I must be nuts, and worse than that I already have the wife convinced it's a good idea lol. I was considering looking into a 102D3 about mid 90's with series 60. Then the wife and I thought 'if we're going to do it, we might as well just go ahead and do a DL3'. We're not in a big hurry, if it takes a year for the right deal to come along that's fine. We will take our time with this one.
What are the pros and cons of the dl3? What would be reasonable expected miles from the engine before overhaul? How difficult will it be to register as a motorhome in az?
I am finding mid 90's dl3's ranging from around 17k on up, averaging around 25k. Does that seem about right?
Look VERY carefully down the body skins for separation from the framing.
Inspect the floor on your hands and knees looking for the plywood and/or floor covering separating.
The DL3 flexed over every bridge hump...
That being said, a full on busnut tear apart and insulation job would give ample opportunity for tightening it all up.
S60 is a million mile engine.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Totally nuts and welcome to the "I am converting more than one bus" club. We are nuts. Completely. Sounds exciting. Best bus conversion is one you can take your time and slowly convert. I have no idea what that's like because both of my buses are converted quickly
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Derrick they are easy to register in AZ mine cost me 55 dollars a year,here they didn't even look when I had it changed from a commercial vehicle to a RV.
John and Steve had it registered as commercial and it would pop up as a bus and they wanted $965.00 a year to register as a bus ;D you know me $55.00 sounded a lot better than $965.00.Mine has the beam down each side to keep it from flexing, drive one the DL3 is a great bus it rides and drives great.Buy a west coast DL3 I have had the sides off mine repairing rust areas they are not as easy to repair rust on as a Eagle I can tell you for sure
This is why I'm doing my truck conversion. Just got tired of the cramped engine compartment and crawling under the bus. Plus, not many mechanics know how to work on a 2 stroke Detroit anymore. Working on the truck is so easy compared to a bus. Granted the ride isn't the same, and forward visibility isn't good for passengers, but that's minor. Being able to have the truck worked on by anyone in the trucking industry is priceless. Good Luck, TomC
When they get old enough you pay a minimum fee in Az. You also get a discount if you do it for more than one year at a time. Cost me $65.50 for 5 years on my 68 5A. ;D
This is just some general rambling, probably doesn't make a lot of since, and may speak to both sides of the topic, but here are some of my thoughts. We have owned well over 50 MCI coaches since we started our charter company 20 years ago, and several MCI motorhomes. We started with a MC8, owned lots of MC9's, plenty of 102 As and Cs, with every possible engine/trans combination available. We are currently running a fleet of 19 D and DL coaches, all with series 60's. They are by far the best of the batch, the last true workhorse. I see others talk about the C being the best shell, and personally, for what you can buy D's for, why would anyone even think about anything other then a D with a series 60?? My parents have a Custom Coach factory converted C3 with an 8v92, and I can tell you the D with the S60 is a far superior machine, especially on the highway, and climbing hills. Also the S60 is easy to work on, easy to find people to work on, and lots of available parts.
This being said the D, particularly the DL have some serious structural issues that MUST be delt with. We have developed our own version of MCI's update plates that go over the rear air bag supports, and almost every seated coach (with over 500,000 miles) will need them, I've had to put the plates in 2001 model DL's. If you do not have the templates, and have the skills to install them it is a very serious and costly project that you do not want to get involved with. The engines are basically bullet proof, I have seen them with a million miles still running strong, as good as a new engine. We have learned to rebuild ours at about the 800,000 mark just to catch them before any problems arise, but at that point they are still running perfectly. The B500 can be very costly to deal with if it is bad, so be careful there, I have seen bills of 20k if they fail the "wrong" way. However if you ever drive one you will want nothing else, as they shift so great, and with double overdrive get great mileage. Overall if you get the right DL that has had the updates, it will be a bus for the rest of your life, that rides like a dream. I personally think the D 40' is a stronger built bus, but most of my drivers think the DL 45' ride a little better. Once the DL is loaded they really ride like a Cadillac.
My last thoughts (and nobody be offended) is why would anybody want to start converting a 500,000+ mile seated coach, as cheap as you can buy low mileage factory coaches. I don't really want to sell mine, but it has been discussed to possibly sell in a year or so, and for what it is worth you could not start to convert a seated coach. It is a DL3 45' with series 60, aprox. 130,000 original miles, 20KW turbo Martin generator, factory raised roof, factory solar system, gorgeous black walnut interior with granite floors, lots of work including new air bags, etc. What is it worth? 75k on a good day?? I just don't see how you can buy a good low mileage bus for much less the 25k, then you start buying everything, and when your done you'll have 100 in it, and not a factory converted, factory raised roof, super low mileage bus that was stored inside, instead you have a 800,000 mile shell that was used commercially. The numbers just don't seem to add up to me??
Just my 3 cents
There is a good looking 1995 Vantre MCI DL3 with 75,000 mile located in Houston for sale on www.tejascoach.com (http://www.tejascoach.com) Sonja doesn't like the white laminate interior or that baby would belong to me already
I tend to agree with your wife, I like the rich look of my dark wood better, but how do you begin to convert a coach of this caliber for the cost???
that link is www.tegascoach.com (http://www.tegascoach.com)
If going traveling and camping is your goal, go buy something and do it.
If building the coach is the goal....
Be sure that both you and your significant other know which is the real goal...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
AdamWalkup, since we own a newly acquired 102C3, I'm definitely interested in the difference of it vs the D series. If the 102C3 had a 60 series, how would you compare the two coaches? So besides engine/power, I'm curious as to drivability comfort etc?
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Yeah that one is way out of my price range. Nice bus but I would have to rip it all out and redo it anyway. With 5 kids bunks are a must. I like the idea of designing and building it from the ground up. Done it once, now I know what things I would do differently.
I do understand the thoughts on wanting to convert yourself, but it has to be the hobby, where many like me the bus used for the hobby, and you sure can't duplicate what can be purchased.
As far as the differences, there are a lot of similarities, and a lot of differences. When you take out the interior updates (fabric ceiling, etc.) the C is a lot like the A. When they went to the "flat back" C they made some changes, including heavier differential, and the most important, the larger radiators mounted flat across the back. As much as I like S60 engines, the 8v92 is strong, and can really run, but the earlier C's cant cool it. My Dad's 90 C model with 8V92 could easily be turned up, but just won't cool it. We have done every trick in the book, from new high efficiency radiators to "scoops" to sealing air gaps, but it will still overheat if pushed, particularly in the mountains. I think his is set at 410 hp, and when climbing the temperature goes up, his foot comes out of it, and once he gets below about 20 mph the torque converter unlocks, and then the temperature REALLY climbs until he is sitting beside the road. Anytime we are out west, I spend a lot of time sitting waiting on him. We actually considered changing his bus to the flat back style, with the bigger radiators. Now granted we are both pulling 24' enclosed trailers that are heavy, but the D with S60 does a much superior job.
I understand people wanting an early C with no DDEC, just to stay away from all electronics, but if you are going to end up with a DDEC engine, and ATEC trans, you might as well go to a D and get the S60. A "C" is a well built tough bus, but the D just has some improvements, some suspension upgrades (but that's not a big deal to me) but most improvements are in the engine upgrade and the radiator set up.
I don't know if this link will work, please let me know, but this is a link to a bunch of pics my wife has of our DL
https://www.facebook.com/jamie.walkup/media_set?set=a.1424293691378.205457.1353830137&type=3 (https://www.facebook.com/jamie.walkup/media_set?set=a.1424293691378.205457.1353830137&type=3)
AdamWalkup, have you considered weaning the Allison off the engine cooling system in that C?
Some busnuts have mounted a hydraulic cooler in the curb side engine door, plumbed ahead of the stock heat exchanger in order to dump the heat before it reaches the engine coolant, and to maintain the cold weather warming ability. A fan with both thermostatic control and a bypass switch up front gives you choice in it's use.
Hayden is one reputable manufacturer: http://www.haydenindustrial.com/?fincool (http://www.haydenindustrial.com/?fincool)
The heat rejection of the Allison is significant, taking up a lot of the radiator capacity.
You will recall the trouble MCI was having with the "D" early on with retarder equipped B500R heating up...
I wish I had written down some of the heat rejection numbers when we used to have experienced engineers lurking amongst us...
Who can find some numbers? Heat rejection data is not as easy to find as some things...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
The Series 60 is a good engine, no doubt. I have driven with it in trucks and buses and it has great torque and will last a good long time while getting decent fuel mileage for the horsepower generated. But, it does not sound like a Detroit, it does not give me a thrill, it does not stir memories of bus trips in the past. The reason many of us convert buses is for the love of the sound of that engine and the creativity of designing your own space with the use of the materials that you choose. If you can find a used conversion that someone else did with care with similar tastes, and all you need to do is change the curtains to make the wife happy, you have found the most cost effective conversion possible.
I love my Eagles but IMO the DL3 is a far better bus,the 8v92 is not that hard to cool in Eagle that's all I ever ran in my Eagle after a short encounter with the 8V71 in mountains.It does make me sad to see my last Eagle leaving Wed but the time as come for it to leave the nest and I will miss the sound of the 8v71
hi All, I looked at.a.lot of used, mostly "C3s", after selling the first Italian greyhound. look at the rivets for bubbles for hidden rust under the paint! I wanted a non DDEC 8V92 and the rear radiator, preferred to retro fit a already converted bus, but couldn't pass up $6500 semi stripped interior C3. great idea bus warrior about the removal of heat from the engine with the separate trans cooler, Adam Walkup, your discription of heat problems with the 92s on hills is the exact problem I have, I was wondering if the C3s, with the.split.radiators, had this problem when new, lvmci...
The 8V-92TA is thee hardest engine to cool. After I turbo'd my 8V-71, although we only increased the injectors from N65 to 7G75 (300hp @ 800lb/ft to 375hp @ 1125lb/ft), because I installed an air to air intercooler in front of the radiator (where the A/C condenser would have gone), the air flow isn't as good. I also increased the radiator from a 5 row straight fin to 6 row serpentine fin. Even so, on over 90 degree days, it would overheat. I installed 15 misters from Home Depot that helped. But the best was just to drill out two of them to 1/16" and now the water really dumps and truly can reduce the heat while pulling a grade. Good Luck, TomC
Yes, the 8V92T made trouble in the MCI.
This was an optional engine that would not forgive careless hands.
Think of it this way - the 8V92T is a volcano looking for a place to erupt.
Anything sloppy in the maintenance of the cooling system, including all the fan compartment seals...
Drivers who wouldn't slow up enough to grab the next gear to maximize the cooling system...
And if the HP was boosted, all bets are off.
MCI has a long history of shaving the cooling numbers:
Automatic transmission introduction tipped the balance in the early 70's MC7 tiny radiators.
'73 MC8 bigger rads, was marginal with 8V71 and auto.
'78 MC9 bigger rads again, got it right with 8V71/6V92T and auto.
'85 Adding 8V92t to the 102's tipped the balance again.
'93 B500R couldn't stay cool in the early D models.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
MCI always kept their engines on low hp setting for cooling like around 400 hp for the 8v92,biggest mistake MCI owners make is looking for someone to bump a 8v92 up.Then comes the driver that is the most important part keeping a 8v92 cool change gears before the heat starts to rise and you are fine
Clifford where is your 05 headed for? Not scrap I hope. FYI it was not a bad job replacing my front torsions, would have been better if I was 20 years younger lol.
Thanks for the thoughts. We acquired a nice C3 with a solid 8v92TA and Allison 748 trans with the touchpad. Though a 40' D was what we initially wanted but when the C came along with so so much work already done to it, we couldn't pass it up. $10k for a 1992 C with the following done to it was just too tempting:
New radiators
Completely refurbished cooling system new hoses, blowers, and the cooling box was completely rebuilt, new blower gearbox and shafts. Brand new Goodyear Rolling lobe bags all the way around, brand new brakes and bearings all the way around. New shocks, brand new tag axle bushings, new nylon air lines all the way around, 8" roof raise and completely pro level flat back framework and cap conversion done on the rear, reskinned sides with galvaneal, 24.5" aluminum rim alcoas all around except one, a completely brand new still in the boxes in frame cylinder kit genuine Detroit diesel for a 6v92 including cam cylinders, liners, etc in the luggage bay, a spare Allison 748, brand new electric air wipers with delay and touchpad controls and brand new chrome Ramco heated power mirrors. All those things added up to value for us...maybe in the end a D would have been a better choice. I guess we are still young at 33 years old so someday I'm sure we have a third conversion in us :) (https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160322%2F8792a81d149a71735fa4c133727cd22f.jpg&hash=c88b8e0abbf6cd36b982119164c776dfabcfb28e)
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hi All, Clifford showed me how dirt and grime had collected between the fins of both radiators, simply by shining a powerful flashlight thru the radiators, and I couldn't see the light. using finn cleaners from airconditioning supply store, and then disolving internal radiator dissolving corrosion rinse, I have solved a great deal of my heat issues on my 8V92 engine, lvmci...
Quote from: Boomer on March 22, 2016, 09:10:15 AM
Clifford where is your 05 headed for? Not scrap I hope. FYI it was not a bad job replacing my front torsions, would have been better if I was 20 years younger lol.
It's headed for OKLA Boomer I don't know what he is going to do with lol I really don't want to ask but I got a fair price I didn't give it away.If it wasn't for the one man size 2-1/4 nut they are not bad, glad you got it replaced ;D me I would need help now replacing one
I see some of the DL3's have the smaller 11.1 series 60. Naturally I would prefer the larger 12.7 but....if I come across one in really good shape with the 11.1 is it even worth considering? Or would a DL3 conversion be underpowered with the 11.1?
We have one 11.1 in our fleet, and I love it, however other people around the country talk about how they don't like them, and the fuel mileage is not as good. What I have found is the 11.1 actually does BETTER on mileage, but you have to put the right gear ratio behind it. If my memory is right, the 12.7 standard gear is 4.30:1, however most 11.1 have something like a 4.90:1. With the slower rearend gear that poor engine is screaming at 70+ mph.
We have changed some of our 12.7 to a 3.73:1 ratio which does give slightly better fuel mileage on the highway, but about the same on any trip with much city driving. With a 12.7 the mileage in our fleet is aprox:
4.30:1 =6.4 average mpg
3:73:1 =6.9 average mpg
Remember this is the 12.7 running commercial charter work, and the number could be somewhat off because we try to run the coaches with higher gears on the longer highway runs.
With the 4:90 gear in the 11.1 it really does not get any mileage, but if you change it to at least a 4.30 it does just fine. Will not have the crazy fast pickup off the line, and might not pull the mountain as fast, but will do the job, probably more reliably since you aren't pushing the power through the engine or trans. A number of companies here in the south try to turn the power DOWN on their 12.7's all the way to 350, just because you don't need all that crazy power sucking down fuel when the driver puts it to the floor
Hi Tom, I'm going to put in a misting system on both radiators, and will probably drill them out too, I had a distilled water system in the old 5A, but this time I'm going to use an open spot on the water manifold and use the water pump to squirt from the holding tank. And invest in a 12volt remote control, to turn it on and off, tom, lvmci...
Since my water system is under my rear bed, I just plumbed into that and used a 12v water solenoid using the old emergency shut down wire that was now not used since Don Fairchild eliminated the emergency flapper on my engine. Just have to make sure the water pumps are on, then on the dash, have my switch labeled "misters". When the engine temp starts creeping up, once it gets towards 200 (I know now when the temp doesn't come back down and continues to creep up) I turn on the misters. About 2 minutes of operation will bring the temp right back down. Especially in the dry climate of the west. Have not tried it in the humidity of the east. But probably won't since those trips will be in my truck conversion when it is done. Good Luck, TomC
Curious about the misting system - how much water is consumed per minute of use, and how often does it need to be used when going up a serious grade? Is it a easier solution overall instead of larger or additional radiators?
I purchased a system off eBay that was designed for some coach company. I think it was Marathon.
It has a container that holds about 2 gallons of liquid and a built in pump.
I have 4 nozzles and if I am in the hills of West Virginia if fill it up every day.
I have a button on the left that i use to make it work,
Most of the time I run windshield washing fluid in it. Do not worry about it freezing and it keeps the radiator clean.
I think it cost me about 45.00 dollars at the time.
uncle Ned
In my case, I enlarged the radiator to its biggest core. Adding another radiator might work, just don't have the room. Besides, I don't need the misters very often. Some trips don't ever use them. A year ago when we went to Pahrump, I only used them 3 times. Once up Cajon, Baker, then over the hill into Pahrump. Good Luck, TomC
I think misters should be a necessary addition to any coach that has heating issue in grades,providing the cooling system is in good, well maintained condition. The minimal cost for a setup is far cheaper than a toasted engine in repair costs. Sure just let off the throttle, but then those times when the crest of the hill is just a couple hundred yards away and you already have a line of vehicles behnd you.......
^^^ this....
Is my life
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Just brought home a 1998 DL3. A little more than I really wanted to pay, but I literally could not find a speck of rust. She's governed at 65 so that will need to be addressed. Now the fun begins, start stripping it down tomorrow.
Tell us more. What engine and transmission?
JC
I hope you got the 430/470 series 60 and B500,the D is good bus it has a few problem areas but they all do,and the D is easy to work on. 65 mph is not a bad setting it's not like a 8v71 that faints when they see a hill, grades don't seem to bother ours set on cruise
I love the follow along tag set up,I am gathering parts for disk brakes for ours I have Jakes and the retarder it's probably a over kill but disk brakes don't give all the problems as the drum brakes.
If you have the bus in Quartzsite I would like to stop and see it on the way home this weekend I hope if the Mayo is through with me ???
Clifford it is the 330/350 11.1 with B500 and jakes. I really wanted a 12.7 but this one is so clean and I feel I got a good deal. It does have a few issues I need to iron out but structurally it is beautiful. I was absolutely amazed at the mileage it got coming home, I won't even tell you what it was, I would bring out all the naysayers and start a war. Let's just say that it does better than double the 8v71. I am not in Quartzsite I am at the house in Golden Valley.