EDIT: I still don't have drivers heat. Gate valves are open, I pushed open the valve under the drivers seat (attached to the push pull cable)...and I've added coolant and bled air via the schrader valve on the heater core...am I missing something?
While I wait for the radiator repair shop to fix our drivers heater core, I'm taking Sean shanks advice and seeing if I can tap into the coolant lines and t off so I can have heat in other locations of the coach while driving down the road. I have the drivers floor pulled at the moment and can get to both heater core lines but my concern is I don't know the flow direction. Which one is supply and which one is return? Also how would the coolant flow through my teed lines? Will I even have flow? Or will the hot coolant just bypass where I teed in? I guess I need a little lesson in thermodynamics.
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Run the coolant through the heater core with the fan on, and check the temperature of both lines, the hotter one will be supply.
With the big heater core removed and capped, and the driver's heater core having much smaller lines, the water pump will be making some pressure in the hot line that you should be able to take advantage of, without further pump additions.
If you start adding a bunch of T's, all bets are off....
The pipes are a straight run from the back, sneak a peak from the engine room to see which side the hot enters the tunnel?
Also a great time to plan/review the location of a coolant boiler in the system. PO tapped mine inline to the big hot pipe in a bay.
It can act as a heat booster, engine pre-heater, and make interior heat when parked the same way as going down the road. Another layer in the heating plan? Another redundancy?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Ok so if I merely have one T off the main lines and run maybe one or two toe-kick radiators off of that line I should
Be good?
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Quote from: Scott Bennett on May 17, 2016, 09:19:25 AM
Ok so if I merely have one T off the main lines and run maybe one or two toe-kick radiators off of that line I should
Be good?
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were i you i would seek advice from a heating contractor... see here and contemplate... with feeds and returns up and down you could heat bays too. i would consider a booster pump also based on my readings of your lifestyle...Monoflo...
http://www.comfort-calc.net/monoflo_system.cfm (http://www.comfort-calc.net/monoflo_system.cfm)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.comfort-calc.net%2FPiping%2FVenturi_Tee_Flow.JPG&hash=964e0788e7660752d2a0ded723b8382f61a1ec86)
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FAQ_attachments/venturi_fittings.pdf (http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FAQ_attachments/venturi_fittings.pdf)
Interesting. This dealt exactly with my concerns. Ugh. Complicated. Thanks so much for posting his
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Quote from: Scott Bennett on May 17, 2016, 11:06:40 AM
Interesting. This dealt exactly with my concerns. Ugh. Complicated. Thanks so much for posting his
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it is actually the most cost effective way to service two seperate stories ie basement/living space.
privided there is sufficient flow.
ps the shorter the verticals the better.
it works, but i have seen some really long installs with multiple 90's that worked.
To get the full benefit of the heat from the engine, heat exchanges need to be looped teeing off a line doesn't work good,your defroster is in a loop
Scott -
IMHO, for this project you're considering, I would tap into the return lines going back to the engine. I wouldn't tap the supply line, because I'd want as much heat as possible for the defroster first.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: RJ on May 17, 2016, 02:14:49 PM
Scott -
IMHO, for this project you're considering, I would tap into the return lines going back to the engine. I wouldn't tap the supply line, because I'd want as much heat as possible for the defroster first.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
GOOD IDEA ;D ;D ;D
Yeah good thinking on that one. Still stumped on an issue here. I got my heater core back completely repaired for $80. Happy. Just plumbed it back in, added coolant, pressed the Schrader air bleed valve until air in Heater core was purged with opened gate valves. Heater core isn't getting hot. Or warm. Gate valve piping on Both sides of valve underneath floor hatch (upper gate) is hot Both sides of gate. The lower gate inside the curbside engine bay door, the pipe is only hot on the engine side not the right (coach) side. It's opened all the way. They both feel like they are working. I don't think it's broken. I opened the valve under the drivers seat in the spare tire bay (the one with the cable that goes to the drivers pull valves next to the seat). The thermostatic water valve in the luggage bay has its wiring disconnected and the air line to it pinched with a zip tie. Could this be the issue? Is there a valve missing somewhere?
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Did I miss that your auxiliary heater pump is working?
Scott,
On my 4905, I took that thermostatic valve out of the loop, and put the factory booster pump back in the circuit. BUT----I still don't have mine fixed either, and the driver heat/defrost only takes the edge off the bitter cold and damp w/o any other heat.
Steve
You probably have air bubbles still in the system. When you capped the old main heater core pipes you had to evacuate all liquid from the pipes in that area in order to be able to solder the caps on. You need to bleed further back down the line to get the air out. It might have been better to have used threaded caps with a bleeder valve or drain valve involved. It's not too late to redo the caps, it might be the easiest solution if there is no where else to bleed the pipes.
Center valve above tranny is supply.
Right side (passenger) is return.
Your return valve may be broken or you have an air lock. I'm betting on broken stem in the return valve.
Not sure what you're referring to on the driver valve. There should be a 1/4 turn valve in the stainless below the left switch panel. It is connected in the line below the electrical panel. Maybe yours is set up a bit different than mine.
why not ? ... ;D
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finspectapedia.com%2Fheat%2FMaid_O_Mist_Air_Vents_No_67s.jpg&hash=4950d597d5986ecb36685244da39624ac2cfe3f5)
Craig, thanks for confirming the supply and return. Supply seems to be open just fine. Pipe is hot on downstream side of gate. Return is another issue. Pipe is cold upstream of gate. I scoured your site and saw the drama you went through to replace the gate valve. Yuck. But you said yours were spinning nonstop. Mine unscrew and stop just as they should. I can feel slight resistance and I honestly believe they are working but I guess I can't be sure unless I heat the joint and remove the valve. Oh Joy. To confirm, the thermostatic valve in the front luggage bay that has two air lines and two wires going to it is "normally open" without voltage correct? So if the wires are disconnected it should be open? What about the air lines? Does this valve even play a role in the drivers heat? I know it is an on off valve that helped regulate the main large center heater core....but I assume it can't actually shut off flow to the drivers heat?
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Craig, in my 102C3 (bus in question) I have a pull cable on the drivers floor for heat. This is attached to a valve in the spare tire bay that is in line of the heater core tube.
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on mine ... the heat system is still stock and the drivers heat blows hot for a short time then it cools down . always done this ? then I turn on the main heat blower fan and the heat comes back to the defroster again as well as the main system . I turn off the main blower fan as it is to HOT then after a short time the defrost fan cools down again ( about 15 - 20 min. ) and I start the cycle all over again . now I only need to do this when it is really really cold out ( like -20 c or colder ) above that temp I get enough heat out of the defrost by itself . I think it is because there is no circulation pump for the defroster system
hope this helps
dave
Dave, I think you're right especially since the water will go towards least resistance...in your case your main cabin heater core....larger tubes larger radiator, but mine is removed and the large tube lines capped so the only flow should be through the defroster. Now someone asked me if the circulating pump was removed...I don't even know if I have one. Where would it be located?
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By design, the driver's heater/defroster should provide unlimited heat, on demand, controlled by the valve beside the driver.
The defrost heater core should be able to have unlimited flow of hot coolant, regardless of the coach heat configuration, turned on or off, or whether it has been removed or not.
It is plumbed in parallel to the coach heater core.
In Scott's bus, the control is a vertical plunger mounted on the floor to the left of the driver's seat, with a cable to a valve down below. (In the older buses, the valve is down low in the left side panel and the handle is twisted 90 degrees by the driver)
As long as the defroster/driver's heat lines have not been messed with,
and the removal of the coach heater core has taken place beyond/inside the two T's to supply and return,
the control valve for the coach heat, mounted in the curb side baggage bay, should not interfere,
as it does not block the flow returning from the front.
These MCI coaches don't have an aux coolant pump, the engine water pump does it all.
I concur, I expect you have an airlock, no doubt, a big one, which will require some lengthy opening of the vent on the front heater core. Have a suitable apparatus and storage to collect the coolant you have to blow out to clear this.
And you'll be chasing air out it again, once you get it functioning to some degree.
Hopefully, with the supply side purged, the air on the return side will be pushed through...?
Confirm the cable is fully opening the valve under the driver.
As for adding toe kicks, I would be plumbing them from supply to return, not from supply to supply. You won't get any flow unless the driver's valve is open. Each heater core should be parallel to one another, not parallel to the supply pipe, and in series with anything else....
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Scott, I just had my valves apart to relocate the return line and I thought they were opening completely up but they wasn't, They felt like it when turning the handle but it took a little more force to get past that tight spot and they opened completely up. Just a thought worth a quick check. Good luck Jason
Quote from: jmblake on May 18, 2016, 12:08:50 PM
Scott, I just had my valves apart to relocate the return line and I thought they were opening completely up but they wasn't, They felt like it when turning the handle but it took a little more force to get past that tight spot and they opened completely up. Just a thought worth a quick check. Good luck Jason
Jason, were your valves the gate-type with flat wedges?
Yes they were gate valves, I asume they were original ???
That accounts for the sticking and the uneven pressure needed to open or close, but they do allow for good flow when fully open. Debris in the coolant can interfere with it when it closes and the wedge can get stuck in the channel.
Thanks guys. The return gate hasn't convinced me it's working yet. I'll have to keep working on the possible air lock.
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Scott
what type of heating system are you putting in when parked ?
dave
Quote from: Scott Bennett on May 18, 2016, 09:48:38 PM
Thanks guys. The return gate hasn't convinced me it's working yet. I'll have to keep working on the possible air lock.
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the more flow. the easier to remove air... can you plumb in a temporry external pump..similar in function to a fuel primer ?
Dave, propane furnace. Update, I drove the coach around for about 35 minutes and the airlock finally yielded and I now have insane heat to the dash heater core. I can't even leave my hand on the heater core it's plenty hot. Now I'll add coolant to the system via the filler and I should be set. Happy as can be :) Dave I'll be purchasing a small 40,000 BTU high efficiency apartment furnace for the coach. 96-98% efficient with variable speed blower. Perfect for the coach.
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if the price is not too much more you might want to go with a 60 000 btu unit as a little over kill .
in the new coach it has a aqua - hot diesel fired system and works ok , but if I get pissed off with the smell and the noise I might install a propane furnace in the middle bay and use tinfoil 3/4 " board to make a trunk run from front to back for hot air vents with a return or 2 from above . in todays world I think a high efficient propane house furnace is the way to go . but for now I will stay with the aqua -hot system that is there now
dave
Hey Dave in our MCI nine we had a 30,000 BTU furnace for a short while and that used to roast us completely out of the coach. Even on the coldest Michigan winters. But the new coach is insulated even better I do not think we will need anything more than 40,000 BTU. But the RV propane furnaces are horrifically inefficient. So never going there again
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Quote from: sledhead on May 22, 2016, 06:46:57 AM... in todays world I think a high efficient propane house furnace is the way to go . but for now I will stay with the aqua -hot system that is there now
dave
From what I've seen of modern house furnaces (efficiency, etc.) that sounds like a good plan. Do you have a website to illustrate the kind, model, features etc. of ones that you're thinking about? Thanks.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on May 22, 2016, 08:01:41 AM
From what I've seen of modern house furnaces (efficiency, etc.) that sounds like a good plan. Do you have a website to illustrate the kind, model, features etc. of ones that you're thinking about? Thanks.
anything that would come standard in an atypical 14 wide "mobile" home.
trailer trash ... you know, those people two steps above bus nuts in the social order... :)
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 22, 2016, 08:17:05 AManything that would come standard in an atypical 14 wide "mobile" home.
trailer trash ... you know, those people two steps above bus nuts in the social order... :)
"Two steps"?? Yeah, don't we wish - not even throwing in the factor of "dubbah-waahds" around here.
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 22, 2016, 08:17:05 AManything that would come standard in an atypical 14 wide "mobile" home.
Here's just one, from Suburban --
http://www.airxcel.com/suburban/products/furnaces/sfq-series (http://www.airxcel.com/suburban/products/furnaces/sfq-series)
I like this part:
"SF-FQ Models are designed for interior serviceability with a front (inside) gas connection and only a small vent terminal on the coach exterior, permitting installation up to 9 inches from the wall. Since no exterior access door is required, the SF-F is aesthetically appealing and a more economical installation choice.
All SF Models also feature quiet, multi-ported stainless steel burners, sealed forced-draft combustion, automatic direct spark ignition and low amp draw. Cut-out size: 7-1/2" H x 17" W x 20" D."
The overall unit size is about the size of an ordinary drawer. Power draw is 9 Amp @ 12v.
more like this...
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Kelvinator-80-AFUE-45-000-BTU-Upflow-Horizontal-Residential-Natural-Gas-Furnace-KG7SA045C-23A/206511887 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Kelvinator-80-AFUE-45-000-BTU-Upflow-Horizontal-Residential-Natural-Gas-Furnace-KG7SA045C-23A/206511887)
like this
https://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453069463 (https://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453069463)
they have a 40,000 btu unit for a little less money but I think it is the same size ( w x h x d )
should fit in a bay with the duct work just under the floor
dave
Quote from: sledhead on May 22, 2016, 01:45:36 PM
like this
https://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453069463 (https://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453069463)
they have a 40,000 btu unit for a little less money but I think it is the same size ( w x h x d )
should fit in a bay with the duct work just under the floor
dave
Oh, yeah, bays ... yeah, I've heard that some of y'all have those. :)
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on May 22, 2016, 03:12:05 PM
Oh, yeah, bays ... yeah, I've heard that some of y'all have those. :)
mine is in a closet...above bays, the radius of my curb side roof (bare metal)...forms 180 degrees of my duct..the air handler for my AC also...
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 22, 2016, 05:07:05 PMmine is in a closet...above bays, the radius of my curb side roof (bare metal)...forms 180 degrees of my duct..the air handler for my AC also...
Yeah, I had seen a couple of them that said that the were designed that they could be coupled with (sharing thermostat, ducting, etc.) with AC. For the price and performance, they're pretty impressive. How many BTU's is yours?
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on May 22, 2016, 05:40:19 PM
Yeah, I had seen a couple of them that said that the were designed that they could be coupled with (sharing thermostat, ducting, etc.) with AC. For the price and performance, they're pretty impressive. How many BTU's is yours?
i am all electric, furnace is 12kw, 40k BTU, my AC is 3T. 220v.
But the space and "principles" are the same :)
i prefer to burn diesel than search for propane during a power outage :)
The rest of my circuits are shared on a pass thru inverter. (except my 110v 20 gallon hot water heater)
my system was designed for use in high rise apartment buildings. installed new in 1990.
was adequate for George Strait.
see First Co Dallas TX.
Don, your setup intrigues me. What size is your genset? And do you even have a battery bank?
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And what do you do when parked on the pole? 50amp service is only 12,000 watts so when your furnace is full bore how do you run other things?
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Quote from: Scott Bennett on May 23, 2016, 07:30:02 PM
And what do you do when parked on the pole? 50amp service is only 12,000 watts so when your furnace is full bore how do you run other things?
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My pass thru.share inverter 3kw Xantrex Freedom Marine services a sub panel for all circuits except AC 220v Heat 220v and hot water 110v
the gen is 12 KW. I very seldom use it. the inverter has two echo chargers. one serves the grp 31 Gen start battery...my ooops battery. but i still have jumper cables and a vehicle for major oops :) which i have never needed.
with a Todd auto transfer switch.
80% of all interior lites are 12v Thinlites fluoresent, (with the onboard inverter boards)
My batteries are combined start house. 2 8D AGM. ( I could have more) my needs are refrigeration basically overnite. i must run my gen 2-3 hours daily in National parks to keep my ice cream the way I like it.
I am not a long term boon docker but have spent 1-2 weeks at the Grand Canyon, Death Valley etc. without a pole. BUT I do places like DV in October and GC in May...
180 amp engine alternator, and 130 amp Inverter DC charger. essentially my 12v needs are serviced by the batteries. all of the wall outlets TV's refer,microwave Sealand stove top are either inverter or pass thru...I have never looked at my remote and seen less that 5amps invert.
Sean the yacht guy did a write up here ( I had a link...) where he said if he had it to do over he'd have gone with a single battery bank.
Mine has been in operation since the mid 90's and I have owned it and full timed (since 2003) about 50% stationary and 50% migratory wanderer. in that time frame the OEM batteries (wets) were replaced 2007 (wets) and in 2012 I put in the AGM's
Tomorrow I can pencil out a sketch, if you are interested.
PS ok I fibbed exagerated, uhm took a wild guess...but i did just now actually dig out the data...
MY heat is truly rated 10.5 KW at 240v AC
and 7.5 KW at 208v. so depending on the pole voltage, it is a true # inside that rating. i believe i am currently on 220v +/- 2v
http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/kW_to_BTU.htm (http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/kW_to_BTU.htm)
but, i did travel from Alaska to Arizona in October thru the Yukon and had no uncomfortable minutes. sub freezing is easy.
further. my inverter has been fed 110v from some source at least 95% of the last 10 years. i had to replace my original inverter in 2007, the old trace remote was wired (comm/control) with ribbon cable and a mouse chewed on it and the diodes in the inverter succumbed a horrible demise...hence that inverter died. i do carry a spare inverter. a 2kw trace old school.
should have left my cat home...
Interesting. Pretty incredible setup! I'm inoressed
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