Now IC bus has introduced their version. BLUEBIRD did late last year with the 6.8L V10.
http://www.midwesttransit.com/ic-bus-gasoline/ (http://www.midwesttransit.com/ic-bus-gasoline/)
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on August 02, 2016, 06:49:08 AMNow IC bus has introduced their version. BLUEBIRD did late last year with the 6.8L V10.
http://www.midwesttransit.com/ic-bus-gasoline/ (http://www.midwesttransit.com/ic-bus-gasoline/)
"This bus is designed to make ownership more affordable and to provide easier maintenance for school districts and contractors" By going from diesel to gasoline??? Not in my experience!
Well diesel is great for high mileage but not for lower use where the initial cost won't be recovered in a reasonable time. Some just don't want the hassle of DEF and worry about starting in extreme weather. I don't know which truck dealers can service the PSI engine but it does have much GM foundation in place. The FORD V10 in the BLUEBIRD can be serviced at any FORD truck dealer.
It was only a matter of time.
Initial purchase cost of diesel engine systems,
the horrible reliability experienced by fleets of some of these systems,
confusion and misinformation about DEF,
The drivers in most places, part time, by necessity, are not focused on the bus and its workings, quit if there's trouble,
priced a DPF cleaning?
priced a tow truck?
faced fines from the school district for non-performance?
more training for mechanics on juiced medium diesel installs,
Add in the cancer scare of diesel exhaust...
A big block gas engine never looked so good?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I saw a 38 ft Winne that had a big block Chevy in the pusher arrangement,the owner says it has plenty of power for the mountains out west and pushed 10 mpg.LOL we have a old schooie I play with that has a 534 Ford gasoline pusher I think it gets 11 mpg 1 going and 1 coming.The new gasoline engines have no problem now lasting 300,000 mile with nothing ever done to one maybe spark plugs @ 150,000 miles
Although nothing has been said, THOMAS will likely follow suite and offer a gasoline version too we'll see. They ought to make deal with CHRYSLER and offer one of their truck V8's. That way when people see one, they can ask...Is that a HEMI?
I doubt it since they use a GM big block for their propane version but hey, you never know.
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me power wise, but then again I'm not the one weighing and counting cost of the exhaust systems maintenance.
Floyd
Wouldn't it be neat if there was a really big gas engine, and it was under the floor to keep a low center of gravity and good handling? Oh wait, there were. RIP, Crowns with Hall-Scotts, you're still missed (except for the 3 MPG bit).
Their drivers learnt that if you turned off the ignition while coasting, pumped the accelerator a few times, then restarted the engine, you could get a 6 feet long flame out the exhaust, enough to scare the living snot out of anyone tailing them too close. However, done too often resulted in the muffler being blown clean off - they couldn't say that they were "just driving along" because everyone knew the real reason why!
John
Quote from: luvrbus on August 02, 2016, 08:04:45 AM
I saw a 38 ft Winne that had a big block Chevy in the pusher arrangement,the owner says it has plenty of power for the mountains out west and pushed 10 mpg.LOL we have a old schooie I play with that has a 534 Ford gasoline pusher I think it gets 11 mpg 1 going and 1 coming.The new gasoline engines have no problem now lasting 300,000 mile with nothing ever done to one maybe spark plugs @ 150,000 miles
those old 8.1 liter GM's...a ting of beaauty...so Clifford, if you have any influence at GM have the moth balls removed and restart the assembly line :)
Failure of elected school board members. False bean counting. Lack luster maintenance budgets. Focusing on dumbing down students. A lack of professional thinking. Letting the tax payer foot the bill for overall schooling incompetence. So on and so on.
45 years ago they made a good schoolie. Crown Supercoach. Problem even then was that Crowns cost at least twice as much as the cheapo mass produced box bus. Crowns went at least 250,000 miles with no issues. The warrantee was 200,000 and 20 years.
Everything on THAT bus was rebuildable using factory off the shelf truck parts. But ... they did not have the flavor, desirability, political correctness or false bean counting over short term only as the cheapo throw a way school bus. The tax payer pays for it all.
So .... we have gone full circle. No more throw a way diesel engines. Now we have gone to another horrible throw a way cheapo gas engine school bus. All cheap. All junk. All throw a way. How about good folks running for the school board? Wow inded!
Sometimes Linux speell chzk is neither. :)
That not the case now HB it is the Feds and their 10 year old thing.I watched the Needles School district dispose of their Crowns what a waste they could not be sold only junked because of some stupid law .A guy here bought 2 of the Crowns and sold them they came after him and put him out of business in short order
I'm done with diesels in cars and trucks.Tired of 50 cents more per gallon or fuel. Have a TDI Jetta 03 and a 6.5 Chevy. Jetta gets great mileage, but don't put the miles on it anymore. Truck averages in the 17 to 18 teens. Just more maintenance and the newer Duramaxes without their issues, just more expensive to repair. Next vehicles will be gas jobs. Fill with gas and change oil every 10k with Mobil 1. Plugs every 100k. I think when they went Def, the savings disappeared.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 02, 2016, 03:50:13 PMI'm done with diesels in cars and trucks.Tired of 50 cents more per gallon or fuel. Have a TDI Jetta 03 and a 6.5 Chevy. Jetta gets great mileage, but don't put the miles on it anymore. Truck averages in the 17 to 18 teens. Just more maintenance and the newer Duramaxes without their issues, just more expensive to repair. Next vehicles will be gas jobs. Fill with gas and change oil every 10k with Mobil 1. Plugs every 100k. I think when they went Def, the savings disappeared.
I'm about to turn over 410,000 miles on my 03 Jetta Wagon. First brake problem 310,000 (rear caliper stuck), second one 350,000 (pads and rotors up front). Even accounting for the price-fixing on diesel over gas, I paid less for the fuel AND the new price of the car than I would have for just gas to go the same distance -- VW gave me a free car. NO WAY would gas have been quicker. My next car will be a rebuilt '03 Jetta, ALH engine, 11mm bore fuel pump, 5-speed engine. No way am I ever going to run anything that needs DEF.
Many school districts are now contracting out their transportation needs so it only figures that the contractors would be looking to buy less costly units to do the same job. Bad thing about a district contracting out is that they likely disposed of their own fleet or sold it to the contractor so they are stuck contracting forever as they likely can't afford to buy a fleet of school buses all at once.
HB that story of shooting fire out of the exhaust pipe always puts a smile on my face. That's one way to keep the kids from acting stupid on the bus. Now the only way would be to handcuff them to the seats but the civil liberty types would go after the bus operator if they tried that but I digress.
It is hard to believe that NAVISTAR is just about out of the engine business. Further reading shows that they will offer CUMMINS engines in their pusher skoolie for the first time and likely discontinuing the "around forever" DT(old 466) engine. They already did that in the conventional with CUMMINS being the sole diesel in that one. They were once one of highest regarded engine builders not only for their own trucks and bus chassis but even supplied to other OEM's. True, they have some spaghetti plate deals with VW(I think) and CAT for engines but I'm talking about the light and medium duty N. America market. The disaster with the FORD SUPERDUTY played a major factor but still proof that markets and companies sure do change.
Now with gasoline engines also using common rail direct fuel injection (albeit at a lower pressure [32,000psi for Diesel, 5,000psi for gasoline), gasoline engines are as fuel efficient as Diesels-with the only difference in the 20% less BTU per gallon. No matter how efficient gasoline engines get, they will always be 20% less in fuel mileage.
That 8.8 liter engine is 538cu/in GM based.
Freightliner has a 8.0 liter GM based engine used in up to 33,000gvw built as a propane engine, using liquid propane injection. Very responsive.
Gasoline engines are refined and reliable. No more sloppy carbs, or distributors. All electronic, just like Diesels. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 02, 2016, 03:50:13 PM
I'm done with diesels in cars and trucks.Tired of 50 cents more per gallon or fuel. Have a TDI Jetta 03 and a 6.5 Chevy. Jetta gets great mileage, but don't put the miles on it anymore. Truck averages in the 17 to 18 teens. Just more maintenance and the newer Duramaxes without their issues, just more expensive to repair. Next vehicles will be gas jobs. Fill with gas and change oil every 10k with Mobil 1. Plugs every 100k. I think when they went Def, the savings disappeared.
Agreed, I wouldnt buy a diesel daily driver. Unlike the majority here in MT that have a crew cab, 4x4 diesel pickup where all they haul with it are weekly groceries. Gone are the days where gas engines would be done at 100k. Matter of fact, my 2 rigs I drive most are an '84 Toy pickup with 328k original and an '86 Soob with almost as many miles. Both cost me about $300 tops yearly in maintenance.
Be curious to see what they come up with to efficiently push #20k+ around.
It's amazing the HP and torque they can get from the small V6 gasoline engines in the Ford and Chevy pickups now and still get good fuel mileage
Sometimes I wonder if a bus builder like TEMSA would ever consider offering a gasoline engine option for their TS35 and TS30?
It would be great for those who would want a smaller bus but not wanting skoolie.
Tom is right about these new generation of gasoline engines in terms of reliability, efficiency, and durability.
Seem like most of the newer F150's I see have the ECOBOOST V6 engines and most of the reviews state that the users never consider going back to a V8. At least FORD is shrewd enough to offer non turbo V6 and V8 engines along side the ECOBOOST for those who see no need to change yet.
Ford really has it figured out now with the Powerstroke 6.7 L. We have a 2012 that has not been any trouble at all. Just oil changes, a fuel filter change once a year. The DEF is a small price to pay for a good running truck.
JC
Propane power has been an option for a few years now on the V10 Ford and the new GMC 8.0l and the GMC 8.8l. With gasoline getting even cheaper gasoline versions of those same engines are now being offered. HP and torque specs are pretty impressive and vehicle purchase price is less than propane or diesel power. Tom
I should have stated that earlier about the propane engines Tom 120 so Thank You.
I'm a bit surprised though that CUMMINS didn't keep their propane version of the B since the diesel version is standard. But FORD's gain is CUMMINS lose.
I hate to be the stickler but only the 8.0L is a GM engine and the 8.8L is built by PSI.
I worked for a place that used the gas Ford super duties in a construction fleet environment. We had to replace the spark plugs every 36k mikes to keep them from seizing up in the heads. Lots of problems with those engines! We got about 100k and said that's enough! Some of the pickup trucks were only getting 7-8 mpg. I would NEVER trust one in a big bus. Maybe for in town transit and I sure as heck would not trust or local Ford dealer for repairs. Now the big truck shops yes, but not the Ford shop. Just my experience
Eric
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Some of those early TRITON V8 and V10's had problems but those have long since been corrected and that was close to 20 years ago. BLUEBIRD would not have begun to use the FORD 6.8L if they were skeptical and it's the favorite in the class A motorhomes. But all it takes is one time to be soured.
I've seen used schoolie's come in with over 300,000mi on the V-10 Ford and still running well. Good oil changes, maintenance makes for a long running engine.
I'd like to see GM make a V-12 out of the 8.0 V-8. We'd have a 12 liter V-12. Without turbo, my guess would put out about 800lb/ft torque easily. That would be a good one for bus.
What's the maximum horsepower rating of the V10? Can they be had at 500 hp?
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I think 365 HP is the maximum. It's designed for pulling torque than raw power.
Quote from: Scott Bennett on August 05, 2016, 11:54:29 AM
What's the maximum horsepower rating of the V10? Can they be had at 500 hp?
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Stock rating (2016) for 3 Valve V10 is 362 hp. This is a work engine, so very little in the way of upgrade kits available. Turbos could be added (custom work only), but the internals are not spec'd to handle it. The life of the engine would be shortened. This is the engine that had problems with the spark plugs staying in, and getting out. The V8 version has more horsepower, but less torque. The V10 is for vehicles 33,000 lbs. gross, or under.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 02, 2016, 03:50:13 PM
I'm done with diesels in cars and trucks. Tired of 50 cents more per gallon of fuel. Have a TDI Jetta 03 and a 6.5 Chevy. Jetta gets great mileage, but don't put the miles on it anymore.
Yesterday here in Fresno there was only a nickle's difference between regular gas and diesel at the local Chevron - with diesel being lower! But, knowing the fuel industry, that will probably change by the time I finish posting this. ::) However, over the last couple of months, there's only been a 10-15 cent difference between regular and diesel, which is how it should be, IMHO.
I, too, have an '03 Jetta TDI, now with 220K on the wagon's clock. Have had some maintenance issues - mostly neglect by PO - but nothing major. Plus it's a hoot to drive with the 5-spd, especially compared to my lumbering (and soon to be for sale) Tacoma Double Cab Long Bed. I wonder if Jetta's newer 6-spd will bolt up to the ALH engine. . .
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I don't remember the brand name but there are 4 pusher type school buses here with the Cummins ISV 5.0 V8 being tested a neat looking engine and so far not many problems they say, only heating problems so far with low power and torque
I have a friend that has the new Ford F150 with the 2.7 liter V-6 Ecoboost engine. His mileage computer has an average of almost 21mpg!
I'm looking at a pickup myself. One is the Chevy Colorado. I sat in the crew cab at the auto show and had to move the seat up from the furthest back setting to touch the pedals! (I'm 6'3"). Then I went and could easily sit behind the driver's seat. I'd get the new 2.8 liter 4 cylinder Duramax Diesel-supposed to get over 30mpg.
Or the Dodge 1500 Ram Crew cab with the 3.0 liter V-6 Diesel. Also supposed to get 30mpg. Only advantage to the Dodge is you can get it with air suspension.
Any opinions?
Good Luck, TomC
I'm really curious now which pusher skoolie bus is testing that new CUMMINS ISV 5.0L. I know that BLUEBIRD is going to have that engine as their standard engine in the VISION next year but perhaps they will offer that in the ALL AMERICAN(pusher) as well at some point.
Tom, I have read some not so nice things about that RAM 3.0L diesel. Along with other quality problems that CHRYSLER can't seem to get past. It's too bad because their products are as nice as any others. FORD appears to have the best all around quality and value. GM trucks are better than CHRYSLER and they too have wide selection of powertrains. The COLORADO is still very new so I don't know how the quality is.
The best thing about FORD is that they still offer the non turbo V6 and V8 for those no comfortable with the "new fangald turbo gizmos".
We get to see a lot of testing here,you always see vehicles masked so you don't know what they are. I have seen Allison's being tested here and John Deere on -highway engines
Ford has a testing ground at Whitmann northeast of Phoenix and had 1 at Yucca before selling it to Chrysler you never know what pops up around here if anything can stand the heat here they will do good in other places
Quote from: TomC on August 06, 2016, 08:07:10 AM
I'd get the new 2.8 liter 4 cylinder Duramax Diesel-supposed to get over 30mpg.
Or the Dodge 1500 Ram Crew cab with the 3.0 liter V-6 Diesel. Also supposed to get 30mpg. Only advantage to the Dodge is you can get it with air suspension.
Any opinions?
Good Luck, TomC
I'd wait until other people have bought them in numbers so that the problems will become known or solved, unless you want to be their tester (with no pay). I used to haul parts for the Duramax Diesel to their assembly plant in Dayton, Ohio. They came from Michigan, Canada, and China (via Michigan). In my experience, not all of the workers who made the parts were happy.
Tom, I would go for a Ford. They really have it figured out now. That's why they are the best seller.
One of my sons wrenches at a GM dealership. They see a lot of front end work on the pick ups, a weak area for sure. And transmission work, again not very good.
A Dodge, really? LOL. Do you want to be seen in one?...
JC
I'm sure many of you know that the NISSAN FRONTIER has that CUMMINS ISV 5.0L in the diesel version.
So there's another option for you Tom.
Tom
I have a 2015 Colorado extended cab , 6'2" box with the 4 banger and the 6 speed stick . love the truck with no problems but I only have 13'000 kms on it
mileage is good at 23 mpg us but if I am towing anything you really have to use the gears as the 4 banger does not have gobs of power
for the 19 k it costs it is a lot of truck
dave
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on August 07, 2016, 05:37:16 AM
I'm sure many of you know that the NISSAN FRONTIER has that CUMMINS ISV 5.0L in the diesel version.
So there's another option for you Tom.
I looked at 1 you can buy a real pickup for $57,000.00
Sorry about that I goofed. I meant the TITAN not FRONTIER.
Thats OK we knew which one you were talking about
a real pick up truck ! you sound like my kid
dave