To start off HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone, I still haven't done anything with me engine troubles but I got to get things moving one way or another. I got a estimate for parts in a worst situation from the closest detroit service center, and not needing everything on the list I will still have at least $5500.00 in just parts. So my question is I found a 1994 Gillig Phantom bus that has a series50 in it with 320,000 miles, since it has that many miles I have read that the balance shafts need replaced at 300,000 mile, what and how much does that involve? The seller doesn't know much about it and doesn't know what transmission is in it, does anybody know what transmission these buses came with? and would I have to change my rearend gearing? Plus what HP would it be set at and how hard is it to turn up the HP? and last what about jakebrakes, the seller didn't know what that was but said when you leave off the throtle it like bogs down like you are putting on the brakes. I can get the whole bus cheaper than I can buy the parts for mine. I just don't know if I want to tackle the switch, every thing I read in the archives once done they wouldn't go back. Thanks for any input Jason
Jason, the ones I have been around with series 50 have a B400R (retarder) transmission it doesn't take much to boost the hp to 350 fairly cheap to do.
I would take a Pro/Link and read the ECM that's probably not the original engine or transmission the 1's I looked at in Houston with over 300,000 miles the engines had all been rebuilt or replaced.
Maybe one of transit guys on here can tell you how many miles a series 50 lasted in transit service.The gears depend on your driving speed most people lockout 6th gear running the 3:36 or 3:73 it to keep the tranny from hunting gears in 5th and 6th.The standard rear axle ratio for the Houston buses were 4:28, you will need the complete bus to do the swap it saves you a ton of money in parts.I wouldn't pay over 3500 bucks they are every were for 2500 to 3500 bucks
Thanks Cliff, I can't find any close to me for that kind of money, the one I found was just north of 5g. EricB has on but it is a V drive and I don't want to have to find a transmission also. Like you said I want to find it in all one package.Here is the quote I got back from Detroit.
Jason
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi690.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv270%2Fcccabinetry%2FScan_zpslnjmcgb1.png&hash=531ce44c1180a5c3074c25e0373fe29ecf22f2cc) (http://s690.photobucket.com/user/cccabinetry/media/Scan_zpslnjmcgb1.png.html)
DD parts are expensive I have a terrible time with people understanding the price of genuine OEM over the aftermarket parts.You quote people 4 grand for a set of liners and pistons for a 8v92.
They shake their head and tell you I can buy a complete overhaul kit on the internet for 1200 hundred and bring it to you.I just tell them you buy you install the s*** no way are you coming after me when it fails.I'll check for you and see if any auctions are coming up in your area
Yes, I learned my lesson on aftermarket s*** they got me once not again. The guy is suppose to look for a tag on the transmission tomorrow. I got to get moving on this since we have trips already planned and payed for this summer. Hopefully my mechanic's son who is the head mechanic at the local IH truck dealer will help me out if I decide to switch engines. He said he would help rebuild my old one since his dad's not able anymore.
Jason, What town are you in? I am in Warren Pa. I looked at a 748 with retarder for my 5C and with that big bottom on trans I could not make it fit. I know you do not have a Dropbox and it should be a 400 or 500 trans. Take a tape when looking.
Tom, Iam south of you in a little town of Distant right on Rt 28/66, The bus is in Kentuckey, I would like to find one closer if posible.
Jason
Quote from: luvrbus on January 01, 2016, 09:16:50 AM... you will need the complete bus to do the swap it saves you a ton of money in parts.I wouldn't pay over 3500 bucks they are every were for from 2500 to 3500 bucks
You will not *believe* how much of the "little things" you will need - if you don't buy a complete bus, you'll have to lay out a lot of $$$ for the small fittings, wiring connectors for the ECM and TCM, accelerator pedal and wiring, etc. If you're going to do this, it's a must that you get the entire bus.
$2500 - $3500 is about the right going price in the southeastern US; value at the auctions tends to vary with the mileage on engine, condition of components, etc. so don't worry about paying a few $$ for a super bus. (When I bought an '03 low-floor Gillig with a Cummins 8.3, I had access to the maintenance records and knew that the transmission was new within a year and the rear end had been done within 18 months. If you can get records, that helps.)
I agree - get the entire bus if you possibly can. When I put a Cummins ISM in my MCI 96A3 I bought the entire front clip of a freightliner. I couldn't believe how many different parts I took off the truck to use on the conversion. In fact, my conversion was of better quality and durability because of the parts source I had. If I had just bought the engine/tranny without the front clip it would have taken me much longer to make the swap and it would not have been of as high of quality. So far, I have about 60,000 miles on the swap and still going strong. I don't regret the work or cost in the least!
I found a 2004 Gillig in Charleston WV only 2 problems it is a Cummins 8.3 (ISL) and a 2004 will be a EGR engine. I forgot the link but it was on the Gov Liquidation site it was at 700 bucks with 2 days to go.The set up you are looking at will be non EGR engine and that is a big + then it's close without all the auction fees and transportation involved that add to the costs
Better to not have EGR, but it isn't that big of a deal. You can deactivate it if you want. My 1984 Mercedes 300 TurboDiesel has EGR and it has 490,000mi on the engine. Good Luck, TomC
Well he got back to me with a picture of the top of the transmission and a short video of the bus running but I can't seem to get it to load the files are to big >:( plus he said he found a tag on the engine that states it has been rebuilt. Jason
It's probably going to be a World Transmission the 700 series were out of production in 1994 then it could be a ZF which is not bad either.I had gut feeling the engine and transmission had been rebuilt so it sounds like you may have found a good package
Quote from: TomC on January 02, 2016, 05:10:15 AMBetter to not have EGR, but it isn't that big of a deal. You can deactivate it if you want. My 1984 Mercedes 300 TurboDiesel has EGR and it has 490,000mi on the engine. Good Luck, TomC
Yeah, my '03 Jetta TDI is rolling up on 400,000 miles -- I'm not going to talk about EGR when EPA could be looking ... ;)
Those little engines don't generate the heat of 10L diesel engine either
Its definatly a Allison you can see it on top of the casting, when I get back tonight ill try and post the pictures.
Jason
Post us a couple of the photos on F/B for us it's so easy there just one click and you are done
Jason, I looked the photo on F/B that is a B400 or B500 with a retarder you are good to go buddy,I love that photo posting feature on F/B quick and easy
Yes them oem parts are expensive. I've got over 8k in mine just in parts and I didn't need any heads.
Thanks Cliff, I posted another picture of the rebuild tag and a short video of it running. Is the retarder as good as the jake?
Another question would that bus be 12 or 24 volt?
All I saw are 24v with 2 -50amp Vanners for the 12 volt supply,I'll buy one of Vanners if you sell those
That would be good news, since I use my oem air and heat. Is a retarder as good as a jake? I don't use a vanner now so I see no use for one now lol
Jake vs retarder is a personal preference as you will find out here the Jakes don't generate as much heat as retarder.You will probably end up buying a joy stick to control the retarder and taking the automatic control away from the engine.
I sure wished I lived closer I would install that setup for a trade on some of your beautiful cabinet work damn you do nice work !!!!!
Thanks Cliff, I wish you lived closer also, Is the retarder activated like the jake (when you take your foot off the throttle)? If I get to do this and it has a vanner it's yours!
Most retarders in the transit buses are programmed that way with a % of application that why a joy stick is better you can chose the % of braking and not rely on the pre set %
Need to pay attention to oil pan configuration and mount for engine just behind pulley. could be expensive items to find. just throwing that out. Bus app would prob have best of both. Bob
Can any detroit shop tell from the numbers on the rebuild tag how many miles or when it was rebuilt? or is that tag just from the shop that did it?
Thanks Jason
In response to the original questions, if it has 320K on it, it's probably not the original engine. That should be a pre EGR engine though, and they last longer than the EGR models. It will probably have a B-400R transmission behind it. I had about 60 of them at my last property. They would start failing around 320K - 350K miles in transit service. The balance shaft failures were all over the map. If they didn't fail early, around 150K seemed to be the sweet spot. I've had some last 200 miles. Our shop had at least 3 of them that had to be removed immediately after replacement because the new one was bad. The classic symptom is low oil pressure at idle. The one caution I would give you is that Series 50 parts are getting harder to obtain. Last summer we had two buses down for over a month because we couldn't get replacement balance shafts. Most properties are retiring buses with Series 50 as early as they can now.
Regarding the transmission, most properties locked out 6th gear. My bus is also a Gillig with a B-400R. I had my transmission computer reprogrammed so 6th gear was activated. Just a heads up on the reprogramming; Detroit will likely require you to get an authorization letter from the bus manufacturer before they'll do it. I didn't have a problem, but I've heard of others that have.
Well my series 50 deal is going down the drain real fast >:(, So now I found a Gillig transit bus with a Cummins ISM with a 6 speed allison but don't know if it would fit. Looking back at other posts I see my 871 is 47" + the 740 is roughly 37" witch is 84" long, now I see the ISM is 58" and acording to the allison site a b400 is 28" long witch is 86" so I don't think the overall length would be a problem but the lenth of the engine may be at the topat the floor line. Now to the hight, I could cut the floor out more since it would be under my bed if needed. Plus I don't know what Hp it is set at but how much work is it to turn a ISM up to say 400hp? I thought I had it all figured out now Iam back to square one. Thanks Jason
Get the CPL for the engine. The CPL is the critical parts list. This is a number. It should be on the engine data plate. Call Cummins technical support with the CPL and they can tell you exactly how much the engine can be turned up without replacing interior parts. The CPL for my engine is good for 450 hp. I have it currently set at 400hp (what it came programmed at).
Thanks Brian, I will call him tomorrow and see if he can get me that number, Do you have any pictures of your install? Is it a 9?
Cummins ISL 8.9 liter is about the same length as the Series 50, but a lot shorter. ISL can be turned up to 450hp and 1250lb/ft torque and is available with Jake brake. Nice thing is the ISL is still in production, while the Series 50 is not. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: jmblake on January 05, 2016, 12:48:06 PM
Thanks Brian, I will call him tomorrow and see if he can get me that number, Do you have any pictures of your install? Is it a 9?
I do have pictures. Send me your email address and I'll send them to you.
Thanks Brian I sent you a PM
Jason
Plus the ISL is a heck of a lot smoother running than the S50 being that the ISL is a 6 cylinder while the S50 is a 4 and they tend to be rougher running by default.
Well if everything goes right Ill have a series 50 sitting in my driveway this weekend. Then the transplant begins. If any body that has done this into a MCI9 and have any pictures to share or tips I would really appreciate it. Jason
Now this I'm going to follow.. was thinking thinking about a D60 conversion in a bus with a 8v72 motor.
We have a D50 in another bus so if i can help at all (not sure how, but hey..) just holla.. only tibbit of advise is the fueling can be tricky on the D50, spent hours troubleshooting a problem and the problem was a stick return valve from the head..
Good luck!
Moose
Quote from: jmblake on January 07, 2016, 12:38:23 PMWell if everything goes right Ill have a series 50 sitting in my driveway this weekend. Then the transplant begins. If any body that has done this into a MCI9 and have any pictures to share or tips I would really appreciate it. Jason
I'm a little surprised that Jack Campbell ("Blue Goose") hasn't commented. There are a number of D50 conversions in the Southeast and Jack was involved with several of those. He is very familiar with many of the details (not sure which models of buses, tho).
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on January 07, 2016, 03:34:46 PM
I'm a little surprised that Jack Campbell ("Blue Goose") hasn't commented. There are a number of D50 conversions in the Southeast and Jack was involved with several of those. He is very familiar with many of the details (not sure which models of buses, tho).
Me also, I sent him a PM and a email to the one he has in his profile a few weeks ago ???
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on January 07, 2016, 03:34:46 PM
I'm a little surprised that Jack Campbell ("Blue Goose") hasn't commented. There are a number of D50 conversions in the Southeast and Jack was involved with several of those. He is very familiar with many of the details (not sure which models of buses, tho).
Jack has been sick, going to Dr again today.
Later
I read that there were 5 MC-9's with S50's at Arcadia this year. The year I was down south I saw three or four of them. From what I saw putting the engine in there was pretty easy, getting the electronics to work was almost the hardest part. Throttle pedal sensors hooked up to electronic speed controls and all of that. I recall that one just used one of the stock MC-9 radiators for cooling. They all seemed to use a laptop computer as the dash gauges. I was mucho impressed and immediately started measuring to see if I could fit one in my MC-5.
Brian
Quote from: blue_goose on January 08, 2016, 02:14:43 AMJack has been sick, going to Dr again today.
Later
Sorry to hear that, Jack. Hope you're 100% better real soon.
Maybe if you butt the S50 right up to the rear door, it would fit. Then how would you power the radiator blower? Plus the S50 is much taller than the 8V-71-and that barely clears the bus floor on a 5. Best conversion for a 5 is a 6V-92TA. Good Luck, TomC
Does anyone know how the N14 fits in.. I'm not convinced about a D50 (parts prices, balancing issues etc etc), and it looks my dream of the D60 is fast disappearing.
Mci 8
A coach designed around the V8....
The 6 cylinder in-line engines are longer length wise, and taller vertically...
Not enough room from differential to back bumper, not enough room from road to top of engine compartment.
Now, don't go telling a busnut something is impossible....
There are a few of us who have done the extensive work, but typically, the solution is to turbo charge the 8V71, swap in a hopped up 6V92T or upgrade to an 8V92T, if power is your desire.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
The N14 is about the same size as the Cat 3406, Series 60, in other words, a big block engine. The Cat C12 or Cummins ISM are smaller, but still more than enough power for bus. I still think the Cummins ISL 450hp at 1250lb/ft torque is more than enough for bus use. And about the same dimensions as a 6V-92TA. Good Luck, TomC
One of our buses has a cummings ISM (CM550) which is the 5.9 Turbo charged. Now this motor is basicly from a dodge ram 1996 era. HP is 205 (which I've set this one at for fuel) to 280HP via the ECM. Its a "campaign" motor which means they upgraded certain parts.
Now there's plenty of modified Ram's for sale, plus the engine is a small block..
Spit balling here, wonder if it would be a smart move or if the torque is to low.
If you have a Dodge with an ISM, It's gonna be in the bed, not under the hood.
You have an "B" (12V). There won't be an ECM for that series.
98 1/2 debuted the ISB (24V). That has an ECM
The ISM is 10.8 L engine based on the M11 only with the Cummins Interact System that is where the IS comes from in ISM
I meant ISB!
Doh!
(CM series)
why not go all out and drop a isx 675 hp in there
dave
The Cummins ISB is available in up to 360hp and 800lb/ft torque-about the performance of a 8V-71N. The 6.7 liter engine is one of those tough little engines that is designed right-short of like the old Chevy 327 or Ford 302 or Chrysler 318. Cummins rates that engine in marine use up to 550hp @ 3300rpm. Good Luck, TomC
my logic is there's a lot more guys who work on the ISB than the 2-strokes.. Parts are also easier, regular oils etc etc..
Our ISB is 5.9, 6 cylinder, and has never felt under powered even with a full load.
But... as always pro's/cons.. our D50 does have better gas mileage!