Recently, someone decided they needed my start batteries worse than I so now I have to replace them. I had 8d batteries but I'm having problems finding any that don't have both posts on the end. My local truck parts jobber suggested type 31 or 4d. The bus is a MCI MC5 with an 8V71. Any suggestions?
I converted my start batteries long ago to two size 31 batteries (Interstate 925cca each). 31 batteries are the most popular battery in the trucking industry with most over the road sleeper trucks running 4 (12v system). The 2-31's I have start my 8V-71 just fine. Course if I need some help, I have a jumper relay that I can also tie my 2-8D Lifeline deep cycle batteries. I have started the bus on just the deep cycle batteries when the starting batteries went south. You'll love the weight difference between the 8D and 31. Trucks used to also use 8D batteries for starting. But because of the weight, also went with 31's. Good Luck, TomC
If you search around the forum you'll find plenty of us are more than happy with our group 31 batteries. They work just fine. If you aren't using your over the road a/c or heat they really are plenty for our needs
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It all about starting reserve it has nothing to do with AC or heating Eagle has used 3-group 31 since 1980 with factory HVAC, all the 24 volt buses made today use 4 group 31 batteries.I prefer the 8D myself less connections and the price for 2 -8D's will cost the same as 4-31's,the 8D's are heavy suckers through.
You can probably get away with 2-31's for starting with a mechanical engine but for a DDEC engine I would want the reserve myself
I changed from two 8Ds to two Group 31s a year ago. NAPA has them for just over $100 for AAA members (and we're all AAA members, aren't we?). Just bear in mind that they usually have two 3/8" threaded studs, so you may need to crimp new lugs onto your cables. And because you're in Michigan, where I've been told that it sometimes gets slightly cool in the winter, having a way to connect your house batteries to the starter could be a Good Idea - Group 31s have much less Reserve Capacity than 8Ds.
John
For the sake of not changing cables, 8D's would be simplest. They are still available, but you have to hunt for them. NAPA should be able to get them, or Tractor Supply. They seem to only last about three years and you have to watch the water levels, but they do have a lot more reserve.
::)... seriously.. 3 years ?
My 8d's have averaged 6.5 years. They have lived on a 3KW inverter with a 130 charger. 24/7/365 since 2004. whether on the pole or running my 12KW gen or charging off the 200 amp engine (belt driven) alternator.
MY rig has combined house start system.
my gen has it's own battery with an echo charge off the inverter/charger.
even on a 50 amp pole my inverter always produces at least 5 amps because that's how my sub panel is wired,
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 17, 2016, 10:43:38 AM
::)... seriously.. 3 years ?
My 8d's have averaged 6.5 years. They have lived on a 3KW inverter with a 130 charger. 24/7/365 since 2004. whether on the pole or running my 12KW gen or charging off the 200 amp engine (belt driven) alternator.
MY rig has combined house start system.
my gen has it's own battery with an echo charge off the inverter/charger.
even on a 50 amp pole my inverter always produces at least 5 amps because that's how my sub panel is wired,
I get 5 to 8 years from a set of 8D's but they don't like to sit discharged I found out
Quote from: luvrbus on May 17, 2016, 11:46:23 AM
I get 5 to 8 years from a set of 8D's but they don't like to sit discharged I found out
My three year experience is from not charging them often enough when not in use, yes, they do not keep well unless they have a trickle charge on them.
Try a Battery Warehouse if there is one in the area. When you say end, are you talking on top end or end end? Mine used to be end end, but when I replaced them, I went to top end. (posts) It is going to depend whether you go with 8d's simple or switching to 31's, which will incur added expense of cable modification and relay and associated wiring if desired. You could also go with 4d's which are a little smaller and lighter than the 8d's with a little less capacity. I would prefer to order the 8 d's as they should be fresh and not filled till they come in If they have them in stock and already filled, they may have been sitting around awhile. My 8d's are Interstates btw.
I have had very good luck (and saved a ton of cash) seeking AGM blems from DEKA East Penn... call ahead :)
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We made the switch form 8d to group 31's about three years ago, and I can't tell the difference. The caveat would be that we are not in a very cold climate and use a block heater when it is cold. 4d's are another alternative too. I wonder if anyone here who has changed to group 31's has ever been known to change back. That would be a good gauge of satisfaction. It's sort of like comparing the number of guys that switched to automatic transmissions (lots) to the number that threw away an Allison for a Spicer (0).
Well it looks like my local Interstate Battery dealer has what I need. I bought my last set from there so they just looked up what I got then. Let the cash register ring.
Quote from: Lin on May 17, 2016, 01:56:05 PM
We made the switch form 8d to group 31's about three years ago, and I can't tell the difference. The caveat would be that we are not in a very cold climate and use a block heater when it is cold. 4d's are another alternative too. I wonder if anyone here who has changed to group 31's has ever been known to change back. That would be a good gauge of satisfaction. It's sort of like comparing the number of guys that switched to automatic transmissions (lots) to the number that threw away an Allison for a Spicer (0).
I went back to 8D's so did Paul Lawry (Dreamscape) he likes the 8D's better also
Good to know. Did you have a problem with the group 31's? Was it on a 71 or a 92? Electronic or mechanical?
On the 4104, we used the two 8d's as our house batteries including our Suburban propane furnace. We would run the generator or go down the road the next day to recharge. If they didn't have enough juice to start the engine, they would still start the Kohler 12kw diesel generator,almost every time. Once or twice over the years,we would resort to jumping with the toad. They would usually last about three or four years.
Here's some perspective from my experience:
I've been starting a mech 6v92 on two 800 cca car batteries for over a year. It doesn't turn over fast but it starts. My DDECC II 8v92 starts like a champ (just started it in 35 degree F temps this week no block heater) on two group 31's. Having reserve like cliff mentioned is a good thing, I'm just throwing out my data for you to analyze as you see fit.
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Before you change batteries, you may need to consider how they are used in the coach.
I have a "merge" switch on the dash so I can connect the start batteries to the house batteries.
I have a 75 amp converter/ multi stage charger that I can use when plugged in & keep all batteries charged.
This charging system works best if the batteries are all the same.
When I got my coach, it had 4 T-105 for house & 2 4D for starts. They were water hogs! I replaced them with 8D's (2 house & 2 start) -- Not using much water at all now. If you use enough group31s, you will have the same reserve, but you will have more connections.
My 8Ds have the posts on top at one end only. I used the Pro Start T100EX Brass Battery Post Connector and have had excellent results. (The starts already had them when I got the coach & zero corrosion or oxidization on the terminals. Couldn't be happier)
Yes, 8Ds are heavier & cost more - but IMO, for the money, you can't get a better constructed battery.
Good luck keeping them this time - oh how I despise a thief.
Has any one seen a 8D in a sealed battery version? That might be a better solution to more power and less maintenance.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160518%2F14be17aa65dbb51714aa3fe94036b6d3.jpg&hash=416bbcfc084c2e92ccf4e5bd2622987cf787727a)
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Scott,
This 8D Trojan AGM is the battery we use in most of our MCI fleet. Not cheap, but a great battery. I have a rehab program that's about to start in a couple of months. We'll do about 40 coaches this first year. Anything we have with Group 31's is getting converted to the 8D.
Also, believe it or not, I have some 2011 D4500's with the original Hawker Odessey Group 31 batteries still in them. I really like AGM's.
? who makes the Hawker batteries,my Humvee has 2 Hawker 6TAGM that need replacing talk about a weird size 11in x 11in x 10in high and the only thing that will fit in the battery compartment
I'm not 100% sure, but I think Hawker makes their own. It's a top tier battery, pretty much the Rolls Royce of batteries. Last time I saw prices, they made Trojans look like they came from Walmart. I think they also make a lot of aircraft batteries too.
Quote from: LuckyChow on May 17, 2016, 06:43:52 PM
I'm not 100% sure, but I think Hawker makes their own. It's a top tier battery, pretty much the Rolls Royce of batteries. Last time I saw prices, they made Trojans look like they came from Walmart.
LOL yea they want over $500 ea for the Hawker 6TAGM
the DEKA batteries in my coach are all AGM, 2 D's and one group 31.
We have been buying our batteries from a guy who recycles them. Many of them are less than six months old. The 8Ds come out of long haul trucks. If they change one battery, they change them all. The good ones usually costs $100. The ones in the bus now are about three years old and still spin good. Our golf cart batteries came out of fork lifts. Again they change all of them at once. They are $40 for the really good ones. The ones we are running now are about four years old. Look on Craigs List.
Don and Cary
The Trojan's cost $360 with a $126 shipping fee (Apex Battery). They state that "The Trojan 8D-AGM Battery has a warranty of 12 months. Our products generally last about 3 times the warranty period if used and maintained properly." It looks like my cheap 8D's with the caps lasts just as long. What brand of conventional 8D's have you guys been using that last 5-8 years? Depending on the price, those might be the most efficient spark for the buck.
When I bought the 4905,it had Cat sealed 8d's.When they needed replaced I checked price....about 400 plus each. They weren't agms. I bought the Interstates which will need water as required for about half or less.
Quote from: chessie4905 on May 17, 2016, 07:18:18 PMWhen I bought the 4905,it had Cat sealed 8d's.When they needed replaced I checked price....about 400 plus each. They weren't agms. I bought the Interstates which will need water as required for about half or less.
That's what they don't tell you -- most of the "modern"sealed batteries" are NOT AGMs. They're plain old lead-acid batteries but they put plain flat tops on them. Every lead acid battery needs water but they figure that most people aren't going to maintain them anyway so they just "seal them" (yeah, right, if you look you'll find the vent in some semi-hidden place) in hopes that people will think that a battery that goes 3 years is better than a battery with open vents that isn't serviced and only goes 2 years. Yeah, but it's not as good as a battery that is taken care of and goes 6 years.
If you want an AGM battery, be sure you're getting one -- don't fall for the Sealed Battery scam.
The ones with the sealed tops (but not AGM or gel) are what they normally market as "maintenance fee". As mentioned, they are not much different than the regular battery that has watering holes. One manufacturer claims they put a catalyst in the vapor path to reclaim some electrolyte. I've never seen one dismantled so I don't know if it's true or not. I haven't kept up with this for the last 10 years or so, but a few years back there were only 3 or 4 battery manufacturers nationwide. All the various battery names were just rebadged marketing schemes.
The original "Maintenance Free" battery was a marketing ploy from Sears for their Die Hard. It was later discovered that it was the same battery, but without watering holes. They raised the price a lot and sold the same battery, greatly increasing their margin. They were later sued over this for deceptive advertising. I believe there was a class action suit that cost Sears mucho bucks.
While we are at it, wasn't there some recent posts concerning AGM meltdowns? Lost my interest on using them, plus too damn expensive. At least since you have to frequently add water to lead acid types, it gives you the opportunity to observe everything in the battery compartment. Btw, ever try to charge a dead agm? Makes more sense if you are full timing though. But 4 or 6 large batts to purchase? Wow! Spend it on the tires.
Because of where my deep cycle batteries are, they were very hard to water. I changed to 2-8D Lifeline AGM's. They lasted 7 years and in that 7 years did virtually nothing to them, nothing-not even clean the terminals once. It was like they weren't even there. The money difference between AGM's and wet batteries is way worth it to me. Good Luck, TomC
LOL I can tell you Trojan AGM's melt down I just replaced 6 of the 8D's like in the photo Luckychow posted it sucks one battery takes out 5 more
Quote from: LuckyChow on May 18, 2016, 05:52:10 AMThe ones with the sealed tops (but not AGM or gel) are what they normally market as "maintenance fee". As mentioned, they are not much different than the regular battery that has watering holes. One manufacturer claims they put a catalyst in the vapor path to reclaim some electrolyte. I've never seen one dismantled so I don't know if it's true or not. I haven't kept up with this for the last 10 years or so, but a few years back there were only 3 or 4 battery manufacturers nationwide. All the various battery names were just rebadged marketing schemes.
...
Yeah, a "catalyst in the vapor path". Right. I see you've been around this monkey business and have figgered it out, too. Esp. you're right about the very limited number of batt. manufacturers and the rebadging nonsense.
Why didn't you just eliminate the bad one and go with a smaller bank until the next one failed? Just wondering in case it happens to me. I have 8 AGM Trojans.
Quote from: Boomer on May 18, 2016, 09:01:48 AM
Why didn't you just eliminate the bad one and go with a smaller bank until the next one failed? Just wondering in case it happens to me. I have 8 AGM Trojans.
It took out all 6 of mine out Boomer not just one and Trojan told me it usually does when they have a thermal runaway
Wish you'll would stop this crap.. Talk about rooftop airs and one of mine dies.. Talk about batteries and both of my 8ds die . And I'm not even able to drive again yet. But they are 14 year old Interstate 's. rdw
Clifford here is the number for Hawker Batteries. For 500.00 you also get a sticker!...Wow
Proper labeling of authentic Hawker® 6TAGM Batteries:
Since March 2011, Hawker® added a US Government directed "Recoverable Item" maintenance sticker on the top of the Hawker® Armasafe™ Plus Battery.
To ensure you have received the original Hawker® battery, make sure your AGM batteries have the Hawker® label and the yellow "Recoverable Item "sticker (as shown below).
If you have any questions, please contact our Field Support Representatives at (877) 485-1472.
Yeah, you've got a point. Lets instead talk about refrigerators and transmissions going bad.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on May 17, 2016, 08:35:55 AM
They seem to only last about three years and you have to watch the water levels, but they do have a lot more reserve.
I'm on 7+ yrs with my 2 8D's.
Quote from: opus on May 18, 2016, 06:35:37 PM
I'm on 7+ yrs with my 2 8D's.
That's great, but what brand and model? There seems to be several levels with many brands.
Napa....not sure what model.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.interstatedealers.com/ibcatalog/common/commercial_spec.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi2n-mRiuXMAhWHHR4KHewGD1YQFggrMAU&usg=AFQjCNG-BiO45TRmC7e5MN4G4z2moqeKNQ (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.interstatedealers.com/ibcatalog/common/commercial_spec.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi2n-mRiuXMAhWHHR4KHewGD1YQFggrMAU&usg=AFQjCNG-BiO45TRmC7e5MN4G4z2moqeKNQ)
Quote from: opus on May 18, 2016, 07:19:27 PM
Napa....not sure what model.
Thanks, now I wonder who made it for NAPA. It might be Johnson Controls, if I heard right.
When my 2-8D AGM Lifelines were nearing the end, I noticed the inverter/charger was constantly charging. I went and inspected the batteries and one of the batteries was running warm. So I disconnected that battery and ran with just one deep cycle for a few more weeks until I could buy two new ones.
The worst battery I ever bought was the Caterpillar 8D. Was sealed, and didn't work worth s---. The best wet battery is any wet battery with the addition of Thermoil. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, did you use the Demister, Desulfater or both?
Clifford,
There is a place real close to my desk where there are thousands of them Hawkers! I wish I could have a few at liquidation prices. They have a 24 mo shelf life, and I don't know what happens with them if not used by then, but haven't seen them on Liquidation.com.
Now I am very curious!
I use this along with a couple of pulse chargers when coach is not in use. I check and add water if necessary every three months. Maybe they are like deer whistles but the technology sounds good.
http://www.pulsetech.net/XCQL4-QuadLink-4Channel-Battery-Charger-Multiplier-7275.aspx (http://www.pulsetech.net/XCQL4-QuadLink-4Channel-Battery-Charger-Multiplier-7275.aspx)