I'm working on a 4106 for somone. I was checking the fluids when I discovered that her coolant level was super low. There is no factory heat lines it's just the 8v71 with a v730 cooler as well. Surge tank was completely empty, I then pulled the temp sensor in the thermostat housing and what do you know it was bone dry. No coolant even in the thermostat housing. It's not broke down, I'm here fixing a brake issue and some oil leaks for her. She does not know when it was last checked but never by her. She's had it to a few shops and the engine is a new professionally just over one year old engine. No coolant in oil and no big signs of leaking. I really think it's been low for a long time. I did find a small hole in a tube but it's a tiny tiny leak. She has been having a trans problem I assume is an over heat issue. It would make sense. Check out this video of how low the coolant is. It was shocking and she just drove it like 1500 miles. Not a drop of green coolant anywhere on the engine. I pulled the top hose on the large tube that connects the bottom head to the thermostat housing and no coolant came out. I pulled the bottom hose top side and coolant came out. So the level of coolant in the engine is right at water pump height somewhere in between the two large hoses on that tube. I was shocked it is not damaged, it's still running and I suspect any lower and the water pump would have been dry and that would have been super bad. Oil level is full. I would have bet money that you could not run the engine that low but I guess you can. I added 6 gallons to fill the surge tank, and remember the factory heat lines are capped off so the capacity is greatly reduced. It's just the radiator, engine and v730 canister cooler.
Anyone else shocked it drove cross country like that? It's in Texas btw so it's not 20 below it was 60-70's. Pulling the temp sensor out of the t stat housing and not having coolant come out then not having a drop on the 3" probe was a very unique and surreal experience...
I'm trying to educate the owner and working to help her and other are too but it's hard when she uses the bus a lot and has very little mechanical abilities not the time to do the upkeep herself. She relies on shops from town to town who know nothing about old buses and either screw things up or are as unknoledgable as her on the old bus. She's an entertainer and about to get a newer prevost with a 4 stroke so at least other shops will be better suited to help her. Anyway not bashing her but she does need to hire a good person to maintain her bus for every trip. So this post is about the engine still running the other info was just some background so you can understand how it got like this with no one noticing. She knows how to check the oil and v730 fluid level, but when I asked her about the coolant she said she never checked it and no one ever showed her how. Yikes I'm going to show her how tomorrow. :)
Enjoy the video and knowing that a Detroit can survive this but it was a close one as the rear head height is right at that fluid level too. I never tested if a water pump would prime from a dry sump but maybe it could even work with less coolant but I won't be testing that on one of my engines....and chalk this experience up to extreme luck on the owners side.
Very low coolant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekiLqQhuaH4#)
Any chance it could have hidden damage just ready to show up? Like a head gasket that will blow in a few miles, a warped head that will fail to seal oil and water, liners that are overheated and damaged, etc. I'm a little concerned that just because it seems OK now, it's really not.
Of course but it did drive here without any issues and not knowing how long it's taken to get that low there are many unknowns. Where did it go and why. The mere fact that it starts and runs is a great sign for her luck though. I'd lean towards betting on her luck. Sad thing is that she will sell this bus soon with a $24,000 receipt for a new engine just over a year ago but I am going to tell her she really needs to reveal this maintaine issue with that disclosure because It would not be right. It certainly was not good for the engine and would devalue it greatly to me if I was buying it.
Thats good you found out, you saved a bunch of money. I am guessing they didn't have low surge tank switches on the tank. Always bothered me no temp means no conductor /coolant. lucky! that's worth writing a song about, much better than many songs
Floyd
Thinking nasty here. One question would be how long COULD have that engine run without hardly any water? Would not it have shown immediate overheat signals and damage? Why none? Could it be the Bus Conversion is fine with the very low coolant situation only being apparent now? Could the coolant level just now be low?
How could THAT happen? Human intervention? A nasty prank? Does she have enemies? How about vandals? I do not think a 4106 automatic compo would like running that low for more than 15 minutes. Not 1500 miles. Just me. Is there any way to test this prospect? What else could have been monkeyed with? Ouch indeed!
This is good reason to have a level gauge or sight glass on the header or surge tank. I ended up making mine out of high-temperature thick-wall silicone tube - I can now easily see exactly how much coolant is in the tank, and it's immediately obvious if the level has changed at all.
John
Scott I don't think it could've gone 1500 miles on low coolant. It had to have gotten hot recently and lost the coolant. I would fill it and see what happens next, like does it leak out without getting hot.
JC
I'm guessing you will see a significant leak once it is properly filled.
It's not leaking. It held the coolant all night. I ran it and no coolant loss while running. We will Test drive in the am and wash the engine. If only they would have ever checked it to have a point to go back to when it was full. I can't believe no one ever checked it, I thought maybe choo choo would have done it when the replaced the v730 a few months ago but they didn't change the cooler they left the old one on and from what I came across today what they did I don't have faith that they would have even checked the coolant level.
It more than likely got a big air pocket and blew the water out it happens, even adding 6 gals she still had over 14 gals without the front heater
Or again, a nasty prank? Where ever the evidence or lack of it goes, there you are? Also begs the question what else might have been monkeyed with? I tend sometimes to default to the dark side. Seems to have served me kinda well. Respectfully.
The only problem I have noticed is that the filler door did not seal. If it's not been checked in over a year, not pressurizing and could slosh out at first and evaporate and evacuate out slowly over a long time through that. I cut a gasket to seal tightly to the door. They honestly have never checked the coolant since that engine was put in over a year ago and drivin maybe 20,000 miles? Yes there is still about 10 gallons in the system but to be so low the thermostat housings are in air shocked me. It certainly is way less than optimal cooling. I won't know if it's pressurizing until this morning when we take it for a test drive. I've been working replacing oil lines and fixing a v730 leak that was a big mess.
Here is the cause of the v 730 leak. That little adatpter plate that you make to fit the round trans face to the adatpter plate, where you run a drain hose back to the pan was not sealed good and the drain was what I can only imagine intentionally plugged up by the installer. That trapped massive amounts of fluid up around the flywheel. I disconnected the hose and nothing came out. I loosened the plate and popped it off and it gushed out so much oil it was crazy. Usually only what's below the drain hole comes out so I only had a small rag on the ground to absorb it... My rag flowed away in a river or oil. It was a bit like using a band-aid to treat an elephant that stepped on a land mine. Good news is that since it's the cat bus they had plenty of kitty litter. And the bumper has one of those long rubber shields hanging below it that nearly touches ground, so there not really a way to get something in there in a hurry to stop the flood. Good surface prep and a working drain should fix the leak.
V730 no drain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-65a3Ot0Ccw#)
Those old flip caps are bad about leaking,I guess that is why CARB and the EPA are making people change over to the cap to be in compliance with their BS rules and regulations for oil,radiators and fuel tanks
Scott, let me just chime in here and say how really kind of you it is to be traveling the country working on people's buses for a pittance rate. You're a blessing to many I'm sure. And I know of a handful of folk you helped for nothing in return at all. If I could get you down to the valley Weslaco, TX area I'd have you take a gander at our sluggish 6v92 :) but you're a ways away.
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Maybe my next Texas trip Scott..... I just looked at that on a map and I didn't know part of Texas was damn near in Central America :) but I'd come. I love wrenching on buses. It's therapeutic for me. And I get an excuse to travel in my bus.
Lol. We will only be here for another month or so. We are headed up north after that. this summer I might swing by you in Indian
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Indiana
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Well it spewed out a lot of coolant today when it got hot about 200 miles into the trip while climbing a hill. After column it took 2.5 gallons
I asked them how hot it got. Answer "only 220-230". Ahhhhh only???
I guess because the gauge goes to like 275 that's why I got an only.
How fast were you going. ?? Idk we don't have a speedometer. So my guess 75-80 keeping up with other traffic.
8v71 v730 pretty heavy I do t know the weight but also pulling a toad
What we can do now is educate the driver a little more about 180 normal operation temp with occasional 190 to even 200 for short periods. How to climb grades slowed in lower gear.
Use temperature to regulate speed. I can upgrade her fan to an 8 blade I have. We can switch to transynd in the v730 that will help a couple degrees. I can inspect and rod out the radiator I bet it's partially blocked up. But these conditions the bus has been getting drivin in for a long period of time it's a miracle it's not toast. I can also make s Better shroud around the fan and seal it a little better. Misters can be added and the rear flap under the bumper has to go and add one aft of the wheels.
Scott, if the video you posted of the smoking DD belongs to that bus it is toasted just not well done yet ??? it would probably be a safe bet saying she cracked a head
This one came back to life today.... One stuck injector fixed and then primed and it started right up. One side smokes more than the other but after a little time on it I'll see what it does.
It's pretty bad @$#. 12v71T straight piped :) mc6
https://youtu.be/wxQqK9xtGuw
The 12v bus owner Carl was so funny. When it first started I just touched the throttle up a hair and he was ready to run for the hills. V
I knew the previous owner of that bus he worked for a John Deere dealer in Yukon Ok
It's still in OK he got it at the estate sale for crazy cheap price.
That is sweet! Just made my two stroke heart skip a beat. Who was blipping the throttle? You were just standing there and he walked away, so who was revving it and who shut it down?
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Sounds like a compression gas leak into the jacket water form my experience.
Quote from: Brassman on February 01, 2016, 06:41:51 PMSounds like a compression gas leak into the jacket water form my experience.
Caused by a crack in a head gasket from a cracked head that was overheated, or maybe a direct leak through the crack in the head itself (or maybe not that the head is cracked but warped from overneatng ... not that it matters, really.)
Scott, I'm the one in the blue coveralls. Carl the owner hits the starter and that's about it. I was on the governor controls. I just wanted to get it running and hear it for a few seconds on that initial start up and make sure it would run. Tomorrow we'll actually later today we will really get it going and create hopefully some totally awesome video. It also has a coolant leak but it's from a giant hose that goes to the radiator so until I got the cooling system full I didn't want to run it. Plus we only had one gallon of fuel in our can, and after we primed everything and ran it for those few seconds we didn't have much left to play with :) but.... We will have some fuel today and I plan on warming this baby up and creating some super loud videos. Get ready to,turn the volume up to 11
As for the 4106 It is still running but it clearly has some serious issues. The excessive white smoke at startup is the clear sign. She's planning on taking it to California and has a schedule to keep for her tour. She is getting a new bus soon but had planned on it in a couple months after this tour. She did a Kickstarter campaign and raised 150k for a new bus for her tour. It's a shame that new engine got destroyed. I worked on her bus once before but it was a structural body issue and I heard it run then over thanks giving when she moved it and I was shocked how it ran then. It was 30 deg that day I hopped it was just the cold that made it smoke and hard starting but when I arrived in Texas and saw it do it at 60 deg I was like uh ohh.... That low on coolant I was shocked it still ran. It's still got power but there is no way the heads are not damaged. There is no coolant in the oil and that the only good thing that might hold it together long enough to make it for her last ten or so cities. Detroits are tough so it might make it while it's wounded but it's going to have some serious hills headed to CA and I anticipate it being maybe a 50-70% chance of success if she baby's it but it all depends on how she tries to climb the hills with it. I've not seen or heard it run since the latest 230 but now that I got a running temperature out of her I have a lot more info. I asked several times how hot did it get. The only answer was oh it never got hot. No it never over heated, no it never overheats, no it's not hot. I'm guessing now the answer was just because the gauge never pegged out, a light never came on the dash that said "warning hot" or a steaming guiser like in a old move never shot out of the hood of the bus (which there is no hood and the radiator is in the back), but that's what means it never got hot. She is super a nice lady but knows very little about mechanical things on a bus or how to drive them differently than a car. One would have assumed after killing one engine and paying big money for another that would be a lesson learned but I guess not. She needs a full time driver for her show. I really like her and want to help so the next few months are going to be a challenge for that bus.
Guess what.. The bus is doa and won't start. I did think it would go further but I guess not.
Bummer. Time for a new bus :-/. Hey, post the 12v video already. I've been waiting around all day for it.
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https://youtu.be/yeN0dmUT4ds
On the 4106 not running I'm hoping it's just the shut down flapper deployed by someone not knowing what they were doing. The driver tried starting it with starting fluid. Not a big deal as I was going to suggest they try a little shot of starting fluid to see if it fired and eliminate a few items with that. When I asked him if he tried starting fluid he said "yeah I tried that , I gave it a four second spray of starting fluid and it still didn't start" oh no he ditn't just say that to me...... 4 second spray of starting fluid omg shoot me
I think we have confirmed the shut down flapper is deployed in a video she posted On fb.
I went down to Fort Worth to work on the bus for two days. I pulled the radiator and opened it up. It's a 6 core and it had about 15- 20% blockages internally that I opened up. Then I took it to a steam clean bath. the fins were caked with oil and grease build up. I couldn't see daylight through a good portion of it. I also removed the rear bumper flap to help with cooling, I added a 8 bladed fan, sealed the air gaps around the radiator preventing the warm air from coming back through around the sides, and I changed the v730 from 40wt to tes295. Even if it drops the trans operating temps 5 deg it will help relieve the stress on the buses cooling system. It ran cool all the way to Albuquerque. Lots of little changes that all add up to helping keep it cool. Just an update that it's still going. I'm not exactly sure when they are getting the new bus but it's coming soon. I think this one will hold together a little longer as long as they don't lug it up the mountains and cook it. Good news was the dash gauge was about 10 deg hotter reading than the actual engine temp. It's still a miracle that it didn't get cooked last week when it was spewing coolant and way over heated.
Some radiator cleaning.
Check out this video on YouTube:
http://youtu.be/0a9vj6w0Udg (http://youtu.be/0a9vj6w0Udg)
Nasty. So did you actually steam clean it also? Or did you just power wash it? How much power washing can a radiator take before you accidentally blow holes into it? Is it even possible able to blow holes into a radiator with a power washer I was always afraid to power wash my radiators
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Is that actually steam, or just a hot water pressure washer. It looks like a pressure washer to me. I spent a good part of a summer running a steam cleaner and it didn't look anything like that.
A pressure washer might okay with a really wide tip and the pressure turned down.
It's a hot water pressure wash. It's a wide fan tip and it never gets too close. It washed away the grease and grime easily. They also coated it with a heated water based degreaser a couple of times and it helped the process. I have pressure washed lots of radiators and never caused one to leak. But they are fragile so always treat them as so.