Heather and I have some pretty serious cold weather full timing experience with our record low temp full timing in the bus reaching minus 28 degrees F. Coupled with several feet of snow on and around the bus during various winters we have some fun memories for sure. That being said, in almost 5 years of FT, we are really needing to hone in on proper coach heat. Here's my take so far:
1. Propane furnace. We just recently bought a used unit that worked perfectly for a couple of weeks, then it decided to run rich one night, filled the coach with soot and smoke and freaked us all out (I have a baby now). It could be a multitude of things (dirty orifice, control board, etc) so I am going to yank it and call it $ down the drain. I honestly don't trust rv furnaces after reading the rv boards it isn't common to read about similar stories.
2. Electric space heaters can only do so much. Plus when you are rubbing off of genny power, who wants to use up their genny watts for three space heaters? Not me. We've been doing it since the furnace puked and I hate it. Gennies could run 20 hours running the fridge, pump, lights, microwave etc. But with two or three space heaters running, it's like 8-10 hours. It's been getting down to the low 20's with 30mph winds here lately.
3. Everything I read about webasto or proheat diesel heaters, they are a little bit pricey to maintain and sometimes quirky.
Hydronic heat seems to be the safe option with the combustion etc all happening outside your living space with relatively harmless hot water rubbing through interior radiators. I'm intrigued by this. But again, we are back to proheat or webasto coolant heaters which are $$$ to buy and maintain. Has anyone utilized a 30,000 btu stubby water heater (gas) for hydronic heating? Do they even make one? Any less expensive options for hydronic heat while parked in cold climates?
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How could it put soot and smoke into the coach? Hole in combustion chamber? We had one in our 4104 and it worked for years with few minor issues; spider web in intake, bearings getting noisy in blower motor after many hundred hours of use. It was non electronic model Suburban 30,000 btu. I think they are the most trouble free next to electric. Jmo though.
The usual culprit is a wasp, mud dauber nest in the exhaust port. The flame is contained inside a "box", and the fan blows around the "box" to provide the hot air. Soot and smoke sound like a compromised box. The first thing you need is a Carbon monoxide detector. We live in Denver and use the furnace a lot. Other than an occasional motor replacement no issues in 11 years. We have 2, a 40K in the middle and a 22K in back. I ran 1 duct from each into the water bay and can keep running water down to -16F so far. Hydronic heat is IMHO the best and most even heat. In a bus it's a tough deal to build an efficient system.
I'm sure the box is compromised at some level. I can hear rust flakes rattling around in there. I could by a new unit and someday it's box could rust and leak fumes or soot into my coach again while I'm sleeping. Not ok with that risk after what happened to me that night. Again, factory RV's have had this issue too based on my reviews of other forums. One guy had his CO detector go off when his factory installed furnace ran rich. We do have a CO detector but CO hadn't reached critical levels to set it off but the sooty smoky air was plenty nasty. Honestly, I just have never been impressed with any of the "RV industry" stuff. I don't think they made stuff for fulltime use and I've had much better performance from house products. Anyway, what about building a hot water heater hydronic system?
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Good thread!
It looks like you are using the coach further north. Many busnuts only need heat to take the evening chill off...
Approach your challenge in a phased manner?
Efficiency/economy needs to be kept in mind when full timing, weekend camping can afford to be casual about these matters.
A combination of radiant and fan forced, plumbing a water cooled generator into the system to scavenge it's wasted heat... tie in domestic hot water heating, some rig the hot water tank to work both ways, as a receiver and a maker of heat for the system, redundancy or layering to get your harshest BTU total...
Design for quiet for light heating, count on the generator/power pole being involved for high heating needs.
Over-build the "air trapping" features... gurgling pipes in the middle of an otherwise quiet night can be maddening!
Webasto and Proheat only suffer preventive maintenance problems - peeps buy worn out ones, don't do the regular or catch-up maintenance aand then blame the machine...
Yes, they are a maintenance item, they have nasty job, and do a lot of "work".
For fun, have you looked at the equipment that the marine folks have available? Dickinson is one name.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: Scott Bennett on December 28, 2015, 02:41:08 AM... Anyway, what about building a hot water heater hydronic system?
Limited power/heat output. A "small" household 120V heater (not sure about propane but don't see a lot of difference) uses a 1500W element. If you're 100% efficient, that would put 5000 - 5500 Btu into your interior heated area. A medium sized RV propane heater puts out about 40K Btu and those are marginal is some conditions.
I've seen 240V electric water heaters with 3000 or 5000W ratings but those I've seen are physically very large (the size of a file cabinet, roughly) and they'd still only give you 10K Btu/15K Btu (roughly).
Maybe there's an unusual spec'd heater (small in size, putting out 30-40K Btu) but that would be a big power draw.
It would be worth looking at propane water heaters - they have good efficiencies these days, have good startup and "recovery" time, and may be small-sized. But it doesn't seem to me that this would be a very good road to go down. (I welcome input from someone who has looked more deeply into this.)
Does ProHeat or Webasto make a propane unit?
I thought about it but never followed through teheke (sp) makes a tankless water heater that can be used as a small boiler. I would think it could be converted to propane.
Rick
Scott, like you we have spent much time in Michigan and northern States during cold weather. We haven't been in sub-0 temps yet, but we often wished were were not forced out of an area simply because of the cold. Often we wish we could stay north and can't.
We have found our biggest problem is not producing the heat but keeping the heat in. We have spray-foam insulation so our walls and ceiling are very well insulated. But our problem is our windows (single pane) and vents. Our frustration is always that all our heat seems to be lost to the huge amount of glass up front.
I know, if I had deep pockets, I could buy double pane windows for the sides, but that doesn't help the windshield and non-insulated front area of the bus. Our four ceiling fantastic vents condensate and surely release a lot of heat. We have purchased the 14" square "pillows" for each and they help a lot.
As you know, we have a mini-split unit up front, above the windshield. That heats very well, down to a point. When we need more than the mini-split can produce we add electric heat, or gas heat if we have limited electric.
I believe, if I could eliminate the huge heat loss out the glass, I could heat easily with my mini-split and gas. But, I'm not willing to cover my windows and live in a dark cave. So, south is my direction each winter. We're in TN this winter, and being mild so far we're doing fine.
If I could build anything more, I would add a marine style gas water heater and put a circulation pump through a heat exchanger with a fan through my floor duct system. I would pump most of the heat to the front where the heat is lost.
Also I would replace all my side windows with double pane $$$$ if I could.
Then I believe I could winter north. I would use a full combination of the heating systems.
Dave
It sounds to me like your using a propane catalytic heater that has combustion inside the bus. I can't see the reasoning for hydronic heat and all the maintenance they need. I have a 40,000btu Atwood ducted in my bus that works well. I replaced it after 15 years of trouble free operation when I left it run for 2 weeks straight. I could have just replaced the blower motor, but I wanted the updated version with quieter blower.
Now on my truck I'm using the big Suburban (20 x 12 x 12) 40,000btu with 4 outlets on my truck, but mounted in the basement with return air coming from the inside of the bus. I'm convinced that propane heat with RV style furnaces are the most cost effective, trouble free way to go. Both my truck and bus only have the stove and furnace running on propane with a cutoff solenoid mounted on the tank.
Re examine the propane furnace using 4 ducted outlets. Good Luck, TomC
how much time "off the pole" do you spend in sub freezing temps... if any, why ?
Quotehow much time "off the pole" do you spend in sub freezing temps... if any, why ?
For us, we like to move when we can. So Walmart parking lots and places like that are rather common. When it gets real cold our options are more limited. We have a big battery bank with inverter, but even with that electric heat will be cut short. The gas heat is the ideal option then. I can run fans, and pumps for lots of hours. But even the heat pump limiting.
With more mild weather we will still use our mini-split (heat pump) in cool or warm weather to keep us comfortable overnight and the inverter/batteries are fine. It runs very efficiently and will keep us comfortable all night, but if it gets down into the 30s or up into the 80s we need more options.
ProPex,Alde (Primus) and others sell propane boilers even AquaHot and Hurricane have a propane system.I had Primus for years it was the best system I ever had it cheap to use and quite no helicopter sounds at 2:00 am like the diesel fired system
re: Tom's comment, I just added a propane detector/shut-off system. It has two replaceable detectors, a shut-off solenoid and control unit. You can use the control unit to turn propane on and off from inside the bus and if either detector detects propane and alarm sounds and the propane is shut off. I have one detector in the basement and one in the kitchen. This is a marine unit and boats are quite critical of propane leaks.
http://www.suremarineservice.com/S-2A.aspx (http://www.suremarineservice.com/S-2A.aspx)
Before buying a propane hydronic system, check out the Technomadia blog post. They had one installed this summer and loved it until they started using heat. It seems it sucks down something like 30 gallons a week. They are in Arizona, not that cold there.
Cary
There is no way around burning a fuel of some type when it is properly cold.
The choice is which fuel to use, and in which system, when you need that 40 000 to 60 000 btu to get warm. As you noted, lots of glass needs lots of heat. I agree, covering the windows in blankets defeats the whole purpose of being a busnut.
Back a bunch of years ago, I did some half assed cold weather experiments with my MC8 and some electric heaters, coach was stone cold, taking temp measurements along the way.
IIRC, I posted it up either/or/and here or on BNO?
The generator can fulfill both a winter and a summer "maximum performance" role.
Heat strips in roof airs are useless in these conditions, don't even bother, and certainly don't count them in your BTU arsenal. Better to make up covers like the roof vents, heat loss up there is significant.
Don't fool around, if dealing with 0 Fahrenheit and below, your heating arsenal has to add up to a big enough BTU or you will be sad, and cold.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Found it, Jan 10, 2010 in the BNO archives:
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/33190.html?1263610080 (http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/33190.html?1263610080)
Approximately 20k BTU of electric heaters took 6.5 hours to raise the internal coach temp from 0 degrees to 52 degrees. Stock coach, all the stock dual pane windows, 2 roof airs mounted, stock insulation.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on December 28, 2015, 07:27:51 AM... Approximately 20k BTU of electric heaters took 6.5 hours to raise the internal coach temp from 0 degrees to 52 degrees. Stock coach, all the stock dual pane windows, 2 roof airs mounted, stock insulation. ...
And 52 degrees, when you're sitting quietly, or cooking food, or checking your email, is just not going to be comfortable.
Gas heat is an efficient, safe, and proven technology. It is used by hundreds of millions of people without problems. The issue you describe, combustion gases entering the living space, is simply because you bought a used unit that was already shot. I have a tendency to look for deals on used things, but since you need something that is going to be completely dependable and trouble-free, you would be best off doing the research on getting the best new unit you .
Tikvah-- there is a compromise you can make between blocking off your windows and accepting their heat loss. For example, if you covered part of the windows with 2 inch foam, you would save that much heat. I would think that one could even place the foam around the perimeter of a window and put clear plastic over the opening to create a temporary double pane.
I've spent a couple of winters in the Sierra's near Yosemite. I ended up tapeing bubble wrap over the windows. Still let the light in but retained a lot of the heat. I had an installed propane catalytic heater. I ended up using a 20 lb. Propane bottle every 3 days. Then I installed a small wood burning stove (I had unlimited access to wood). Dropped my heating cost to zero and stayed plenty warm but it's an unconventional solution. With the advent of the tiny house movement there are many more wood stove options. Just something to think about. Phil
We have single pane windows, big ones. For the front windows I bought sheets of 1 1/2" foam panel and cut 3 "windows" in it then covered the window holes with some shrink plastic window film. works GREAT.
why not something like this
https://jet.com/product/detail/6499c8e98006435b880d891519d92072?jcmp=pla:ggl:home_garden_a1:household_appliances_a1_other:na:na:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15&k_clickid=1eee7873-15e5-45ba-87f5-abcdede01993&gclid=CO2rnIDg_8kCFU82gQodBwoDHA (https://jet.com/product/detail/6499c8e98006435b880d891519d92072?jcmp=pla:ggl:home_garden_a1:household_appliances_a1_other:na:na:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15&k_clickid=1eee7873-15e5-45ba-87f5-abcdede01993&gclid=CO2rnIDg_8kCFU82gQodBwoDHA)
or better yet how about a tiny wood stove like
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/sig-marine--cozy-cabin-solid-fuel-heater--8760340?cm_mmc=PS-_-Google-_-Shopping_PLAs-_-8760340&adpos=1o4&creative=54604246324&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CNqd2bzh_8kCFYcjgQodsMgBrw (http://www.westmarine.com/buy/sig-marine--cozy-cabin-solid-fuel-heater--8760340?cm_mmc=PS-_-Google-_-Shopping_PLAs-_-8760340&adpos=1o4&creative=54604246324&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CNqd2bzh_8kCFYcjgQodsMgBrw)
I have infloor heat + a fan forced rad heater 32000 btu that works off a pro heat 45000 btu heater . it works really good when on the road or on the poll .but uses a lot of power when off the poll
I think a small efficient wood stove mounted up high as no little ones could get to it would work the best . heck you could use a bag of camp wood for about a week if you had to . just need to cut the wood down in size
I live up north and have a I C F house and had to find a very small wood stove that was efficient as to not over heat the house . but love the wood heat the best and all we burn is wind fall wood off of our land . we had 2 kids that learned to stay away from the wood stove. you would not have to carry a lot of wood with you as the small units do not burn much wood , but that small 18000 btu stove puts out heat all the time and in a tiny house ( coach ) it would heat up fast and dry out all the condensation that forms on the inside of the coach
in my coach garage it is heated with a house propane on demand water heater through a closed loop in floor + 4 36000 btu fan rads , that heats up the inside air fast but the propane heater is 87% efficient but still uses a lot of propane
there are lots on the internet https://www.google.ca/search?q=small+boat+wood+burning+stove&client=opera&hs=03O&tbm=isch&imgil=EeCi__83d6E6iM%253A%253BZkG-CUrZo2sw-M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fforum.woodenboat.com%25252Fshowthread.php%25253F125184-New-wood-stove-burning-stove-for-boats&source=iu&pf=m&fir=EeCi__83d6E6iM%253A%252CZkG-CUrZo2sw-M%252C_&biw=1280&bih=690&usg=__Jw20CdJRmvN7riQfmAuagC5sEWU%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjc4qrG3__JAhWDRiYKHQJAC4YQyjcIVg&ei=zcqBVpzIMIONmQGCgK2wCA#imgrc=vcBHcE4hz3B64M%3A&usg=__Jw20CdJRmvN7riQfmAuagC5sEWU%3D (https://www.google.ca/search?q=small+boat+wood+burning+stove&client=opera&hs=03O&tbm=isch&imgil=EeCi__83d6E6iM%253A%253BZkG-CUrZo2sw-M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fforum.woodenboat.com%25252Fshowthread.php%25253F125184-New-wood-stove-burning-stove-for-boats&source=iu&pf=m&fir=EeCi__83d6E6iM%253A%252CZkG-CUrZo2sw-M%252C_&biw=1280&bih=690&usg=__Jw20CdJRmvN7riQfmAuagC5sEWU%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjc4qrG3__JAhWDRiYKHQJAC4YQyjcIVg&ei=zcqBVpzIMIONmQGCgK2wCA#imgrc=vcBHcE4hz3B64M%3A&usg=__Jw20CdJRmvN7riQfmAuagC5sEWU%3D)
dave
Quote from: skihor on December 28, 2015, 12:28:37 PM
We have single pane windows, big ones. For the front windows I bought sheets of 1 1/2" foam panel and cut 3 "windows" in it then covered the window holes with some shrink plastic window film. works GREAT.
That's just what I was referring to. Glad to see that the thought is not crazy.
Ok so to clarify:
Tom we don't use an unvented heater. I think that it's a little scary to do that. That's another conversation. It was an Atwood furnace and yes I bought it used and yes it's pooped out on me. A new unit would probably do the trick. Dave, we have double pane Windows, and it helps. We can keep remarkably warm with three 1500 watt space heaters even down below zero since our windows are small and we are insulated well. Issue is that when on generator it isn't practical to do this. In our new bus, I actually plan to build a folding divider wall to separate the drivers area from the living space because if you plan on fulltiming anywhere Cold or even hot, it's a losing battle with the windshields. Again, another conversation. As to the thoughts on hydronic using a water heater, I was referring to a gas water heater and yes they make 30,000 BTU gas water heaters. I basically want to keep the propane and flame and combustion stuff completely separate from coach. Hydronic seems to be the safest way to do this.
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Scott,
I still have this Webasto heater sitting in my coach that needs to go. Angies been bugging me to get rid of it as its just taking up space. It works great but it does burn diesel and it takes batteries or power to run the water pumps.
Because of that we just stay in warmer places and run electric and heatpump to keep warm. Oiled filled heaters are the ones that really keep the coach warm and humid on a cold (down to 15 degrees overnight) dry day. We pull those out when it gets below 25 or so at night. And our coach is very poorly insulated up front. Like you can see out the bottom of the door and when it rains pretty hard when Im driving I feel water droplets on my feet at the gas pedal.
But the webasto will keep you hot and snuggly once it gets up to temp. You can run pex all over and it will keep your genny and engine warmed up as well. If I planned on staying in the cold I would keep it but I cant make no sense of being in 0 degree weather when you got 4 wheels and a tank full of diesel.
The best option dollar for dollar though is a wood burning stove. Nothing beats that for heat. And you can cook and boil water on it too. And as long as your parked next to the woods somewhere fuel is pretty cheap to run it.
See you soon...I hope.
-Sean
Have you considered a heater buddy type propane heater? I full time in my Airstream while building my bus and use the Big Buddy 4K - 18K BTU heat. Its 38 outside here in Coos Bay, not near as cold as you, and when I got home an hour ago it was below 50 inside, turned on the heater to HI for about 20 minutes then down to low and its 65 now. I will leave it on low till l I go to work in the morning. On low setting (4K btu) a 20 lb tank will last a little over 100 hours.
It wouldn't do squat at keeping your water tanks or bays from freezing but...
Shanksy, we are home in Michigan visiting heathers parents and giving them some special time with their new granddaughter :) we eventually will be back to Texas and should hopefully see you guys in March :) I do think a webasto might be in our future. Cliff and I have been private messaging about a possible webasto solution. The oil filled heaters still only provide 1500 watts of heat...a little over 5000 BTU's an hour. Electric heat is electric heat, and when we had 30-40 mph winds all night here an 24 degrees this week, we needed all three 1500 watters running nonstop to keep it a comfy 72 in here. Again, even though I have these nice shiny brand new twin Honda 3000is inverter gennies, 4500 watts of them are going straight to resistance heat and there's hardly any wattage left for the pump, fridge and chest freezer not to mention the 1500 watt water heater and microwave or toaster or washer or dryer. So yeah, I want my 4500 watts back please. :) besides the fact that when we load the gennies that hard, they guzzle gas like a Prius gone rogue. I would like to offload my power needs for heat to propane or diesel for sure. When the furnace was working properly, of course it used propane but not in huge quantities and it sure warmed up the coach and the floors nicely. Space heaters are annoying because of how local the heat is. Cold spots, hot spots. Blech. Can someone tell me what exactly a "good" maintained schedule on. Webasto looks like?
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There are three new Proheat X45's on Ebay, one 12v and two 24v, I have a brand new 12v I would like to eventually exchange for a 24v or sell the 12v and buy a 12v.
This is the unit I put in my Neoplan Cityliner. This one is better than the one I bought as it comes with the exhaust and intake mufflers. My Cityliner still was most of the factory single pane windows. I removed three windows the front of the bus still looks like a greenhouse. I have four toe kick heaters, two in-floor sections and aux heater for the drivers area. With the blinds closed it will keep the bus 65 to 70 degrees in 30 degree outside and the Webasto still cycles. That is it doesn't have to run continuously to keep up with that load.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUXILIARY-HEATING-WEBASTO-THERMO-TOP-C-DIESEL-UNI-SET-/291630654495?hash=item43e68aa41f:g:yK4AAOSwg3FUa0UC&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUXILIARY-HEATING-WEBASTO-THERMO-TOP-C-DIESEL-UNI-SET-/291630654495?hash=item43e68aa41f:g:yK4AAOSwg3FUa0UC&vxp=mtr)
Quote from: Lee Bradley on December 29, 2015, 03:34:38 AMThis is the unit I put in my Neoplan Cityliner. ...
What's the size of this, Lee? It looks really compact.
Jay, the thermotop c is a 17,000btu unit. I'm looking for something in the 30,000btu range. And shanks, I do really think we are considering a wood stove when we are parked.
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Quote from: Oonrahnjay on December 29, 2015, 03:54:55 AM
What's the size of this, Lee? It looks really compact.
It is about 6 x 8 x 12 inches and has 3/4" water connections
The thing about an RV style forced air propane furnace is, they are simple, many RV stores have parts and don't require all the pumps, heat exchangers, plumbing, ignitor problems that hydronic heat has. If you're in cold weather, just use two furnaces. My single 40,000btu has no problem heating my bus (coldest I've been in is 17). For the cost of two propane furnaces and the propane tank, you'd have to spend close to 3 times that amount for an Aquahot type system. Good Luck, TomC
Don't forget that the water system (and whatever else you. Have in the bays that matters) has to be kept from freezing in these hard core conditions.
And the various engines will need starting assistance...
Keeping warm upstairs isn't the whole challenge...!
One of those 17K webastos would be a lovely piece of the puzzle!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on December 29, 2015, 06:50:22 AM
Don't forget that the water system (and whatever else you. Have in the bays that matters) has to be kept from freezing in these hard core conditions.
And the various engines will need starting assistance...
Keeping warm upstairs isn't the whole challenge...!
One of those 17K webastos would be a lovely piece of the puzzle!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I have the Webasto in the basement and between the water manifolds, pumps, and exhaust pipe it keeps the basements toasty warm. Also have a loop to the engine and about hour of hot water circulation, the detroit starts like its summer.
Tom, I agree in terms of price point, but in terms of safety....when i discuss the fact that I sleep with the furnace on, some people tell me we shouldn't. Only use the furnace while you are awake they say. Well, as a full timer that's not an option when it's 20 degrees out. People really have to realize that there is a dramatic distinction between fulltiming and summer camping or snowbirding/fair weather chasing. My work sometimes allows me to chase nice weather but not always so we have to prepared for literally anything....North Dakota in January or Yuma AZ in August. People laugh at our small windows (I do too) but they are part of the reason we are comfy in weather extremes. I'm still convinced we need to cordon off the drivers area because windshield glass is impossible to overcome efficiently in terms of thermal transfer.
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Scott, lots of good info on this subject, after watching your posts over the years I would say you have the most experience in this category, I've seen more pics of your bus in the snow than in fair weather, I don't know how you do it, I agree with Tom keep it simple use RV furnaces that you can find parts for, use carbon minoxide alarms as well as propane detectors, stay safe and warm at the same time. I'm sure you could probably write a book on your travels.>>>> John.
Quote from: Scott Bennett on December 29, 2015, 08:00:11 AM
....North Dakota in January or Yuma AZ in August.
This is why I have a 3.5 T AC and a 7200 watt (240v) central heating system and a 12kw kubota gen wired 240v.
yes it costs off the pole.... that's the price you pay.
and my 3kw inverter supports the peripherals when the AC is against the governor
How is sleeping with the propane furnace in a motorhome any different than sleeping with a natural gas furnace in your home. I have a carbon monoxide sensor, interior switch to cut off the propane supply. We've been RVing for 15 years, and no problems. The CM sensor has never barked. I wouldn't and am not afraid of propane furnaces. There are literally hundreds of thousands of RV's heated by them. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on December 29, 2015, 04:06:42 PM
How is sleeping with the propane furnace in a motorhome any different than sleeping with a natural gas furnace in your home. I have a carbon monoxide sensor, interior switch to cut off the propane supply. We've been RVing for 15 years, and no problems. The CM sensor has never barked. I wouldn't and am not afraid of propane furnaces. There are literally hundreds of thousands of RV's heated by them. Good Luck, TomC
have you looked at the circuit cards in a residential furnace lately....?
Tom, i think you're right, there must be a decent safety factor there for them to be installed on nearly every rv that comes from the factory. And I know i could go out right now and buy a new one and install it and probably not have any issues with it for years. I don't disagree with anything you're mentioning, but just for a second try to see where I'm coming from. I buy this furnace, install it in our coach. It works for three or four weeks flawlessly. I actually really loved it. Set the Tstat at 72 and walk away. For the first time I felt like I had residential heat. I ducted it to point at the kitchen floors so the floors even stayed warm. Then one night at 1:30am I literally wake up for some reason and it stinks inside the coaches turn on the light and there is a smoky haze. Go into the bathroom and see this blackish soot all over the white toilet. I immediately get my wife up and get her outside then I grab my 8 week old baby girl who thankfully was inside a bunk bed crib area with a heavy curtain separating her from the haze so her bunk air was actually surprisingly fresh still, and we head outside. Once outside I realize that black smoke is pouring out the furnace exhaust so I turn it off. That's enough to scare you and leave a bad memory. My wife loves the fulltime life. And my baby will adapt to it since it's all she knows, but keeping them safe and warm is my number one priority. That night literally scared the living daylights out of me so I'm gun shy about another furnace. FYI, my CO detector didn't detect any CO so I think the carbon sooty smoke was just somehow making its way into the coach rather you than CO. Could it be a dirty orifice? Probably. I'll take it apart and see what I find.
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Scott-I really don't understand how the propane furnace could smoke up the inside of your bus since all propane forced air furnaces have exterior vented combustion. The only way that furnace could have smoked up the inside of the bus is with a crack in the combustion chamber then having an obstruction in the combustion air causing the propane to burn rich, i.e. smoke. To me, it was a combination of many things that would most likely never happen again. I still wouldn't be afraid of buying a new furnace and continue going this route.
You can get stink from Diesel heat if the wind is blowing the wrong way back towards the bus. At least when propane is burning correctly, it doesn't have much of a smell (after warming up). Good Luck, TomC
With diesel fired heat 1 thing you need to keep the diesel fuel treated at around 15 degrees it would really piss me off sometimes in the mountains when the fuel would gel in the filter to the Webasto.
Then you need to watch the exhaust the temperature is above 500 degrees and they have a certain length for exhaust like 5 ft so placement is very critical on those units so don't mount one up front and run the exhaust pipe to rear of the bus BTDT ???.
Mount it away from your sleeping area if you are a lite sleeper like me they are noisy and stink when first fired in cold weather the white smoke goes away but is a real pita for a few minutes.They are expensive to maintain over time you can buy a RV furnace for the price of just 1 part for a Webasto without labor and time to install.It gets down to what one prefers in heating we all are different JMO
Scott, The combustion chamber is completely isolated from the interior. If, for whatever reason, it starts producing soot it should be blown outside with the rest of the combustion gases. If the smoke was coming inside than the chamber is broken or the smoke is coming in from the outside somehow. Since you mention that you can hear rust flakes when you move the furnace, it would not be surprising to learn that it is cracked.
I certainly can understand your need for caution here, especially since you have not determined the cause of the problem. However, combustion chambers have a lifespan. Years of exposure to humid air and the continual expansion of contraction will eventually kill them. Now, since most RVs are used on an intermittent basis, people like me can have 25+ year old furnaces that have not failed yet, but if we started using it full time in the north country, it would be likely to happen soon. Probably, the one you bought was just on such an edge; a good new one should have many years of safe use in it.
My point is that you need not be driven from a system you like because of this incident. However, if you view this as an opportunity to invest in a more exotic system, then you should do what makes you happy. In this hobby, some like the KISS approach, some like Rube Goldberg, and others stake out a space in between.
Hi Scott, to follow up on what Lin was saying, if you have a natural gas whole house heater in your home, as so many do, it's just a larger version with ducting, comparing to what we have in RVs. The gas/flame chambers also rust out in humid climates over time. And many sleep with that on everyday of the winter. There are a few HVAC specialists on the board, who might speak to this. lvmci...
I lost the link but Jim Phypers wrote a article on how to do a hydronic system using your water heater. I recall it being real simple just a pump and a heat exchanger or a old automotive heater from a wrecking yard and you could tie solar into it also maybe one of guys can search it out,I posted the link here several years ago
interesting. I did like the forced air heat...was sooo nice compared to space heaters. But, if I can use a hot water heater (30,000 BTU) and it's a shorty (like my 30 gallon kenmore in the bay right now) then that's the route I'd love to go. Hydronic all the way. But for now, maybe I'll give the furnace another try...
Quote from: Scott Bennett on December 30, 2015, 03:34:41 PMinteresting. I did like the forced air heat...was sooo nice compared to space heaters. But, if I can use a hot water heater (30,000 BTU) and it's a shorty (like my 30 gallon kenmore in the bay right now) then that's the route I'd love to go. Hydronic all the way. But for now, maybe I'll give the furnace another try...
What's the wattage and BTU rating of your Kenmore heater now, Scott. Might work.
I have a 19 gallon water heater with 4500 watt element. That is about equal to my websato top c (15,000 vs 17,000 BTUs). I use the electric when I have 50 amp service and diesel when I don't. Either one keeps the hydronic system hot.
And with Lee's approach, the electric and the diesel could be run together for those deeper cold situations, provided the system has enough ability to shed the combined 32K btu into the coach.
Normally radiant, fan forced when necessary? Choices for economy, combined for crisis?
And the thermal inertia of the tank, perhaps warmed by an engine heat exchanger, prime mover or generator, would be lovely "free heat" on a cool evening.
So many ways to roll your own!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on December 30, 2015, 10:32:08 PM... So many ways to roll your own!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
The best part of converting a bus!
Scott, you can buy the Webasto 2000 air heater at most truck wrecking yards from the bunks for 300 bucks used then you could have forced air heat diesel fired the new units are around a 1000 bucks from PeterBuilt they do a good job I haven't checked the E place
I'm interested in how the hot water system (water heater or Wabasto) plumbs into our coach water system.
I imagine, on the road the engine would supply the hot water for the fan forced coil, when parked the water heater provides the hot water to the coil, and when preparing to drive, the water heater would preheat the engine.
Where do the systems tie together? How is it controlled? I've always considered the ports where the OTR heat coil was removed.
if you want to go the route of radiant heat this is how mine is .
6" apart in the floor pex front to back with 4 zones + 1 36000 btu fan heater ( hi , low , off fan ) under the fridge
pro heat 45000 diesel heater ( zero maintenance in 10 years ) it needs a new exhaust pipe as the old one is almost gone
1 42000 btu heat exchanger between the coach system and the engine ( = 2 separate system )
I can turn off the proheat to the engine with 2 valves if I only want to heat the one side ( coach or engine )
1 2 gal . elect . 120 v water heater in the coach side for quite heat after the floor is already warm
when on the road we 1st turn on the pro heat ( to preheat the eng. ), then start the eng. then turn on the fan heater under the fridge + the floor and after the coach heats up from the eng. driving down the road I turn off the fan on the heater at the fridge . it is so nice as I hardly use the noisy bus heat
it is not that complicated as it sounds but it did take some to install . it all works off a wall thermostat , master switch , the proheat switch that is at the driver seat
<a href="http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/crane66/media/buspicsapril222014021_zpsdc5981bb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a484/crane66/buspicsapril222014021_zpsdc5981bb.jpg" border="0" alt="floor heat 4 zones photo buspicsapril222014021_zpsdc5981bb.jpg"/></a>
the heat exchanger is on the left in the picture
dave
I did read a article from MCI they use Pro/Heat now because of all the problems with Webasto.I know they line up at the FMCA rallies for John Carrillo to work on Webasto's and AquaHot's systems lol I been in that line before cost me 1500 bucks
Since you bought the furnace used, what happened to it could be an expected failure. Who knows how old it could be or whether it set a lot in a damp area before you obtained it. I don't think you can expect this to happen to one you purchase new; you can replace it every so many years if you have concerns. They are pretty trouble free compared to what else is available vs. the expense. Keep a spare Dinosaur board handy if it decides to quit on the coldest night in the middle of nowhere.
Quote from: Tikvah on December 31, 2015, 01:42:09 AM
I'm interested in how the hot water system (water heater or Wabasto) plumbs into our coach water system.
I imagine, on the road the engine would supply the hot water for the fan forced coil, when parked the water heater provides the hot water to the coil, and when preparing to drive, the water heater would preheat the engine.
Where do the systems tie together? How is it controlled? I've always considered the ports where the OTR heat coil was removed.
I left the drivers heat/defroster connected to one bank of the engine. The other bank is looped to a hot exchanger in the basement with a loop to the water heater tank both of those loops have circulation pumps switched from the driver's station. I switch them on to preheat the engine or to bring heat from the engine underway. They are also valved to stop thermal circulation when I don't want heat loss through the engine loop. I also have a 3 way Suburban water heater in the heat exchanger/water heater loop so I have hot water while driving.
Quote from: Tikvah on December 31, 2015, 01:42:09 AM
I'm interested in how the hot water system (water heater or Wabasto) plumbs into our coach water system.
I imagine, on the road the engine would supply the hot water for the fan forced coil, when parked the water heater provides the hot water to the coil, and when preparing to drive, the water heater would preheat the engine.
Where do the systems tie together? How is it controlled? I've always considered the ports where the OTR heat coil was removed.
I have an Aquahot unit that I bought used from Nick at Nimco (back when they were in business) and Gary Throneberry ("Garhawk") and I sat one night and charted out different valve and/or manifold settings; he has one also. A simple system of routing things is pretty easy but there are other things to consider. A simple system may leave you in danger of a leak i one spot causing you to lose antifreeze in you entire system -- engine and all. You also may want to use some or all solenoid (electrecally powered) valves versus mechanical ones. But it's a pretty simple place to start. Look at the sub-systems you have and the way you want to tie them together and look at features you want to build in. It's pretty easy to start if you just do a diagram of your individual subsystems and then figure out the details.
I'm pretty sure that there's an Aquahot manual on line that shows a couple of different diagrams with optional features (there's probably also similar pubs from Webasto, etc.) That might be a good place to start, too.
I just saw that Costco has a 52k BTU pellet stove. That should keep a bus warm!
Ok so you guys that like your propane furnaces, do you use them at night when you're sleeping?
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Yes, same as in a house. We also have a vented Platinum Cat that we will use for sleep, but I do not use the unvented Olympia catalytic heater when sleeping.
The only time that we have had the CO alarm show anything was from an orifice problem with the frig. But that was my fault and a whole different story.
Used the furnace at night also. Some do object to blower noise, but since we have hot air heat at home, not a problem
Quote from: Scott Bennett on December 31, 2015, 11:32:46 AM
Ok so you guys that like your propane furnaces, do you use them at night when you're sleeping?
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We have a 22K and a 40K Surburban. Yes they run at night. 12 years full timing now. the 40 was replaced when it was 25 years old.(went through 1 board and 3 motors). The 22K is 3 years old now with no issues. This month we burned through 125 gallons of propane. next month likely more. Been that way for all 12 years.
Don & Sheila
Quote from: skihor on January 01, 2016, 08:32:56 AM
We have a 22K and a 40K Surburban. Yes they run at night. 12 years full timing now. the 40 was replaced when it was 25 years old.(went through 1 board and 3 motors). The 22K is 3 years old now with no issues. This month we burned through 125 gallons of propane. next month likely more. Been that way for all 12 years.
Don & Sheila
Is this living in/near the Denver area, Don?
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on January 01, 2016, 09:31:11 AM
Is this living in/near the Denver area, Don?
Yes we live in west Arvada next to Golden.
Don & Sheila
The only way to get CO in the bus with a propane furnace is with a cracked combustion chamber. That's where a CO alarm comes in. I heat my house with a natural gas forced air furnace that's around 40 years old. I also have a CO alarm in my house. With the complexities, high maintenance, plumbing, pumps, valves to go wrong with a hydronic heat, I don't know how anyone would want it-unless you're that bored. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on January 02, 2016, 01:27:12 PM
With the complexities, high maintenance, plumbing, pumps, valves to go wrong with a hydronic heat, I don't know how anyone would want it-unless you're that bored.
You keep saying that, but it's just not true. They are not high maintenance, and there's not much to go wrong.
My hydronic system has been working pretty much flawlessly for over 10 years. This last trip was the first time I've had any issues,
when the system started sooting badly. Probably my fault due to neglect lately. Other than that, I've had one o-ring go bad, and my engine
preheat pump is not pumping.
What wuold estimate is the initial cost of a hydronic system?
I agree with gumpy, no problems here and love the even heat throughput the coach
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 03, 2016, 02:43:56 AM
What wuold estimate is the initial cost of a hydronic system?
John, you can build your own system with all new components for 5 to 6 thousand buying a new Aqua/Hot system will run around 10 to 12k if you don't go over board on the system.At 10 years Craig has good service from his.
They are like everything else on a bus you need to stay on top of the maintenance,those guys like John and others they make a good living working on those units I do know that
I think mine was less than 4K but I used a smaller Webasto (17,000 btu) and was able to source Webasto pumps on ebay for $100 vs $400.
Hot tub heater with built in flow switch hooked to thermostat . kick it on starts pump and heat source -lp-elect- reach temp and shuts off. small expansion tank in system to store a small amount of liquid and take start up shock off pipes and small reservoir. they used a similar system in home in 70's. Bob
For the DIY hydronic builder:
Don't make the mistake of forgetting that the parts will have to come out of there sometime inconvenient... and preventive maintenance means ACCESS to the machines... easier it is, more likely you'll actually do some, or pay less per hour for a tech...
Like your windshield wipers, they rarely fail on a warm, sunny day...
Spend the money on isolation valves, and unions.
Karma being what it is, the busnut who plans and designs for failure, doesn't?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I built my system because my coach came with a 45000 proheat , so that is not in the cost .
4 control manifold $ 450
1 heat exchanger $ 450
pex heat pipe in floor with 3/4 "foam board insulation between loops to hold up 1 / 2 " ply floor $ 535
1 2 gal. 120 v water heater $ 135
1 pump 12 volt from proheat $ 235
misc. fittings and supplies $ 250
total cost $ 2055
ps my system is over kill as after you have the zones set ( 10 years ago ) I have never adjusted them so a simple pex manifold would have worked , you can buy a simple heat exchanger that is not rated at 500 lbs psi and you do not need the proheat pump a simple hot water pump with 3 speeds would have worked fine .
with a savings of $ 300 - $500
I only did it this way as I did not want any problems and because we live way way up north in the perma frost .
but the quiet running even heat is amazing on the road and on the poll
just my way
dave
I get where Tom is coming from...you can buy and easily install a 30,000 BTU atwood furnace for $400 give or take. Hook it up to propane and you're done. A proper hydronic system will take time and $$$ to install. The propane furnace works...so it's simple and cheap. But, I also know that a properly set up hydronic system requires very little attention once set up. And everyone I know that has that setup loves it...
Woke up this morning to this haha:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F16%2F01%2F04%2Fb6e13cc2c5ffa132e52a5f8b6601d812.jpg&hash=3ad9e58cd27d05504a7f1c6d236c3ccdc78112d2)(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F16%2F01%2F04%2Fbba3fbabd8744f5ec196d79b01777a35.jpg&hash=228b949b67efc94d4c30c44bd783c2d1c1223c9b)
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Lets go over this-with hydronic, you'll probably have 5 heat exchangers-one in the bathroom and 4 in the bus all with electric fans. Then the main unit with pumps, coolant hoses going to the engine, heat exchangers, Diesel nozzle and combustion chamber to take care of-all for the for mentioned about $10-12,000 for new system.
With propane heating, you have one or two forced air furnaces with one motor each. I use 2-10gal elec water heaters that I haven't done a thing to (except drain once a year) for hot water, and have electric block heater. Granted you have a propane tank that you have to refill periodically. I use propane for cooking also. My furnace, stove, and propane tank cost about $1200. Like all things bus-it is what you want to deal with. I like the k.i.s.s. method. Good Luck, TomC
me too. that's where all electric shines. :-*
And...how often do we get propane furnace issue questions compared to aqua hot and webasto issue questions.
a webasto burner is almost as noisy as a generator... :(
This is appropriate. Our last night up north this winter:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F16%2F01%2F04%2Fc8f90786f18f7d949b1a6c23942c9e3d.jpg&hash=3317996a6dd3b67322e8b5dbcc685243960e2130)
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Thats what it is here in Pa. this morning. Brrrrrr.
Raining this morning in L.A. A cold 55. Good Luck, TomC
If you're expecting cold weather, insulation is every bit as important as heat. Note the depth of snow on our roof in this shot from the winter of 08/09. This was outside Ottawa - probably -20C at the time. Its already been mentioned but the other big consideration is the location of your water manifolds and connections. Our mechanical bay stayed warm with just the heat shed by the Proheat but the manifolds were in a really stupid location and they took a dedicated 1500W cube heater just to keep them mostly thawed once we got around -20C. On a 30 amp service that meant 1/2 of our incoming power was devoted to keeping the water usable.
Bob, those are awesome winter bus shots!! Our coach does get snow buildup like that on the roof so I know the insulation is good. But yeah those are cold temps you're mentioning!!
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If you are talking about temperatures below freezing F, then the snow would serve as insulation, right?
Quote from: Lin on January 05, 2016, 02:11:02 PM
If you are talking about temperatures below freezing F, then the snow would serve as insulation, right?
I suppose in theory it does something but if there's heat going out through your roof it turns the snow to water pretty quick. If you look closely at the 2nd photo you can see where the heat from the fridge roof vent has melted the snow around it.
While we were in Michigan I stopped by our new bus who is patiently waiting in the cold for us to come back this summer and start converting her :) she's a beauty. And she WILL have proper heat. (https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F16%2F01%2F05%2Fb4adb9c79f86bb338cd9955c2baedf0c.jpg&hash=b818addb497d3b6311d697596be315fc9e194731)
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