There seems to be a bit of soot coming out of my engine. Its always done this and I had just assumed it was from the muffler.
Since replacing the muffler its still putting out soot. Enough to cover the front bumper of our tow vehicle in a fine silt of soot.
Just wondering if this is normal and if not, what causes the engine to put out soot and what can I do to help prevent it.
Thanks Guys.
-Sean
Lack of air will cause sooting. Main culprit-dirty air filter. Next is lazy injectors with worn out tips not giving a sufficient spray pattern. Bad fuel modulator (mechanical engine), allowing black smoke on start up. I get sooting also-even with up exhaust. This is why 2 stroke engines are not used anymore.
Yet the next engine I believe to come out is a 2 stroke-but opposed piston engine by Achates engine company. They have a 3 cylinder that puts out 300hp and 1100 torque-so a 5 or 6 cylinder would be perfect for bus and truck. Opposed piston is minimum 20% more fuel efficient. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on May 23, 2016, 07:08:32 AM
Yet the next engine I believe to come out is a 2 stroke-but opposed piston engine by Achates engine company. They have a 3 cylinder that puts out 300hp and 1100 torque-so a 5 or 6 cylinder would be perfect for bus and truck. Opposed piston is minimum 20% more fuel efficient. Good Luck, TomC
The venerable Commer TS3 opposed-piston 3-cylinder diesel engine of the 1950s and 1960s only produced half as much power, but it ran cleanly and sounded great, sort of like a Detroit 53-series. I cannot recollect seeing much exhaust smoke from them, but after all these years my memory may be less than 100%. One neat thing about them was that they had only one crankshaft!
John
running cold can contribute to this also. the good news is that the only detriment is to your toad...maybe a bra :)
or be grateful you are not towing the Benz.... :o
He said he has a fine silt of soot on his toad. That's a lot of soot
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Don't just turn it down. Turn it down and out as far as you can.
Jack
Jack do you think he has the Jarra mentally in his engine.
The bigger the injectors the better.
lol miss the old guy
uncle ned
It's the fuel to air ratio thing, me I would pull the blower and check to see if the aftercooler has a buildup on the fins JMO
Yes the Commer had one crankshaft for opposed pistons. But because of the rocker connecting rods, horsepower output if limited to lower power outputs. Higher outputs have to use twin crankshafts. Good Luck, TomC
The 2-stroke Detroit requires a certain percentage of back pressure from the muffler in order to run right. Oversized injectors, a free-flowing muffler (no back pressure), high altitude all cause black soot if you know that otherwise the engine is running like new and not worn out. This is to add to what already has been mentioned.
--Geoff
I always assumed that the two-stroke didn't require back pressure, but did have a maximum back pressure rating. From everything I've read in all my diesel magazines, the less back pressure the better. But honestly I'm not a diesel mechanic, so I really don't know what is fact or fiction
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The back pressure thing usually applies to a natural engine. On turbo engines the turbocharger gives a nice back pressure. So running straight exhaust on a turbo engine usually decreases black smoke. Good Luck, TomC
From my experience, the less back pressure, the better. The exhaust gases need to get away from the combustion chambers as easily and quickly as possible. Also the turbo is more efficient without the back pressure of a muffler, or too small a tail pipe. So it comes down to how much noise you want to put out the exhaust pipe. Mine with turbo and resonator, is louder but tolerable, but runs a lot nicer and freer, and cooler, than with the muffler.
JC
The DD engineering bulletin # 134 explains the back pressure deal,but Sean is good with the 90 bend.I think his problem is the Farr air cleaner and it's location on a Eagle.I have replaced a few of those with a 1350 CFM ECO series filter and it made a big difference on a 6v92TA a little harder to change as the FARR on a Eagle is about as easy as it gets ;D
If you only let your engine associate with upper crust engines from rich neighboring coaches that will happen.
Oh sorry you said Sooty. I thought you said...... never mind!... ::)
Dave
Quote from: luvrbus on May 25, 2016, 07:14:44 AM
The DD engineering bulletin # 134 explains the back pressure deal,but Sean is good with the 90 bend.I think his problem is the Farr air cleaner and it's location on a Eagle.I have replaced a few of those with a 1350 CFM ECO series filter and it made a big difference on a 6v92TA a little harder to change as the FARR on a Eagle is about as easy as it gets ;D
Cliff - Do you have a part number for that filter?
https://www.donaldson.com/content/dam/donaldson/engine-hydraulics-bulk/catalogs/air-intake/north-america/F110027-ENG/light-dust/Air-Eco-&-Ecolight-07-2015.pdf (https://www.donaldson.com/content/dam/donaldson/engine-hydraulics-bulk/catalogs/air-intake/north-america/F110027-ENG/light-dust/Air-Eco-&-Ecolight-07-2015.pdf)
I don't have the part no with me, but here is a page off the Donaldson site.
You'll have to find one with the biggest cfm rating possible, while fitting physically in your space. I wish I had room in my engine compartment for the 1500 cfm Eco filter.
JC
every road in the Arctic was built with gravel that has a very high percentage of glacial silt. think silica. think wiping out rings.
There is a cloud of dust created by the wheels of everything carried by the wind further to everywhere...
Having said that, FARR's rectangle shaped filters were a critical aspect of longevity for critical pumps, compressors, and generators.
an indicator on a air cleaner housing doesn't care what's in it. when it's plugged... it's plugged.
the ECO toss can is the last thing I would replace a FARR with. infact. if you do, I might wish to own it if you were to scrap it...
They are an excellent filter system imo etc.
When I changed my air filter a few years ago (the old one's inside pleats were splitting) I used another Racor ECO-BC 094973002. It's rated for 1450 to 1750 CFM, more than enough for a 6V92. After I changed it I noticed more power, less smoke, and the turbo whistled louder and spooled up slightly quicker. There were no Racors of that size in stock anywhere, so Racor in Modesto CA made mine to order - that's better than buying one that's sat on a shelf for umpteen years getting brittle. I bought mine from Harbor Diesel in Long Beach CA: they had the lowest price at the time.
Remember, if an air filter splits internally you won't be able to see the damage unless you can easily look inside it (I made my air intake plenum easily removable for this reason), and a split filter won't show any restriction on the Filter Minder gauge. You could easily end up dusting your engine without realizing it.
John
The Farrs are fine for a stationary engine or on the fender of a truck but Eagle mounted those inside the engine compartment and they just don't get enough air the way they are mounted
Quote from: luvrbus on May 25, 2016, 01:50:07 PM
The Farrs are fine for a stationary engine or on the fender of a truck but Eagle mounted those inside the engine compartment and they just don't get enough air the way they are mounted
i agree after thinking on it.
i am just old school enough the believe tha the big fat round double elements found on cats and terex and almost every rock drill compressor was the best thing going.
Eco would be my first choice if i had oil bath...just not Baldwin.
had a Baldwin oil filter with a pin crack under the paint...never again.
definitely agreee with this :( You could easily end up dusting your engine without realizing it.
I cut open one of my Eco filters. It is very well made. Very sturdy. The pleats are glued to the center and the sides. It doesn't look like it would tear apart very easily. I was concerned about water getting into it during a rain storm. No longer. Looks like water could sit in there and not harm it. Much better than the filters I used to buy for the filter housing I had before, or any automotive air filter I have seen.
JC
Quote from: lostagain on May 25, 2016, 06:59:43 PM
I cut open one of my Eco filters. It is very well made. Very sturdy. The pleats are glued to the center and the sides. It doesn't look like it would tear apart very easily. I was concerned about water getting into it during a rain storm. No longer. Looks like water could sit in there and not harm it. Much better than the filters I used to buy for the filter housing I had before, or any automotive air filter I have seen.
JC
were you not privvy to the Technomadia ECO filter posts last year ?
An easy way to see if your air filter is big enough is to plumb in a resettable filter minder air restriction gauge. I put one on my 05 just to monitor the air filter and found out that with a new filter the gauge went into the yellow range. I added another air filter and now it stays in the green range except when the filter gets clogged.
Wayne
ECO is a Parker filter the other manufactures like Donaldson,Wix,Baldwin,Farr and others are licensed to manufacture the ECO series.I have used the ECO for 25 years made by Donaldson and Wix I never had a problem with a ECO series filter IMO and like JC I think it's the best filter on the market for a turbo engine
No I didn't see anything by Thechnomania about Eco filter. What was it about?
JC
jHe had an eco filter, I think made by Baldwin, come apart, ingested, and ruined an engine. Can't recall why, I remember discussion that it might have been a uni-directional filter installed with the airflow the wrong way, or it might have gotten wet. It was an instant disaster. I have a giant ECO Donaldson, with 5" in and out, attached directly to the input of the turbo.
Replacing the FARR Air filter today, I looked at it this AM and noticed there is the intake that feeds into a curved part of the box before it hits the filter and in that part of the box it looks like its supposed to be a 2nd filter maybe?
But it was about 15 layers of metal screen (Slightly rusted screen) that just sat inside that part of the air filter. Thats gotta be a big chunk of restriction. If I held all that screen up to my mouth I think I'd suffocate. I took 14 of them out and left one. I'm sure its supposed to be a washable filter to block larger particles from hitting the main filter.
Is anyone familiar with this? I'll take pics later when I have the new filter and get back to the bus.
thanks.
-Sean
Quote from: Seangie on May 26, 2016, 10:51:24 AM
Replacing the FARR Air filter today, I looked at it this AM and noticed there is the intake that feeds into a curved part of the box before it hits the filter and in that part of the box it looks like its supposed to be a 2nd filter maybe?
But it was about 15 layers of metal screen (Slightly rusted screen) that just sat inside that part of the air filter. Thats gotta be a big chunk of restriction. If I held all that screen up to my mouth I think I'd suffocate. I took 14 of them out and left one. I'm sure its supposed to be a washable filter to block larger particles from hitting the main filter.
Is anyone familiar with this? I'll take pics later when I have the new filter and get back to the bus.
thanks.
-Sean
sounds like a user engineered upgrade attempt to me...never seen anything other than the filter in the intake stream...
Here are the pictures of that additional screen -
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160527%2F174eb3badc7fabe10020da9968dd9d16.jpg&hash=e87ea5d168db4e35ad3e05a3673d66f140869d29)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160527%2Ff1a17d4eaab91552ba232ae81df00103.jpg&hash=23506f4fdc70a99b673ff4db494392962e98c95a)
And here is the air intake. All these screens were in this air intake before the air gets to the filter.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160527%2F32e86d157f7de00c4c0b6c3aeb1e2f34.jpg&hash=026197b5b5e8de9292172cda312c1738ac1b8eb1)
Ive since taken them out, left one for good measure and have replaced the air filter. Hoping this helps with my sooty smoke. Ill let you know if theres an improvement.
-Sean
ah yes... i do now recall. those once upon a time were a corrugated mesh. i have seen them on stationary units. they were normally cleaned in solvent and replaced.
i think one piece is as effective as the others. a bug and bird stop if you will.
scratching my old head further.... those screens were always in the filter housing cover... the cover being a rectangle about 12 x 24...
That's a lot of screen. I would imagine that's going to help. I wish you'd stop your quest for more power....soon even my 8v92 will be slower than your 6v92. And we already know my 9 is a dog compared to your eagle. You're killing me bro.
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So the removal of the screen and the new air filter made a huge difference.
Bus drives better than it ever has.
Scott - Im getting a 36.28 on the quarter mile. What are you getting?
One issue though is that its still putting out smoke the whole time. I can still laydown a smoke screen at the start especially here in Santa Fe at 7k feet. But Ill see smoke coming out even when Im up to speed.
Im thinking a leaky injector. Especially because I notice more smoke at start up after the bus has been sitting than if I leave it for a few hours.
Thanks guys for all the feedback.
-Sean
Quote from: Seangie on May 27, 2016, 04:04:44 PM
Scott - Im getting a 36.28 on the quarter mile. What are you getting?
-Sean
Whoa. Not to brag, ok I'll brag, I ran a 26.6 quarter mile at 48.91 mph. And I had to shift. And no turbo. No slicks, either. Ha! Let it begin!!
Quote from: OneLapper on May 27, 2016, 06:18:50 PM
Whoa. Not to brag, ok I'll brag, I ran a 26.6 quarter mile at 48.91 mph. And I had to shift. And no turbo. No slicks, either. Ha! Let it begin!!
Mark - Yeah and your bus weighs 22k pounds fully loaded ;)
Im in Vegas until next Friday but Ill see if I can get a legit quarter mile in and see where it lands. Ill use Ulysses Speedo to prove it. Ill start a new post.
-Sean
Quote from: Seangie on May 27, 2016, 06:25:45 PM
Mark - Yeah and your bus weighs 22k pounds fully loaded ;)
Im in Vegas until next Friday but Ill see if I can get a legit quarter mile in and see where it lands. Ill use Ulysses Speedo to prove it. Ill start a new post.
-Sean
Make that 22,500!
I'm using Speedometer xPro. I'll see if I can post the screen shot
A new sport is born - bus drag racing! We need a NHRA class designation.
i would not condemn the injector until i checked things out closer to sea level. the finest my bus ever ran was in Death Valley... my motorcycle thought it was the bee's knees... it begged me to stay :)
ps The Al-Can Hwy can consume 2 air cleaner elements in one trip ... one way.
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 27, 2016, 08:29:12 PM
i would not condemn the injector until i checked things out closer to sea level. the finest my bus ever ran was in Death Valley... my motorcycle thought it was the bee's knees... it begged me to stay :)
ps The Al-Can Hwy can consume 2 air cleaner elements in one trip ... one way.
Thanks Don. We are planning that trip possibly next summer. Ill have to start making a parts list to bring with me.
Ill have to take a look at the smoke level once we get closer to the coast.
Should injectors be "serviced" every so many miles? And how many miles would that be?
-Sean
Quote from: Seangie on May 28, 2016, 04:43:52 PM
Thanks Don. We are planning that trip possibly next summer. Ill have to start making a parts list to bring with me.
Ill have to take a look at the smoke level once we get closer to the coast.
Should injectors be "serviced" every so many miles? And how many miles would that be?
-Sean
My experience is this. they either work or they don't , or they are stuck.
you can, and should short each injector ( wear your Sunday best)... hold the plunger down with a big heavy duty #4 screw driver you can lean on...... if the motor "changes sound" the injector is good...
new injectors might make a 3% improvement. or lighten your wallet $600.00 in parts.
my 8v71 runs the worst between Albuquerque and Flagstaff taking back roads to SLC to Idaho Falls... maybe 2.5 mpg from Bishop up through Tioga Pass west Yosemite...or east of any ways..they need more air than fuel :)
Quote from: Seangie on May 27, 2016, 04:04:44 PM
One issue though is that its still putting out smoke the whole time. I can still lay down a smoke screen at the start especially here in Santa Fe at 7k feet.
Sean -I think I may have figured out your problem.
But you're going to have to call me to get the answer, 'cause we haven't talked in awhile! ;D
RJ
If the little guy has 9G90 or 9A90 injectors they smoke,give them more air ? you have a boost gauge it would be interesting to know what the boost is
Quote from: luvrbus on May 29, 2016, 06:50:12 AM
If the little guy has 9G90 or 9A90 injectors they smoke,give them more air ? you have a boost gauge it would be interesting to know what the boost is
Cliff - Ive got 9F80 injectors. Im sure air is the biggest part of my problem.
Id love to have me some gauges.
Currently I have - Temp, Oil Pressure, Air and fuel gauges.
Speedometers in my phone and I just listen for the RPMs.
I feel like Han Solo flying the Millenium Falcon most of the time. Tapping on the gauges and sometimes having to jump under the dash to wiggle wires to get them to work.
Id love to have boost and pyrometer. That would round out the most important ones.
Most days Im just happy when I can get in the drivers seat and it starts up and Im driving down the road not covered in oil and soot.
Its hard to find time to work on the bus as Ive been working alot lately. Especially when fulltiming. Its usually just the most important things that get taken care of.
-Sean
Most days I'm just happy when I can get in the drivers seat and it starts up and Im driving down the road not covered in oil and soot.
Its hard to find time to work on the bus as I've been working a lot lately. Especially when full-timing. Its usually just the most important things that get taken care of.
Aren't you glad it's 2 stroke Eagle. :)