Had 24.5" rims put on, along with new longer studs for the alcoas and some new wheel seals etc. should these all be lined up or does this mean they are loose? Other side doesn't look like this. Every hub stud has the same amount of thread left.
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something is wrong..very.
wrong studs
wrong wedges
absolutely
wrong
the stud in the hub has too long of threads..so that the shoulder is "out to far"..
holding the wedge "off it's seat"
send the picture to the "?installer?"
these ef-ups always leave me scratching/itching to know what else is goofed up...
Are you talking about the wheel stud nuts or the axle plate nuts? I don't see a problem with the wheel stud but the axle fasteners are WAY wonky.
The wedges should be close to flush with axle ,the long one is because the stud came out he should have removed the nut and reinstalled the stud. Who ever did the job tried to use the nut to push the wedges in and they locked.Make him redo it I always drive the wedges in with a piece of pipe over the studs then tighten the nuts once all the wedges are in place.I am almost sure he didn't buy different wedges that would be a 100 bucks for wedge spacers
Pretty sloppy work, in my opinion. Take it back, and elsewhere in the future. Is this the same outfit that took weeks to get the bearings?
Ive put thousands of the wedges in, them are wrong ( . ) they are normally 1/16-3/32 proud max!
With the other stud being looking so long, there may be a hyd loc in the thread upon installation.
That could be some totally different cones used from original and "wrong"
Floyd
Heck I can only see that the 6:00 stud might be holding this axle securely.
Quote from: luvrbus on July 04, 2016, 08:13:47 PM
The wedges should be close to flush with axle ,the long one is because the stud came out he should have removed the nut and reinstalled the stud. Who ever did the job tried to use the nut to push the wedges in and they locked.Make him redo it I always drive the wedges in with a piece of pipe over the studs then tighten the nuts once all the wedges are in place.I am almost sure he didn't buy different wedges that would be a 100 bucks for wedge spacers
i doubt he bought them either. but maybe he had a coffeee can with a "mixed bag" of nuts and wedges... there are different tapers :(
MCI does some funky stuff I have a terrible time finding gaskets for the axle because of their bolt pattern,some 8 bolts some 10 ,LVMCI his C had 4 wedges per axle and a off size gasket
Scott you have been officially Spanked by the board. Now go back and tell them we are not happy!.... :o :'(
Dave5Cs
Smokes. Ok. I didn't think that looked right. Yep. Same place that held my coach hostage for two weeks waiting on a bearing that Napa could get me the same day. Nice guys, but clueless. Oh well. Live and learn. This was just supposed to be a "give me some tires and change the studs" job but turned into a longer deal. I'll take it back to them. Bummed.
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Quote from: Dave5Cs on July 04, 2016, 09:25:47 PM
Scott you have been officially Spanked by the board. Now go back and tell them we are not happy!.... :o :'(
Dave5Cs
LOL. Leave it to you Dave, to add a little humor into the situation.
It's situations like this that cause people to learn how to do it themselves. It points out the value of good mechanics that know what they are doing and are worth being paid well.
Have him pay close attention yours could be like Tom's model C and doesn't use a wedge spacer on every stud
That's why I do my own wrenching...
JC
Dumb question.....
If you were only getting the studs changed and new wheels why did they even mess with the axle retaining nuts? ? ?
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^^ To press the new studs in/out rather than using a BFH.
Sometimes the axle drive stud comes out when removing the nut. And then when re-installing the studs "sticks" and the nut travels further down the stud. Result = less threads holding the stud in the hub. Some of those look like 2 or 3 threads maybe holding them.
Definately wrong cones. There are split and solid types available. It appears the ones used are the solid type. They may be the wrong degree of taper and although the stud/nut tighten up the cones are not sitting in full contact with the taper of the hole.
i hope a few things...like not far and stop and go high speed to take it back.
i would make them come repair it on site. or pay a tow.
or risk ruining the hub...or axle.
or worse..run the pumpkin out of oil...and kill the diff..
am I the only one seeing a air gap between stud/wedge and flange? Scott I would do it myself with use of a good torque wrench. Over-tight=pulled stud threads.
Did they actually leave your wheels dirty like that or is that fresh oil from the trip home?
Quote from: opus on July 05, 2016, 05:26:35 PM
Did they actually leave your wheels dirty like that or is that fresh oil from the trip home?
Appears they rotated some tires. That wheel has been run as an inner dual (or on a tag or steer).
Honestly I'd be afraid to take it bag to that shop to LET them redo it!
I mean it's plain and easy to see they didn't get the axle back on the hub properly! And it don't matter if it's a bus or truck that's a simple job that ANY TIRE jockey should be able to handle let alone an experienced truck mechanic!
How do we know the really pressed the new studs in properly? Or did they used the retaining nuts and a big @$# impact to pull them back in?
OR DID THEY REALLY GET THEM BACK IN RIGHT AT ALL? (I mean look at the hub!)
Sorry just my opinion!
;D BK ;D
I have no idea what really went on. The head guy did the passenger side and it looks fine. The drivers side was done by someone else and we don't know the status of that side. As for the dirty rim, it was a used rim I bought. It looked like that before I had it installed. Will be polishing them later. Low priority right now.
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Did they refill your hubs with oil after they had them apart or are you running grease packed bearings? With the axle flange stud nuts / cones that loose that hub should be throwing oil all over from between the axle flange and hub face. Look around the circumference of the hub in the valleys between the humps that the studs are screwed into and see if there is a fill plug. Usually they are a hex socket head plug. It may be concealed under the outer wheel so you will have to look closely. If you find the plug and it obviously hasn't been out I would be leery of going very far. Check the side that appears to have been assembled properly to see if the plug was removed on that side. The only other way to get the initial fill of oil out into the hubs is to top the differential up, run the unit up on thick blocks on one side to tip the housing and leave it parked that way for several hours allow gear lube to run down the axle tube and into the hub. Then repeat for the opposite side. Definitely ask some questions about exactly what was done and how it was done. Despise shops that "learn" on customers equipment. Hope no damage has been done.
Don't know the answer to this. I'll check for the plug. I remember my 9 had plugs. I never serviced the axles on the 9. They filled all of my other hubs with oil, so I'm assuming the drive axles are greased bearings. When they had it out, they looked greased to me but I honestly don't know what I'm talking about
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I don't know for sure, but I know the 9 has oil bearings on the drive axle. I can't imagine they changed that on the 102.
He's right. If they didn't give the hubs their initial fill of oil, you could well burn up your bearings. Although, depending on how far you drove, the damage might already have been done.
It does't take long for a dry bearing. I know a shop that had a mechanic who refused to fill the hub. He claimed it was not necessary. Turns out he was wrong on a
customer's bus. The phrase "had a mechanic" in the first sentence are the operative words there. :)
You said the "head guy" did the one side and it looks right. Honestly, I think I would call him and have him come look at the bus where it is and determine if it's correct or not, and if
it's safe to drive. Let him make the determination, and let him take the risk and responsibility.
My DL3 has the plug in each axle not the hubs,most shops pack the bearing with grease instead of depending on the grease to lube the bearings on a fresh install it is sorta of a safety blanket for shops
Quote from: luvrbus on July 08, 2016, 07:05:54 AM
My DL3 has the plug in each axle not the hubs,most shops pack the bearing with grease instead of depending on the grease to lube the bearings on a fresh install it is sorta of a safety blanket for shops
depends...some grease won't allow the gear lube back into the hub...if it came with oil..use oil...
Quote from: eagle19952 on July 08, 2016, 09:02:53 AM
depends...some grease won't allow the gear lube back into the hub...if it came with oil..use oil...
I am not talking about that can of packing,the gear oil will clean the bearing of the grease I have checked that before and nothing bad shows up in sample either.All the buses I been around with greased rear hubs have a special seal to keep the gear lube from washing the grease out YMMD
Our 4104 had a seal that ran on the smooth surface at very end of axle tube. It was or the same diameter as the hub with holes for the axle shaft studs to go through.The bearings rode in grease. We used Mobil semi fluid synthetic grease. I prefer that setup on mine as no gear oil on brakes from seal fail. A wet rear brake on a 4104 will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce braking power. And what a mess to clean up.
Them hub plugs for oil drains, and axle cap plugs also are the upper crust. They may only cost another $buck to machine, but actually guys they are on very few that I seen.
The teaching I was lucky to get for the bearings, was to grease proper then install follow up with a seal. I am always up for learning but if the hub comes off it gets a seal if I have anything to do with it, and so the basic teaching comes in to play and grease the bearing.
I was taught these things when it was "their way or the highway" ; )
The small 1qt jugs seem handy I thought for the hub fill, if out on the roadway working. Sure doesn't take much maybe a 1/4 pint, I actually never measured it, was actually more concerned with checking the diff level afterward.
Quote from: luvrbus on July 08, 2016, 09:15:21 AM
I am not talking about that can of packing,the gear oil will clean the bearing of the grease I have checked that before and nothing bad shows up in sample either.All the buses I been around with greased rear hubs have a special seal to keep the gear lube from washing the grease out YMMD
like i said..depends.
many will read this and ... just grease it .... it isn't that simple.
If you look close at a axle they are design to move gear lube to the axle flange from the differential when rotating that is why some use the seal just as John described.
Ok, I'll see if they will bring a Mobile guy to look at it, but I'm apt to deal with this myself. Can someone outline the removal process of the axle? Remove the nuts and cones and slide her out? Do I jack the coach from the jack point before doing this? And explain again how I fill with oil before putting back together?
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Coach was driven 5.7 miles after repair was made and then parked
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No need to jack it up unless you need to rotate to get the fill plug to the top. The axle is just bolted to the hub with those studs. All you really need to do is pull the nuts and wedges, reseat the studs that appear to be out too far, reinstall the axle, put the cones in where they go (someone said they may go only in every other stud. My 9 had them on every stud.), install and torque the nuts (progressive torque in a cross-wise pattern like installing wheels). There should be a 1/4" plug on the end of the axle plate or on the hub for filling. Add a quart of gear oil into the plug to lube the bearings.
Oh, put a pan under the axle plate. It will probably leak a quart of oil or so when you pull the axle plate apart and make a big mess on your shiny wheel.
As Craig mentioned set you a pan under that hub.
I later learned to just loosen nuts flush with stud ends.
This can protect them when a tough gasket seal needs separating, and in these situations a 1' sawed off 3-4 lb sledge used gently with a 3ft swing taping on the axle end and after a few taps the axle will sit loose against the loosened nuts with all cones sweetly ready for removal. let it bounce till the cones are free
you can put your axle back in in whatever splines they fit generally, doesn't matter there and with fill plug somewhere handy as mentioned for fill up. Some axles have a pin and or threaded hole for a regular bolt, so then the required position.
They may have used silicone for a gasket, that worked fine for me for many years but others may use something different when available. The black ultra is pretty good stuff and doesn't take much. Surface just has to be clean n dry for a bit, a roll of paper towels will be handy.
Important the finer around us don't take kindly to the smell of 90 as I have found, beware!
good luck there
Floyd
https://www.google.com/search?q=axle+oil+drain+pan&oq=ax&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l2j69i60.2533j0j4&client=tablet-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=8chHOJsRbh5C_M%3A (https://www.google.com/search?q=axle+oil+drain+pan&oq=ax&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l2j69i60.2533j0j4&client=tablet-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=8chHOJsRbh5C_M%3A)
I just cut a piece of cardboard to fit up under the hub and made an oil ramp to run the oil out and into my oil drain pan which was sitting on the ground next to the tire.
Scott, with that wheel I would jack it up and check the the clearance on the hub bearing there is no telling what you may find
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 10, 2016, 04:17:15 AM
https://www.google.com/search?q=axle+oil+drain+pan&oq=ax&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l2j69i60.2533j0j4&client=tablet-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=8chHOJsRbh5C_M%3A (https://www.google.com/search?q=axle+oil+drain+pan&oq=ax&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l2j69i60.2533j0j4&client=tablet-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=8chHOJsRbh5C_M%3A)
An old bread pan will do this...or a piece of cardboard...or a folded up classifieds ad section of the Sunday paper...
I used to do that also. But now that cardboard is on the endangered list since we're running out of it, I got one of these a few years ago for about 10 bucks.
Kicker is, this isn't a bus thing with the hub. The hubs on trucks and buses are the same (except maybe Prevost). So this is a mechanic goofup.
They were conscientious about filling the tag and steer hubs. I am guessing they refilled the drive axles as well. They even stated that the inner seals were leaking so they opted to replace them. I concurred because I could see the oil leaking down the tires on the duals. So I think the one side was done by one of their kid mechanics and he failed to button things up.
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As a rule "pull a wheel - change the seal"
In your picture it appears the nuts ARE tight as the spring washers are flat. The cones are simply the wrong taper.
I don't think he gets but 4 of the spacers on his axle ? anyone want to speculate on the purpose of the spacers I have heard different reasons and never knew for sure and never took the time to figure it out
Far as I know, the cones are a locking mechanism for locking the axle to the hub. Once set, the cones compress around the stud, and keep the axle in place, even in the event of loss of nuts. That's why you have to smack the axle plate to release them for removal. They also center the axle shaft on the hub, and prevent the axle plate from moving and causing wear on the stud holes.
They are for retention the best I can see,but then you need to smack axles to turn loose even on the one that don't use the "dowel" as Rockwell calls it, axles come both ways bolts or wedges spacers I call them
So I have scoured the axle. I cannot see a fill plug anywhere. On my MCI 9 bus there was a fill plug. But there does not appear to be one on this one. What does that mean?
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Scott
I would pull the axle and check the bearings and retainer nuts. Obviously they pulled the Hub. The axel is the simplest of putting the job back together and they messed that up. A rear bearing failure could be catastrophic.
Rick
Quote from: Scott Bennett on July 13, 2016, 05:37:21 AM
So I have scoured the axle. I cannot see a fill plug anywhere. On my MCI 9 bus there was a fill plug. But there does not appear to be one on this one. What does that mean?
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They don't all have a fill or drain plug fwiw
I think you meant secured the axle :)
Safely take a look at the diff lube level for starters is what my next task always was.
have a good day there
Floyd
If there's no plug, you can fill the bottom of the hub while it is jacked up and at and angle. Then install the axle.
it's entirely likely there will be oil in the hub when you pull the axle. If so I wouldn't worry too much. If you have the hub at an angle, the majority or oil will stay in the hub and you'll be fine.
Time is obviously an issue with your build. Have you contacted the shop that originally did the work? They "should" come to your site and correct the issue with the axle cones and double check the wheel end nuts.
OK here's the update, the shop sent their mobile emergency mechanic and his truck out to the coach. He looked at the axle and determined that indeed things were not tightened quite properly. They were not completely loose but the cones were not seated. He did confirm that they did to fill the differential with oil and did fill the axles of as by leaning the coach and everything is good on that front. The mechanic that actually tighten down those axle nuts just didn't quite get the cones seated so they r replacing axle nuts and the cones with fresh ones and everything should be OK
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Sounds good. Evidently the shop has some integrity. Mistakes happen. How they are handled can be the determining factor. I like that that are willing to replace the cones and nuts, but I wonder if the studs also should be replaced.
they still need to "reseat" the studs....
All set and all done. Mobile mechanic came out and removed axle, reseated everything put it all back together with fresh cones nuts and studs added oil and all set. Ready to roll!
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I'm glad they made good and fixed it for you. In a perfect world, they would have done it right the first time and saved you and them a lot of hassle.
So it wasn't the wrong spacers just he didn't seat the cones before tightening right ?
I think the kid they had work on putting that side back in didn't seat them. They used the original spacers but just didn't get them right. After tweaking around with them he just got me new ones.
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