Hello!
We're Deb & John and we're new to the bus world. We've been reading the forums, magazine, and following various bus blogs for over a year. You've probably heard this story before... we're selling everything and buying a bus so we, with our 13 yo daughter, can go fulltime and see the country.
We've been RVing for 8 years, though we've always rented. So we're in the bus search phase and looking for facts -- and opinions are gratefully appreciated too. We've decided on a couple of key factors for our needs:
A. Bus conversion - 35' max (and we want every inch of that!)
B. No slides
C. Manual transmission, diesel engine
D. Interior height bare minimum 6'4", an inch or two higher would be better (John's 75 3/4" tall in normal sneakers)
E. Intercity style bus with bays underneath for utilities
Here's where our questions come in...
1. We like the GMCs, especially the 4107 and 4108, though it seems like they aren't tall enough on the interior and roof raises aren't common (or perhaps are ill advised by many). We have visited a 4106 and contacted a bunch of other GMs... all the GMCs we've heard from have low ceilings. Are there 35 ft GMs that have taller interiors?
2. We've heard that Prevost and Newell are taller inside, but can't find any ads for 35 ft models to even ask about their interior height. Also, we can't find much data about the amount of underneath bay storage they have.
3. MCI-5s look like a good option with roof raises being more common, but I can't figure out how to tell by looking if the roof has been raised. Is there a way?
4. Eagle 15s are supposed to have a 35 ft version, but I've yet to find one. How common are 35 ft versions? Anyone know what type of interior height they have?
4. Are there other buses out there that we should be considering given our parameters?
Thank you!
Deb & John
Ve = 55 MPH
Everything is a compromise...
How much standing and walking do you really do inside the coach? We taller types already are wired to duck and slouch, we've been hitting our heads since our teen years, we're used to it now...
Everything else in your wish list is compatible, common and lots of choice available, if you forget the interior height.
As you noted, roof raise on GM is rare and tricky.
Stock bus, you have to go to MCI 102C3 and newer for interior height, and they are all 40 or 45 foot long.
Go for a MC5 or a 4107/4108 for the bigger bays, keep stock floor and ceiling, no shoes in the house, duck under the AC shroud....?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Thanks for your thoughts Buswarrior! We're weighing all factors... compromising where we can, especially as we're planning to stuff 3 people (and several cats) in 35 ft fulltime!
John can't stand up straight in a GMC even flat footed with no AC shroud. As for how much standing does one really do... if we weren't going to be fulltime, he'd likely be more willing to compromise going into the search process. However given we will be fulltime, he'd really like to be able to stand up with shoes on (he's not a barefoot or even flip-flop kind of guy).
We're hoping to avoid doing a roof raise... hoping to find one that works stock or is already modified.
Cheers!
Deb
Ve = 55 MPF
The 35 foot MCI's have a drop box. As noted everything is a compromise. I say go for a 40 foot MCI. They are cheap and plentiful. Find something with the power plant you want because the change out is expensive and buying it done is cheap. The T drive is the easiest to work on or get worked on.
I know you only wanted 35 feet but that not only limits the head room but the engine transmission configuration.
Remember this is just an opinion and it worth everything you paid for it.
HTH
Melbo
I sent you a PM.
5B Steve.......
I highly respect buswarrior so take this only as my opinion not as an affront to him. I'm in the raise the roof camp. We did it and it was well worth it. Without any shadow of a doubt. You will be hard pressed to find a 35 foot coach with a high roof. They exist but are much rarer. If he wants a manual trans because he thinks they are more reliable, please have him consider the amazing bullet proof reliability of an Allison 740 auto trans.
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hi Deb & Jon, there is a newer 35' 102 wide, higher roof, called the MCI F I think, not many of them on the used market, have seen a few made into a conversion, a little too expensive and don't have the best mechanical reputation, when we decided to full time after having our 5A for six years, we looked for a 102C3 as full times best fit, and I've been very happy with the result, come to a few bus getogethers, walk thru a few and ask questions, ask Dave5CS and lost again about life in a MCI5, as for a roof raise, there are shops that are very experienced doing that, like B&B in LV and several of our group have done it themselves, tom, lvmci...PS, if Dave is too cranky, just get him on another day, it will pass!
Buy yourself a good PT Blue Bird conversion( not the school bus) and be done with it they are as dependable as anything on the market,the 35 ft Prevosts are from the late 70's not many of those around
Welcome aboard. Grab a big hot cup of coffee or tea, draw up a comfy chair and have fun and giggles discussing, (and cussing) you soon-to-be-new-to-you Bus Conversion.
I have an "outside the box" suggestion. Many others will not agree which is good. Consider about a 1985 or so 35 foot long by 8 feet wide by about 10.5 feet high ...
Crown Supercoach ex school bus. Definitely a West Coast phenomenon. Mills are either an older Detroit Diesel 671T or the better Big Cam-NTC Cummins engines.
These most likely if still factory stock will have mechanical engines. No computers at all. Parts and support of these older diesels may still be doable. No other computers.
Either the 740 or type Allison or Fuller T905M or the fun cool close ratio RTO910 easy to shift 10 Speed Roadranger manual tranny. Powerful TRW power assist steering.
Huge 16"x10" or bigger drum air brakes. Leaf spring suspension. Rare rear air bags. Aluminum body. High strength steel frame. A 4130 roll bar every 17 inches.
Superior road handling. Mine went 85. Superior brakes. 35 footers have a tight turning circle. Cheap Cummins upgrades to 475 hp. Radiators good for 400+ hp.
With research and connections, still available used from California and West Coast. Expect to pay less than $8000 used. Lots of good life left. Can be rebuilt easy.
Uses off the shelf HD truck parts. Engine is in the middle. HD highway truck drive train and clutch. Fun to drive. Superior road manners to the 4106. Good project bus.
Now the downside. Only 75" headroom. Roof raising kinda easy but doable. Large fuel and holding capacities difficult. Not much under floor space. Few big trunks.
Might be difficult getting non commercial RV tags. Depends. Easy to get speeding tickets. They look like "Twinkies". Not for everybody. Only hot rodders need apply.
You will want between about a 1978 to a 1988. Flat front windshields. White roof. Turbo Big Cam or NTC Cummins preferable. Jakes available. Much fun indeed!
Driving a hot Crown will change your thinking about a Bus Conversion. Again, not for everybody. But ... perfect for some. Mechanical and driving skills required.
Fuel mileage? My 1974 40 foot 10 wheeler Crown at 24,500# from Hesperia CA to Cave Junction OR averaged 10.3 mpg at 1500 rpm at 60 mph in 10th gear.
Cummins, Cummins, Cummins. :) :) :)
We have a 4107 and absolutely love it.
We are also fulltime. And we're new to the whole bus thing. We've been fulltime for almost two years now. Your list pretty much matched ours, when we were looking, with a couple of exceptions.
We initially wanted a manual transmission as well, but were eventually talked out of it; after reading up on how they work (along with others opinions of them). We've both been driving manuals since we were kids, and expected the same in the bus. A manual transmission is a totally different animal in a bus. It's a non synchronized transmission, so shifting is part art, part science, and part magic. I'm certain others will have different opinions on the matter to be sure (especially those who can shift them in their sleep), but I'd be sure to double check the manual tranny requirement.
We also wanted a max of 35' and for us it's worked out really well. It's allowed us to get into some pretty tight spots quite comfortably (as where I'd probably not have taken a 40' or 45' bus anywhere near).
We had zero desire for slides, for multiple reasons, and we really have not missed them. I'm sure it'd be nice to expand the salon or bedroom a couple of feet, but as buswarrior said, it's all about compromises and getting slides in a bus (especially a converted seated coach) is quite a... chore.
Having the luggage storage bays has been immensely helpful in lugging around all the shtuff you need for full-timing. We have two huge bays. The front bay is (was) entirely open. About 1/4 of it is being taken up by misc electrical bits (inverter, generator start battery, etc) and other oddly shaped things. For the remainder, we installed a drawer on wheels to allow sliding it out from either side. We have it full of bins and have it kinda sorta organized.
The back bay has our black and gray tanks and the remaining 1/4 of it also has a similar drawer setup. That ended up being the "garage" area and has all my tools and other misc junk :)
As for the height.... I'm not sure you'll be able to come up with that interior height on any (stock) bus. We've looked at a few and they're all fairly squat. The floor in ours was lowered about 4-5" and standing in the center (highest point of rounded roof) we have around 6' 4" of clearance. 4-5" might not seem like much, but it does change the precieved space in the room.
But honestly, we've also been in a stock 4106 and it was quite comfortable in there. Of course neither of us is 6' 4" ;D
Whatever bus you go with, make sure you've looked at several before making a decision. Each conversion is just a little bit different and might greatly affect your decision making process.
If you're mechanically inclined you might be able to evaluate a bus on your own, but if you can make good friends with a knowledgable bus nut (or an actual mechanic) and get them to check out your final contenders, that would certainly be preferred. There are A LOT of bits and pieces on these old buses. They've been in service (to some degree) for 50 years and there's always something. Figuring out the integrity of the high points -does it start, does it move, does it steer, and most importantly does it stop are crucial.
We're just now running through a whoooole laundry list of stuff on our bus to get stuff taken care of. But expect a perennial project. As stated, there's always something :D
This forum is a great place to gather intel, and seek advice on all sorts of items. Many a folks on here have certainty talked me off of the ledge a time or two :)
But overall welcome to the bus community. Once you're bitten by the bus bug, it's very difficult to cure :o
have you given any thought to what you can tow behind a GM.. and how much power is needed to do that ? vs. what motor you will own ?
Thank you all so much! We love hearing all the facts and opinions... much new to think about.
I thought I'd explain a bit of our reasoning, briefly, and our expected use...
A. Bus conversion - 35' max
We want to be able to stay in as many as possible major (and minor) state and national parks. We're aware of length restrictions and want to avoid them as we can. Also, we will be pulling our MINI Cooper S as a toad and the overall length will restrict easy access to many places if we go bigger.
B. No slides
We don't want the mechanical difficulties.
C. Manual transmission, diesel engine
Prime factor here is fuel economy. We don't hold hope diesel will stay this low long. We're both mechanically inclined, life long stick drivers, and John's already familiar with double clutching. I'm fairly certain I'll manage as I can double clutch my beloved Getrag 6-speed MINI when rallying.
D. Interior height bare minimum 6'4", an inch or two higher would be better (John's 75 3/4" tall in normal sneakers)
We hope for a interior height that's usable from the start either stock or already raised. Though, we've accepted we might have to get a good bus and raise the roof. John's not willing to compromise on this one yet as he likes to cook and I don't want him to have any excuse for not helping clean up. :)
E. Intercity style bus with bays underneath for utilities
We considered intracity buses and skoolies, but decided against them. As a family of three, we desperately need the storage space. We expect to be boondocking extensively and need the room for utilities as well as gear. We like the outdoors and are not pole to pole types. Also, given John's work (locum tenens hospitalist), we will need to be able to heat the bays as we won't always be able to follow mild weather.
We also want to have good insurance and skoolies, we've learned, can be a good bit harder to insure.
We understand than any bus will be a project... a neverending one at that. We currently have an 1852 house, different medium, similar problem set.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts... we're making lots of notes. John's intrigued by the floor lowering... that's one we haven't heard of, though I'm sure that has to cut into the bay storage... as many said, compromises.
Deb
Ve = 55 MPH
Cummins cummins cummins. HB is my old coot internet buddy and i don't disagree with him on any subject except
The spelling of cummins lol! What do I know. I'm a young coot :)
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A auto would be your best clutches are a weak point on old buses because of the gearing they don't last long ,are getting very expensive and hard to find in a hurry.GM's are not bad to change but a MCI 5 is a pain you need to remove the engine to do one.People buy what ever they choose but I would go with a T drive with a right handed engine 40 ft long the, GM power steering sucks too
Your desire to have a manual transmission might be a problem if you do not have bus or truck driving experience. A bus from any of the major makes usually had a Spicer 4 or 5 speed that requires patience and double-clutching skills. My first bus was a Model 5 Silvereagle with the Spicer 4 speed. It had air-assist on the clutch pedal, but it was still heavy to work. The linkage goes through many bushings the full length of the coach that benefit from lubrication.
Your trips will be more enjoyable with an automatic. I still remember stop and go traffic messes, starting on hills, left leg turning to rubber, backing down hills that were to steep for the high gearing - shoot for an automatic!
As everybody else has said--everything is a compromise!
BUT---HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO SPEND ON YOUR DREAM COACH!
I have a 40' long 4905, and love it--but I am not 6'4" tall!! My wife and I are both 5'9"(and shrinking), and we can walk under the A/C just fine. The 8V71 is coupled to a 4 speed manual, and does just fine going everywhere I want to go.
There are no stock GMC's that would meet your criteria. With a very substantial amount of work, you can raise the roof on a GM, but very few have done it, and I'm guessing that you would need about an 8" raise at the minimum. There was a gentleman in Utah that raised the roof on a GM 4905, and did quite a nice job, and then quit for some reason and the coach is still unfinished. If you hire someone to raise the roof, it may be quite expensive. On my GMC, the road gears for 1st and Reverse, combined with the "wet" clutch make backing into campsites challenging. You have to basically "stab and coast" to get into a tight site. If you slip the clutch at all, you will burn it up! My approach is to quickly release the clutch(at idle) and then engage it right away, basically just bumping the gear to get me moving a little bit. If you let it in gear for any length of time, you will be on the other side of the campground in a hurry. I think my GM can go like 20 mph backwards!!!!
The GMC is a fine coach, and the power steering works well(with the right fluid in it and all the fittings tightened ;D ;) Even though I am a dyed-in-the-wool GM guy, I think you would be better with a MC-5(raised roof) or Bluebird PT-36 if you want to stay in the 35 ft range and get into state parks. I would seriously consider an automatic, as getting into those tight sites in campgrounds with an automatic are very much less stressful at night/bad weather (or when anybody is watching).
The beauty of bus conversions is you can do it your way (credit FAST FRED), and you don't have to justify what you are doing to anyone other than yourself(and lovely better half ;))
Steve Toomey
:D I admire you guys that can drive a 4905 man that thing takes a lot of space to turn my gate has been wiped out twice both times by a 4905A new owners
perhaps cutting 5 feet out of an Eagle is the easier solution... roof raises on Eagles are child's play ( I am told )... start with a 8v92 model 10 and an Allison.
in fact that would be my dream backup coach :)
Quote from: Escape Velocity on March 14, 2016, 10:05:06 AM
1. We like the GMCs, especially the 4107 and 4108, though it seems like they aren't tall enough on the interior and roof raises aren't common (or perhaps are ill advised by many). We have visited a 4106 and contacted a bunch of other GMs... all the GMCs we've heard from have low ceilings. Are there 35 ft GMs that have taller interiors?
~~ The stock interior height for the GMC parlor cars (4104 > 4905) was 72" at the center aisle, with a sharply curved roof giving about 70" at the wall.
~~ When the 11'-tall Buffalos went into production, a lot of carriers were making more money downstairs with package express than they were with paying passengers. Thus the large baggage bins, of which the 4905, even today, 36 years after they went out of production, still has more cubic feet than several of the current 45-foot models! But GM also had to deal with low bridge heights, so had to design their coach to clear without taking off the roof. The solution was the large baggage bins to meet the demand at the expense of interior headroom. (Consider low bridges if you do a roof raise - see: http://11foot8.com/ (http://11foot8.com/))
~~ GMC parlor cars have no frame, they're built like an airplane - the exterior skin carries the loads. In the 30+ years I've fooled around the bus industry, I've only seen two successful roof raises on a GM coach in person. One is still on the road, a 4106 that was so well done you have to take a second or third look to really see it. (No, it's not mine, and no, it's not for sale.) The other was on a 4905 that was poorly done and it showed - probably the ugliest GM I've ever seen.
~~ FYI, IMHO, the 35-foot 4107 & 4108 were the WORST handling highway coaches GMC ever built when the weather got bad, especially in high wind situations. Add together a relatively short wheelbase, a large "sail" area plus a sharp crosswind and the results will send you across three lanes of traffic before you realize what's just happened. Surprisingly, tho, it's big brother, the 4905 with it's longer wheelbase, didn't suffer this malady.
The two coaches I would recommend that you seriously, seriously consider would be the MCI 102C3 series and the Prevost H3-40/41, with a nod to the latter as better fitting your criteria. Both are 40', both are 102" wide (which makes a BIG difference inside!) and both are available with 4-stroke engines (preferred nowadays.) Interestingly, the H3 actually has a smaller turning radius than the 4107/8, yet it's five feet longer! It also has the tallest stock interior height, at 77", which John would like! ;D
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
PS: Please edit your forum profile to include your names and home base city/state so that we can better help you. Simply click on the "Profile" menu tab above. When the next screen appears, click on "Forum Profile Info" in the LH menu and follow the prompts. TIA! :)
Quote from: Escape Velocity on March 14, 2016, 10:05:06 AM
Bus conversion - 35' max (and we want every inch of that!)
John & Deb -I want you to seriously reconsider purchasing a 40-foot coach for one major reason: Your teen-aged daughter.
John probably won't understand this as quickly as Deb will, but your growing girl is really going to want to have her "space" inside this tin can on wheels.
Sure, Mom & Dad have that nice queen bed in the back, but do you really want her having to sleep on the sofa? Especially if you're full-timing?
What if Mom & Dad are entertaining some fellow busnuts in the living room and your girl wants to turn in for the night? Where's she going to go if her "bedroom" is the front couch? Where's she going to put her things - in a box under the table?
No, a teen girl really needs her space, and for full-timing, a 35' coach won't meet that criteria.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Planning long boondocking with 3 people means a greater need for utilities space,
properly prepared for real winter conditions, insulation steals precious inches in every direction in the bays.
significantly sized water tanks, fresh/waste, fuel/propane/battery bank/ generator
Is the AC going on the roof to raise your clearance, or underneath, taking up bay space?
Heating systems suitable for comfortable winter living take up space and consume fuel. Make sure you design in redundancy to protect the utilities and the interior. Too few busnuts are designed to be happy in real winter conditions. tip: 40k BTU for the interior isn't enough, and don't put all your heating BTU eggs in one basket....
How tall do you want to be? How much water do you want to carry? How long do you want to be able to sit still in winter without fueling?
A 35 footer is rapidly being pushed off the table?
RJ's suggestion of Prevost H3 40/41 or MCI 102C3/102D3 are going to do what you are looking to do.
Prevost is taller with bigger bays, MCI is shorter with smaller bays.
Both can be had with manual or auto transmissions. If you are racing a Mini, one of these newer coaches will be just fine in stick shift for you.
MCI had an optional Cat engine coupled to a 7 speed Spicer that leveled out the hills....
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: Escape Velocity on March 14, 2016, 07:49:11 PM
Manual transmission, diesel engine: Prime factor here is fuel economy.
Fuel Mileage -You're talking about fuel economy with a vehicle that has the aerodynamics of a brick and weighs fifteen tons or more? ???
I tell people my MCI gets 13 mpg: 6.5 going eastbound plus 6.5 coming back westbound equals 13 mpg - just like the new Common Core Math!
The most common and popular bus conversion shells that most busnuts own average between 6 - 8 mpg. The newer ones with the electronic engines pick up a mpg or two, but not much. Plan and budget trips at 5 mpg (to include diesel generator run-time) and you won't be disappointed.
Transmissions -90% of the busnuts who inhabit this forum - and most of the other bus-hobby related sites - will tell you to buy a coach that came from the factory with an automatic transmission for two major reasons: It's less fatiguing to drive (think heavy traffic) and it's far, far easier to wiggle into a campsite with one, especially if you're trying to back up a slight incline. The first & reverse gearing in a highway coach gearbox is simply not low enough, making it far to easy to burn out an expensive clutch. And the Getrag gearbox in the Mini is absolutely nothing compared to a 4-spd Spicer in terms of a challenge to drive. As a retired bus driver trainer, I can tell you that it often takes thousands of miles before you finally figure out how to drive one smoothly. Plus, and this is an important point: You're not driving a sports car, you're driving a house on wheels! You have to change your mindset to that of Aesop's Fable of The Tortoise and The Hare, and you're not the rabbit!! The Allison line of automatics are virtually bullet-proof with simple preventative maintenance. The 1-2 mpg sacrifice in fuel mileage is worth far more in convenience of operation. Not to mention far easier to sell, should the time come. DON'T compromise on this - regardless of what my good friend Buswarrior says! (Hehehehehe. . .)
Speaking of the Mini, you won't have any problem towing it behind a 40' coach as far as overall length issues. Folks with 45-foot rigs tow full-sized pickups and don't seem to be bothered, so that's really a non-issue. BUT - 90% of the time, you're going to have to unhook the toad when it comes to setting up camp. All part of the experience.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
RJ is getting old...
Seriously, another advantage to an automatic: the engine is far less likely to have been oversped, and it will not have been lugged.
Detroit Series 60 and an Allison B500 is, by far, the most popular drive train in the target coaches.
Shall we start the retarder vs engine brake debate?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
If you have a teen aged daughter then you need at least a 45 ft coach!!! And you better fix up a baggage bay to sleep in yourself :D :D ;D
I think if you scrape hard enough on a bluebird or a crown you'll find yellow paint......jmo. If you have been renting an RV for a few years,you likely aren't into the maintenance and costs associated with a coach conversion, especially if you can't do a lot of the work yourselves. Think hard before you go this way.
Todays 45 ft coaches are easier to maneuver around than the 35 ft coaches of yesterday.I am just amazed how the 45 ft D MCI I got from John and Steve maneuvers around in tight area lol but you need to watch the tail swing ;D BW it has both the retarder and Jakes
Thanks... love repartee! We appreciate the warm welcome. I also updated our profile (thanks for the tip RJ).
Manual vs. Automatic:
In our discussions, John is willing to compromise on a manual before he's willing to compromise on height. He believes the fuel economy will be be ~8 MPG for manual and ~6 MPG for an automatic. Most of the information I've seen agrees with that. He believes the 30% gain in fuel economy is worth a manual.
I'm appreciative of the (horror) stories about driving a manual, especially about burning up clutches. I'm the original owner of my 2002 MINI Cooper S at 168,000 miles and I'm on my original clutch. I believe driving well is a skill and I am not willing to have John be the only bus driver. I'm fairly certain I could learn to drive a manual bus, though I admit I don't have a strong desire to do so. I'm willing to trade fuel economy for daily driving ease. We'll see where our search leads us. As many of you have said... compromises.
Height:
Remains non-negotiable. We'll need a taller interior or we'll buy expecting to raise the roof. I have no issue with height so I'll leave that one to him as I'm short.
Length:
We both agree 35 ft is best. Many of the reasons all three of us have for wanting to fulltime make a 35 ft max our best choice. We have traveled in many sizes of RVs, though we understand fulltiming will be different than renting. We haven't owned an RV yet mostly because we live in the city on a narrow one-way street with a 34' long driveway that narrows to ~4' as it goes back from the ~9' wide apron. So up until now we had decided that renting was a better choice than paying to store an RV offsite that we only use a few times a year.
We know three people in 35 ft will be tight. John and I are both aware of the issues of an older child needing personal space, though she's not your typical kid. She's enthusiastic about hitting the road plus she wants and loves to be outside as much as possible. We do expect to reconfigure the interior so that our daughter can have her own space - we're thinking that a very small room with a fold down bunk and desk/drawers for her with a small bedroom for ourselves would work. We expect to give up a dedicated dinette, have a smaller living room, and have a very small (wet?) bathroom in order to arrange space for her.
Space / Utilities:
We want to insulate as much as possible for bays and the interior of the coach. We know that will be compromise between headroom and insulation. We hope to get at least 100G fresh and 100G gray and plan to go for a composting toilet. We're planning for solar as well - we already have a mobile solar setup for camping, though we plan to hard install a bigger system with a lithium battery bank in the coach's interior once the roof situation is stable (raised). Ideally we'd like a split AC in a bay rather than a roof top unit, but that's a later consideration. As for overall height, we're willing to go to the legal limit, though obviously shorter is easier in many respects. And, yes, John has already horrified us all with videos from 11foot8.com.
Costs:
We know that a bus, like a house and a boat, will take money and lots of maintenance. We're aware that buses have constraints on parts, shops that can handle their size, etc. We still think buses are better, safer, and more well-built than any but the most expensive RVs we've seen. We can't afford a million dollar rig so we'll compromise to older and built for a million miles. We are both mechanically inclined fix-it-ourselves types, though not experienced in buses. I, with help, did most of the modifications, including a supercharger reduction pulley, on my MINI.
I do think, that at least for now, we'll stay out of the retarder vs engine brake debate! :)
So far MCI-5s are high on our list as well as Eagle 15s and older Prevosts (if we could find either)... We'll have to look for the MCI Fs... hadn't heard about that option - thanks!
Deb
Deb, do let us know your final choice. I'm feeling like it may be so hard to find what you're looking for that you might enjoy a fifth wheel or prebuilt RV better?
You are not driving a Mini so expect clutch problems on a bus and it's a 4 grand pop on the road to replace 1 fwiw.The 35 ft MCI,Eagle or the Prevost is going to have a drop box the autos are a lot easier on the drop box than the standard transmissions drop boxes and parts for 1 are getting out of sight in price for used parts
It is one thing to drive a car or a truck with the stick in the top of the transmission and other to shift when the linkage is 25 to 35 ft long. So many more possible failure and/or adjustment points.
If you happen to come across an Eagle Model 20 that was built for New Jersey transit, they were built with coden steel which doesn't support rust. It could be shorten and roof raised.
Art
Deb, decades ago when PD-4905's were front line equipment, I was a driving instructor (among other things) for a company that ran everything from schoolbuses to transits/suburbans, and 4903's & 4905's. I certainly understand why so many folks are recommending automatics (and I agree for quite a few reasons) -- but, if you're set on a stick, there's no reason you can't learn to drive it properly. I'm strictly a GM guy, no experience with MCI's, Eagles, Prevosts -- but on GM's, every bus, every transmission is different. Within the same bus, they're different hot and cold.
RJ has an article on shifting, and I believe he's been known to travel to teach. I searched and found that you're in Brookline, MA (I'm originally from North Andover, and drove buses in the Merrimack Valley, in/out of Boston. Locally, the guy I'd go to is Spike Michaud in Brentwood, NH -- Michaud Bus Sales. His son Jim runs the company now, but Spike is still around. He was Director of Maintenance for his family bus company (Michaud Bus in Salem). Take a look at Michaud's website, busesonline.com. You might find something that fits the bill -- and you might want to give Jim/Spike a call to discuss your search.
Driving a stick shift bus is a skill. When I taught, I'd teach bus maneuvering on an automatic transit, shifting on a synchromesh schoolbus, then they'd graduate to the non-syncro coach. I will say that there was great satisfaction in making smooth up and downshifts -- using the model of the bridal party standing in the aisle in white, with glasses of red wine that shouldn't be spilled. If some of the folks I taught could learn, almost anyone can.
However, one other thing I may be missing is where you want to go. One former member had to trade his stick 4106 for an automatic 4108 because he wanted to go to beaches that had steep grades in and out. Grades, off-roading speak more to the Crown mentioned earlier -- highway coaches don't like hills, and definitely don't like going off pavement.
Arthur
Can you still get parts for the oil clutch like some 4905 used
Quote from: Escape Velocity on March 15, 2016, 03:46:16 PM
Manual vs. Automatic:
In our discussions, John is willing to compromise on a manual before he's willing to compromise on height. He believes the fuel economy will be be ~8 MPG for manual and ~6 MPG for an automatic. Most of the information I've seen agrees with that. He believes the 30% gain in fuel economy is worth a manual.
We actually average ~7mpg out of our 730, paired with a 6v92.
But regardless of the MPG differential, fuel will be the least of your expenses on a bus (unless you plan on running a long distance hauling operation :D).
You'll blow any perceived fuel savings doing a single burned out clutch rebuild (not to mention the PITA it is owning one the rest of the time).
;D
I personally don't think you will get much better fuel mileage on a stick than 1 mpg in an Eagle. But there's a lot of variables to fuel mileage. I have a lot of miles in a 4905 and an 05 Eagle with stick. I wouldn't go back to a stick if they gave me the bus. Once you have to back down a long, steep, winding hill to the bottom because a car in front of you stopped to watch a bear ambering along the side of the road, you'll understand.
Back in 1980 Trailways started buying Model 10's with 740's. A lot of the old drivers didn't want anything to do with them and were bad mouthing them bad. Then they drove one. Couldn't get them back in an 05 after that ---- much grumbling if they got assigned one. I remember one that said the "D" on the shifter means "Done had a stick shift and Don't want another".
Just a quick note about size....
We are a family of ten but the two oldest kids are out of the house. We have a 4107 with the front hump raised up to level the roof and it's only 35 ft long. We are planning on a two rear bedroom with a side isle and a large bunk above the drivers area. The farthest room with be or queen bedroom. Next room with be three bunks. Yes it will be tight but we figure it's only going to be used for sleeping and cooking. We want to travel to see things and be outside! We will be towing our 10 passenger sprinter with it. We chose a 35' for the exact reason you did as well. A lot of state parks limit to 35' max and we want to fit more places to see more things! :-):-)
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You guys wouldn't believe the places we can get into with a 40 foot bus. The campground we are at right now is the tightest I've ever been in. It's tight. Unhook the toad and squeeze in tight. I can't imagine having 5 feet less....after fulltiming 5 years. You guys are brave and so easy!
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Great post! I just have 3 things to say, if you are getting a bus, do these things:
Listen to Luvrbus (Clifford)
Listen to RJ
Get to know Luke at US Coach for parts and repairs. (In NJ)
Combined, these 3 people have about 9 million years of experience in this and can steer you the right way.
I absolutely mean no offense to all the other fantastic contributors to this forum. If you want to know about buses, this is the place to be!
Quote from: daddyoften on March 15, 2016, 06:37:04 PM
We have a 4107 with the front hump raised up to level the roof and it's only 35 ft long. We are planning on a two rear bedroom with a side isle and a large bunk above the drivers area.
John & Deb -I'd completely forgotten about this fellow's project! But it sounds like he's on to something that might work for you.
Mom & Dad in the back, with a queen bed sideways (headboard against the driver's side wall.) Daughter's room with an upper twin bunk and desk/workstation/storage/closet below, possibly pocket doors for privacy in both bedrooms.
Head next, keeping with a side aisle to maximize space utilization for the shower. Most folk who have seen my 5C are amazed at the size of my shower, compared to other 35' rigs. This is especially a consideration for the ladies on board!
After head, small galley with fridge, convection microwave plus a two-burner induction cooktop, bar sink and as much counter space as can be squeezed in. Most folk are for-going an oven nowadays, but you might prefer to have one.
Small living room area, may or may not have room for a standard fold-out couch/bed, depends on rear room and galley sizes. Maybe 2 or 3 really nice recliners instead?
Luke at US Coach in NJ may still have a seated 35-foot MC-5C with an 8V71/4-spd powertrain for sale. There was a blue one there when I stopped in to have my coach serviced last year. You would have to do a roof raise to meet your height criteria, but that's not too difficult a project on that vintage MCI if you can do the work yourself. Check out Craig Shepard's site for a well-documented similar project: www.gumpydog.com (http://www.gumpydog.com). Luke's number, which you should program into your phone, is 1-888-262-2434. If you call him about the MCI (or any others he might have available,) please let him know I referred you.
Quote from: Runcutter on March 15, 2016, 05:18:40 PM
RJ has an article on shifting, and I believe he's been known to travel to teach.
Yes I have. PM me for more info.
FWIW & HTH. . .
:)
John & Deb -
Look what popped up on my Facebook feed:
https://mcallen.craigslist.org/cto/5413989659.html
McAllen is near Brownsville, TX.
Just a thought.
FWIW & HTH. . .
:)
I have never been sorry about getting a 40ft bus. I wish I had the money to buy a MCI102C3. Instead, I bought an AMGeneral transit bus. It has 6'10" headroom, 102" wide (the extra 6" is very noticeable). True it has only 22" of under storage area, not really suitable for full timing. But, I've squeezed in everything I needed-130gal fuel, 130gal water, 85gal gray, 45gal black, 20gal propane, 2-8D deep cycle house batteries, 10kw Powertech gen, etc.
I drove 1.3 million miles trucking-always with a 13spd manual (the best manual in my opinion [except maybe an 18]). When converting my Kenworth to the motorhome, I took out the 13spd manual and had an Allison HT740 installed. I just wished I had had that transmission when I was driving truck cross country. Really and truly a joy to drive. Good Luck, TomC
you really need to throw a figure out there.. Haven't ever had a campground throw a tape on a 40 ft vs 35 ft bus. Most can't tell year as some have a ten year old limit.(usually higher end camp grounds). I have a 45ft ex entertainer with very high ceilings and 4 full bays for storage. The steering on that series is tighter than my last 40ft coach. 46ft radius. I know your here for input so we know what you want to do with it..But how much$$$ is to much? By the way in Indiana a state park cost $33 a night. with just elect-no sewer or water at site. Bob
Tommmmmy, Grumpy, Oh buddy!....LOL
RJ interesting find 5Csaudie Like mine kind of. except i have never seen one yet that has a 8V-71 in it. most have the 6V-71. The ad also says more cooling ability in the engine but we know that isn't true, As you and JC discovered on our's.
John and Deb welcome to the world of Busnutishness.
I own and re converted a 1979 5C Saudie Coach 35 feet long with an Automatic MT 644 Same as RJ's drive train.
It is a good Bus but mine also have the center door fixed and taken out before I got it.
If you decide on a 35 foot 5C, good Bus to convert I would look for one with a 6V92 Turbo Like JC has. A whole lot more power than mine. I agree with the automatic much nicer and less maintenance. It can be a little tight at times but you can also make it your own to live in and is a lot easier to get in to tight places. If i knew then what I know now , we would have bought a 102C3 period. Bigger taller and wider. It would have had a 8V92 Turbo with automatic like Tom V's. It's all a personal choice. don't get so excited that you miss the original plan and your needs. It's all fun and such but in the end it is costly to maintain and keep up but well worth the fuss if you decide to do it.
What ever you guys decide to buy enjoy and have fun!... ;D ;D
Dave5Cs
http://sellmyrv.today/listing.php?listing_id=98723 (http://sellmyrv.today/listing.php?listing_id=98723)
Has lots of cool stuff already in place.
120+ gal of fresh water & more than that for waste water - longer time between having to hook up.
Washer & dryer on board will be handy indeed when full timing.
Ceiling height may not be enough, But - don't underestimate the benefits of a quality purpose built unit.
Good luck in your search.
I hope you find the one that you all LOVE. Always easier to deal with issues if everyone likes it. ;D
I'am on the road with wifi only once or twice a day. Driving home from DFW TX. Bus doing awesomely. Battling head winds. In Gr Falls MT. Home tomorrow. My 5C has MC9 front and rear caps, with a straight roof joining them. It results in about a 8 1/2" roof raise. Ample room for insulation and head room. The 6V92 and Allison HT740 are great.
We're I you, I would be looking for the latest, best bus you can afford. For me, it would be a MCI 102 D3. I am an MCI guy. 40' long. They turn sharper than the old 35'. If you can fit a 35 footer somewhere, a 40' will fit too. They have 4 stroke engines: S 60, Cat, or Cummins. And an automatic. The manuals are so 20th century... I really like shifting them, but an auto is so much better. Also, you will have a really hard time re-selling a manual: nobody wants them anymore. The D3 is quite affordable now. It is a simple basic coach.
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Oh and with a child, teen, definitely 40'
Whatever you get, enjoy.
JC
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Funny how several are commenting how they would have bought a 102C3 the first time had they known then what they know now. We too feel the same way. So we bought one to convert. I would say that if you want a 35' raised roof coach, an MC5 might be a great option. I posted the link to that Saudi model in McAllen TX a month ago and I'm sure the bus is still available. If it spent it's life down here, it's probably rust free. Clean chassis=much happier owners :)
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http://www.busnut.com/classifieds/index.php?a=2&b=2115 (http://www.busnut.com/classifieds/index.php?a=2&b=2115)
dave
I have an mc5 that may work for you. It needs a new home and it was only in service for five years and is pretty rust free. My wife and I lived in it for 2 years. It needs some work and the body is pretty original. It runs and drives pretty good. I think my next bus would be a D model and am seriously considering it. Let me know if you are interested. It's in Wyoming and I'm just taking offers.
My old 1974 long gone Crown Supercoach VIN 37317 was a 40 footer. Had 10 wheels. Consider it a dump truck or logging truck mounted under a School Bus Body. Had the true tandem drive with an additional inter differential lock up air switch.
We actually took it to Crescent City CA once from Cave Junction down through the Smith River Canyon. Handled fine. Even took it onto the beach sand for a bit. Had a little bit of concern with the front tires plowing, but the rears floated fine.
Crazy? Probably. The towing bill if stuck would have been astronomically high. Once up to about 10 mph, floated across the firm beach sand fine. DO NOT TRY THIS with a transit coach. The Roadranger has close gears, but not that close.
Several times we cruised Forest Service dirt roads with tight turns and steep grades. The Crown from a dead stop handled 12% grades easily ... starting in second gear. My point is that thinking outside the box does has its advantages. Crown Supercoach.
http://sellmyrv.today/listing.php?listing_id=186055 (http://sellmyrv.today/listing.php?listing_id=186055)
A whole lot of coach for the price . . . $16,000.
hi John, what great advice your getting, can't get any better advice about 5Cs than Dave, RJ and JC, my 5A was a great bus, power was the issue for me, yes 102C3s are a great platform, however getting into tight spaces even easier, as Clifford and others will testify, is the MCI102D3 with tag steering! Clifford says he can get his 45' in places my C3 at 40' couldn't turn into easily and my 35 '5A would take more than 1 pass to park, tom, lvmci...
^ I agree 100%
Just budget $$$ to keep that steerable tag working, aligned and happy. :-/
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As long as your not coming into the parks in N.H Maine or Vermont I can agree with the turning aspect of the bigger coach . But we go into the state parks here and they were designed long ago. Our 4106 with no ac on top and we have trees rubbing all over . People look at me with wonder! They always sayin how did you get that in here ! Thank god it's just 2 of us though because room ..... We sometimes bring one of the kids (all grown now) wknd is fine fulltime NOT. I would love a bigger coach but up in the north east it only works for bigger campgrounds here . Jmho though not sayin if you don't care bout paint and things being ripped off coach you would be fine lol
Not to be argumentative with the guy who posted about high gearing in highway coaches, you are absolutely right, my 4104 with stock 4-speed could be a little lower in first, and reverse is waaaay too tall. Almost like second! Definitely not easy for precision backing, definitely not uphill. I like the comment "stab and coast"!
However, my '86 Prevost XL came to me with the (I think) OEM 5-speed with creeper. It will climb a tree in creeper and it feels like reverse is the same. I guess I could look it up, but I like it.
Blue Bird made 31, 33, 35ft front engine motorhomes in the 70's and 80's. Excellent coaches-except for the Caterpillar 3208's that were used. If you find one that the engine has been up graded, grab it. The other coach I'd consider is an older Newell. Both Blue Bird and Newell are the only motorhomes I'd consider outside a bus or truck conversion.
The all time best coach now is the MCI 102D3 with Series 60 Detroit. Bite the bullet and spend the money-you won't be disappointed. Good Luck, TomC
Regarding camping in the Northeast with coaches, I agree that some thought needs to go into what height and length your coach is, and being selective as to which campgrounds you go to. I used to live in Northern New Hampshire prior to being transplanted to Ohio, and I have taken my first Eagle back there to camp. I had the advantage though, that I had scouted out my favorite campgrounds in previous years with smaller vehicles. I surprised several campground managers when I showed up with my Eagle at "primitive" campsites, but I already had been there and knew which roads would work, and which sites had enough space. One of my favorites is the campground on the southern edge of Lake Umbagog (Cambridge, NH) on the Maine border. I had made a reservation and paid well in advance, (in 2000) and showed up after dark because of a storm delay. I pulled in down the dirt road staying in the center to avoid low branches (12' clearance then), and I stopped just short of the campsite to get out and scout. The campground had been a private one for years, but in 1998 it became Umbagog Lake State Park. The park manager's residence was just to my left side, and he came running out because he thought some idiot had pulled up in a diesel truck. He wanted to know what I was doing here, and I was crazy, etc. I simply said I have a paid reservation for site #3, right over there (I shined my flashlight on it), and I stopped here to check the clearance on that overhead wire (shined on it) that goes across the road here. That shut him up. I pulled in quickly into a level spot within a 100 ft. or so of the beach with a nice view of the lake, and close to a boat launch. By the way, I was also pulling a Series III Land Rover behind me. I did not raise the roof on either of my Eagles for precisely such situations, besides, I am 5' 9", and it does not matter. High 45' coaches look awesome, and have stretching room, but you are not getting into #3 at Lake Umbagog, which is beautiful, and has nesting Bald Eagles along the shore, and lots of fish.
Lots of great comments - thank you for all the input. I see there is no shortage of polarization in the bus community. :)
Several folks have posted links and we're finding new websites to search - much appreciated!
We like hearing the "if I had to do it again with what I know now" comments. They are quite helpful as hindsight gives one a great advantage. We hope to be in a similar boat someday.
The idea of buying a bus, finding a good choice, and then figuring out how to decide to jump in is a bit overwhelming, but this process should arm us with the necessary knowledge to (hopefully) make a reasonable choice.
The search continues... hopefully we'll find something in the next 3-6 months, that's our timeline.
Deb
I've been looking at the Newells several folks recommended. Lots of people seem to regard Newells highly though I don't know much about them. The newer ones have always been so long I didn't look at them much. However I see several 35 ft ones from the 70s and 80s that look pretty nice.
Any body know anything about their interior height and the feasibility of raising the roof on one?
Also, any ideas of how much (say compared to a 4106) basement storage they have?
Deb, I just tried hard to find a Newell 35' that had a raised roof. I spent a ton of time looking at google images and no luck. Can someone vouch for how feasible a roof raise on a vintage 35' Newell might be?
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Are the Newells framed and skinned like the GMCs?
Also, when thinking about interior redesigns would folks say it's easier to work on paper or to run a basic CAD type program (a free or inexpensive one)? I used a CAD program long ago, can't recall the name though... We've been talking about a lot of ideas on how to configure things given the basic expectation that we'll be 96" wide and 35' long with an interior height of about 76" and it'd be useful to see them more visually.
There are a couple of Newell sites you can join and ask away or call Newell in Miami Ok they are good about giving information on older Newells.You are dealing with a bus board there are only a couple of Newell owners here fwiw
ah... thanks for the heads up. I didn't realize the exact difference for Newells. I'll take a peak at some of their forums.
We still believe a bus is our best choice, but are open to options. The biggest difference we've seen is just the feel of an old bus verses a traditional motorhome... I don't know exactly what it is, but the motorhomes just feel so ...flimsy? I guess that's the best term. At least that's been our observations with the under $100,000 new type units. Even in the used market we haven't been that impressed with the build quality until you get to the *really* expensive brands. The whole experience makes me think of the three little pigs and the house built of sticks that the wolf blew down verses bricks (older buses). :)
And for John, safety in crashes and the weight capacity of a bus verses a motorhome have been the biggest factors.
Plus old buses are just cool. :)
Edit: Grammar!
Newell has always been able to compete with buses they are built from the ground up with a frame so could Vogue with their V5000 it was built from the ground up but it's a 45ft.I would love to have a Vogue V6000
Interesting situation I was in today. A friend of mine was parked in his 40ft S&S next to mine and I noticed how much it was vibrating and how loud it was inside at idle. Just a complete different feel than our bus.
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Quote from: Scott Bennett on March 20, 2016, 02:47:34 PM
Interesting situation I was in today. A friend of mine was parked in his 40ft S&S next to mine and I noticed how much it was vibrating and how loud it was inside at idle. Just a complete different feel than our bus.
Have you ever driven a S&S? The first time I did, I actually was thinking it was going to shake apart... haha It's like driving a big U-Haul. I've ridden in Prevost and Van Hool buses several times as well as a couple of older Blue Birds. The difference is night and day. I haven't been in a moving GMC to judge, though the engine was running and sounded great. :) I love the sound of the old Detroit Diesels. We once took a 34' rental down to the Keys. If we went over 50 MPH, the person trying to nap on the back bed was catching 1-2 feet of air on bumps! The bad roads would really get the whole thing oscillating or on a funky harmonic of the shocks and it was like riding in cocktail shaker. We've had all sizes, but the 24' Sprinter chassis was our favorite. It was much, much better than the longer truck built S&S, but even we couldn't squeeze into 24' fulltime!
Deb
You can get a whole lot of motorhome for under $100,000 with an older Newell.
Luvrbus is correct, Newells are built with a truss frame & the skin is riveted on. The interior walls in mine are ~1/2" plywood. It is very solid & quiet riding down the road. At almost 30 years old, the cabinetry is still solid & tight.
The only problem with any of my cabinetry is confined to the rear wall wardrobe at the head of the bed - the 2 foot square mirrored doors were too heavy & the hinges broke &/ or broke the bit of wood they were attached to. Any other issues were resolved by adjusting a few of the hinges.
Mine is 6'6" to the ceiling with 2 basement A/Cs & 2 roof top.
As for raising the roof, I'd think a Newell would lend itself well to that. However, before I would do a roof raise, I'd put ducted roof airs on with a insulated duct mounted outside on the roof to eliminate head knockers inside.
Deb I've never actually ridden in one nor driven one. This was my first time going inside one that was even idling. Wasn't impressed much. Nice coach but didn't feel nearly as solid as our MCI 9. Kyle said his Newell was 6'6" interior height. Is that enough for you guys or would you still need a roof raise?
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Good advice here. Fuel mileage might be a factor if you are driving several hundred miles every day, but I don't know of any full-timer that does. Even if you are traveling all of the time an automatic is worth it. I can appreciate wanting to stay in places that have length limits. That is one of the reasons I have a 4106. I have had my bus length questioned only one time at the Grand Canyon where there was a 30' limit. They asked us how long my bus was and my wife responded before I could with "I don't know the length". That was a truthful answer because my wife has no idea how long the bus is. Before I could even process what was going on the Park Ranger dropped the issue and let us stay. I think most State and National parks have limits on how long you can stay, so are you as a full timer really going to be packing up and moving every fews days? Most likely not. If I was a FT'er my needs would be different and I would agree with all of the others here, look for a good 40'. Every decision will be some sort of compromise, I would not compromise on comfort. That means Automatic, high roof, 40', large storage bays. Good luck with your search.
Quote from: Scott Bennett on March 20, 2016, 06:17:44 PMKyle said his Newell was 6'6" interior height. Is that enough for you guys or would you still need a roof raise?
That would be an awesome interior height! John would be willing to do anything 6'4" or better. I told him he can cook in slippers if he has to! :P
Quote from: Barn Owl on March 20, 2016, 07:33:09 PMGood advice here. ... Every decision will be some sort of compromise, I would not compromise on comfort.
That's where the height issue comes in - comfort. As for length... I've been a die hard MINI fan for 14 years and we've enjoyed downsizing and learning to travel smaller. It's actually made travel a lot more enjoyable. So we're continuing to pare down with the expectation that having less stuff will help us live a bigger life. I could care less about having 15 pairs of shoes (all three of us are that way), though I must admit I'm fond of my various cooking tools, appliances, and gadgets. :)
Deb
Quote from: Escape Velocity on March 20, 2016, 08:17:28 PM
That would be an awesome interior height!
Deb
It is indeed. ;D
You guys are trying to compare race horses to mules on some of the RV's sure the entry level 40 ft Rv's are junk but you get into the higher end like Newell,Country Coach,Beaver,Foretravel and Vogue there is no comparison as to the entry level but they are not cheap Newell is approaching 2 mil and Foretravel are in the 1.5 mil range new
If given a choice I would rather drive my A model than my 5. Even in a cross wind it drives nice. It's harder to drive my 5 manual transmission because it's so quiet up front it's hard to hear what's happening and I have to shift it by the speedometer. The tall 1 gear doesn't help either in tight areas. The 2 stroke sound is great but I think I would rather have a 4 stroke. Mostly for the repair ability. If your younger like I am, I believe it'll be just as cool to have a 50 year old bus then, as it is having one now.
Newell only makes around 30 to 40 coaches per year - 90 percent of those are custom built to the buyer's specifications. Most come with all of the original paperwork. The guy that bought mine new had the dash lowered 1-1/2". I think I would prefer it higher, However I do like ALL of the other choices they made.
I would suggest that you make the effort to go see some of the older high end coaches - you may be surprised at what you will find. I looked at 3 Newells, drove the 3rd one home. They were all nice. They were all different. They all had aged very well.
Mine has the side bath, center hall with a wardrobe closet opposite the bath. Every one that has seen ours comments about how spacious & roomy the bath is.
I would caution about too many overhead cabinets, there aren't any in my salon and it feels bigger than some with slides.
Don't underestimate the benefits of the side entry - really changes the personality of the floor plan.
Get out and drive some & let us know what your thoughts are!
Good Luck!