Here we are setting in front of the shop in Boise waiting for a ecm. We were traveling from Cascade to Fruitland yesterday, stopped north of Horse shoe bend for lunch and then the bus would not start when we wanted to get back under way. First thing i did was to pull the fuel filters and made sure they were full, then next to remove and clean all the battery connections to the ecm, clean and retighten the cable connections in the engine compartment and still no joy. Pulled the following codes: 42, 43, 44, 54 and 62.
I called smith diesel and they sent out a mechanic to change the srs, when that didn't work he checked the harness at the ecm, THEN hr decided it would be advantageous to plug in the computer. Nothing showing up for the srs or the trs. He says the ecm is bad. One has been ordered and will be here in the morning. I'm not totally convinced but I did let it be known I am not paying for unnecessary parts changing. $2056 for the ecm plus tax and labor. Setting at about $4000 if this fixes it. Fingers crossed.
I hope that fixes it for you, but stories like this take away any longing I might have for a stronger newer engine. Mechanical 2 cycles have their problems, but they don't usually cost that much in one stroke while on the road. Adding oil every so often is not really so bad, and crawling up the mountains allows you to see more scenery. The Series 60 is a good engine, I have had it in several trucks, but boy, those computers cost.
Did you check the coolant before you went to Smiths that is a good shop by the way.I haven't figured how the coolant lift pump works on mine yet but if the tank gets low of coolant it will not start I found that out when I changed the coolant,I do like the tank it is so easy to fill
Yes the upper tank is well above the sensor and the lower tank also has coolant in it. When they hooked up the computer to the ecm they were not seeing any input from the srs or the trs when cranking.
Do you have a coolant pump switch on the rear engine control panel? Depressing that should activate the pump if the level is low.
Quote from: luvrbus on August 16, 2016, 07:37:17 AM
Did you check the coolant before you went to Smiths that is a good shop by the way.I haven't figured how the coolant lift pump works on mine yet but if the tank gets low of coolant it will not start I found that out when I changed the coolant,I do like the tank it is so easy to fill
The lift pump switch is on the rear control panel. The pump is mounted up pretty high, so sometimes you have to bleed the air pocket in the line. Then all you have to do is keep the surge tank on the passenger side full, and if you ever need to, just use the lift pump to top off the top tank.
Derrick. Sorry about your troubles! Not fun at all!
Derrick are those flash codes ? I think the ECM is bad. I upgrade to a DDEC IV and have a spare DDEC lV now, you better get a spare for the B500 also, John gave me a spare ECM for the B500 cost me 200 bucks to have repaired but it is cheap insurance I think
Cliff i got the codes by pressing the button in the luggage compartment. On my list of spare parts to aquire is another ecm, srs and trs sensors, air governor, and now i will also add a transmission ecm.
I have a spare mt42 starter for the 8v71. Is that the same as for the 11.1?
Quote from: thomasinnv on August 16, 2016, 09:58:56 AM
Cliff i got the codes by pressing the button in the luggage compartment. On my list of spare parts to aquire is another ecm, srs and trs sensors, air governor, and now i will also add a transmission ecm.
I have a spare mt42 starter for the 8v71. Is that the same as for the 11.1?
Buy yourself a MT39 it takes away some of the pain in changing 1 and low voltage won't kill it
MT42 starter is a direct drive monster. MT39 is the newer gear drive starter-half the weight, half the cranking electrical draw, twice the longevity. Good Luck, TomC
They put in the ecm and still won't start. They are scratching thier heads and playing guessing games on my dime.
Ok I bet it was interlocked to handicap door you removed
I did mention that but they don't believe there is anything that would prevent it from starting. The handicap lift was connected to the fast idle and park brake solenoids.
They are not seeing any rpm on the monitor while cranking. Srs and trs are showing nothing.
Derrick,
I've got an idea for you. We lost a fuse for our transmission (B500 on a DL3 - now Clifford's bus) in Boise. It would not allow our bus to start. The fuse was in the front J box, behind a bunch of wires, crammed against the front wall of the bus. I would start looking at the transmission. If the engine can't read it, it won't let the engine start. In this case, since we lost the fuse, it couldn't tell if it was in N, so it would start.
Hey john316 when you lost the fuse did it still crank?
So far they have replaced both sensors twice, replaced part of the wire harness, and connected an alternate power source directly to the ecm. They rolled us out for the night and will get back on it in the am. They are going to take a close look at the bullgear, and make sure the pin hasn't relocated itself to the pan. Hmmm, I suggested that they look at the bullgear hours ago. We will see.
No it did not crank. Just had a check engine light and flashed some codes. If check those fuses just in case.
You can also turn the master switch on. Then see if your Allison pad lights up. If it doesn't, then tranny issue.
Hope you get it figured out! I really feel for you. I know what it's like and I don't envy you one bit.
All the lights are doing what they should and it is cranking, just not firing. The no srs has me suspecting either a worn/damaged bullgear or a damaged/relocated srs pin. They have eliminated everything electrical and electronic at this point.
I never heard of a pin falling out parked but anything is possible.
OT I been trying to help a guy on F/B who bought a bus with a famous 10,000 mile rebuild it lasted 20 miles and dropped 3 cylinders and I haven't heard what else is going on.You want to sell the engine in your MCI 8 Derrick
Cliff the whole bus (mc8 ) is for sale. I haven't listed it anywhere becuase I am on the road for another 2.5 months but if the guy is interested we should talk and we can work something out. You could go to my place and get it.
Back on topic, I have never heard of a pin falling out just setting either, but unless I understand incorrectly once the engine is running you can unplug the srs and it will still run until you shut it down. I am leaning more towards the bullgear or an incorrect airgap @ the srs. I have experienced a few hard starts over the last month ie extended cranking. Otherwise it has always fired up on the first spin.
The pin has relocated itself so it looks like time for a new bullgear.
You are lucky or blessed maybe both when that pin falls out running you can pickup a series 60 in a basket,1500 bucks plus labor and you going again
good luck
Yes the repair cost itself isn't too bad, but add to that all the hours of diagnosis it took them to find the problem and the bill will be double.
I'd be arguing on the time it took to do some of it as they just jumped right on ordering a new ECM without farther testing!
I'd tell them they need to eat half the time as a "LEARNING experience" and tell them that education is expensive and if they won't give you a break on their incompetence bill them for educational services since YOU already suggested the bull gear earlier on!
I would be paying for parts not needed either!
;D BK ;D
The shop foreman said he would "work with me" on the labor and they will reinstall the old ecm once they have it back together and check to see if it is good. I will give him a chance to make it right before I step in and make any demands, but you can believe I am not about to pay for unnecessary parts or thier learning experience.
Quote from: thomasinnv on August 17, 2016, 12:02:04 PM
The shop foreman said he would "work with me" on the labor and they will reinstall the old ecm once they have it back together and check to see if it is good. I will give him a chance to make it right before I step in and make any demands, but you can believe I am not about to pay for unnecessary parts or thier learning experience.
They will I have had work done in Boise and Salt Lake at Smiths and was never over charged.The thing to watch now is some of these shops are charging double the standard labor rate for diagnostics. I was in a large truck dealership the sign read $125.00 shop labor.
Diagnostics for electronics engine,transmission,chassis and suspension $200.00 per hour welcome to the world of electronics
The rate for rv and coaches is 125 he said he would charge me 112. I left to run some errands and get some groceries, when I got back at noon they already had the new gear in and the front cover on, putting things back together. Might be done this afternoon or tomorrow morning.
IT'S ALIVE!!! The bus once again has a heartbeat. They will finish putting things back together in the morning and we should be on the road before lunch. Tomorrow will make day number 4 parked at the shop. We ran out of fuel in the generator tank yesterday afternoon and it's been so hot and humid without air conditioning on this blacktop. Be glad to get somewhere tomorrow we can plug in and turn on the air. They ran us a cord but it won't run the air.
Glad to hear you're back up and running!!!
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Total bill ended up being 4725. I feel they could have done a little better on the bill, but I am satisfied. I think overall they were pretty fair, and they are a good bunch of guys, they treated me really well while I was there. I generally shy away from big shops like this because they tend to cost alot more, but I would absolutely recommend these guys. Smith power in Boise ID, good shop to go to.
That price is not bad a bull gear replacement only can cost $3500.00 even at a independent shop like Southern Oregon Diesel
good luck
Forgive my ignorance, I have never worked on a Series 60, just driven for many miles - was the bull gear primarily replaced because the SRS timing pin came out? I had the impression that the bull gear was good for about 800,000 - 1,000,000 miles, and that the bearings it rides on were the first things needing replacement during an overhaul, and that bull gears can be reconditioned. Was a new bull gear the only option?
If a bull or idler gears shows any wear chip,pits you replace both,the SRS pin is set at a certain depth if ever exceeds the set depth by .010 like Derricks did you are screwed it costs you a bull gear.I would never buy a re con bull gear just bite the bullet and buy a new one
Quote from: luvrbus on August 18, 2016, 05:33:35 PM
If a bull or idler gears shows any wear chip,pits you replace both,the SRS pin is set at a certain depth if ever exceeds the set depth by .010 like Derricks did you are screwed it costs you a bull gear.I would never buy a re con bull gear just bite the bullet and buy a new one
Oh, I think it is safe to say that my personal money will not buy a bull gear or the engine it goes in. I will just be happy with my mechanical 2 cycle. These repair stories scare me sufficiently. Say, was the bull gear name ever shortened by any chance?
Yea but $32,000.00 for rebuild on a 8v71 or $55,000.00 for a 8v92 rebuild scares you too.Derrick's engine ECM is showing 1 million 100 thousand miles what is that less than a 1/2 cent a mile ?
Yes, but did Derrick get the benefit of all of those million miles? I shudder to think what the full-blown overhaul cost for the Series 60 is. In today's market, it's cheaper to buy a decent conversion.
Quote from: luvrbus on August 17, 2016, 12:23:28 PM
Diagnostics for electronics engine,transmission,chassis and suspension $200.00 per hour welcome to the world of electronics
[Goes out and hugs his mechanical Cummins/Allison].
It really doesn't matter....old or new, mechanical or electronic, thy can all break down
Horse and buggy
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Quote from: Scott Bennett on September 01, 2016, 09:21:34 AM
Horse and buggy
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Still the same principle today. The buggy has just gotten much larger and the horse is now made out of metal.
Horse and buggy isn't cheap anymore. Shoes for that horse are over $100 every six weeks, hay at $20 a bale, let's not even talk about the vet. They make mechanics look cheap. If the engine goes, you can park it, that horse still eats, every day, lame or not. LOL
Cary
^ that .... Well said
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where are you guys getting your rebuild done, I had a in frame done 5 yrs ago in my dump truck, still works great. new bearings cylinder kits, one new head. the other gone over, Turbo rebuilt, and what ever else 8500.00 out the door. This was on a silver 8v92 445 hp. Had this done in central Pa at a small shop. Oh I did have a new head. which I had bought for 500 dollars a few years earlier. Pays to shop if you have the time.
Big shops expect big bucks, but their work is usually top notch done fairly quickly. Time is money, and they expect to cash in when you are in a hurry. Small shops and independent mechanics can save you a lot, if you have the time to wait, and are lucky that they do not cut corners.
Friggn parts are so expensive now for a 2 stroke from DD I don't use aftermarket liner kits and DD charges $487.00 ea for a kit.
If you buy a rebuilt head for a 8v92 that hasn't been welded before you pay $1200.00 up if you can find a new head they over $3000.00 and machine shops are charging 5 to 800 bucks each now to rebuild a old head .
A new crank will cost you over $4000.00 and the dance goes on if you need cams,blower work and so on it cost you to do one right
My rear engine block to bellhousing is starting to leak. Called smith for an estimate to repair, came in at $3788. Thats to remove the power pack, do the repair, run the top end, and put it back in. I got a estimate from a little Shop in Vegas that "works on buses" to do the repair in place for $1800. After my last experience with a "little Shop that can do the work " I'm thinking I'll just bite the bullet and pay Smith to do it. It will have to wait until spring since the money tree has withered up. It's not leaking really bad yet, about 1 quart in 1500 miles.
Quote from: thomasinnv on August 17, 2016, 03:02:32 PMIT'S ALIVE!!! The bus once again has a heartbeat. They will finish putting things back together in the morning and we should be on the road before lunch. ...
Quote from: thomasinnv on August 18, 2016, 12:33:37 PM... Total bill ended up being 4725. I feel they could have done a little better on the bill, but I am satisfied. ... I would absolutely recommend these guys. Smith power in Boise ID, good shop to go to.
Glad you're back on the road again - sorry about the $$$pain. Thanks for sharing the experience - I've never heard of a bull gear before, so I sure learned something. Best wishes for smooth sailing for many miles from here.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Leid-Diesel-Service/135466509835330 (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Leid-Diesel-Service/135466509835330)
they did mine in 2010
very happy
dave
Quote from: luvrbus on August 18, 2016, 06:24:54 PM
Yea but $32,000.00 for rebuild on a 8v71 or $55,000.00 for a 8v92 rebuild scares you too.Derrick's engine ECM is showing 1 million 100 thousand miles what is that less than a 1/2 cent a mile ?
Luvrbus
Ok, I got to ask where you are getting those prices for reman'd Detroit 2 cycle engines?
That is what they are costing at a Detroit Dealer now 2 here on the board posted what Interstate charged them for a out of frame and my friend paid Valley Power 55 grand for 8v92 all they used was the block on his 8v92.
I could have paid you guys less money for a re-con series 60 engine for less than it cost me in parts only but I wanted all new parts not re-con parts fwiw