BCM Community

Hello all,

Some of you may remember some of the issues we've been having with our bus (heat issues, low compression when cold, etc). Anyway, we've spent about 3 months here in CO and things had actually been going pretty well. I installed 2 additional 10" fans on the radiator to control the heat. I cleaned the radiator really well to knock off any crud that may be accumulated there. Got the mister system functional again. And I've been taking it slowly up steep grades.
All of that seemed to be doing really well to keep the temps well within tolerable limits (sub 195).

Well all of that went to pot today. :(
We were climbing a rather steep hill. She'd been running just fine (~20mph) and the temps and pressure were all good (~190).
Half way up the next steep hill we noticed a small trail of white smoke :O
Immediately looking for a spot to pull over, I kept going forward (we're on a narrow mountain pass, so options were very limited).
Well the small trail grew larger and larger by the second; till it was a full plume of thick white smoke.
At that point I lost power and she wasn't moving another inch!

After messing with our electric compressor to get the air back up, we managed to wiggle her off of the road (thank God for that thing!!!), and at least we're not in the middle of the highway any more.
When I went back there to check what was going on, there was a good amount of oil coming from one exhaust manifold, a good amount of oil dripping on the ground, and there was what appeared to be coolant (and oil) coming out of the blow-by tank reservoir thing. And there was that distinctive smell of toasted motor oil!!
Attempting to restart it (just once) it kinda sorta starts, but runs really really rough, so I quickly killed it.

So that's where we're at. There's no doubt that something quite catastrophic has happened to the engine...
So HELP!!! Please...

At this point I'm looking at having it towed somewhere to have a look. I don't really know what my options are at this point, but I'm likely looking at an engine replacement, rebuild, reman???? Any advice you can provide here would greatly appreciated.
Any idea where I'd get an engine?
Should I try to salvage this one? (Although, it probably highly depends on what happened)
Is there a better option?

I am also now looking for a shop that can work on this bus.

I feel my options will be quite limited here but any info is greatly appreciated.

We are currently in CO. We are on highway 550 just north of Silverton (so called "Million Dollar Highway").
We are on the southbound lane side.


Thanks all, in advance.

It seems to me I remember a conversation I had with someone that there is a company in Durango that does bus repowers.  I don't have a name so no help there from me but maybe someone on the board can help with a name.

They would be kind of in your neighborhood.

HTH

Melbo

Sorry to hear of your trouble. I pray you are not on the cliff side. That is some road. I wish you well .Tom

I think Farmington NM is going to be your best bet... Stewart and Stevenson.

George I agree with Eagle if you have towing services especially Coach net they will put it on a landall and take it there. I do believe there is or was a place in Durango when we lived in Colorado but that was years ago and can't say if they are still there. Many truck places in Colorado though because everything goes through there one way or the other to get to all destinations. Pretty road where you are at but only Durago and silverton semi close to you and Ouray but there will be nothing there to fix you up.
Dave

Bobs Truck & Bus Repair
Be the first to review!

20909 Highway 160,

Durango, CO 81301

(970) 247-4456

Vandergrift did have a shop in that area,it and Bobs were the only 2 I know of ,I did not care for Bobs he charged me 800 bucks for a 100 buck pickup fuel pump on the Trek

George any updates?...
Dave

Bummer. Sounds like it was toast before and just now actually failed you. Let us know what plans you are formulating.


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Many times a major overheat episode on a DD two cycle doesn't show the damage till a couple of thousand miles later, other than some lesser symptoms, like increased smoke when cold, or increased oil leakage. Especially to the inexperienced.

Hey guys,

Thanks for the well wishes and good info.
Here's the latest,

I just never got a good feeling for the shops around the immediate area. Bob's was the only one to even mention working on heavy diesels, and Google showed the shop as "permanently closed", yet someone (a phone service) still answers their number.
Eventually got to talking to Dow at S & S in NM. Got a good feeling that he actually knew what he was talking about and that he had mechanics on staff that could work on a DD 2 stroke.
So we got a tow to the shop in Farmington.

Had a good conversation with them this morning and gave them a rundown on what happened. His DD guy came out to take a look.
Checked the oil and coolant and then we tried to start it.
It was a bit rough (not really worse than usual), but it did start and ran.
It was running, mostly fine, with no smoke or rough idling.
Then after a minute or so, we started to see oil driping out of the exhaust pipe.
So we immediately killed it when we saw that.
There was also a weird... faint metallic (clanking? ringing? rapping?) sound that we could hear from the exhaust pipe while running.

They won't be able to get to us for several days but he had some thoughts on what it could be.
1) possibly the blower on the turbo is somehow getting wet and pushing oil
2) a cracked crown on a head (not sure what that is)
3) a cracked cylinder liner
4) cracked head
5) bad injector (possible cause for the excess white smoke). Although after the start attempt, he started to suspect the white smoke was coolant not unspent fuel.
6) A bad intecooler (not sure what/where that is either), under the engine

But he's got several other projects he has to knock out first before he gets to us.
His plan is to start with the turbo and work down to the cylinders to diagnose the issues.

I'll update you guys as we get more info and to get feedback; as I'm sure I'm going to have some serious decisions to make here in the coming week or two.

Thanks again all,
George

George, get everything in writing S&S is not the same Co it was years back.I sent a bus nut there a couple years ago and they told him $16,000( 6v71) for a out of frame when he went to pick it up they wanted $35,000 but agreed on $25,000 so watch them,and they do have good 2 stroke guys for all the oil field engines in that area

good luck 

Ok, here's is the latest.

Did some really preliminary diags into the situation. These were things the shop figured I could do on my own, before they'd have to roll us into a bay.

1) took the air intake off of the turbo. The mechanic was able to look at the turbo and he no longer thinks there's a turbo problem. He thought it felt good, rotated freely, wasn't wet, and appeared in good condition.

2) took the valve cover off of the lower bank. He suspected that if there was coolant or frothy oil in there, that'd give us a hint. It was completely clean and just had typical trace amounts of clean oil on the parts.

3) pulled a sample of oil out of the oil pan into a styrofoam coffee cup. Coolant did come out. I'd say about 1-2 oz of greenish slop came out before just regular oil came out.

4) an interesting thing worth noting was before we attempted to do a restart yesterday, I checked the oil level. At that time it was slightly above the L mark. After the restart attempt, and subsequent oil leaking from the exchaust, the oil now barely registers on the stick at all.
I figure there's about 1 gallon from F to L mark, and perhaps another 1/2 gallon from L to the bottom of the stick. It didn't look like we spewed 1/2 a gallon of oil out the tail pipe, so I'm not sure where that oil went???

5) The coolant surge tank is completely empty. So I'm not sure how much coolant is actually still in the engine at this point. (I'd mentioned thinking that I checked both oil and coolant yesterday before starting, but I had actually only checked the oil and just thought about checking the coolant).

Anyway, that's all he feels comfortable having me do, outside of a bay.
The next thing he wants to check is the blower assembly. Taking that off will be a PITA and he didn't want to do that outside where blowing dust could easily get in.
He suspects an intercooler (if installed) in the blower assembly as a possible culprit for the oil and coolant mixing. He wasn't certain though if that engine actually has an intercooler and needs to take the blower apart to look.
Any advice or help there would be appreciated. Would this engine necessarily have an intercooler in the blower??

So that's all we've got so far. He's till busy working his other projects, and occasionally squeezing some of this in between. 

If there's anything additional you all can think of that I can poke at my self (with relatively simple tools), I can go back out there and do some more checking.

Thanks again,
George

George, you can tell if your engine is aftercooled by just looking,if you see a 1-1/4 pipe coming from under the blower (governor) from the block going to the T stat housing it will have a after cooler he should know that,if you only have the one crossover pipe tying the 2 heads together then there is no after cooler    

Here's some pictures to check out

https://www.google.com/search?q=picture+of+8v-71+with+aftercooler+installed&client=tablet-android-verizon&prmd=sivn&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=mjA5tRm-w454tM%253A%252CWmh6p19VPTRDrM%252C_%253B6veJB2eMDGEJHM%253A%252CJaGm7MQLyZ-P2M%252C_%253B3i7sJUuCGWFh6M%253A%252C8_fjYmVhfPoIDM%252C_%253BagjqFy_XTxPh2M%253A%252CWmh6p19VPTRDrM%252C_%253BoW6vaS1e76bN_M%253A%252CWmh6p19VPTRDrM%252C_%253B5zm4mkCgivWU9M%253A%252C-BpZjhLCen7IKM%252C_%253BTCR20LbZFCOZDM%253A%252CWmh6p19VPTRDrM%252C_&usg=__6okSWNSRE8ac8z5j2hurM9H3AeU%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS8qyXn-_OAhXI6x4KHaYoAzEQ7AkILQ&biw=962&bih=601 (https://www.google.com/search?q=picture+of+8v-71+with+aftercooler+installed&client=tablet-android-verizon&prmd=sivn&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=mjA5tRm-w454tM%253A%252CWmh6p19VPTRDrM%252C_%253B6veJB2eMDGEJHM%253A%252CJaGm7MQLyZ-P2M%252C_%253B3i7sJUuCGWFh6M%253A%252C8_fjYmVhfPoIDM%252C_%253BagjqFy_XTxPh2M%253A%252CWmh6p19VPTRDrM%252C_%253BoW6vaS1e76bN_M%253A%252CWmh6p19VPTRDrM%252C_%253B5zm4mkCgivWU9M%253A%252C-BpZjhLCen7IKM%252C_%253BTCR20LbZFCOZDM%253A%252CWmh6p19VPTRDrM%252C_&usg=__6okSWNSRE8ac8z5j2hurM9H3AeU%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS8qyXn-_OAhXI6x4KHaYoAzEQ7AkILQ&biw=962&bih=601)

That engine is toast.  You are going to pay them only to find the heads are cracked, and when they drop the oil pan the crank will be scored.  Save time (and money) and have them (or you) check the crank first.

--Geoff

Quote from: luvrbus on September 01, 2016, 02:17:58 PM
George, you can tell if your engine is aftercooled by just looking,if you see a 1-1/4 pipe coming from under the blower (governor) from the block going to the T stat housing it will have a after cooler he should know that,if you only have the one crossover pipe tying the 2 heads together then there is no after cooler    

Thanks for the info Clifford. It's kind of hard to tell for sure, but I think it does have one.
I see one thick pipe running from one head to the other (originating from what I believe is the water pump and also where the temp sensor is installed. Midway between that pipe there is a teed-off pipe like you're describing (about 1" ish in dia) going down into the area where the blower would be. I don't see a "return" pipe/line anywhere (at least not one of equal size). Just the one pipe going toward the blower.

I'll try to snap a couple of pics and post them tonight or tomorrow.

There is no return pipe it returns from the after cooler directly to the block 

George, I'm kind of in the "how much do you pay them to tell you your engine is toast" instead of putting those $$$ towards a rebuild or replacement?


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Quote from: Scott Bennett on September 01, 2016, 08:31:39 PM
George, I'm kind of in the "how much do you pay them to tell you your engine is toast" instead of putting those $$$ towards a rebuild or replacement?


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Back in my day you payed nothing...you payed to have things fixed. smh.

Flat rate for an 8v was 48 hours...and diag was included in the tear down...

and that included steam and hot tank and pressure testing heads and block...SMH..

oh and cold tank the blower...

Lots of less cost to find a good used engine and don't worry about that one.  You know it has bad problems and a rebuild will be at least $15,000.  Good used engine should not be more than $2,500.
Jack

Quote from: blue_goose on September 02, 2016, 06:03:40 AM
Lots of less cost to find a good used engine and don't worry about that one.  You know it has bad problems and a rebuild will be at least $15,000.  Good used engine should not be more than $2,500.
Jack

Good left handed used engines are getting few and far between now, and George has a 8V71TA those are real hard to find 

I bet you popped a head. You already know the engine is worn out so it's probably time to bite the bullet and rebuild. Left turning 8v71t is going to be next to impossible to find. I wouldn't write off the crank until they check it, they are pretty tough, it just might surprise you. You might only need a head, aside from the normal rebuild parts.

For some reason the tilted 8v71 are hard on cranks,everyone I have seen, I have a good left handed crank if George needs it but it took .020 to clean it up which is not all that bad it is still in DD limits, the crank is 20/20 mains and rods journals 
 

Quote from: luvrbus on September 02, 2016, 07:59:42 AM
For some reason the tilted 8v71 are hard on cranks,everyone I have seen, I have a good left handed crank if George needs it but it took .020 to clean it up which is not all that bad it is still in DD limits, the crank is 20/20 mains and rods journals 
 

Interesting, i did not know this. you learn something every day.

I think it is because of all the parts needed to turn the fan on the front of those engines Derrick.lol I know I hate working on 1,you need knee pads for the lower part and ladder for the top but I do like my GM friends anyway even if they do walk sideways 

Sideways and backwards lol.

I think some of you are confused. Look at the bottom of Geom's posts, it says he has a 6V92 turbo.

Good luck, Sam

Quote from: Sam 4106 on September 02, 2016, 05:56:30 PM
I think some of you are confused. Look at the bottom of Geom's posts, it says he has a 6V92 turbo.

Good luck, Sam

Good point that adds to the places where water can enter the engine, I feel for the guy anyway 

He has a 6V92 turbo.

We have reason to believe that it was a fresh rebuild old stock from a transit system when we purchased the bus. The oil in it was still clear and it acted like a new engine. I doubt it has 20K miles on it. Could be wrong, but it sure looked like that.

Cary

Quote from: Cary and Don on September 02, 2016, 08:51:41 PM
He has a 6V92 turbo.

Cary

He purchased yours and Don's bus right

Are 6V92 also left hands on GM'S?

Hey guys, quick update.

Not a whole lot new to report. The shop folks plan to roll us in Tuesday morning to start looking at things. Their plan right now is to check the aftercooler and see if it's the culprit. I seriously doubt it, and suspect they do as well; but I do think they're trying their best to mange my costs. Plus they'd have to remove the turbo regardless, if that engine was coming out. So pulling the blower is relatively straight-forward from there.

I completely agree that I don't want to throw good money after bad, and at some point there will have to be a stop loss moment where the bleeding of cash has to stop and the beginning of actual fixing starts. It's really difficult for me to guage that point right now. We really don't have enough information to act. So, for now, I'm willing to give these guys the professional deference to do the job and help me reach that point. But I can definitely see how the "desire to know what happened" can overwhelm common sense. So I'm hoping you guys will help me in deciding when that point is near. :)

For additional clarification,
We do indeed have a 6V92 Turbo.
It is indeed left turning.
We have never had a "heat event", and the hottest the engine has ever been is 200-205 during that one (previously posted) climb in Denver. (After which it cooled right off when we crested the hill). After that I'd been managing heat, by substantially reducing speed (often sub 25mph), and pulling over frequently on long climbs when the temps were getting to the uncomfortable side of 195. Then I installed those 2 radiator fans and that seemed to help a lot.

I do have a question, the front valve cover has a series of serial numbers on it:
Something about a "kit" serial number and an OEM serial number, along with the Turbo serial number. They were able to use the Turbo number to find the part we'd need (back when he suspected the turbo) and that helped them immensely.
Are the other serial numbers usable in the same way -to figure out what's in that engine, who did the rebuild, how it was done, the type/age of block, etc? That might help me decide if I would rather rebuild this engine or replace it. And if so, how would I get that info?

And as far as replacing it (if we do end up there), I'm trying to decide between a "good" old engine (and how to determine what/where that is) vs a rebuilt replacement. I realize opinions will vary wildly here, but I'm looking for your input and thoughts on that anyway; as I try to weigh those options. And at this point, I honestly have no idea where I'd get either option.
This shop only has those goofy right-handed 6v92s  ;) ;D

Anyway, that's all for now. More info coming soon.

I don't understand why they do not remove the inspection covers from the air box and pressurized the system to see where the water is coming come or even do a compression test.With it blowing smoke and running rough I say a head problem. 
Hopefully just a gasket set on the head or a injector tube,we won't get into the great antifreeze debate but the wrong antifreeze and not maintaining the system the o-rings just turn to mush and turn loose.
FWIW those tags tell everything about the engine when it was new like a built in parts book sorta 

If the shop thinks pulling the after cooler is the possible cause of all the engine problems I would have my bus towed out of there.  That mechanic is no two stroke Detroit mechanic.
Like I said, you need to drop the pan, check the crank, and if it's okay, pressure test the cooling system to begin to isolate how the antifreeze is getting in the oil pan. If you remove the after cooler now you won't be able to do a pressure test.

--Geoff

Gotta say I'm with Cliff and Geoff on this one. Don't let them tear into it without putting pressure on the cooling system and pulling the inspection covers.

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Quote from: Dave5Cs on September 02, 2016, 09:27:13 PM
Are 6V92 also left hands on GM'S?

I don't believe GM ever offered a 6V92 as a option for their intercity buses only in the transit models

Didn't somebody post at one time that there were parts that made a right hand engine left hand? If that was the case, couldn't the parts be switched out from the old engine to the new one?

Don and Cary

Cary and Don it's a lot trouble you need to pull the heads to change the cams the oil pump needs changing and then install the GM fan drive, then if the crank is not directional that has to be changed more trouble than it's worth IMO if needs rebuilding go with what you have 

I would replace/fix what is broken on your current engine, and carry on. Unless you find a replacement engine, new or used, and that is unlikely. It will cost money, but you have to expect to have to spend some money once in a while to keep any vehicle/machine running. Just hope it is not too much. Good luck.

JC

You'll be better off pulling and taking engine apart and going over everything. What if you patch it and it goes out two thousand miles down the road with the crank out or a busted piston or liner. You think it is going to cost now/ what about doing it twice? Just bite the bullet now or have it towed to a good two stroke mechanic.

Quote from: thomasinnv on September 03, 2016, 09:55:09 AM
Gotta say I'm with Cliff and Geoff on this one. Don't let them tear into it without putting pressure on the cooling system and pulling the inspection covers.

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I just finished today putting a Schrader valve onto my coolant surge tank for this exact reason, so I can easily pressure-test the entire cooling system in the future if I ever need to.   Didn't some 'Hound MCIs have this from the factory?

John

Latest George?


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Geom,

If you find out the engine is toast, please give me a call to discuss American Fleet building you a reman'd 6V92.  We build at least 2 or 3 a month.  We use genuine DD parts and we can have it built within 2 days of your order.

I sent you a private message as well.

Alright guys, here's the latest.

Finally got into the shop, sometime this afternoon.
I mentioned the whole pressurizing the cooling system thing. He was heading down that path, but it was clear that water was entering the engine. So before he did that, he wanted to pull the lower exhaust manifold (as there was oil seeping from it that was never there before). 
Upon pulling that, it was obvious what at least one big part of the problem was.
There was a pool of oil inside the manifold. It was also obvious that one of the lower bank cylinders was wet, as where the other two were simply the usually dry sooty black.

That gave the mechanic the info he needed to feel comfortable with pulling the valve cover off, and inspecting the valves and head; as he strongly suspected a cracked head (and possibly cylinder liner among other things).

After he disassembled the valves, it was clear to see what the problem was. We "dropped a valve".
He pulled out the split-in-two-push-rod stay/guide ring (please note that I'm paraphrasing here with the best grasp I have of what's going on). It's a little ring silver colored that surrounds the rod. That, he says likely froze the valve, which likely impacted the piston (and likely perforated it), along with cracking the head (he suspects).

He also noticed significant scarring on the rocker arm (?? the small T looking thing that moves the valves).
A more interesting fact was he noticed the EXACT same type of scarring on all three cylinder rockers. And get this, all of it was on the right hand set of valves. All three on the left side valves looked fine and smooth.
He said that it's possible that one might've been adjusted incorrectly and just eventually just failed.
But with three of them, all on the same side, that tells him someone who had no idea what they were doing adjusted the valves.
And he suspects that they adjusted them as if it was an intake valve instead of treating them all as exhaust.

It was nearing the end of the day, and he didn't want to tear into the actual head until he had a good window of time to finish looking at it.

At this point he suspects the failed parts are

Cracked head
Cracked crown
Cracked sleeve
Perforated piston
Damaged valve and lifter(s)

Parts needed:
Replacement head
Replacement "kit"
Misc gaskets and bits and pieces
Cost: $2200 + Labor
He (shop manager) couldn't estimate the labor as the mechanic had already left, but he will be pulling that info for me in the morning.

I tried to find out if this was likely happening on the top bank as well. He said that the valves are almost certainly horked on the top valve; if whatever moron did the work on the lower bank, also did the same on the upper bank.
The only likely exception is if that head was replaced somehow separately, after the initial rebuild, and it was adjusted incorrectly at that time.
He will be pulling the top-bank valve cover and inspecting that and adjusting correctly as necessary while trying to "repair" whatever valve damage might be up there. As you're likely well aware, that upper bank is a complete PITA to work on. So that'll be interesting.

In addition, there is really no practical way to fully inspect that upper bank because the inspection covers are fully masked by the exhaust manifold. Which would need to be removed. And even then, they may not be accessible.
He had some other ideas on pressure testing the system that he thought could give us a 20K foot view of that bank's health. But without getting to those inspection plates, he wouldn't be able to say with any certainty.

In addition, we emptied that airbox (blowby??) oil reservoir (at the bottom of the engine that we drain periodically) and it was chock full of coolant and very little oil.

So far the only things we've done have been to drain the coolant (what little of it was left. I think something like 4-6 gallons), and he took apart the valve assembly on the lower bank. He has not removed the head, turbo, blower or really anything (beyond removing the coolant pipe to the lower bank, to gain access to fuel lines, etc for removal).

I also mentioned the possible scoring on the crank (that others suggested should be looked at) and whether we should drop the pan. He said we'd eventually get to that, but he doubted the crank would be compromised, unless we ran it for a while with coolant in the system. It was 30 seconds to a minute from thin white trail, to plume, to dead engine.

So that's where we sit right now. The plan is tomorrow for him to finish removing that head. He will inspect the other two cylinders and see how they look. He says that if they look ok (no scorching scarring, etc), then he would feel relatively confident that the damage is just in what he found. If he gets in there and those cylinders also look horked, then he feels pretty confident that the upper bank is in a likely state.

I'm not sure I'm quite there yet, but it's looking more and more preferable that a replacement is the better option????
Even if I drop the $4-5K replacing these parts, considering the jacked up dumbassery he's found so far; I'm not sure if I wouldn't just be back in the same position again in a year or two, or even a week or two.

So I've gotten a quote for a replacement reman'ed engine.
I probably need to get a couple of more quotes (so any volunteers there??) to figure out where the price point actually is.
And I also need to get a quote for an out-of-frame there (but I suspect at their shop rate, that'll be wildly high). 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Considerations? Additional tests?
Please let me know.

Your input is greatly appreciated as always,
George

It happens all the time George some idiot will try to adjust the valves with the valve bridges and they drop a valve,sorry I don't have any 6v92 heads left but seems like they are headed in the right direction.
The  in frame is going to cost you around 12 grand and they are going to give you 90 days on labor and 1 year on parts I think you will be fine with a in frame IMO.I think a exchange is going to be a lot more in the end  

Quote from: luvrbus on September 06, 2016, 08:37:16 PM
It happens all the time George some idiot will try to adjust the valves with the valve bridges and they drop a valve,sorry I don't have any 6v92 heads left but seems like they are headed in the right direction.
The  in frame is going to cost you around 12 grand and they are going to give you 90 days on labor and 1 year on parts I think you will be fine with a in frame IMO.I think a exchange is going to be a lot more in the end  

I think a exchange is going to be a lot more in the end...
that may be...but ... if you want to keep the bus for 8-10 years...a rebuilt is what i would do vs. an in frame that comes with a with a 90 day guarantee...

Warranty on a re=man is not much better, 1 year and most suppliers won't pickup the towing fee,then some have to go back to the installer or supplier.Some engines are good candidates for a inframe some are not if his crank is good I would go for it

George, it is whatever makes you feel good. Your mechanic sounds like he is good and trustworthy. I would let him fix what is broken on your engine and go down the road. He is going to have to do a tune up anyway, so it will be set up properly. It is worth the time to drop the pan to look at the crank and the bearings, even though you only ran it for a short time with antifreeze in the oil. That will give you that piece of mind.

A reman'd or used engine requires a lot of shop time to swap, and I am guessing that would be a lot more money than fixing what you have now.

But hey, I am only a keyboard expert here... You will judge what is best to do... All the best!

JC

The pan needs to be removed anyway to install a liner kit then they can check or replace the main bearings if needed

Unless you throw a rod through the block, I think it is always best to overhaul your engine. Then you know what you have. Considering the 92 series has a suggested bearing replacement every 200,000 miles, bearings are easy to roll in. Personally-I'd go for head check, and full cylinder kits. Good Luck, TomC

I was just by Davids Coach here in NC.  He was putting a 8v92 together for a Eagle that had just broken a crank.

He was taking the jakes off the old one and putting them on the new one.

He has several 8v92turbo setting around his shop.

And if you talk" to Roxane" his wife with real money the price might be better.LOL

A great pair  they keep HUGGY running.

Him and Gene Russell are 2 of the best 2 stroke men left in the part of the country.

uncle ned

I have a right-handed 6V92 (out of an MCI) in my shop (in the way as a matter of fact)that might have a good head on it.
It was an American Fleet Re-man engine that had a little over the time limit on the warranty went the turbo let loose an caused internal engine damage.
I never pulled the heads or Blower to see just how much damage. But if it would help I could pull them and see if it LOOKS like the heads are OK!

Clifford will these heads work for him?
I'd be happy to ship them to him for the cost of shipping! (since it is a HUGE unknownif they are good or not!)

Well here's the latest,

Came in this morning to a bunch of frowning faces...
"The damage is worse than we thought", was the first thing I heard.

In any case, it's not really much worse than I was already expecting (by this point).

So here's what they found.

As expected, the valve managed to shoot itself into the piston. So cylinder 3 (right) is, as expected, toast.
The extra-special-suck part is that the other 2 cylinders don't exactly instill a whole lot of confidence in their long term health.
Cylinder 1 (left) showed pretty considerable (I'm not sure what the right term is) scorching? burning? whatever... it was black and sooty, and generally looked like crap; with the piston top showing some white spots on it.
Cylinder 2 looked the least sh**y, but it didn't look all that good either. According to the mechanic, it too would (eventually have) looked like cylinder 1; if it had been given enough time.
(I can post pics if anyone would find them valuable)

In short none of those 3 are worth keeping. And, as I'm sure is most likely, the top bank is also in the same situation.
So I think this brings an end to the "search" portion of the exercise.

Now I have to make a decision on the "answer" portion.....

This shop is not at all excited about rebuilding this engine. While the block is fine, and several of the other components look ok, I don't really blame them. Finding all the right parts would be challenging at best, and getting them here from... wherever would be a blast I'm sure. Plus I don't really want anything further to do with it either.
And at their shop rate, having them do the whole rebuild would bankrupt me.
An in-frame is really not an option either. At least not for this mechanic. He doesn't think there's anyway to actually effectively work on that upper bank; with it in frame.

So the engine has to come out regardless.

So my remaining options, as I see them now, are:

1) Pull the trigger on the reman'ed engine I got a quote for.
The shop is waffling (and not really unexpectedly) on just how long it'd take them to pull that engine. Let alone, putting the new engine in. And deal with all the fun-stuff of making that one fit in correctly.
So they would/could not give me a quote. They swagged that maybe a full day to pull it and 2 days to put it back; assuming everything went well. Which by now, we've learned... it won't!
Also, I honestly have no idea about this new engine, other than it's a DD authorized shop reman'ed left-turning 6v92.
I'm told it comes complete from turbo down. So in "theory" it should be turn-key. We all know that's highly unlikely.
So I need to call the guy, I guess, and figure out exactly what he'd be sending me.

2) Have the bus towed to another, more bus specific 2-stroke capable shop... wherever that may be.
It'll cost me a good chunk of cash just to tow it again (negating any possible savings in the shop rate).
And I still will have to deal with the above issues.
But at least a familiar shop won't get lost in the weeds finding their own... @$#'embly parts; if things get wonky.

3) Pack up all my sh** and go home and write all of it off as a really bad, and costly, nightmare.

Decisions, decisions......

That is really weird.  We never had the engine worked on. We thought about it when we first got it. As a newbee, we thought it sounded like a thrashing machine. We took it to a mechanic and he said it purred like a kitten. "Leave it alone". So we never gave it another thought. Could it actually run that long if the "adjustment" was done more than 13 years ago? Granted we didn't put a lot of miles on it, maybe 7000 miles when we sold it.

Don and Cary

George, he can remove the straps holding the engine up, undo things like the cooling.air exhaust system etc and drive line and the engine will tilt out making it easier to work on fwiw  that is a bummer for sure, wish I could help but I am 500 miles from you and don't have any lefty parts or engines

George
FWIW if it were me I'd get on the horn and talk to Brent @ American Fleet in Springfield, MO and ask him about having it towed there!
I have bought one of their engines and installed it in our bus myself, as well as bought a complete bus from them that someone had them build and install an engine for, but then fell on hard times and signed the title over for it because they could afford the bill.
Had great results out of BOTH engines and know of others who have dealt with them more than I have that referred to them in the first place.

I'm pretty sure they have a wrecker service they work with regularly that would give them a fair rate.
I am fully confident in their ability to do the complete R&R/build for you at a very reasonable cost. (yes I know it's a 1000 mile tow)
I have been to their facility and been given the grand tour when picking up my engine and even got to watch them dynoing my engine before loading it on the trailer for the trip home!

I have no connection with them other than have been a paying customer and had good results!

Quote from: luvrbus on September 07, 2016, 12:55:07 PM
George, he can remove the straps holding the engine up, undo things like the cooling.air exhaust system etc and drive line and the engine will tilt out making it easier to work on fwiw  that is a bummer for sure, wish I could help but I am 500 miles from you and don't have any lefty parts or engines

Clifford it sounds to me as if they are not comfortable even working on it anymore than they already have from what he says.

That's good info Clifford, thanks! I'll forward that on to the shop and see what they say.
I'm kinda surprised they didn't think of/know that.

Thanks for the additional info on American Fleet, B_K. They're actually at the top of (a quite short) list of my options.
It's good to know (from fellow busnuts) that they have a good history with these engines and buses in general.
I ran the (mental) calculation of towing that bus there. But wow, 1000 mile tow would be one heavenly tow bill :)

While I'm willing to go ahead and put the new engine in, I just get this twisted feeling in my gut that these guys (while well intentioned and I'm sure capable) will get lost in the weeds when things aren't exactly as they'd expect it.

This bus was obviously radically changed from OEM, just cramming that 6v92 in it. And I don't know if they'll have the creative... wherewithal to work outside-the-box if things get... different.

Hmm.........

Quote from: luvrbus on September 07, 2016, 06:02:18 AM
Warranty on a re=man is not much better, 1 year and most suppliers won't pickup the towing fee,then some have to go back to the installer or supplier.Some engines are good candidates for a inframe some are not if his crank is good I would go for it

inframe...unless i was doing it myself :)

How much money you put into fixing it should depend on what you can afford and how many more years and miles you expect to run the bus. That call has to be yours, but your choices are confined by a custom setup of a left-turning engine. It is too late now, but looking back, do you think the engine was giving you warning signs with the heating problem and acting different when cold?

I don't know how many times I have to say it, but until they drop the pan and make sure they crank is okay on each and every rod and main bearing from the antifreeze in the oil they are wasting your time and money. 

Also, I have inframed a lot of 4106's.  It is absolutely no problem pulling the inside head with a cherry picker once you take the blower off.  The problem here is what was built inside the bus over the inside engine access.--😭Geoff

I don't know about the towing deal,Johnathan paid $6500.00 to have his bus shipped 1900 miles to me to do some engine work and install a automatic 740.

It got here in such a mess because of the trucking and wrecker service Progressive wrote it off today as a total loss. 

^ details cliff? Did they mess up the bus? And George, are you considering having the coach towed to a lot and selling it for what you can get at this point?


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Quote from: Scott Bennett on September 07, 2016, 09:23:32 PM
^ details cliff? Did they mess up the bus? And George, are you considering having the coach towed to a lot and selling it for what you can get at this point?


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Tons of photo's on Bus Conversion International on F/B of the bus a beautiful bus inside and out 1 of a kind MCI 7 destroyed,  sad he just sold his house and bought the bus to travel and full time home schooling their daughter

Clifford (and others), is there any way to estimate how long it should take to pull that engine and then replace it with the new one, in a 4107 chassis (from your previous experience)?

It obviously won't be exact -as I would expect a few bumps here and there, that most shops should be able to handle. But I'm just looking for a ballpark figure from someone who has had a bit more experience doing so.

Thanks,
George

George, I would figure 3 to 4 days when you start swapping the stuff over there is no telling what you run into and it depends how fast Luke can ship the parts needed and you will need parts.That being a custom install in your bus I still would in frame the engine,it's hard to screw up the bottom end on a DD the top is where it get screwed.

You can call the engine rebuilt, re-cond or what ever but you are still going have some used parts as long as the fall in the DD limits the parts will have some wear same as your engine   

I'm also tossing around the idea of getting an engine with jakes preinstalled. Any thoughts on how much more difficulty that will make it?
Do you think that jakes would make it difficult to get that engine to fit in the space available?

Thanks again!!

There is room above but you need to cut the tail gate for the bottom to fit

Thanks Clifford!

So that might get kinda ugly... Hmmm...

FYI, I just sent you PM.

     George, I hope that it goes without saying, but I am really sorry that this has happened to you.  I'm sorry for the delay, the heartburn, the $$$ loss, the loss of use of your bus/home, and the troubles that you have just thinking about it all.  Good luck with getting it taken care of best you can. 

Quote from: Oonrahnjay on September 08, 2016, 11:02:23 AM
     George, I hope that it goes without saying, but I am really sorry that this has happened to you.  I'm sorry for the delay, the heartburn, the $$$ loss, the loss of use of your bus/home, and the troubles that you have just thinking about it all.  Good luck with getting it taken care of best you can. 

Thanks a lot Bruce! I really appreciate that!!
My head is spinning right now, but hopefully we'll get through this and look back on it someday as a bump in the road.
I really do love this little bus and I love owning a bus in general and feel that we're a long way from "done".

I just hope the bus feels the same way, lol!

Thanks again,
George

Who Was the trucking company Luverbus .I got a Prevost that might need to go on a trip with these guy's!!!! LOL Incidentally, I also have Progressive insurance!!

Geom: Someone has a 1985 Prevost (nope not mine)on the local Craigslist for 27000.00 Haven't looked at it but the pic really looks good and they say it is super clean. That is probably less mony than you are already on the hook for.

There is a bump out on the tail gate. There might be room for the jake brake valve cover.

Don and Cary

Wonder what it would cost to ship it on a railroad flat car?

Quote from: chessie4905 on September 09, 2016, 07:17:37 PM
Wonder what it would cost to ship it on a railroad flat car?

i used to move a lot of construction machinery ... one time 48 trailer loads from Seattle to northern Ontario.

the railroad offered a bid... but their load requirements and BS i would not have endured for free..:(

George, How is this coming? Hoping for good things for you and your bus.  Tom

OK guys, time for a (not so) quick update.

The last few days have been a whirlwind mix of heartache, resignation, and resolve.
It's also been an endless series of differing options and analysis paralysis  ;D

But after a lot of thought, we've decided to go ahead and get a replacement engine from American Fleet. It just felt like the decision that puts us into a more predictable and known state with our engine.
Brian from American has been great to work with. He's been forthcoming with information, timely with his responses, knowledgable of our situation, and generally a good guy to work with. Hopefully their engines are as good as their employees  ;)

We had seriously considered rebuilding this engine (both onsite here or with the gracious help of others on the forum), but figured that a rebuilt engine has already had the "oh, that part should really be replaced too" scope-creep already dealt with.
The cost of a rebuild (using this shop) and that of a reman were very close. And perhaps it's misplaced faith, but it seemed to me a fully rebuilt and already tested-functional engine would be the faster way to get back on the road and not spend weeks (months??) trying to get this one going again.

A big thanks to everyone for their advice, information, and support. It was invaluable in helping me make this rather tough and unpleasant decision.

Now, onto the actual progress,

The engine was pulled early this week. The shop was able to pull it out in a day (afternoon, reall). It was a pretty straight forward process.
It's surreal seeing that engine sitting on a pallet, with a giant gaping hole in the back of the bus where an engine should be.

After checking into the serial number, it appears that this engine was a right-hand 6v92 in a previous incarnation.

American fleet suggested that it would be better to send them the current engine, so they can make sure that the replacement is as close to this one as possible. While that will obviously add delay, it seemed like a reasonable step.

We had hoped that our engine would be on its way today, but the shop didn't get to taking the engine apart today. So they'll be working on that early next week, and hopefully be on its way by Tuesday.

We are taking this opportunity to check all the other supporting parts (air compressor, power steering pump, starter, etc) checked, to make sure they're still up to par.

We will be recoring the radiator. It looks like the current radiator is a 3 core. If we can get it to fit, I'd like to get a 5 core as a replacement. We'll be getting two different radiator shops looking at that next week.
Along with that, we'll have them look at the transmission intercooler to make sure it's still healthy.

We're also going to drop the transmission pan and make sure things in there don't look gummy, worn, charred, scorched, etc. While not a guarantee of health by any means, it'll tell us if the trans should also get some attention.


As is always the case with something like this, I'm sure the scope creep will be endless. But it's really tempting to have all this shtuff dealt with now with the engine out and on a cradle, rather than later on the side of the road  ;)
And hopefully the process of reassembling Humpty Dumpty back together again won't be as painful as I'm currently suspecting/expecting it to be (yeah right  ::) )

That's all for now, but I'll try to continue providing status updates as we get them.

Also, if anyone has additional suggestions of things to look out for, check, inspect, change, etc with the engine out, please let me know.

Thanks again for all of the help,
George

Hang in there George it's only money my motto "you can't take it with you and sure don't go anywhere with out it". I hope you get back on the road soon being in a shop for a month can take a toll on you mentally BTDT.

I am in Phoenix working on a 15 year old Jasper re-man 8v71 turbo engine one of the better re-man engines I have came across in while not 1 used bolt on the engine    

George, we are all here rooting for you. When this is over, you'll have a coach that will likely outlive you. Just sayin. Keep us updated. Photos are always nice too


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Quote from: luvrbus on September 16, 2016, 04:18:03 PM
it's only money ... "you can't take it with you and sure don't go anywhere with out it"

Thanks guys for the kind words of encouragement.
Believe me, they're quite helpful at a time like this.

We are just trying to keep focus on the larger picture, in some hopefully not too distant future.
And indeed, having a rig that will "outlive us" sure would be nice.
Here's to hoping :)

Clifford, I LOVE the above quote. I think I'm going to use that one myself ;D

Scott, I'll try to post some pics once I get them uploaded off of the camera.
Not a whole lot to look at, right now, other than busted valves, slap-worn rocker arms, and a trashed piston, LOL.
But it should make for some "oh, look at that" viewing :D

Exactly. Honestly you're going through something most of us on here consider one of our worst bus-related nightmares and I give kudos and hats off to those of you who have faced and come through a catastrophic engine failure. Heather and I are rapidly trying to save our pennies for such a time as this. And since we are Fulltimers with no home except the coach, it's even more serious.


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maybe I am wrong but .... the 1st part of the rebuild of the coach was not just the inside rework but had to include the mechanical stuff like new brakes,drums ,air bags ,shocks ,tires .+ a out of frame rebuild was always on the to do list and I shopped around because I had time and found a great shop to do the work . I pulled the engine , transmission out with the help of a truck mechanic ( less then 3 hours to remove ) removed the transmission and shipped the engine on a skid by way of truck ( $ 500.00 ) each way to Leids diesel for the full rebuild at a cost of $ 10 k and 3 weeks from the day it was sent out to the day it returned . while it was gone it gave me time to clean up the engine bay and rebuild the stuff that needed it.

my point is how can you gamble with the fact that this was a in service BUS the day before I bought it and drove it home and the reason it was for sale was it was worn out . so it has to be part of the full rebuild and if it is done before the on the road explosion ever happens the cost and the stress is far less

but I see all the time people buy these old buses and spend to much money on the rebuild of the shinny stuff on the inside ( I did the same ) and not on the mechanical stuff that is like a ticking time bomb waiting to go boom  

I hope all goes well with the rebuild and the idea of sending them the old engine to set up the new rebuild the same is a solid plan . but there will be stuff that will have to be adjusted on the install .

best of luck   dave      

The engines are the basically the same L or R the rebuilder probably needs parts from the engine to complete his rebuild like the fan drive those parts are getting hard to find now,just a guess but I am thinking they need his oil pump and cams.

I would tell the guy build me 350 hp 6v92 with a bypass blower and 1100 ft lbs of torque since he is re-coring the radiator that is a no brainier,George is paying now is the time to get what he wants not what they want       

Ok guys, another quick update, and seeking some advice

The old engine is finally apart, sitting on a shipping mount (after a little bit of confusion on the engine shipping mount) and should be on a truck heading to MO this afternoon.
In the meantime I'm trying to work through the other non-engine work, while we wait.

So I had two radiator guys come by the shop today and get me a quote.

The first guy looked at the rad, talked really fast, and said, "you need less radiator".
I'm thinking, "WTH is this guy talking about?".

After clarifying what that means, he explained it this way,
He wants to put a radiator in there that has fewer fins per inch than the current one.
The current one is 11/in and the new one would be 8 or 9/in.
His logic being to allow more air through, which I can sort of see.
This model would be roughly the same thickness as the current radiator. He believes this solution would provide 20% better cooling than what's in there. He attributed that to better airflow and better and more "modern" materials.

He also threw out another option of a thinner rad, that is actually 13/in (thus seemingly negating what he'd just said). He said the thinner rad would allow for better airflow.

Anyway, his bid was $1600-1800 (plus whatever Stewart and Stevenson "adds on" for the privilege of having this done in their shop????).
He would basically be reusing everything from the original rad, minus the core (tanks mounts, etc). I haven't got the "final" bid from S&S and I'm curious how much they'll "tack on" for this, and it'll be interesting to see how much they do tack on.
I don't know if this is normal, but I don't get why they'd add anything (beyond he install) at all, since I'm the one buying the rad, not them.


The other guy bid out a complete replacement of the rad. He'd be installing an equivalent thickness rad (which is about 3.5"), but this one is "fancy" (whatever the hell that translates to).  ::)
The brand is called Optimum and it has 5 rows. And the rad guy said "it's the best cooling radiator he's ran across in 30 years in the business".

His bid was $2470, and he would remount the external transmission oil cooler, so it's better attached and leaves an air space between it and the engine rad.
He'd also charge $230 to clean out the oil cooler and install new gaskets (since it currently has a small leak).


I must admit I wasn't expecting anywhere near this much for a radiator, but I really want to make sure that I don't have (or significantly minimize) any cooling issues with this new engine.

So what are your guys' thoughts?
Are these prices somewhere within reason?
Has anyone heard of, or used that brand of rad?
Should I keep looking?
Other options?

Thanks,
George

I recently got my radiator recored by Atlas Radiator in Santa Fe Springs CA  -  I know, not a likely source for you!   They made me a copper/brass "high performance" core, about 34" x 28.5", 6 rows (4" deep), dimpled tubes, high fin count (I haven't counted how many per inch, but it's the most they could do), with 73 tubes per row (the old core had only 57 per row).   It was about $2000 out the door.   It weighs noticeably more than my old core, presumably because it has 28% more tubes and is 10% larger surface area.   I had my old tanks blasted and powder-coated, and used all stainless hardware to rebolt them to the core.   Yes, my new core will have more airflow resistance due to much denser tube and fin counts, but I also had Multi-Wing make me a 9-blade fan which should pull a lot more air than the archaic old metal fan, and to turn this new fan I had QCC make me a new Webster YC hydraulic gear motor because the old one was leaking internally from years of wear.   Multi-Wing suggested I have the fan turn the opposite direction than before to improve airflow out of the radiator shroud  -  instead of the bottom of the fan rotating towards the front of the bus it now rotates towards the rear, so the spiral of air coming off the fan won't be fighting the airflow under the bus when driving.   I was having a new motor made anyway, so why not?   I also have riveted a 3"-wide duct inside the lip of the radiator shroud so the tips of the fan blades will be entirely within this duct  -  this should also slightly improve airflow by reducing turbulence inside the shroud.   The old hydraulic fluid cooler that used to sit outside the radiator is now relocated:  I don't want anything blocking airflow to the radiator.   I may even cut off some of the radiator door's horizontal slats to make it more conducive to bending the air in as I drive.   I'm presently installing a big remote transmission fluid cooler to reduce the heatload into the engine coolant  -  every degree counts!

I had serious overheating issues this year, hence my complete replacement of essentially my entire cooling system.   I also replaced both thermostats and Alarmstat switch, even though the old ones were still working OK.   It's a lot of work to do all this, but if you want to increase power you will need all the cooling you can get.   If you are redoing things now, just do it as best as possible  -  don't take short cuts or be talked into having something done that only helps the salesman.   You want maximum coolant contact surface area, maximum air contact surface, maximum airflow and unobstructed coolant flow.

Here's some info from a large manufacturer  -  it may help you when you talk to radiator salesmen:  http://www.showmetheparts.com/thermalsolutionsmfg-hdam/ (http://www.showmetheparts.com/thermalsolutionsmfg-hdam/)   Click on Knowledge Center, then Core Information.

John  

I pulled the main and aux radiators out of mine and disassembled them.. Took the cores to a local radiator shop where he measured them, opened a catalog and ordered both rads for me.. I blasted and painted my tanks, replaced hardware and reassembled them when the cores came in. The main core was $800 and the aux core $500. I didn't think that was too terrible for two large rads.

Honestly, less radiator always worries me. You're getting plenty of air flow through your current rads. I wouldn't lower the amount of surface area that you already have. That's what dissipates the heat.


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Read all this and have come to the conclusion that you are better off paying more for a coach if the owner has properly done the mechanicals.  My '06 has never given us any trouble, but we had to pay twice as much as the '04 and subsequently spent $15K on a crank replacement in the '04. 

Now on the '04 George Thornhill opened the rectangular sign area on the back door and installed metal mesh to keep birds out.  That coach (671) never goes over 180 degrees even though it has N-65 injectors, 4 valve head and what appears to be a larger blower with large air inlet on a high block head.  So his hole in the rear door evidently has some real heat extraction value. 

My '06 (8V-71) on the other hand is turboed and will heat.  But it has misters and the greatest amount of heat rejection possible is by water evaporation, period.  When you are climbing in hot weather with a line behind you with nowhere to turn out, the flick of a switch puts out the fire fast.  Am considering doing the same door modification to that coach, and would like input from anyone using water injection which seems to be a very logical step to further reduce heat and probably increase efficiency.  Have a friend who water injects a cummins and he is one of the most meticulous anal nit pickers that I have ever known.  Also a top notch auto electric guru.  Bill T.  P.S. Thought it was a lot easier to work in the engine room of that 07, especially on a 6V which should be smaller than a monster 8V?

Sorry to hear about the troubles,

I know you had a valve lash problem, but for my own curiosity; I have heard it is better to keep the rev's up on the inclines to cool the detroits. Dunno how true that is?!

I hope you ride off into the sunset with a motor and coach that last's!

George

 DON'T BELIEVE IT!.Too much airflow WILL CAUSE heating problems,, the air must remain in contact with the fins long enough to dissapate heat and carry it away.  Thats why waffle fins work so well, then add more area and slow the air speed.>>>Dan

Easy to say because its not my money but I learned long time ago to do it right, do it one time and be done with it!  Great call on American Fleet.  Never used them but I know people that have and never a negative report!

Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on September 22, 2016, 07:47:26 AM
DON'T BELIEVE IT!.Too much airflow WILL CAUSE heating problems,, the air must remain in contact with the fins long enough to dissapate heat and carry it away.  Thats why waffle fins work so well, then add more area and slow the air speed.>>>Dan

Were you replying to my post, or what the Radiator guy said to the other George with the broke down bus?

More airflow with a smaller cubic volume radiator is not a route I would feel comfortable with either..Sounds like he had one kicking around his shop he thought could make work, bigger the better.

Physics wise, more airflow the better!  It is my understanding that waffle fins provide more cooling area vs a rectangle and this was the reason for the extra cooling.

If the engine is at a point where the mechanical work creating the extra flow is creating more frictional heat than the airflow can dissipate there could be an argument.

Let me make an admittedly non-expert comment here.  One can not say that more or less airflow is better as if it is the only factor.  Yes, you can increase airflow by having less fins and tubes, but that also decreases the heat exchange surface.  There is only so much heat that the air will carry off per surface area.  Of course, if you increase fins and tubes to the point that air barely passes through, you will not have much heat dissipation either.  Finding the right balance is what the engineering is about.  With that said, radiator manufacturers are certainly aware that you use their products for heat dissipation and do not design no-flow radiators.  They design bigger, thicker radiators to take on bigger heat loads, and they cost more to do it.  If someone told me my bus needed less radiator, I would thank them for their input and go to find someone that knew what he was talking about.

^ this. Listen to this. Good advice


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HI, just got a recore done to my 1994 Prevost Series 60.The bill at the Rad Shop was $2600.00 Canadian plus tax.I removed and installed it myself.Nelson Rad in Grande Prairie Alberta was highly recommended  so I got them to do it. It was a 6 row core. I am very happy with it. My old core was badly plugged with Calcium.

Cooling need not be rocket surgery.   I say put in the biggest and best system you can, and if it has "too much cooling" then the thermostats will take care of that  -  they determine how much water flows through the radiator and at what temperature.   Correct thermostats prevent over-cooling.   Simple!   That salesman who's trying to sell you something smaller is full of hot air (so to speak).

When I was researching radiators before I got my new core, I was amazed at how ignorant some radiator sales people are about how cooling systems work.   For example, Delbert at Stanton Radiator told me in all seriousness that lower temperature thermostats would cool my engine better!   Wow!   if only it were that simple.

John

A new 7 core radiator 41x 36-1/2 inches with new tanks and side rails for a 1996 Eagle in other words a new radiator cost me $2800.00 plus $280.00 shipping from Texas ouch !!!!,then with a $600.00 fan,$1200.00 for a fan clutch plus the new hoses and clamps cooling is not cheap I am at $5200.00 just for parts no labor I work cheap  ??? ,I did get lucky the charge air cooler (CAC) tested good 

Ok guys, thanks a lot! That's great info.

So it sounds like the second guy is probably the better quote.
And it sounds like a reasonable amount, based on what others have said they've paid.
This will be for a 5 row rad (2 more than original) that is roughly the same thickness as the current one.
So it should fit ok.

I don't have the ability to remove and redo anything here myself. So whatever solution I go with has to be cradle-to-grave handled externally.

I'm liking the idea of a whole new radiator, complete with new tank and mounts.
And I like that better than one cobbled together from old parts and new.
The cost differential is really not that large for the new one.
And I never really thought "you need less radiator" actually made any real sense.
While I could see the "more air movement" argument, taking away surface area that all that air can use to dissipate heat seemed downright... Silly :D

Thanks again!
George

I don't think you need to worry about too much air flow with Taurus fan setup George, when GM changed to a direct drive with a fan clutch it was so much a better setup IMO 

No one seems interested in what I had to say about opening up the back door to allow heat to escape!  Here is something you all seem to be ignoring too.  I had a 1979 Olds Custom Cruiser diesel.  Anyone remember those?  Original engine no good period.  But GM then came out with the Goodwrench roller cam engine and bingo it was a winner!   Only problem is those Cruisers were prone to heat with only a 3 row radiator.  So put a 4 row in it and we saw better control.  But not enough!  Fan clutch was not reliable so went to a stainless steel flex fan.  Better for sure, but ate water pumps.  Better yet would have been a nylon flex fan, but it required a big one and they didn't exist.  Had that car in Death Valley one summer and the GM guys testing new cars were there.  Told them to look at the Cruiser to see if they could recognize the modifications.  They did, but didn't have much to say.  As time went on, put a truck locking torque converter 350 trans in that car, but it couldn't hold the torque of the diesel and wiped the clutches out in it.  79 was pencil injectors and so smoked, but power it had for sure.  100 mph no problem.  But still heated too much for me.  Then one day while at a tire shop, I told them to go ahead and replace the noisy pump with a rebuilt I had in the back.  They looked at it and didn't trust it.  I said, Ok, put in what you have.  They put an Airtex pump in that rocket and by golly took it up Donner after that and she never got over 1/2 gauge, which was impossible prior to that pump.  I'll just finish by saying that the ideal wagon would be same car with same Goodwrench roller cam diesel, but micro injector heads, with a turbo 400 behind it and a gear vendor overdrive behind that.  I think you would also need an '82 injection pump to go with that setup, so all these diesels share common problems.  Heat being the main actor in the melt down process!  FWIW huge item is the pump!

Any update on George he has been down a month now

We received George's engine 2 days ago and we are anticipating that it will be ready to ship back to him next week.

Seems like 6 to 8 weeks is the norm now for a engine rebuild  ???

OK, quick update

Not a whole lot has changed so far

As Brian said my old engine arrived at their facility this week and they'll be working on it over the next few days, to turn it around early next week.

Shop here continues to check the supporting cast of parts to make sure they're still up to par.

I have a list of parts that I need to source (I'll post in more detail in another post).

A lot of the other components appear to be in good shape but,

1) the power steering pump is shot. The vanes are worn and it should be replaced
2) the power steering piston up front needs to either be rebuilt or replaced. It has leaked for a long time and squealed on occasion. The shop removed and identified the problem as the ball valve actuator thing. It is worn and loose. In addition the piston itself has a small fluid leak around one of the gaskets. The shop here is trying to figure out where to repair/rebuild it if that can be done, or where to source it if it should be replaced.
3) the radiator fan appears to be old and the plastic appears brittle. While it is fine now and only has minor chips in it, we decided replacing it is the right course of action, lest it come apart at a later time and launch itself into the new radiator
4) the motor mount bushing needs to be replaced. He's already replacing the two rectangle ones on the bottom, but there's a big rounded-square looking one with a round bushing on one of the corners.

I'll post the above parts in a separate post, but if anyone has a line on any of the above, I'd really appreciate it.

For now the shop continues to try and source parts and a few minor things, until the engine gets here.
We have been down for about a month now. A lot of that time has been hurry-up-n-wait.
While removing the engine went quick, the disassembly of the supporting cast of parts took a long time.
Then getting the engine crate here and my engine back to American Fleet took about 8 days.
And in the meantime just working on all of the bits and pieces that have issues.

No one's fault really, I guess that's just how things go sometimes. I'm just really glad we're somewhere where we can be for this long. We ditched the hotel idea three days in (I'm really not a fan of hotels) and managed to find a decent little cottage using Airbnb.

I will say that the value of Internet access to resources like this board, Airbnb, others' experience, and just plain ole google searches has been immeasurable. I can't imagine what managing a cluster F like this would've been like 15 years ago, lol.

So thank you all again, for helping me manage this :))
George

Just hang in their George not much else you can do,I cannot believe a outfit that large did not have a 6v92 built ready to ship o well maybe they will give you a big cut rebuilding yours LOL I can start you GOFUNDME account buddy no not really but I hate it when it takes so long as I know the meter is running 

Well it's been a while and I thought I'd provide a (not so) quick update (since some have asked :) )

We're still here in NM. Our engine was delayed because while dynoing it, something was off about the turbo. So they had to order a new one, which took an additional day, plus some more dyno/testing time. But our engine eventually got here yesterday.
It looks nice and shiny, and I can't wait to actually see it installed and more importantly running!

American Fleet has been good to work with, in keeping me informed of the status of the engine and of the progress so far. And they've been easily accessible by phone with questions. In addition to catching what might've been a potential future turbo failure, I think they also caught what could have been a giant CF with making sure the generator gear-set is actually dialed in correctly and adjusted for our specific generator. Something that seemed to befuddle the mechanics here when asked to provide the info AF needed to do so. But everyone eventually ended up on the same page.

After spending 6 weeks scratching our... let's call it heads, we finally decided to disassemble the fan and lo and behold there are part numbers on the fan and on the clutch.
So we've started the process anew of trying to find the right fan.
We believe we have finally found the right parts, but it's going to take an additional 1-3 days to make/ship the parts.
In addition, after talking with the folks at kit masters, it appears that the clutch is a clockwise clutch, on a counterclockwise fan. While likely not a huge issue (I hope), as the original clutch come pre-assembled as one piece; some of the replacement clutches now come as "assemble on the fly" type clutches with a threaded connector for the pilot. If that's what the shop actually ordered, then obviously that will not work as the reversed rotation will eventually counter the thread back-out and fail spectacularly. So I need to double check that.
In a million years, I never would've figured the hardest thing to replace on a 50 year old bus would be the stinkin' radiator fan. But here we are.  

So we're stuck here yet another week.
The hope was they'd probably start assembling the engine today.
I do think the shop here is trying hard to do right by us, and do sense a genuine empathy for our predicament. I also think a vehicle like this is pushing their comfort level beyond what they're used to working on.
But we continue to drudge through this process. While it has been a good learning experience, it has also been extremely taxing both financially and mentally. But I'm hoping we're nearing an end; and the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train.

I don't mean to sound morose, and I know that this is a process that has to be worked through step-by-step; but I am sick of staying in hotels, miss my home, and just want my bus back.

Hopefully we'll get past this and look back on it as yet another story to tell.
And hopefully soon, an upcoming post will be one of joy about my shiny new engine, roaring to life with that lovely throaty rumble of a two stroke.  :)  : 8)

Thanks for the update George glad it is finally coming to gather 2 months is a long time.I am going to give you some advice and that being while you are waiting on the fan parts with not knowing how many mile are on the alternator I would replace the bearing.
The manual calls for the alternator bearing to be replaced @100,000 miles.I know you want it done right and bearings are cheap insurance the gear driven alternator is a time bomb just waiting to go off.
When the guys install the alternator make them coat the gears with a marking compound like Ratech or Prussian Blue install the alternator with 2 bolts, bar the engine over a couple of rotations remove it and check the gear mesh to be on the safe side.If the wear is excessive you will need to replace the drive and the small alternator gear 
It is lot better to be safe than sorry Stewart and Stevenson or American is not going to be responsible for the alternator and the damage it can cause and believe me it can destroy a engine when it goes.I hate those things hanging on the back of a engine  

good luck        

Sounds like your shop, and American Fleet, are looking after you well. Like putting an engine on a dyno before it goes out the door revealed a bad turbo. A lesser shop would have sent it out without knowing of a problem. Hang in there, you can look forward to a good bus when you drive out of there.

JC

Wonder were they got the turbo from I watched the Cat dealer testing rebuilt turbos they run a test with mock up ETG and oil supply let the turbo cool down and run the test 3 or 4 times then run it for 2 hrs they call it cooking eliminates the break it and will find any problems.I think all good turbo shops do that maybe they did his in house.

I would really love to see his build sheet and the dyno sheet on that engine to see if they used a water brake dyno or a Eddy current dyno.I have a place close that lets me use their chassis dyno lol I crossed my fingers when I had my DL3 on it a few weeks back all was good with the 60 series but it had enough the fan was humming and the poor thing was gasping for air    

George, are you on the road yet ? give us a update lol I understand if you are trying to deal with sticker shock and don't want to update us but we worry about you and the wife

Quote from: luvrbus on October 20, 2016, 07:12:46 AM
I would really love to see his build sheet and the dyno sheet on that engine to see if they used a water brake dyno or a Eddy current dyno.I have a place close that lets me use their chassis dyno lol I crossed my fingers when I had my DL3 on it a few weeks back all was good with the 60 series but it had enough the fan was humming and the poor thing was gasping for air    

What did you get on the dyno? We dyno'ed it once using a chassis dyno. Exciting.

John, I am @ 467 hp at the rear wheels now

Quote from: luvrbus on November 01, 2016, 12:25:08 PM
George, are you on the road yet ? give us a update lol I understand if you are trying to deal with sticker shock and don't want to update us but we worry about you and the wife

Thanks for checking in Clifford.
We're still stuck here in good ole Farmington.
The shop here is.... well, they're the shop here. And they're working on it, day by day.
Most of the stuff is back on the engine and they "hope" to be able to put it in today or tomorrow. This is obviously a far cry from"we can take it out in a day and put it back-in in 2-3 days" but when you're a captive audience you take what you get.
I'm trying (dear gwad am I trying) to be patient, polite, calm, understanding, etc etc etc, but I did make it clear that I'm not spending another bleeping weekend in Farming-bleeping-ton, lol. So I think/hope some forward progress will be made toward that end.

At this point I should've just thrown this thing on a flatbed and hauled it to your shop.  ::) ::)
But hindsight being the 20/20 beast that it is, always has a way of biting you in the...  :'(
Anyway, hopefully this week will find me closer to done, because I know I'm done  ::) :)

It takes a lot longer than most think to dress an engine, install the transmission, hook all the stuff back up.  It's the real time-waster in the process, it's easy to think it just takes a few hours.  I hope you'll be rolling real soon.

Brian

Hours don't work for me either you work at to be done in 2-10hr days,but 2 months is a very long time to be stuck in Farmington NM.I spent a year in Farmington and Hobbs NM if you were going to the world a enema that would be a good place to start  ;D 

George, are we still in Farmington NM for another week end  ???

<sigh>, yes we are still here in Farmington and still trying to bring this to an end.  ::)

We sure hope you aren't paying for all this time. Geeze

Don and Cary

Still here and the meter is, of course, still running. 

This might sound a bit obvious, especially now (Bless your hearts)...but since this "learning experience" caused the engine to be removed, PLEASE do yourself a favor and check every inch of every engine harness.
Make sure the engine bay is spotless, repair any damage (bondo and fiberglass are wonderful...so is waterweld for small things).

The reason I am stating the obvious? In a bus of that age, any wiring is subject to weather...and mice. I have a 74 and deconstructed the TV stand in the bedroom to access both engine panels, to make and install a new harness for the 50DN. SO glad I did.

But the condition of the bay (painted a light color) can give you priceless clues in the future about your rebuilt setup, and there is nothing, save your current experience, more maddening than hunting for one bad wire.

Well wishes, and prayers you'll be hearing that beautiful 2 stroke sound soon.

Quote from: luvrbus on October 20, 2016, 04:57:52 AM
Thanks for the update George glad it is finally coming to gather 2 months is a long time.I am going to give you some advice and that being while you are waiting on the fan parts with not knowing how many mile are on the alternator I would replace the bearing.
The manual calls for the alternator bearing to be replaced @100,000 miles.I know you want it done right and bearings are cheap insurance the gear driven alternator is a time bomb just waiting to go off.
When the guys install the alternator make them coat the gears with a marking compound like Ratech or Prussian Blue install the alternator with 2 bolts, bar the engine over a couple of rotations remove it and check the gear mesh to be on the safe side.If the wear is excessive you will need to replace the drive and the small alternator gear 
It is lot better to be safe than sorry Stewart and Stevenson or American is not going to be responsible for the alternator and the damage it can cause and believe me it can destroy a engine when it goes.I hate those things hanging on the back of a engine  

good luck        

The generator seems to be serviced by engine oil on the v71 is this same on the 92? Thus if that bearing goes :(

a screen might make good sense there!

Alternator on my fishbowl is non oiled and goes to the AC.

If gear driven yes  ;)

Van Man, moma's back in the Drivers seat this week. We went out to the Casino Parking lot and she tested her foot and away we went. She was having so much fun driving the Bus again. So far ankle is ok at that angle for her...... Relief drivers are good on long trips eh... ;D
Dave