Is anyone here using renewable diesel, either R100 or a blend, in their bus? (Please note, this is not Bio-diesel or WVO - renewable diesel can be made from similar base stocks, but it is produced entirely differently than Bio-diesel; renewable diesel is chemically similar to petroleum-derived diesel and meets the same ASTM D975 standard as regular diesel.) The reason I'm asking is because all State of California agencies and departments are now mandated to buy only renewable diesel for all their vehicles and equipment. I work at a State of CA healthcare facility that has three emergency generator sets that can provide power to the entire facility, and they each have a Detroit 12V149 quad-turbo engine. Our question is whether renewable diesel will work in our ancient generators without buggering something up. If we can prove that those old Detroits will suffer if run from renewable diesel, we may be able to get a waiver to allow us to still buy dino-diesel for them. There's no hurry right now as we still have about 80,000 gallons of the good stuff, but at some point we'll need to get more fuel for them.
I know that Bio-diesel has caused some problems resulting from its strong solvent power that can soften seals and dissolve accumulated gunge, and that WVO can also cause long-term issues. Curiously the technical papers about renewable diesel don't mention those problems, so I'm wondering if renewable diesel also has similar problems but they're being whitewashed over for now due to political expediency?
So, is anyone here using renewable diesel in a 2-stroke Detroit, and if so for how long and what are the results?
Thanks, John
I have seen the R20 before but never saw R100 the MSDS sheet don't look all that good for a green fuel ;D
I thougt they outlawed two cycle diesel engine use there.
Strangely, smog laws in California only apply to commercial vehicles. Those used for motorhomes as single vehicles are exempt from smog laws. Good Luck, TomC
That is a huge generator going by the hp of the 149,it's owned by the State of Ca they don't live under the sames laws and rules as others.The 2 strokes are not completely outlawed that engine falls under CARB Tier rating. CARB allows a certain % of the 2 strokes in a fleet like if you have 12 modern engines Tier rated engines they will allow you to have 1 Detroit 2 stroke it's screwy
I've been a VW TDI owner for 14 years and I've heard all the hype, but nobody has ever explained to me the difference between "biodiesel" and "renewable" diesel fuel. Since it takes about 100 gallons of petro-diesel fuel to plow, sew, tend, harvest and transport the crops to make 100 gallons of "bio", I don't think I'd call it "renewable". If we're going to grow food, wouldn't it be more "renewable" for us to eat it? (Political spin and BS ...)
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on January 26, 2016, 03:51:45 AM
I've been a VW TDI owner for 14 years and I've heard all the hype, but nobody has ever explained to me the difference between "biodiesel" and "renewable" diesel fuel. Since it takes about 100 gallons of petro-diesel fuel to plow, sew, tend, harvest and transport the crops to make 100 gallons of "bio", I don't think I'd call it "renewable". If we're going to grow food, wouldn't it be more "renewable" for us to eat it? (Political spin and BS ...)
Exactly. One inconvenient truth that the politicians have glossed over (or maybe they're simply ignorant of it) is where the biomass comes from to make "renewable" diesel. It mostly comes from soybeans in the US, from canola / rape seed in Europe, and worst of all from palm oil in tropical countries such as Malaysia and Indonesia. And we all know what's happening to the rainforests in those countries, being destroyed so that more lucrative palm oil can be produced instead. Then, to add insult to injury, huge tankers need to ship the oil to wherever it's turned into fuel. Yes, it's patently absurd, but politicians and other ignorant twits have fallen for it hook line and sinker. John Deere supports using these non-petroleum fuels in their engines, but we know where their primary business is . . .
John
Quote from: luvrbus on January 26, 2016, 03:15:01 AM
That is a huge generator going by the hp of the 149,it's owned by the State of Ca they don't live under the sames laws and rules as others.The 2 strokes are not completely outlawed that engine falls under CARB Tier rating. CARB allows a certain % of the 2 strokes in a fleet like if you have 12 modern engines Tier rated engines they will allow you to have 1 Detroit 2 stroke it's screwy
Yup, we've got three of 'em! They can provide 100% of the facility's power, not just power to specific areas and outlets like in some hospitals. When they're tested every week they make a fine noise as they come online and take a load! Surprisingly they produce very little visible exhaust smoke, but as emergency generators their coolant and oil are always kept at operating temperature ready for immediate use. One example (as if we need another) of governmental idiocy is the conflict between our Licensing requirements and CARB's requirements - Licensing requires them to be test-run for more total hours per year than CARB allows such engines to operate outside of true emergencies. If we keep Licensing happy, CARB fines us, but if we only run them to CARB's maximum allowable time then we are out of federal compliance with Licensing. D'oh!
With them being older technology engines is why I asked here about running a fuel through them that Detroit never envisaged when they were made. Maybe they'll run just fine on renewable diesel, but what happens if Something Bad happens to them during a genuine emergency or power outage, and then our patients' life-support equipment stops working? Not good. I wonder if railroads are also using these newer fuels in their 2-stroke locomotives?
John
I understand, and realized also they generally tie funding with those restriction/mandates to agencies or States.
Some fleets I remember use some sort of bio diesel in summer "exclusive" and I at my area was one and so required the tanks be use up in September so typical winter blends can be put in big tanks following.
The main or big tanks I can say others in charge did put a first class effort in doing and so a regiment pumping of remaining tank contents was done by the selling supplier.
These task I'm glad I didn't have added to my enough other fleet management/wrench duties.
Winter preparations had enough issues in itself, though a calm ;) after oh 28-30
I think things that don't run say a continuous duty I would avoid and totally if in cold cycles.
Some examples like purely seasonal and or emergency usage equipment. Being used on a stand-by basis could be brought up to appropriate personnel in a "maintenance" needs conversation.
All this stuff as we know involves more filters, also requires persons to do that task with equipment and these types more than others has a maintenance clipboard at minimum.
Sometimes a bummer trying to make sure all vehicles and ag equipment using the mandated fuel, had completely used it and running only typical winter blend in October.
I can say operating a 5 n 4aux running my assigned Detroit powered Dump 1979, I finally understood. Shifts for power band were kept as close as one could, 18-22 and felt I had it down to a solid hum & how saweeet
Good day from the Midwest
Floyd
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/emerging_hydrocarbon.html (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/emerging_hydrocarbon.html)
Just like Hybrids-much more energy is needed making anything with dual power source. I just saw an interesting YouTube talking about world wide energy and the relationship to Diesel engines. If you look at Europe, over 50% of the cars are Diesel, virtually everything else-nearly 100% is run on Diesel engines. Maybe a small percentage of the Diesel engines are starting to run on natural gas. But when the engines are really looked at, natural gas emits much more bad emissions than Diesels. Proof-coal mines with their underground trucks and rail cars have three sources of power-electric overhead trolley, electric battery, clean Diesel running catalytic converter with replaceable Diesel filter. The preferred power source-Diesel. You won't ever see natural gas in an enclosed situation like an under ground mine or an inside fork lift. Why? "Clean" natural gas emits a tremendous amount of carbon monoxide. About the only vehicles not running Diesel engines are large jet powered airplanes. Even smaller private planes are running compact Diesels. The only steam powered ships still being made are military ships-and those are nuclear powered.
Bottom line-Diesels are not going anywhere soon. Good Luck, TomC