OK, today working on my electrical panel set up per previous post. All existing wires were traced and marked and found out that my two roof airs are wired with 14 ga. copper wire!! I believe these should be no less than 12 ga for safety and help prevent overheating. Anyhow taking off the connections on the AC units I see the wires are run through the overhead framing and only tape was used to coat the wires for extra protection from chaffing on the frame apparently. The entire ceiling is glued on to plywood or paneling or something!! Christ!! what to hell to do now is my dilema, I know what I have to do but this again is discouraging. Could sure overheat the wires on a hot day like today using both airs I am sure. So if I sound pissed, I am!! PO really screwed me good and I hope he sees all these post over the years. CRAPPPPPPPPPPP
you can never trust another converter with a used bus it seems. they cheat at the damnedest places such as this. I could easily had a fire or worse, you never know what you got until you have to repair or replace something that the PO owner did. Just my thought on this. Just pissed off too I guess.
Gary,
I was an electrician in a previous life and probably the safest thing you can do is to run your wire thru what they call BX cable as you can view here. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-100-ft-12-2-Solid-CU-BX-AC-Cable/202819636 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-100-ft-12-2-Solid-CU-BX-AC-Cable/202819636)
Or run it thru EMT Conduit here. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Allied-Tube-Conduit-1-2-in-EMT-Conduit-101543/100400405 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Allied-Tube-Conduit-1-2-in-EMT-Conduit-101543/100400405)
This would probably be the ultimate because even using a grommet can wear thru after time.
Using BX cable kind of sucks, dealing with the BX type connectors, but code requires it to be used in some cases where something could cut thru the cable and cause a shock hazard.
Regarding using extension cords to run wring as was mentioned in a recent thread has the same problems according to some folks, it too can chafe thru after a while, but my Eagle was wired that way and I have no plans on re-doing it.
Gary
I think that you are right in preferring at least 12 gauge wire for the AC's. However, 12 gauge is required for a 20 amp circuit. 14 gauge is okay for a 15 amp circuit. What size breakers do you have? If the AC's are running okay on 15 amp breakers, it may be alright. Are you able to check if the wires are actually getting hot?
I have no choice but to remove the ceiling in the front and back of bus. And as you suggested Gary, Thanks by the way, but run BX cable for safety. I just tired of all this crap.
No Lin I am unable to see if the wires get hot or not as I am installing new power panels etc. to have new system. But was hoping the wiring already installed was sufficient but that fell through as noted here. I can install any size breaker I need in my new box, have not installed them as yet, I just would never rest good knowing of this situation going through framing and burrs still exist in the hole where I can see. I know it will be impossible to pull new wires so I just have to bite the bullet and take it all down or where I have to and knowing my luck, I will have to take the whole freakin ceiling down. I need peace of mind after all this time of converting this bus.
Quote from: Gary LaBombard on June 23, 2016, 10:42:36 AM
I have no choice but to remove the ceiling in the front and back of bus. And as you suggested Gary, Thanks by the way, but run BX cable for safety. I just tired of all this crap.
No Lin I am unable to see if the wires get hot or not as I am installing new power panels etc. to have new system. But was hoping the wiring already installed was sufficient but that fell through as noted here. I can install any size breaker I need in my new box, have not installed them as yet, I just would never rest good knowing of this situation going through framing and burrs still exist in the hole where I can see. I know it will be impossible to pull new wires so I just have to bite the bullet and take it all down or where I have to and knowing my luck, I will have to take the whole freakin ceiling down. I need peace of mind after all this time of converting this bus.
Gary, if the 14 ga wires go to the right place, can you use them to pull the new, larger-gauge wires? One thing that might work (if there's too much friction to pull new wires with the old) is to pull a thin "fish"* wire into place when you pull out the 14 ga and then use the thin fish to pull your new 12 ga in. I hate to think of you having to remove all the ceilings etc. if you don't have to. BTW, will you need three-conductor wire (hot, neutral, ground) for this circuit?
(* Sometime you can rent or borrow a flat fish like a metal spring that works really well, it will slip into and around the places you need and they have a loop of the end that makes it easy to attach the wire you're pulling, and the loop helps the fish guide through corners, etc. Of course, if you have burrs and sharp corners, you'd only be putting new, expensive cable in a bad place so that might mean you have get in there. Sorry to hear this but it's good you're making it safe.)
i would certainly try a fish tape... with the current wires in place.. you may then be able to feed a non metallic conduit...
If the wire passes through holes in the ribs and/or makes turns, you are not likely to be able to pull new wire through whether Romex or BX. Redoing the ceiling will allow you secure the wires with no chafing points, and to check the quality of the insulation. Since corners might have been cut with the wiring, what are the odds the insulation is ideal? Remember the joy of a conversion is doing it, not going anywhere with it; that is just a bonus. ;D
As others have suggested use the previous wires for pulling either a new fishwire or new wire. If that fails, rather than pull the whole ceiling down, can you just cut an 1-3" wide slot down the ceiling to unveil the existing wire and then go back with some kind of decorative covering over that later? Decorative like a wide strip of stained wood, cloth covered wood, preglued kitchen shelf paper over wood in a complementary pattern, etc. If that isn't an option, then make a new tunnel of your own to run all new wire through and cover it decoratively. Would save you a ton of work if you can think of something like that. If you post pics, may be we can help think of something that will save you tons of work and further frustration.
Rob
Missouri
Don't make work for yourself that you don't need. The airs only pull 13 amps at the most, 14 wire is good for that. Nothing moves in an Eagle so the wires won't chafe, If it is stranded wire forget what I said. If it is solid will be fine.
Jack
My 15,000 BTU rooftop units are wired with 12 AWG wire to 20 amp breakers. Even the 20 amp breakers trip when it is 107 degrees in the desert,
My MCI has the same problem, my breakers trip when the A/C units are working hard too, but only when it is over about 105F outside. If you have a long run from your A/C unit to your breaker panel you may want to bump it up to 10 AWG wire so there is less resistance. It is not per code, but it is fine as long as you stick with a 20 AMP breaker. By increasing the size of the wire, it will also keep the wire from overheating as well.
But then again, if this becomes an ongoing issue, you may want to check the AMP draw on that line. I believe it should draw about 14A after it starts, but the problem it can draw up to 18A starting. And if there is still head pressure, i.e. if you shut it off then turn it right back on again, this can cause it to draw more than 20A thereby tripping the breaker. But then again, your mileage may vary depending on your unit.
Maybe a "real" electrician can step in here and correct me if I am wrong but has been my experience.
Gary did not say what size his A/C's are, but having 12 gauge wire gives an extra margin for starting-up amperage, and for safety.
Is there any way you could use the plastic surface mount conduit to run the new wire to the AC units
https://www.codale.com/index.jsp?path=product&part=3916 (https://www.codale.com/index.jsp?path=product&part=3916)
This way you could abandon the questionable wiring & not have to tear out anything to run new wiring.
The AC's tripping the breaker in extreme heat conditions is not merely a wire size issue. Though I would hope that they would continue to work at least past 110, there is a limit on how much heat they can deal with.
My units are 15,000 BTUs. Also trapping the wire in a very tight space will not let the heat dissipate if it does heat up, whereas running it in BX cable will let it breath a bit, but generally no steps are taken to not do this as many people wire their buses then blow in insulation all of the time. Wires are not supposed to get hot if they are sized properly but the 15,000 BTU A/C units push the limits of a 20A breaker in my opinion. But then this only happens when they first start up.
14 gauge may be perfectly OK depending on the length of the run, how far from the junction box to the panel?
14 gauge wire is rated for 15 amps. My 13.5 ac units will pull 15 amps on a hot day setting in the sun. Problem is...breakers are sized to deliver 80 % of the rating. 15 amp breaker will trip continually, 20 amp breaker will exceed the wire rating. Not a good situation.
Really a lot of great suggestions here which I appreciate. I want to think the 14ga will work but in my mine I will never stop worrying, that is one of my down falls. Look, how many guys DOUBLE Frame their bus like I did for instance?
I am sure the wire is run every which way and not in a straight line, Each 13,500 btu coleman Air Conditioner is about 15-20 ft. from the control panel. They each have heaters in them which I would never use anyhow. I am especially worried as the one hole I do see the wire pass through has burred and ragged edges that the PO just put extra tape on to protect them. I have not physically tried to pull any on the wires yet, was too pissed to think straight yesterday. Today a different day. Hopefully I can feel the wire start to pull through after disconnecting and then pull a fish tape through as I do to pull the new #12ga wire through.
I will probably take a day or so to do other projects before starting to pull on the wires but am not very optimistic at all. This has been quite a journey that is quickly now getting very very old just like me.
Thanks again for the suggestions, I will keep you posted on my final find and results. I just do not believe I would ever be comfortable thinking about the 14 ga wire though. I am a pissar.
Pulling the correct gauge wire and having the correct breaker is a wise choice.
Even if the AC draws 13 amps, that does not reflect the initial surge which is well over 25 amps. But if you are on poor quality shore power your 13 amps at 120Volts is going to be higher as voltage drops.
Dometic says 12 gauge wire minimum for a run of up to 24 ft,roof tops will draw 15 to 18 amps here on 1 of our mild summer days of 117*,all the roof top manufactures amp draw are based on 85* both Coleman and Dometic have told me that
The much bigger issue here is unprotected/poorly installed cabling through ragged metal holes in the framing.
The way many busnuts do not understand, or choose to ignore, neutral-ground bonding, if the right wire is cut through to contact the frame, the coach goes live, and nothing trips...
And electrocutes the co-pilot as she grabs the door from outside one rainy day...
Doubt you will find neutral-ground done correctly, if the PO couldn't install a cable properly...
Good for you, dig into it and make it right!
An idea, thinking out of the box... if the pulling fails, which I fear it will, you could run new cables up on the roof (suitable conduit blah blah blah) and drop them through to the inside somewhere convenient, if you don't want to carve into the ceiling... somewhat guerilla tactic, but could be done perfectly safely and in a timely fashion.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I do not know your complete setup but would think that running wire along the wall good be hidden relatively easily. That would mean the most visible surface route would be from the unit to the wall across the ceiling. Even for that, there could be a creative decorative way to hide it. In the long run, you might want to do something else, but for the immediate future you could go with what is easiest so the issue is non-threatening.
Or you can do it like the phone company used to do and just run the wires along outside the bus and tack them down every 8". That way they will also stay cool when the bus is moving. ;D
Quote from: Gary LaBombard on June 24, 2016, 04:51:58 AM
I will probably take a day or so to do other projects before starting to pull on the wires but am not very optimistic at all. This has been quite a journey that is quickly now getting very very old just like me.
Hey, we are the same age, and I have many miles left in me. We will both live longer if we both make real sure our wiring is safe. For kicks, stick a ground lead from a voltage tester into moist soil, and then touch the bus (when it is plugged in) with the other lead to see if you read anything. Do that after any electrical changes, and every so often in case something is chafing through. I have been surprised at the results on previous RV's, but not my buses, yet.
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on June 24, 2016, 11:19:18 AM
Or you can do it like the phone company used to do and just run the wires along outside the bus and tack them down every 8". That way they will also stay cool when the bus is moving. ;D
That must be where the expression "It looks tacky" comes from! ;D