Hi all,
As I will be in Detroit on Monday, and will be needing to start the bus in below 32 degree temps (looks like between 28 - 32 degrees), are there any special hints for this kind of starting? (non-ddec 6 v92) Normally I wouldn't be too worried about this as 28 doesn't seem all that cold, but I do have to be at the shop by 8 am. My block heater repair is not finished so that isn't an option. The bus really hasn't had trouble starting before, but of course, I begin to worry at the last minute. Where do I get the starting fluid ( ether ? ) ? Do the truck stops like Flying J carry such an item? Would it be better to not take any chances and just idle it through the night? Am I worrying too much?
Thanks folks!
Kind Regards, Phil
To be on the safe side I would idle it so you don't have to worry ;)
WalMart sells it as Starting Fluid.
My 671 starts everya time with no problem but don't know the setup for a 8V71 or 92.
The 671 has a small cup into which I spray a very small amount directly into the air box and walk around to the front and start up.
This sure beats spraying it into the air intake. I don't know if the 8V series has this nice setup.
I think I have a place where the ether egg used to be placed, is this where I would spray the Starting Fluid?
Thank you! Phil Lyons
Number one-make sure you have winterized Diesel-either from the pump or by putting in Diesel supplement bought from the truck stop. Once winterized, 28 degrees isn't especially cold. If you have strong batteries, you can do the short turn over wait method. Turn over the engine for about 5 seconds, wait 5 seconds, turn over for 5 seconds, wait 5 second, turn over again and the engine should be wanting to start. If nothing by the third attempt, use a short squirt of starting fluid. Believe me-28 degrees is NOT cold enough to keep the engine running all night. Sub zero-yes. Good Luck, TomC
Phil, eight hours @ 30 degrees is not long enough for it to completely cool off if the wind isn't blowing thru the radiator. If it is a piece of cardboard will help. Eight hours @ idel is a very long time for a 92 and I don't recommend that. I recommend everyone keep 2 cans of either with them @ all times. If you run out of fuel on the RR tracks and have some more fuel, 2 cans will prime the fuel system in a dire emergency if you know how. The engine does not care how you put the either in, so the fitting in the intake and the air pickup outside your coach work equally well. A couple of 1 second shots in the cup inside or a 2 or 3 second shot into the air pickup pipe from outside work equally well.
The cup for the capsules will not take in spray either! I paid for a road service call on the way back from Sturgis and the guy couldn't get me started using that port. I tried after getting new batteries to no avail (it just sprayed back towards my face) I had to go through the air cleaner.
Thanks for the advice guys! I've printed off the thread & am taking it with me ;D I will post an update when I have some results. Weather doesn't look so good for the next couple of days, so I'll be taking it slooow.
Kind Regards, Phil
Ron
If you couldn't use the port to start it is plugged up going throught the air intake and through the filters takes a lot more cranking and hard on starter unscrew it and clean it out that is what it's for.
LarryH
I sure agree with the guys that are against letting it idle all night long for those relatively mild temperatures.
How about setting the alarm and getting up to let it run it for a bit to warm up during the night if it is really cold?
The short crank/rest system works well. Just hitting the starter for 10 - 12 seconds or more at a time lets the engine push the heat out the exhaust valve. Crank 3 seconds, let it sit for 5. Repeat, repeat, repeat. This lets the heat from compression soak into the metal.
For me, the last resort is starting fluid, but i have had to use it.
Best bet i think would be to just install a new block heater and be done with it. Takes very little time and it is the best solution.
Take care,
John Z
I am convinced. ;D Bus will NOT be idling through the night. I am getting too PARANOID! Bus has always started, even in cold weather - below 32 degrees - down into lower 20s. Below that, I don't mess with it too much.
I agree John - new block heater is the solution - especially living up north.
Looks like snow, sleet, freezing rain moving in for the trip to the shop tomorrow am. Nice. :o
Best Regards, I will keep everyone posted. Phil
Hello all.
Let's remember that our bus conversion had a previous commercial operator, and depending on the age of the coach, it was back when no one cared about fuel costs.
That virginal bride had a previous life as a well used street prostitute.
If your coach lived anywhere cold, anywhere hot, anywhere that no one bothered shutting it off, or left it running on purpose for climate control or to be sure it would provide service later, it was idled a lot.
It isn't going to harm anything that isn't already harmed to idle the coach for a night.
I might suggest an early start so that the smoke screen on pull out is covered by darkness!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I've spent 45 years in music business and in the 70s and 80s we never turn our bus off I've fast idled many days 24 hrs with a/c running. This was back in the days before gen sets were popular. We alway depended on bus air and heat. We had a 73 CM 4108 that went over 750,00 mile before engine replaced. I drove out of factory with 47 miles. Sure an 8V71 will waste more fuel today than a little Kabota. If I was in a weather condition I wouldn't think twice about flipin the fast idle and going to bed.
I have live in Michigan since 1937 till 1999....seen & use many ether starts....some results into repair works.
Only use ether if you have no other option to start in colds.
If block heater is not use, than leave on fast idle until you get back on road again.
Unless 40ºF or higher with good compression (average condition) & good injector (ultra fine spray) & good state of charge batteries with excellent connection thorough out the cranking circuits & good starter.....it should start.
Otherwise take your chances or gamble if it will start with little expense.
So....fast idle will keep your batteries warmer for extra strong starting power which is much stronger than cold batteries....and fast idling no harmer than shot of ether...and it ready to go when you are.
Block heater work great for me every time after 2 hours plug in.
I sometime use standby generator whenever no hook up available.
By the way...I have seen many Greyhound & Indian Trail buses running idling while waiting hours for next driver in cold Michigan.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
Hey Jerry - Great to hear from you!
On this bus, fast idle doesn't work. How important is fast idle to the bus when looking at idling for an extended period of time?
Kind Regards, Phil
From what I have understood, fast idle is critical for extended idle to minimize deposit buildup in the cylinders. It also keeps the oil pressure at a healthier level. My engine manual advises against extended idle time, but like has been noted, every former commercial coach or transit has idled a lot in its life.
On my 8V71, I have that little cup too. I tried spraying down it with a regular spray can but it didn't seem to work.
Mine also has an ether start on it so I used the upside down big can in it's holder and ran a plastic airshock line over to the cup. It coils up so i don't leave it in the cup. But when I use it, I stretch the hose over and shove it down a couple inches and it does the trick. But I would also suggest it as a last resort. My motor is tired so I have to use it more than I want to.
Getting it started,
Chaz
Another vote for the block heater over letting it idle all night, is that i doubt i could sleep very well with the noise and worrying about exhaust,,, unless i was very tired, or the prior night's cocktail hour was a particularly good one! I run the genset each morning for a bit while making breakfast, so it is just an easy task to plug in the block heater when it is needed.
Hello.
Let's remember Phil's original problem.
He has to go out in the cold to where he has no external support and he has not get his winter starting aids (block heater, etc) installed yet.
Yes, it is nice to have alternative methods to warm the ol' Detroit up before starting it, but what does a busnut in the earlier stages of the job, or one who finds himself with defective starting aids, or right now in the souther USA, with freak weather that the intended use of the coach was not designed for?
Phil, you can wedge the throttle open just a bit either at the pedal or in the linkage at the rear to bring the revs up a few, if you would like to, when the fast idle is not functioning.
One of the big issues for fast idle has more to do with temperature, and the production of electricyt for the big blowers. On base idle, the coach heating will suck the heat right out of the motor, and run the batteries down. Leaving it running below 150 degrees or worse, in the sub-arctic, and the batteries weakened. High idle helps compensate for all the things we could list would be bad about running at low temps.
When I did not have other methods of staying warm, I found good results with my 8V71 running on base idle, with the Webasto engaged, overnight, Parked slightly nose down, (gravity heating? ;D) defroster on, sleeping in rear under all the blankets. In the AM, temp gauge read operating temp of 180, the interior was cool, but that was what I was after rather than listen to the big coach fans and the high idle and quite to my surprise, little smoke on pulling back onto the highway.
Back in those years, the truckers were just idling theirs and pulling up the covers.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I am of the opinion that the harm caused by occasional overnight idling is mostly an old wives tale that keeps being repeated by those who have heard it. I have never seen anything in writing, by a knowledgeable source, which indicates that overnight idling really does that much harm. Especially only one night as Phil needs to do.
I know that I did it several times when I was having Webasto problems and was waiting on a repair part. Temperatures were in the low 20's at night and I set the high idle at about 1000 rpm. Still had to throw a blanket over the radiator to try and get the temperature up some. I really did not have any great amount of smoke in the morning either. For 50 years or more truckers have been idling their trucks overnight to keep warm and many of these truckers are Independent Owner Operators, not fleet drivers.
I would really like for some of these people crying wolf to come up with some certified data, or forget about it.
Richard
I don't believe there's anyone in the trucking world or the large diesel business that doesn't know that idling a diesel engine for extended periods is detrimental to the engine (not to mention the environment) and there's more information about that just on the Internet than one person ought to have time to read (and even more in trucking-related periodicals). It's not a matter of whether it's bad, it is; it's a matter of how bad. It's a compromise and one I made for several years in my own truck (and I was an owner/operator); either idle the engine or die from exposure. The engine lost. The day I picked up my first brand-new truck the head mechanic came out to go over it, looked me straight in the eye and said "It's your truck, do what you want; just know every hour you idle this engine is the equivalent wear of running down the road two hours".
To this day I'd idle (on fast idle) my engine overnight if it meant being safe or comfortable (which includes being able to get the thing started in the morning) and not worry about it; I just wouldn't do it on a regular and on-going basis (to say nothing of the fact that the practice is becoming illegal in many areas). There are lots of ways nowadays to not have to idle a diesel overnight that have not been readily available over the last several decades and many more OTR trucks are being equipped with APUs and such. The Webasto exists because they figured out in Europe a long time ago that it was the best way to heat a truck and engine versus idling the main engine. If you idle overnight you can just consider your engine for the moment to be the world's most expensive personal space heater.
You're not going to kill the enigne in one session or over many but just knowing there's a better way makes it hard to do on a forever basis.
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on January 15, 2007, 09:23:03 AM
I am of the opinion that the harm caused by occasional overnight idling is mostly an old wives tale that keeps being repeated by those who have heard it. I have never seen anything in writing, by a knowledgeable source, which indicates that overnight idling really does that much harm. Especially only one night as Phil needs to do.
Busted Knuckle lost a 6V92 in his MCI after working a fairly long Katrina contract. The bus was idled a lot to provide A/C there. I don't how good the engine was before that, but I'm sure BK could fill in the details.
Brian Elfert
My bus is still sitting at C&J Bus Repair because it is 10 degrees right now and I don't even want to try starting it without any preheating aid. I'm also not picking it up because we just got 6 inches of snow overnight. It should be in the 20s in a few days and I will pick it up then.
I should have had a block heater installed when the coolant was drained, but I didn't. I expected to get my Proheat installed. Best laid plans you know.
Brian Elfert
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on January 15, 2007, 09:23:03 AM
I would really like for some of these people crying wolf to come up with some certified data, or forget about it.
Richard
I personally have idled all night to stay warm once and noticed no problem. And like I said, all former comercial coaches and transits have idled extensively already. But I don't doubt for a minute that it can shorten engine life. But here is some information from the manual and an article from Fleetmag.com citing a study:
Quote from: Page 68, RTS Coach Operating Manual (C-8724-A)
ENGINE IDLING
Avoid unnecessary or prolonged idling. The engine cools faster when allowed to idle in extreme outside temperatures. This can cause deposits to form in the comustion chamber, on exhaust valves, and around piston rings.
If you plan to park for more than a minute or two or to leave the coach shut off the engine. If idling is absolutely necessary due to the nature or conditions of the run, try to maintain 1000 engine rpm (Fast Idle).
Article from
Fleetmag.com - "Shutting Down", by Mark Gehred-O'Connell
http://fleetmag.com/articles/2004/fm0304/fm0304_02.htmQuoteAccording to Natural Resources Canada (NRCan), when an engine idles for extended periods, engine oil becomes contaminated more quickly, because of the large amounts of intake air. At 600 rpm, excess air in the combustion cycle cools the cylinder liners, resulting in incomplete combustion and condensation of unburned fuel on cylinder walls. These deposits are drawn into the oil sump where they contaminate the engine oil and reduce its lubricity.
NRCan studies show that prolonged idling can reduce the operating life of diesel engine oil by 75 percent, from 600 engine-hours to 150. NRCan also finds that idling produces carbon deposits and unburned fuel residues that accumulate and can damage spark plugs, fuel injectors, valve seats and piston crowns.
Studies performed by Caterpillar, Inc. indicate that low engine operating temperatures at idle will allow water vapor to form and condense in the crankcase. The water in the crankcase will combine chemically with sulfur oxides and result in sulfuric acid. The acid can damage bearings, cylinders, piston rings and valve stems. According to the company, this damage could result in a 15 percent reduction in engine life.
According to my DDEC my bus has idled more than it has been driven.
Good info, keep it coming!
Keeping it in perspective, running the engine to drive the coach is harmful to it, what with all that heat and wear and load....
I'd suggest that you will find written material from reputable sources that a minute of idling is equivalent to a minute of highway driving, so your mechanic wasn't far off, and he was trying to be helpful to a young business man!
Thanks Capt'n!!!
False prophets and lesser Gods will be exposed, the truth is out there!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: belfert on January 15, 2007, 09:51:12 AM
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on January 15, 2007, 09:23:03 AM
I am of the opinion that the harm caused by occasional overnight idling is mostly an old wives tale that keeps being repeated by those who have heard it. I have never seen anything in writing, by a knowledgeable source, which indicates that overnight idling really does that much harm. Especially only one night as Phil needs to do.
Busted Knuckle lost a 6V92 in his MCI after working a fairly long Katrina contract. The bus was idled a lot to provide A/C there. I don't how good the engine was before that, but I'm sure BK could fill in the details.
Brian Elfert
And I believe this is how a lot of the old wives tales got started. I agree that long term idling is not really good for the engine, or the environment, but I seriously doubt that a few weeks running at idle was the main cause for the engine failure.
At the radar stations I was once working at, we run the engine gen sets for literally days at a time with no load during bad weather. They were running at 1800 rpm instead of 1000, but I never ever heard of the failure of one because of this.
Richard
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on January 15, 2007, 10:09:42 AM
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on January 15, 2007, 09:23:03 AM
I would really like for some of these people crying wolf to come up with some certified data, or forget about it.
Richard
I personally have idled all night to stay warm once and noticed no problem. And like I said, all former comercial coaches and transits have idled extensively already. But I don't doubt for a minute that it can shorten engine life. But here is some information from the manual and an article from Fleetmag.com citing a study:
Quote from: Page 68, RTS Coach Operating Manual (C-8724-A)
ENGINE IDLING
Avoid unnecessary or prolonged idling. The engine cools faster when allowed to idle in extreme outside temperatures. This can cause deposits to form in the comustion chamber, on exhaust valves, and around piston rings.
If you plan to park for more than a minute or two or to leave the coach shut off the engine. If idling is absolutely necessary due to the nature or conditions of the run, try to maintain 1000 engine rpm (Fast Idle).
Article from Fleetmag.com - "Shutting Down", by Mark Gehred-O'Connell
http://fleetmag.com/articles/2004/fm0304/fm0304_02.htm
QuoteAccording to Natural Resources Canada (NRCan), when an engine idles for extended periods, engine oil becomes contaminated more quickly, because of the large amounts of intake air. At 600 rpm, excess air in the combustion cycle cools the cylinder liners, resulting in incomplete combustion and condensation of unburned fuel on cylinder walls. These deposits are drawn into the oil sump where they contaminate the engine oil and reduce its lubricity.
NRCan studies show that prolonged idling can reduce the operating life of diesel engine oil by 75 percent, from 600 engine-hours to 150 .
NRCan also finds that idling produces carbon deposits and unburned fuel residues that accumulate and can damage spark plugs, fuel injectors, valve seats and piston crowns.
Studies performed by Caterpillar, Inc. indicate that low engine operating temperatures at idle will allow water vapor to form and condense in the crankcase. The water in the crankcase will combine chemically with sulfur oxides and result in sulfuric acid. The acid can damage bearings, cylinders, piston rings and valve stems. According to the company, this damage could result in a 15 percent reduction in engine life.
You know, I am truly inclined to trust the studies performed by anyone that is concerned about spark plug life in a diesel engine.
And by my calculations 600 engine hours is equal to about 36,000 miles at 60 mph. Reduced by 75% that would be about 9,000 miles.
Who is this outfit anyhow?
Richard
I, along with everyone else, will agree that the block heater is the optimal solution. However, because of the way the original question was stated, we'll skip past that as an available alternative. I also won't enter the extended idle or ether debates. Instead I'll throw out another alternative as proposed at http://www.tejascoach.com/tejasoil.html#Cold
Take a suitable container such as one of those metal oil change pans. Fill it with charcoal and light it. Wait for the flames to die out. Then slide it under the engine block. Exercise caution to make sure flammable materials are kept far enough away (of course).
I've personally have never tried this, but I would think this should boost temperatures enough to make the start easier.
WEC4104
Natural Resources Canada is a department of the Canadian Federal Goverment.
The quote referred to "when an engine idles for an extended period of time" apparently is valid on both gasoline and diesel engines in regard to the components that it refers to.
Richard: Here is a link to one of their pages where they have a link to "ask the experts" so you may want to ask them questions about the study.
http://www.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/inter/products_e.html
Quote from: Stan on January 15, 2007, 01:13:00 PM
Natural Resources Canada is a department of the Canadian Federal Goverment.
The quote referred to "when an engine idles for an extended period of time" apparently is valid on both gasoline and diesel engines in regard to the components that it refers to.
Richard: Here is a link to one of their pages where they have a link to "ask the experts" so you may want to ask them questions about the study.
http://www.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/inter/products_e.html
Thanks for the link Stan, but I really do not think I want to get any more involved with this. Do Canandian diesels only get 600 hours of operation?
Richard
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on January 15, 2007, 12:52:00 PM
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on January 15, 2007, 10:09:42 AM
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on January 15, 2007, 09:23:03 AM
I would really like for some of these people crying wolf to come up with some certified data, or forget about it.
Richard
I personally have idled all night to stay warm once and noticed no problem. And like I said, all former comercial coaches and transits have idled extensively already. But I don't doubt for a minute that it can shorten engine life. But here is some information from the manual and an article from Fleetmag.com citing a study:
Quote from: Page 68, RTS Coach Operating Manual (C-8724-A)
ENGINE IDLING
Avoid unnecessary or prolonged idling. The engine cools faster when allowed to idle in extreme outside temperatures. This can cause deposits to form in the comustion chamber, on exhaust valves, and around piston rings.
If you plan to park for more than a minute or two or to leave the coach shut off the engine. If idling is absolutely necessary due to the nature or conditions of the run, try to maintain 1000 engine rpm (Fast Idle).
Article from Fleetmag.com - "Shutting Down", by Mark Gehred-O'Connell
http://fleetmag.com/articles/2004/fm0304/fm0304_02.htm
QuoteAccording to Natural Resources Canada (NRCan), when an engine idles for extended periods, engine oil becomes contaminated more quickly, because of the large amounts of intake air. At 600 rpm, excess air in the combustion cycle cools the cylinder liners, resulting in incomplete combustion and condensation of unburned fuel on cylinder walls. These deposits are drawn into the oil sump where they contaminate the engine oil and reduce its lubricity.
NRCan studies show that prolonged idling can reduce the operating life of diesel engine oil by 75 percent, from 600 engine-hours to 150 .
NRCan also finds that idling produces carbon deposits and unburned fuel residues that accumulate and can damage spark plugs, fuel injectors, valve seats and piston crowns.
Studies performed by Caterpillar, Inc. indicate that low engine operating temperatures at idle will allow water vapor to form and condense in the crankcase. The water in the crankcase will combine chemically with sulfur oxides and result in sulfuric acid. The acid can damage bearings, cylinders, piston rings and valve stems. According to the company, this damage could result in a 15 percent reduction in engine life.
You know, I am truly inclined to trust the studies performed by anyone that is concerned about spark plug life in a diesel engine.
And by my calculations 600 engine hours is equal to about 36,000 miles at 60 mph. Reduced by 75% that would be about 9,000 miles.
Who is this outfit anyhow?
Richard
Regarding the 600 hours, that was the engine oil life figure, not engine life. Good point about the spark plugs. Perhaps their study covered both diesel and gasoline engines.
An environmentalist organization or department of the government may not be the best source for information like that but I do consider my GM RTS II operating manual to be fairly reliable. ;) Also there are a number of references in Google to Caterpillar workig with the US DOE on an idle reduction research project which, without dedicating more research to the topic, may provide some credibility to the paragraph in the article citing their results.
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on January 15, 2007, 12:52:00 PM
Who is this outfit anyhow?
Richard
It's my tax dollars at work. Doncha wish you were a Canuck?
WEC4104
Good information on the site you posted, thanks a Million.
Gary
Regarding the 600 hours, that was the engine oil life figure, not engine life.
Very good point I missed that little word oil. Now I am wondering if 600 hours for an oil change is a good number? Does anybody change oil based on an elapsed time running meter as opposed to a odometer?
Richard
As a follow up to the cold start thread - early this morning the bus started almost instantly. I believe earlier in the thread it was noted that the bus engine retains heat for hours. That must have been what happened. At 33 degrees, there was absolutely NO problem starting up the bus.
All the same, I had purchased a can of starter fluid at Flying J - just in case!
While I was at the Vehicle Clinic they told me about a new add-on they have available which completely automates the process of adding a pre-mixed amount of ether to start the bus. This pre-mix is sent into the system automatically when a sensor determines the temperature is at 40 degrees or below. No danger of the driver sending the wrong amount of ether into the engine. This is probably not for us as I'm going to get the block heater going, and we don't spend enough time starting the bus at extremely cold temps. But it did sound interesting, and didn't look very complex.
Thanks for all the ideas - I have definetly learned a lot about cold starting.
Best Regards - Phil
Richard,
I don't think I drive enough to run up anywhere near 600 hours before I change the oil. I have just been changing it every year whether it needs it or not.
600 hrs at an average 80 kph would be 48,000 km. I change at 20,000 km & my oil samples say it's not time to change yet but I've never tried going longer. Twice as long? Who knows.
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on January 15, 2007, 04:42:03 PM
Regarding the 600 hours, that was the engine oil life figure, not engine life.
Very good point I missed that little word oil. Now I am wondering if 600 hours for an oil change is a good number? Does anybody change oil based on an elapsed time running meter as opposed to a odometer?
Richard
A hobbs meter is used on many types of machinery in order to keep track of oil usage.
Off road logging and construction equipment, locomotives, refrigeration units, generators, mining equipment, just to name a few.
Dallas
Hi Guy's,
Here is a link to a Honeywell hobbs meter and assy's..
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/hss/hobbscorp/family.asp
Nick-