus.

I do agree. A lot of people in my generation are lazy. The rest of us are just trying to maximize our time. I will end up getting a travel trailer to pull behind my truck. It is a lot of fun to help other people, who break down in the area, or need help for some reason. However, I will not purchase a bus just for weekend trips.

Cheers!

John

LOL young people today use their brain not their brawn it did surprise me how many younger people have abandoned the so called American dream (owning a home) and have moved into buses.They don't travel in the buses it is home for them and family.I guess I forget John helping me  ;),and you did do a good job John on the DL   

The 30 somethings just don't have the time to do a conversion. The average work week is 48 hours, then there is all those kid activities, soccer, baseball, dance lessons, etc., home chores, wife chores, church, the list goes on and on. They barely have time to sleep.

Cary

They need all of the time they can get to play POKEMON GO.

It doesn't have to be just buses but anything. If you have an interest in something, why would you even care if other people do or not? Just do your own thing and if the other people don't like it or lose interest, that's their problem.

John that's Just called Nervous energy ;D Fill your day Say W H A T!........
::) :o ;D

Quote from: John316 on October 06, 2016, 05:49:39 AM
I will end up getting a travel trailer to pull behind my truck. It is a lot of fun to help other people, who break down in the area, or need help for some reason. However, I will not purchase a bus just for weekend trips.

Cheers!

John

John, you are right, these monsters consume a lot of time, and of course, resources.  But it is by choice we do these things, and you seem to have realized your goals and time restraints, what it is that is important for you, it is a wise man who can do this.  

We are only allotted so much in life (time) and it is wise not to fritter it away on what some consider non productive endeavors.  Time is like smoke thru a keyhole, it goes away very fast and the first thing you know, it is over.

But I would say after having gone down the trailer route for several years, I feel safer in a motor-home/bus configuration.  Not being a big fan of campgrounds and plugging into a pole, I spend a lot of time in various locations. In the bus, if someone decides to mess with me, wherever I happen to be, I can just walk up, sit down, start it and drive off.  

You cannot do that with a trailer, you have to exit the trailer, and go to the truck.  This (in my opinion) can be a dangerous thing, I never felt comfortable with that aspect of it all.

BCO

Quote from: Jon on October 05, 2016, 08:00:47 AM
Calling it a hobby is the only way to justify spending more money than you would have spent on an already converted or store bought RV.

Aw, it's only money Jon, and like my wife is fond of saying, "It keeps him outta the Honky Tonks."  (as if I am going to actually get involved or hurt someone?)

BCO

I bought mine in 2002 and started disassembling, restoring and building  There are times that money prevents me from going forward and other times I'm just tired. Since I have been doing this project I've seen all kinds of variables from fuel going up/down, economy going up/down/up/down/down and the buses values drop and not come back up. The cost of materials and supplies has skyrocketed so trying to take on something like this doesn't make sense.
  I have friends that have gone and purchased American Eagles with slides and even though they're not built like a bus they are pretty nice. The banks give loans easily on them and insurance companies insure them without issue yet the payments are what I spend in supplies every month  When I buy abrasives alone I can't believe the cost $10 for a disc for my 12" disc sander, $8 for a 4.5" flap disc. Hardware, rags, paint, glues, steel, etc.
I work on mine at night and some weekends which is why I'm 14 years into it. My friends have been useing theirs all along. I can't say I would do this knowing what I know now but I'm way past the point of no return. I love the way it has turned out and can't wait to hit the road with it (hopefully this december) but I will never do another one.

When I was a little 'un I had my Meccano set (the all-metal constructor set beloved by so many) and Lego, lots of it.   It was absolutely normal for me to invent and make things from Meccano and Lego, learning why some things didn't work and why certain rules had to be followed.   I even made a simple 4WD truck from Meccano with a self-changing 2-speed gearbox when I was twelve years old or so.   I never paid any attention to the 'suggested" designs, but always preferred to make my own creations.   My Lego was used not to make boring little houses, but to make real boy stuff like model planes, and not just any old planes but reasonably accurate models of Tupolev 95 Bears and Huey choppers and suchlike, quite a challenge when devising a way to prevent wings from drooping or falling off altogether!   In other words, inventing and making things has always been part of my life.   In adulthood I got into bicycles, even doing simple frame-building and making parts from scratch if I couldn't buy what I wanted, but unfortunately I no longer have the opportunity to mess about with bikes much more.   This is one of several reasons that I now have a bus.   It's essentially just a big Meccano set  - everything's bolted together, at least everything I would want to mess with, so I can still reinvent and reconstruct things to my heart's content, this time getting extra greasy in the process.

I sometimes think that I'm maybe of the last generation, or one of the last generations, to actually make stuff by hand *.   So many young folk these days are only interested in merely using things, whether they be cellphones or whatever the latest electronic fad is  - actually making something from scratch is completely beyond most of them.   An entire generation of 'users' is growing up not knowing how to work with simple hand tools, let alone anything more complex.   I was shocked to see what Lego has become these days  - it is now only a set of standard parts to make one single item according to the provided instructions, and there's little if any opportunity to exercise one's imagination or experiment with different designs like in days of old.   So many other toys are similar:  they simply don't promote or encourage out-the-box thinking and rational problem-solving, but require one to slavishly follow instructions to arrive at a pre-determined result.   How dull and uninvolving is that?   What a scary portent for the future.

Bus conversion, at least not the open-checkbook approach used by some, is still a very hands-on activity.   You will get greasy and filthy, you will get banged up and scratched and cut and physically exhausted at times, you will have moments of absolute frustration and anger when things don't work out as you want, you will doubt your own sanity when struggling to do something that a ready-made RV would not need at all, and it never ever will be cost-effective or a reasonable use of one's time (I've spent literally thousands of hours so far on my bus).   But all this makes it worthwhile, at least for me.   I don't want some marketing expert's idea of what will work for me:  I want to make it myself.   If it doesn't look as swish and glitzy as some fancy RV, so be it, but at least it will truly reflect who I am and what I think is important.   I'm converting my bus only for me and for my satisfaction.   Obviously there is only a very small proportion of the RV/bus community that wants to be hands-own to our extent, but I fear that this proportion will shrink in years to come as the just-push-a-button-but-don't-care-how-it-works generation gets into RVing and expects everything to be ready-made for them.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that maybe we are the last of the DIY generation of bus tinkerers, maybe?   There will always be some future folk who'll also get into what we like doing, but they may become a dying breed as the button-pushers take over.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

John

* Bruce Gordon, a refreshingly individualist and ascerbic bicycle frame-builder in Petaluma CA, used to award a toilet seat every year to others in the industry who merely put their names on products made elsewhere.   He called his group of cohorts SOPWAMTOS  -  the Society Of People Who Actually Make Their Own $hit.   Maybe we are the SOPWAMTOS of the bus and RV world?    

We are members of the Midwest Bus Nuts and went to the FMCA MAC rally in Amana,IA in July 2016. Three from our club went. Two of us with buses and one with a motor home. Out of over 250 coaches there we had the only buses there.

John, you're not alone.

QuoteI sometimes think that I'm maybe of the last generation, or one of the last generations, to actually make stuff by hand *.   So many young folk these days are only interested in merely using things, whether they be cellphones or whatever the latest electronic fad is  - actually making something from scratch is completely beyond most of them.   An entire generation of 'users' is growing up not knowing how to work with simple hand tools, let alone anything more complex.   I was shocked to see what Lego has become these days  - it is now only a set of standard parts to make one single item according to the provided instructions, and there's little if any opportunity to exercise one's imagination or experiment with different designs like in days of old.   So many other toys are similar:  they simply don't promote or encourage out-the-box thinking and rational problem-solving, but require one to slavishly follow instructions to arrive at a pre-determined result.   How dull and uninvolving is that?   What a scary portent for the future.

I've often thought the same thing. I belong to some other forums and the lack of knowledge about how things work amazes me. Many don't even know how to ask the right questions. Maybe it's from growing up on the edge of a very small midwestern town away from the city. My father was the kind of guy that pretty much made the things he needed.

QuoteBus conversion, at least not the open-checkbook approach used by some, is still a very hands-on activity.   You will get greasy and filthy, you will get banged up and scratched and cut and physically exhausted at times, you will have moments of absolute frustration and anger when things don't work out as you want, you will doubt your own sanity when struggling to do something that a ready-made RV would not need at all, and it will never ever be cost-effective or a reasonable use of one's time (I've spent literally thousands of hours so far on my bus).   But all this makes it worthwhile, at least for me.   I don't want some marketing expert's idea of what will work for me:  I want to make it myself.   If it doesn't look as swish and glitzy as some fancy RV, so be it, but at least it will truly reflect who I am and what I think is important.   I'm converting my bus only for me and for my satisfaction.   Obviously there is only a very small proportion of the RV/bus community that wants to be hands-own to our extent, but I fear that this proportion will shrink in years to come as the just-push-a-button-but-don't-care-how-it-works generation gets into RVing and expects everything to be ready-made for them.

This pretty well sums up the way I feel. Really makes you feel good when giving a "tour" and someone says. "Wow, look at that" or "How did you do that". It really is nice to be able to say "I did it all myself" My bus is far from the conventional "RV" way of doing things.

I too like gadgets but, usually they are out of reach financially to me, so I find ways of doing it myself. All of my interior light switches are remote control. I build all of my own led light fixtures. Last fall my son sent me a link to a blue tooth remote control that he wanted to use as a basis for his door lock on his bus. It was just the control, it was in China, needed a power supply and programming. I built the whole thing with power supply, and programming for 1/3 of what the original unit. While I was at it I built one for myself.

Dick

Not all younger people are just "users". One of my sons, a mechanical and aerospace engineering student, is strictly academic. He is happy spending the whole day at a desk designing stuff and doing calculations, and reading books and studying. In spite of me trying all his growing years, I don't think he knows what a screwdriver or wrench looks like. He is not interested.

My other son, also an engineer (petroleum), always has been a hands on, mechanically minded doer. He would rebuild his dirt bike engine at 12 years old. Now in his mid 20s, he prefers a used car or truck for the pleasure of fixing it. There is no time in his life now for a bus, but he would enjoy one like we do.

Recently, we had a visit for a couple of days from a nephew and his 2 friends in their mid 20s. The are on an extended mountain climbing trip through Canada and the US. They bought an old Dodge camper van. They are very much into fixing it, maintaining it, and improving it themselves. We spent a day building an extra bunk in it, and fixing some house battery charging issues.

I see quite a few mechanical type kids, especially in the rural areas.

JC

The average age in this country for skilled trade
is over 55 years old!

Dave Rasor

hi All, just like JC, my two sons, both had my fixing stuff throughout their lifes. both took shop in school, both inherited my Jeep that I bought new, one likes to fix stuff and one would rather pay someone to fix it, interestingly enough same thing with my older brother and my self, and my best friend and I, when we were young, fixed girlfriends cars together, now doesn't want to fix his cars at all, and only wants new cars, lvmci...

My son, who's 34 and career USAF, has been buying, fixing and selling 3-Series BMWs ever since he was 16 years old and bought his first one with cash earned from delivering newspapers.

While stationed in Germany, he earned an extra $15K - $20K per year scrounging thru German auto boneyards during his off time to pull and sell European-spec BMW parts to members of the USA's BMW Owner's Group.  (While also squeezing in over 325 laps of the Nurburgring!)

I'm pretty proud of his mechanical skills (and his parenting skills with his two boys, for that matter), but am amused by his comments about how he has to work with these 18-22 year olds who have a spoiled sense of entitlement and virtually no work ethic. 

Seems I used to hear the same thing from my dad XX-years ago when I was a teen-ager!

As for our busnut hobby, I think some of the things that's affecting what's happening is both the aging demographics and the electronic complexity of the newer equipment.  The KISS days of the 4104s are long gone compared to the multiplexed MCI/Prevosts of today.

FWIW & HTH. . .

;)

Times have changed,back in 70's,80's and up till 2000 you could convert a bus and make money when you sold.
Then in 2000 all the older factory conversions started hitting the market prices started to drop on the home conversions then 2006 it was over for us self converters you could hardly sell one for what you paid for shell.
If I was younger I would go a different route, they all want a toy hauler now LOL even ACE has gone that route,some of the new RV's are nice and built a little better from the years past