I have been shopping for tankless water heaters for the new coach. I was all set to go with the Takagi, but just realized I can't run it on a normal 20# cylinder. Anyone have a recommendation? I don't want a large propane tank in the coach because I like the convenience of swapping tanks at Walmart etc.
I just had a weekend at a Christian camp in Idyllwild, Ca (very beautiful). The cabins had been changed to tankless water heaters. They had so much problem with them (gas supply, igniter, thermostats) that they switched all the cabins back to normal tank type. I would suggest you use a normal propane RV type water heater with electric stand by. Some are making tankless propane replacements.
I have 2-10gal electric water heaters (from Home Depot). One feeding into the next with the final water heater powered through the inverter for hot water going down the road. In the 22 years they have been in I've done virtually zero (except for draining once a year) to them. I like the set up so much I'm repeating on my truck. Good Luck, TomC
I second Tom's statement. I have a tankless propane water heater in my off grid desert house and I hate it, it has been nothing but grief. I am eventually going to replace it with a standard tank type rv heater.
We once had Paloma tankless heater, and it was okay. Of course, the benefit was unlimited hot water. But on the downside, it was pressure and flow dependent, so if the water pressure at the heater dropped, it could cut out. That wasn't a bit deal but worth noting. We really never had any other problem with it. We have a 10 gallon electric now and it's adequate.
Scott - Im kinda with Tom on this one. I think the tankless heater is going to use more fuel than you think it is and you will have the job of constantly replacing and managing the propane.
Lets say based on the following calculation of the amount of propane it takes to raise the temp of 1 gallon of water from 65 degrees to 95 degrees = .004 gallons of propane.
(1 gallon water * 8.4 lb/gallon water * (95 - 65) °F * 1 BTU/ lbm-°F * 1 gallon propane / 90,000 BTU * 100/70 = 0.004 gallons of propane)
So if you take a shower using 10 gallons of water your at .04 gallons of propane, wifey takes a shower, now your at .08 x 7 days your at .56 or half a gallon. That gives you roughly 8 weeks of showers on a 20lb tank. (20lb tank ~4.5 gallons)
Now take into consideration that you wash dishes, wash clothes, wash Emma. There is some more use. Then you have a propane heater in the bus. More use. Also - keep in mind that if the water in the tank is less than 65 degrees then you exponentially use more fuel to heat the water. Think what it would take to raise the temp of 40 degree water to 95 degrees and is your tankless heater designed to work at those low temps. You could be on the 4 week instead of 8 week plan in the winter.
Now, how do you know when you are going to run out of Propane? I can calculate exactly when that is going to happen. Itll be in the middle of January on the coldest day in Michigan when it just snowed 3' of snow overnight and you just jumped into the shower to warm up before you go outside to shovel out the door to the bus. And.... I know exactly when you are going to run flat on your propane tanks ;)
Im not saying dont do it, Id just do it as an add to an existing electrical hot water heater if you plan on carrying propane and are going to do some boondocking and dont want to run the generator. As much as you guys are hooked to a pole Id go to electrical first.
We have a 20 gallon sealand hot water tank that heats off the engine. After a days run (2+ hours of driving) We (all 6 of us) can all take a 5 minute Navy shower and have plenty of hot water. When hooked up at the campground we can take (3) 15 minutes of showers with hot water without the temp dropping. By the 4th shower its just a warm shower but it only takes about 20 minutes to heat up again.
Keep in mind that our tank heats to 160 degrees (190 off the engine) and we have a themistatic valve so a 20 gallon tank of hot water is like 40 gallons of hot water. Ive got the valve set at its lowest setting so the hot water is as hot as we like it without burning us and no need to add cold water.
Keep it simple my friend.
-Sean
heed the flow rate and required pressure warnings and consider your on board pump accordingly... it is not an easy selection...
Ok, so the new generation of tankless heaters seem to be great. Lot's a great reviews, our church campmeeting has over 6,000 people in attendance for 11 days this week and they are using Noritz tankless units in the shower trailers. They work flawlessly and trust me, they are getting a workout. That being said, I am wondering if the inconsistent water pressure in a coach situation as well as smallish propane tanks etc might present an issue. You guys are killing me. I hate the amount of electrical dependency I have in our current coach soon to be someone else's in another 5 days. So I was trying to offload it a little with a better efficiency a/c and propane hot water...but now you guys are inserting such a dose of reality that I am back to square one on this. More research....
Quote from: Scott Bennett on June 17, 2016, 09:21:55 AM
Ok, so the new generation of tankless heaters seem to be great. Lot's a great reviews, our church campmeeting has over 6,000 people in attendance for 11 days this week and they are using Noritz tankless units in the shower trailers. They work flawlessly and trust me, they are getting a workout. That being said, I am wondering if the inconsistent water pressure in a coach situation as well as smallish propane tanks etc might present an issue. You guys are killing me. I hate the amount of electrical dependency I have in our current coach soon to be someone else's in another 5 days. So I was trying to offload it a little with a better efficiency a/c and propane hot water...but now you guys are inserting such a dose of reality that I am back to square one on this. More research....
my biggest quandary with propane is it is not girl friendly...if you are always home then ok ...
if you select a good pump and have room for a pressure tank...
I had a Paloma and then an ecotemp, both very good thin and easy to hookup, both propane, the ecotemp has a model that runs off two "D" cell batteries, tow power the valve and digital thermostat, lvmci...
I don't know what all the hubbub is about I grew up with a Tankless Water heater because we was poor.
Our water heater developed a leak after about twenty five years ,and I let the gas company talk me into installing one of these tankless wonders. Absolutely the worst mistake I ever made .Well second worst mistake I ever made ,but we won't go there!!
Personally I like having a 6 gal rv water heater. More hot water = more water use. Less hot water= less used. Bigger fresh, and bigger grey tanks needed for longer showers. We can get 3 "navy" showers out of our 6 gal. Takes less time to re-heat also. We can boondock for 3 weeks on 100 gal fresh, 45 gal grey, 45 gal black. Rv water heater, propane, coach heat, propane, cooking, propane, fridge, propane, All run on 12V. Good batt bank, 2 hours of gennie use per day when boondocking.
10 Gal water heater = 15 gal shower. My grey tank would be full in 3 showers. Not for me.
I have another factor for you to consider: Propane can be dangerous, leaks can have devastating consequences. Many coaches are all-electric for that reason. Sure, many RV's have gas appliances, and they can be convenient when dry camping, but most RV's are built differently and have their tanks under the body with no enclosure. Considering the layout of both your MCI's with few windows and emergency exits, and lots of easily burned softwood, having the hazard of potential gas leaks is asking for trouble, in my opinion. ;)
I agree. Electricity is really safe. It can never hurt you like Propane....or can it? ;D
BTW, you don't need emergency exits if you have a Propane. Everything becomes an exit!!! :D
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on June 17, 2016, 05:36:49 PM
I agree. Electricity is really safe. It can never hurt you like Propane....or can it? ;D
It can, if you get creative and hook up the neutrals to the grounds; either you get electrocuted, or the sparks set off the leaking propane. ;D
The only two appliances I have that is propane is the furnace and stove. I also have a shut off solenoid on the tank controlled from inside so all gas is off when not in use. The tank is suspended from the floor with nothing below except the ground, so no possibility of gas accumulation. Good Luck, TomC
Our 4104 had a marine water heater with an engine coolant coil through it. Had hot water whenever we arrived and no electricity needed except if 2 or more days at same !location.
http://www.westmarine.com/water-heaters (http://www.westmarine.com/water-heaters)
Quote from: DoubleEagle on June 17, 2016, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on June 17, 2016, 05:36:49 PM
I agree. Electricity is really safe. It can never hurt you like Propane....or can it? ;D
Wow I just wonder how the Amish ever survived using all that propane ;D
how I would do it ...
A good tankless propane water heater ( min 85 % efficient ) with a 2 gal 120 volt electric hot water heater after the tankless before your supplies
this way there is no wait time for hot water and you have a back up system if 1 craps out
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rheem-Direct-Vent-LP-Tankless-Water-Heater-RTG-64DVLP-1-New-/391465010960 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rheem-Direct-Vent-LP-Tankless-Water-Heater-RTG-64DVLP-1-New-/391465010960) could not find the efficient %
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.rheem-point-of-use-2-gallon-electric-water-heater-with-6-year-warranty.1000792786.html (https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.rheem-point-of-use-2-gallon-electric-water-heater-with-6-year-warranty.1000792786.html)
best of both worlds and good quality
dave
I've been using a tankless Rinnai propane water heater at home for the last 5 years; been perfect and cheap to run. Love it.
There is nothing more simple and reliable then a straight (no heat exchanger) electric water heater. The cost of two new 10gal electric water heaters straight from Home Depot- about $550. How much is the replacement heating coil-about $20. When boon-docking, I usually run the generator in the morning to charge batteries, make coffee, and to heat water. Both water heaters running take about 45 minutes to heat from cold, or about 30 minutes when already warm. They stay sufficiently warm all day.
To combat warm up waste of water, on my kitchen sink, bathroom sink and shower, I've put in warm up valves. They are ball valves T'd into the hot water line just before the faucet valve. You turn on the warm up valve the water runs through the pipes to warm up and then returns to the tank-not wasting any water on warm up. Then when you feel the ball valve warm up, turn off the warm up valve and turn on the faucet. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on June 19, 2016, 09:09:32 AM
There is nothing more simple and reliable then a straight (no heat exchanger) electric water heater. The cost of two new 10gal electric water heaters straight from Home Depot- about $550. How much is the replacement heating coil-about $20. When boon-docking, I usually run the generator in the morning to charge batteries, make coffee, and to heat water. Both water heaters running take about 45 minutes to heat from cold, or about 30 minutes when already warm. They stay sufficiently warm all day.
To combat warm up waste of water, on my kitchen sink, bathroom sink and shower, I've put in warm up valves. They are ball valves T'd into the hot water line just before the faucet valve. You turn on the warm up valve the water runs through the pipes to warm up and then returns to the tank-not wasting any water on warm up. Then when you feel the ball valve warm up, turn off the warm up valve and turn on the faucet. Good Luck, TomC
Sounds like a clever idea to conserve water, but the ball valve (I am assuming) is under the sink and requires stooping to get to, and returns warm water to the main supply tank and not the water heater itself. If there was an electric actuated valve with a handy button up on top of the sink (or whatever) with a temperature gauge, that would make it more likely to be used.
There is nothing wrong with propane or natural gas it's the stupid things people do or don't do on installations that cause the issue not the propane/natural gas. Check all connections, check again after putting the fuel in the line check for leaks. Follow the codes, shut off the source when not in use. Safety, Safety, Safety !!!
Quote from: scanzel on June 20, 2016, 03:34:11 AM
There is nothing wrong with propane or natural gas it's the stupid things people do or don't do on installations that cause the issue not the propane/natural gas. Check all connections, check again after putting the fuel in the line check for leaks. Follow the codes, shut off the source when not in use. Safety, Safety, Safety !!!
and when the igniter goes bad, give your wife the confidence she needs to light the hot water heater and stove and furnace...at 20 degrees...
I have a Bosh propane tankless water heater, and an electric tank type in my bus, I rarely use the tankless becase Im usually plugged in to electric, but the tankless is a good option when you need it.>>>> John.