First, a little background.
I have had a starting problem on my 4106(12V).Bus would start fine when cold but not after warming up.
So I took starter out and had it rebuilt. Rebuilder found some problems and fixed it.
So I put the starter back in and when I turn on the ignition I get nothing. Normally there is a sound of a solenoid in the engine compartment engaging. Also no power anywhere else on the bus.
BUT, if I manually engage the starter by pressing the contacts in the starter relay the starter will engage.
Other than removing and replacing the starter I haven't changed anything.
ALSO, when I put a test light on the negative terminal on the starter and touch the engine block with the test light there is a dim light which indicates to me there is power there .
Any ideas?
Thanks Fred
You should have no amprage between the two, the neg. terminal should be bonded to the block.>>>Dan
Nothing wrong with the starter if it engages just be sure you have the ground wire ( one of small terminals) the one close to the block from the solenoid connected to ground terminal on the end of starter not to + side
"ou should have no amprage between the two, the neg. terminal should be bonded to the block.>>>Dan"
Is it not bonded through the starter frame?
It should be connected to the block and from that same point back to the battery bank negative. This isnt your fathers buick >>>Dan
Clifford, I just want to confirm what you said about the ground wire (the one closest to the block) is connected to the negative (terminal on starter) cable. In fact it appears that wire is reversed with the other one. So the wire that comes from the realy(I presume) is closest to the block. I don't want to start willy nilly swapping wires and damage the starter. It is such a bi*ch to remove/replace.
Thanks
Freed.
Pictures would be very helpful.
The 3 connections on the positive lug are the cable to the alternator, the positive cable to the batteries, and the connection to the bus electrical system.
The small terminals on the starter solinoid are marked..( "S" is for switch(the relay) The "connections to the bus electrical system" should get power from the alternator stud...(at the alternator)The ground wire from the solinoid sould go to the large ground stud coming out of the end of the starter, and from that same stud to the ground point on the block & back to the bank..>>>Dan
Hard to tell from the photo, do you have a cable going from the back terminal on the starter to the engine block ?
Just went out and checked and the wires on the solenoid were on correct.
And no, I do not have a cable going from the back of the starter to the block.There never has been one there in the 25 years I have owned the bus. Could that be the problem? It does seem odd though that it was never a problem before. Is it possible the rebuilder changed something when he rebuilt it? Its easy enough to try though.
Fred.
Quote from: Fred Mc on September 27, 2016, 08:01:02 PM
Just went out and checked and the wires on the solenoid were on correct.
And no, I do not have a cable going from the back of the starter to the block.There never has been one there in the 25 years I have owned the bus. Could that be the problem? It does seem odd though that it was never a problem before. Is it possible the re-builder changed something when he rebuilt it? Its easy enough to try though.
Fred.
there isn't much to change..and still reassemble it.
Turns out that the problem was no negative cable between the starter and the block which a couple of you pointed out..This is REALLY puzzling.
A few years ago I moved the batteries to the old a/c compartment and ran the battery cables directly to the starter and everything worked fine EXCEPT it didn't want to turn over when the engine was warm. And THERE WAS NO CABLE BETWEEN THE NEGATIVE POST ON THE STARTER AND THE ENGINE BLOCK. I know I'm getting old and stupid (according to my wife) but NOT that stupid.
At any rate finally took the starter off and had it rebuilt. Last night I was on the Delco Remy website reading about these starters and noticed there is a model that the case is grounded and one where it is isolated. I'm going to talk to the rebuilder to see if MAYBE he changed the case. That is the ONLY thing I can think of.
Anyway it starts and runs and I will test it now to see if it will restart when warmed up.
Thanks for everyones help.
Fred,
Good for you,I usually hook the negative from the battery to the starter end and then use a cable to the chassis for a ground on GMs, grounds are always a problem on 1 it seems.They usually don't use a case ground with a aluminum bellhousing fwiw
Well, looks like I spoke too soon. After having the starter rebuilt I'm still faced with the same problem-that is when the motor warms up it won't start. Starter engages but can't turn engine over. Only one thing left to try before selling it I guess. Im going to replace both cables from batteries to starter. I have 3 brand new 850cca batteries and even with the 2 from my truck hooked up(total of 5 x850cca) still the same problem.
Fred,check the amp draw at the starter Uni-T makes a nice affordable clamp on meter for AC/DC sales for around $40.00.
Check the amp draw cold it should be around 500 amps cold ,then check it hot if the meter shoots off the scale you possibly could have a problem try that first.Making 4/0 cables is a expensive way to do a test
Fred,,as I indicated, run a line from the point that you attached starter ground to the block directly to the battery bank ground..
Without this ground run you are depending on the ground straps from the engine to the chassis, and they don't do a good job.>>>Dan (Many have been removed over the years)
Thanks Dan. I now have a cable from starter negative to the block and to the battery. Im still really confused as to how it all worked previously without a ground from starter to block.
.
Fred, did you solve the HOT start problem??>>>D
Still haven't solved it. I put on a second set of cables last night.So I now have 2 positive and 2 negative cables that go directly from the batteries to the starter.I also have a ground strap from the starter to the block. The batteries (3 900 cca) are new and the starter just rebuilt. When cold the motor spins really fast and starts quickly.When hot its like the lights were left on overnight and the battery is low. Starter will engage but thats about it.
We used a 6-71 to power our sawmill and one day it would not start hot. Same thing cables, batteries, starters. Finally found gasoline in the diesel; tanker had used a gasoline compartment for diesel and still had some gasoline in the compartment. Finally got it back on straight diesel and the hot start problem went away.
1970 GM T8H5306A, eight-cylinder fishbowl transit with VS2-8. Same issue. Started cold but does not appear have enough juice going to starter to restart a hot engine. Not uncommon with this set-up. I lived with it until bus was sold several years ago.
- Seaton
Thanks Charles.
That doesn't sound encouraging.
Had a reply from Delco Remy and they suggested that it may be a hydro lock from fuel or coolant in cylinder but i dont think either would flow in that fast after shutdown.( I turn it off and immediately try and restart)
Haven't been able to find a clamp on DC gauge to measure starter draw.
A 4106 usually don't give problems starting hot ? is that the same starter that has been on the bus for years.
Do this get the engine hot and try the starter if it won't turn over take a 1-1/2 in socket and using the nut on the cam pulley if you can rotate the engine with the socket and breaker bar you have a electrical problem,if you cannot rotate the engine you have a mechanical problem it is that simple.I bet a cold one if you hook 2 -8D batteries like the factory up to the starting system it will fire hot or cold
i wonder...
like Clifford, not enough battery.
Because, cold is lower compression...it starts.
Hot everything is expanded..compression greater.
and battery is then "inadequate" ???
Ya, the battery thing has crossed my mind a few times. Changed from the 8d's to 3 950cca batteries a number of years ago and it working fine at first but then started having trouble. I just hate to spend $500 on 8ds and find it didn't make any difference. And once you buy then you can't take them back.LOL. And they don't fit in anything else I have. Maybe I can rent them. Ha.
Thanks
Fred
I was going to change from two 8Ds to two group 31s and Luke at US Coach advised against that. That change was being considered by me when I was having starter problems. It ended up being the starter... I am now running two 8Ds (as we always have) with a different starter.
do like Clifford said...bar it over hot..
no turn/go ? ???
it aint the starter/batts >:(