I know this has been discussed before but I've never read anything definitive on what the max payload of an MCI luggage bay is? Wondering if our 102c3 can have a 200 gallon fresh tank in one of the bays?
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The rear baggage bay always carries the most weight on any bus,the middle bay the least,you will be fine with 200 gals in any bay just watch the weight in the front bay so not to overload the front axle BTDT on a Eagle.I have 4 bays on the D the front is rated for 1200# the rear for 2100# yours should be close if not more to those numbers IMO,all my tanks are in the rear bay fwiw
Ok thanks Cliff. I've heard that too much weight in the rear bay can unload the front axle? That can't be true right?
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Never heard that one before ;D,you can adjust the front axle weight with the tag axle anyways on MCI's
any weight between the axles of a vehicle gets shared between the axles, on a simple geometric ratio of distance to the axles. So weight in the rear bay gets shared around 80% to the rear axle and 20% to the front axle. Weight behind the rear axle and in front of the front axle is a different matter.
Brian
Wow, another interesting bit of misinformation to mess with a busnut's head!
In matters of weight addition/subtraction, think like a teeter-totter?
adding weight beyond/behind/rearward of the rear axle will lighten the steer axle weight.
Between the axles, some proportion of the added weight will be shared between the axles.
So, for instance, you would see a lightening difference in steer axle weight by moving the stock big batteries from just behind the steer axle to inside the engine compartment. First, by removing the weight from near the steer, and secondly, by leverage placing them rearward of the back axle.
As for practical ideas of bay strength, I don't recall a busnut reporting bay failure? And lots of busnuts carry big tanks and stuff...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Ok good stuff. I didn't see how it would unload the front axle to load in front of the rear axle but I guess that's how rumors go. Well, I think I may put a 200 gal fresh tank in rear bay and 200 gal black grey combo in the center bay. Maybe...
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Those two tanks would run about as much weight as a full sized car if they should ever be filled at the same time. I realize that should never happen if you simply move water from one bay to another. After running our coach for the last fifteen years, there have been a number of times that we have had unusual tank balances.
Big tanks will have some negative effect on fuel economy and mountain climbing.
FWIW
Tom Caffrey
Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. It's pretty easy to spread out the load, especially if you build your own tank, but you do need to consider the size of the tank.
Water is 8.4 lbs per gallon....if you just round it off to 8.5 and use that times the number of gallons that your tank holds, it will also account for the weight of the tank too. ;D
Might be the stuff of urban legends but I read they used to ship 8V71s in bus luggage bays.
No legend. True story. Greyhound buses used to haul packages too at one time...and trailers full of packages too. As for water capacity, we really need the extra capacity. We found during our fall and winter tour recently, that getting your fresh tank filled is harder than you think cause all the truck stops turn off their taps for the winter. And campgrounds are now charging $20 just to dump. So, when we are traveling extensively and not camping for a few weeks at a time, bigger tanks give us an amazing amount of freedom and flexibility.
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Just a thought! I think tanks are pretty much sized in a full status?, So probably a decent free area on top may be best considered a bit, however one builds or finds a good fitting tank.
I'm all ears on tank finds that ideally would fit my 9, while readin the great post here and really this is the only basis I got. (gathering mode)
Thanks
Floyd
I remember buying a huge electric car for my son (only back in 05 or 06) and the seller shipped it via grey hound.. went to pick it up and there was a lots of boxes that had just been shipped.. prices were super cheap also..
Floyd, my tentative plan is to have two custom tanks made. I would like them to fit just inside the entire 4x8 luggage bay floor and be approximately 12" tall. Still working on the details. Then I would build another floor on top of the tanks and that would be the new luggage bay floor.
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Hi Scott,
I have 250 gallons of holding water, a 12 gallon H2O heater, and my Proheat all in my
rear bay. 12 years now without any signs of any problems.
Good Luck
Nick-
Nick, thank you so so much for that data point. That's exactly what I needed to hear. You have a 102c3 as well right? Can you tell me how the 250 gallon tank is set up? Custom across the entire bay? Pics?
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Scott when you mentioned your tank consideration at about 12" tall, I had ran that through the calculator and seems to be about 120 gallons each. An interesting point for me was the clearance in my 9 is about 22" under the tunnel as I recall. This would definitely have some good room for other stuff, does the 102 have more height clearance in the bays, curious.
Floyd
Floyd, I think I used an online calculator to determine approx 12" tall, and 3.5x8' width and length. Should have been approx 200 gallons if I remember right
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That is a good idea, but why not stack them so your weight is always in the same bay! Wish I had done that.
Wes
Wes, that was my original plan and then all I had to do was insulate and heat one bay. I would have all my "outdoor" plumbing in that bay and not have to worry about heating all three like my mc9 is set up. It's annoying. The issue for us is that we do indeed dump our grey directly out diverter valves I put in all the drains so they discreetly go to the ground underneath the coach. So when we are on traveling on a long trip, our black/grey tank is only holding toilet contents. Along the way we use up the 100 gallon fresh tank several times over and are refilling at truck stops, friends houses etc without having or taking an opportunity to dump. This has led to us having both the black/grey tank AND fresh water tank full simultaneously and I'm not so sure one bay could hold 400 gallons (3200 lbs)
According to cliffs numbers, it would be majorly overmaxing out the rear bay to put that much weight in it. If someone tells me otherwise, then that's exactly what I'm going to do. Stack the 200 gallon tanks in the rear bay.
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I saw a neat tank install in a MCI C they were vertical mounted 250 gal tanks about 12 inches thick that went from the floor to the top of the bay with the tunnel notched out
I get what your saying Scott, I had thought you meant them 4x8x12 as split being two smaller tanks. Rollin again here, interesting now and roughly the bay capacity ive heard.
Are your plans having the empty access on bottom, in any case a good idea you have.
good day there
Floyd
Floyd, I think I'm intimidated to build a shelf that can elevate the tanks and hold 3200+ lbs. I would love to elevate them and have empty access underneath because that would allow me to have a definite slope for the black tanks drain no matter where I park. Put the drain up high and you're very likely to have a slope regardless of the terrain. But again, that's a lot of weight and I'm not a metal fab guy or an engineer
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If you put them both in same bay you should never have more than 200 gal of liquid at any time. If you can't find a dump you could always use a pump and dump most anywhere.
Jack
If you put a tank in the rear bay and then a tank in the center bay you will only be separating the by a few inches, I don't see where that would make a lot of difference.
You can put the black/grey tank on the bottom, fresh on top and build a metal and wood frame to sit the top tank on. If it makes you feel better you could extend the framing for the top tank into the center bay to help distribute the weight.
Wes
all my tanks are in the last bay . 100 gal. fresh , 80 gal. grey , 35 gal black + in floor heat manifold and heat exchanger , small 2.5 gal. water heater with enough space left over for a extra 80 gal. tank . and yes it is easy to heat the bay . most of the time all that is in there is 100 gal. weather it,s in the fresh or grey or black .
there have been times that I could have used more fresh water but not many
I would try to put all tanks in 1 bay if possible
just my way
dave
Is there the tunnel in the 102s bays like the model 9 has, curious now as I thought it did.
The black tank having a slope I always thought would be good and somewhat easier maintenance, however that could be worked out.
Scott that tank rack might take a bit of steel, id have to get my nephews to hoss that around!
You could build it no doubt in my mind.
Floyd
My thoughts on holding tanks -
Make the tanks as tall as the bay allows.
Make only as wide as you need for capacity.
This will give more pressure to dump the waste & will do a better job of evacuating the solids out of the tank.
Put a dump valve on both sides of the coach.
Only 1 waste tank to combine grey & black.
Use 2 valves on right side & have grey drain connect between the 2 valves. Have a connection in the grey vent to the top of the main tank for the grey to drain into if second valve is closed.
Put in as big as you can - if you are worried about weight, don't fill them.
I only have 145 gallons of waste tank, would be nice to have more, but it is way better than the 30 gallons I used to have.
I haven't noticed a few hundred gallons of water weight making much difference in fuel mileage.
Biggest impact I have found on fuel mileage is dropping the rpms from 2200 to 1750 on the ole 2-stroke. :o
Floyd yes the tunnel is still there in the 102's. In my opinion it's too big. It isn't housing anything that requires the depth but I think it's part of the structure. Kyle,
You bring up interesting points on the pressure and evacuation of the tank when dumped. Making me think. How structural are the thin sheet metal separators between the bays? Can I remove them? Making one big basement?
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Hi Scott, saw a C&D at Los Alamitos, torn all the way down to the trusses, that's all there is above the belt/floor line, just like the earlier mci lettered buses, the bays are just boxes with frames hanging from the trusses, lvmci...
are the bay walls there to add support for the bay floor to the main floor , so the bay floor will not sag ?
dave
The bay floors are supported by the out side frames and 2 supports under the bays the full length of bays.
The MCI from the C forward uses the same frame design as Eagle did since 1957.
It took MCI and Prevost years to figure that Eagle had it right on the frame design ;D Even took MCI and Prevost longer to figure out for a good ride you need independent front suspension. I don't get the concern you have a 200 gal fuel tank and batteries setting on the floor now
I would add to kyle4105's list to put an insulating layer under the tanks.
Even if you have no plans to fully insulate/enclose the plumbing, think of bare feet on a cold floor...
Even a sheet of plywood will make a difference in how easily the bay will cool, and reduce the practical amount of heat you'll need to defend against going solid.
I found rectangular box tanks that are 9.25" x 21" x 60" and 49 USgallons. Start with a pair? add more and gang them as desired?
http://www.plastictanks.ca/category.php?cat_id=029 (http://www.plastictanks.ca/category.php?cat_id=029)
Standing on the thin edge, there's room top and bottom below the utility tunnel for an insulating box, room for pump/manifold along the floor, and fittings/valves both sides.
Thin tanks, as well as giving good head for draining, also the sloshing doesn't have as far to build up stressful momentum.
I would not compromise the bulkheads between the bays on an MCI, inspect the way they are fastened top and bottom, those aren't just a separator of the basement space...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I for one would be concerned with long term road mileage stress concerns on the chassis. Why concentrate such weight in just one bay location? Why not consider instead spreading out the overall load?
Also fun and easy to calculate weight and measures when planning the floor and chassis plan. No reason why one could not know before hand what the Bus Conversion will exactly weight on all four or six axle ends.
sledhead, Dave I am in the thinking the between bay sheets play an important support role. They are aluminum but in engineering they figure everything and sell the assets, especially if it benefits more than one purpose even if just has an ole divider name.
Great post running here you all!
I have been looking at some post on cold temps and so key in on some using insulation of sorts in tank areas, course its been 14 degrees and I have been walking around 2" ice in drives and shop lots yep yep etc. That was here in Missouri this morning and afternoon was 60 so you know what the field lot is now zzzzrr zzzr mud
Good eve
Floyd
HB, the only reason I'm trying to squeeze it all into one bay is because if can get away with just one plumbing bay, I don't have heat more than just one bay. Less area to heat, less cost, less drama.
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Scott,
I have a 100 gal fresh water, 100 gal gray water, and 50 gal black water tanks in my "short-5ft long" 3rd bay on my 4905. In that bay I also have my 100 amp Square D 120VAC electrical panel, my 12VDC Paneltronics distribution, my LP Gas system (2-30 lb horizontal tanks) and my pex water distribution manifold(Viega), and my water pump. My thought on the weight was that only one of the 100 gal tanks would be full at any one time.
I insulated the floor w/2 layers of 3/4" blue foam, and the front and back bay walls w/foam. Everything fit and I have room left for a 12 gal electric water heater(future).
My goal was to have 2 full bays open to haul "junk"!!!!
Steve
Thought some and scratched this down it could be a good lead or late ice breaker ;)
I know your working on your 102 Scott so probably been punching numbers a plenty as it is.
M C I
Model 9 Bus
1992
40' L x 8' W x 11' H
approximate curb weight 27,500
GVW 37,800
43 passenger capacity: average weight estimate 175 lbs. may have been lower 30 years ago.
Passenger allowed "luggage size and weight" 50 lbs in a measurement totaling 62" l,w,h
This equals 4.6 cubic ft. Allowed 1 free and second at a low charge I believe.
Totals 197.8 cubic ft. at 43 pass. free with ticket lower bay storage.
43 x 50 lbs = 2,150 lb
Seating area: 7' x 35' =245 square ' measure includes restroom area. not Cab/Ops
Passenger estimated. floor structure load figured from square measurement on average.
43 passenger x 175 lb = 7525 lb, 7525 /245sq' = 30.71 lbs per square ft.
fuel tank gal. 140 @7.1 lb = 994 lbs
Axles, Weight limits
Front - 14,000
Intermediate - 22,000
Rear - 6,000
Luggage Bay capacities: 300 cubic ft. figures leave extra 102 cubic ft. available.
102Cf x 10.86lb = 1107.72lb possible.
Upper inside above seat: 122 cubic ft must be a load used here, lbs x 43
Using passenger allowed lower baggage weight @ 50 lb it runs about 10.86 per cubic ft.
Curb weight : 27,500 includes main fuel.
Max totals:
43 7,525 pass. lb.
43 2,150 pass. Luggage lb.
Total 3,7175
max GVW 37,800
Scott, with the size of tanks your talking I'd go separate bays. Why heat the waste bay? Just do like the ports potty companies and if your in cold climates throw a little de icing salt down the toilet. It will actually shake around a little as you drive and clean the bottom of the tank. Craig
Excellent post and calculations brmax and thank you. Also consider the designers had to make the coach work and last without spending a great deal of time, expense and materials.
I wonder if anybody could produce the data showing through the years how often the GVWR of a given coach was closely approached ... or rarely exceeded in revenue service?
If memory serves way back in the day when we kids rode Grayhound or Trailways to go visit family on kinda frequent visits, the coaches were never completely full. There were empty seats.
How many? Dunno. Can not remember. A few. Maybe some? All the passengers seemed to have the usual luggage with them. Carts full loading up. Coaches back then were very tough?
Seems also that the average Bus Conversion design and load out would not approach maximum allowable limits? Other words the coach runs light. Sosss ... why not even things out completely?
Spread things out evenly throughout all the bays because you can and want to? Instead of knowingly concentrating stuff locally just to make a few things easier and more expedient?
Picture 2 full holds of bundled newspapers, 47 peeps luggage stuffed into 3rd, rest jammed upstairs wherever it would fit...
Friday night midnight trip northbound out of the Big City, with the Saturday paper for every little whistle stop...
rest of the week it was just shy of one hold....
The GVWR was just a number on a plaque in the parcel rack....
A busnut has to ignore obvious body maintenance and do some wild things to come close to a problem?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Hello, I am in the process of converting a 1998 H3-41. Originally, I planned on putting the generator and 3 tanks (black, gray and water) in the rear bay. I wanted to have 2 open bays. I called and talked to the Prevost representative for conversion coaches about bay loading. He said they do not want more than 1,000 pounds in a single bay. My water tank is 140 gallons (1,120 lbs). I wound up moving the generator to the first bay.
Bandsaw
I agree guys it would take a lot of building material upstairs in a bus to compare to a full passenger load, It wouldn't take long for bundles of news print to get heavy either.
I'm sure just as now plenty of people chompin at the bit waiting on the new! news of the day
The planning here and just everyones organization of tanks, batteries and gen's is always a good workup. Heck I think listening to some of you veteran busnut builders you have made some new decisions on methods that are a great benefit for us looking forward.
good eve
Floyd
Good calculations and ideas. Craig Holland reminded me that indeed the waste tank need not necessarily be heated...but in climates we go....could be an issue. don't forget that these coaches Carried around freight and spare engines in the bay's too
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you can/could easily and safely heat a tank with a waterbed heater...i mean it sits under tons of water. against a plastic bag...
yes!
waterbed heater has been done, Fred Hobe used to do it and recommended it.
In all these years, I don't think I have ever read on the boards of a busnut reporting a failure of this strategy???
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Are they fairly low wattage? We have an all electric coach except the stove/oven so our electrical needs are already high. Trying to keep them as manageable as possible
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Water bed heaters are found in the 375 watt range. That's somewhere around 1250 Btu.
Not a heavy hitter by itself, if you plan to go skiing...
However it will satisfy many sun seeking busnuts' need for freeze protection, and can be useful as part of a tiered defense for arctic freeze protection.
Though only 375 watts, being placed directly under the tanks, the busnut is able to get the maximum effect from that small heat source. All of the heat is going where you need it, provided the whole thing has an insulating layer underneath it.
A waterbed heater will be useful to a busnut so long as:
It is turned on early and some warmth gets into the tanks BEFORE they freeze;
375 watts isn't a lot of power for getting UN-frozen;
Temperatures don't stay well below freezing for too long;
The tanks enjoy some isolation/insulation from the outside cold in order to slow the loss of heat.
For many busnuts, freezing is a race.
The rate at which your water system has the heat sucked out of it by the cold outside, the rate at which you introduce heat to the system, and how much longer until the temperature outside gets back up above freezing.
There are those coaches that freeze up right away, at the first sign of frost, there are those others that freeze up only after a couple of days of extended below freezing outside temps. And those rare few that never freeze.
Designing economical freeze protection into your coach is as tricky and opinionated as any other system we discuss on here!!!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Scott -
Sent you a PM re: waterbed heaters.
A tank 7'L x 3.5'W x 1'H = 184 gallons and 1,564lbs. If you could squeeze in tanks that were 18" tall, then you'd up your capacity to 275 gallons and 2,343lbs.
Fresh water tank on the bottom, grey/black on top, sloped to street side. Waterbed heaters under fresh tank will also heat black/grey if on top = 2 for 1!
Straight shot from toilet to black is best.
Discreet grey drain discharge thru "hump" in back bay wall opposite rear axle pumpkin? Could serve double duty as grey venting if plumbed properly, with black venting parallel alongside, but not connected?
I would seriously consider using a 3" "wye" for incoming grey, with two electric dump valves. Set valves up in such a way that when in "discreet" mode, grey tank fill valve is closed and discreet valve is open, then reverse when in grey fill mode. One switch to control both, if wired correctly. Throttle discreet line after valve from 3" down to 1.5".
Single "wye" for the valves: http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b8/b8874b8f-020f-44fa-8dc6-9a06248597c7_400.jpg (http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b8/b8874b8f-020f-44fa-8dc6-9a06248597c7_400.jpg)
Triple "wye" upstream of the single to collect from kitchen sink, bathroom sink and shower: http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/ca/ca7e2cd5-435c-4bd2-916f-eeabdbd0959e_400.jpg (http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/ca/ca7e2cd5-435c-4bd2-916f-eeabdbd0959e_400.jpg) This could actually be in the center bay if it's too tight in the back bay.
Single "wye" mounted with 45o side pointing down, then a 45o fitting to turn it horizontal to the dump valve then into the side of the grey tank. Straight side of "wye" connects to discreet drain line which would rest/lay across top of grey tank (possibly adjacent to the tunnel?) before turning down and then out.
Electric dump valve: http://drainmaster.com/site/products/full-view/265 (http://drainmaster.com/site/products/full-view/265) MSRP can probably be reduced with online shopping.
Shower and/or washing machine fills grey fastest, but you already know that. . . :)
Of course, set up grey tank itself to either drain separately or thru black to flush, with a "backflow prevention device" (aka: check valve) to eliminate possibility of black flowing into grey.
Oh, and don't forget a drain on the freshwater tank, too! Just in case you need to for some reason.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I would put the tanks side by side if at all possible.
If they must be stacked, I would not want black water stored over my fresh water ! :o
Install the fresh water tank under the bed pedestal then don't worry about the freezing,there is never much need for that hatch on a MCI C
Quote from: luvrbus on January 21, 2016, 02:58:05 PM
Install the fresh water tank under the bed pedestal then don't worry about the freezing,there is never much need for that hatch on a MCI C
i think Scott already uses a ladder to get into his raised platform sleeping arrangement...and are there not engine access to be dealt with too ..just thinking out loud .. :)
Quote from: luvrbus on January 21, 2016, 02:58:05 PM
Install the fresh water tank under the bed pedestal then don't worry about the freezing,there is never much need for that hatch on a MCI C
Hey Cliff. You have one under the bed, and another one in the bay. But you probably already knew that....
Interesting. Thanks RJ, will be in touch via pm. Don, you're right, our bed in our 9 is raised and there's a small play room underneath for Emma. I don't think I'll put fresh tank there....but maybe...need to chat with Heather on that one.
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