First off, thank you all very much for the information on converting to stainless hinges and gas shocks. I'm sure that will be the way I'll go once I can start working on the bus.
My next brilliant idea is :o :o :o
What about using small hydraulic rams in the area of the bump stops. Either as replacements of or next to the bump stops. My idea is to use these rams only for leveling while parked. Then retract them out of the way or back to the proper measurement for the bump stops. The reason for this idea is I know that area of the bus can withstand the weight of the bus and this could also double as jacks to raise the bus up to more safely work underneath it without worrying about loosing the air in the air bags. I am familiar enough with hydraulics and would use pilot operated check valves as holding valves to hold them in the down (bus up) position. Anybody else think of this already? Pro's, Con's? Just forget it?? LOL 8)
Thanks,
Eric
Good question. I have been thinking of the same sort of thing. Using 3 or 4 20 ton cylinders.
Ryan.
Most buses use a "tripod" suspension - two leveling systems control each side of the rear (or front) independently, and one leveling system controls both sides of the other end, usually the front, together. The reason is to prevent "racking" of the bus, putting twisting loads into the chassis. This can range from a non-issue to breaking windows. If you use three - two in the back and one in front - there is no strong point in the chassis to pick up the front load, so it would be hard to use three, but easy to use four. One possibility that comes to mind is to use load cells or sensors to measure the weight on the four "feet" and equalize to create equal pressure on the chassis. You could do that with something as simple as a pressure sensor.
Brian
Brian,
I thought of that. It's simple to just run two cylinders in the front with a "t" hooking the two together. This would allow as one goes down due to the rear tilting the bus it would transfer fluid to the other side and vise-versa. Just the same as the air bags do.
Eric
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Good idea, the implementation will be interesting.
Is there room for the cylinder above the bump stop? Not on mine - unless I cut a big hole in the structure. Then there may be an issue of the cylinder sticking thru the floor . . . .
That's the part I haven't had time to look at. But hey why be so picky? Lol
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If you can go into the cavity above the bumpstop could you weld on a nut to mount a cylinder like this? (inverted of course)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.metalbythefoot.com%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fimage%2F5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d%2Fj%2Fd%2Fjd2_hydraulic_cylinder.jpg&hash=8ba0fd32c000322d0dd0da8789f0e8c8587e75eb)
This installation would be positive clearance when fully retracted and you could even screw on a rubber bumpstop onto the end of the cylinder.
For what it is worth, that cylinder with a 8-1/4" stroke has a 12-3/4" retracted height, has a 3-3/8" body diameter.
Don't forget about access for the hydraulic line to the cylinder.
All that said, it is a very compact cylinder & has a better chance of fitting in the limited space.
Cheapest I found was over $800 each. :o
Dang, ain't nothing cheap about a bus conversion - except maybe, the owner . . . . ;D
ebay has chinese portapower cylinders in your price range
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261520653207?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261520653207?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Thank you all for your input so far. I will fall back on the air bag leveling if this hydraulic idea flops. I work on cranes on a daily bases and they use hydraulics for almost everything and modern holding valves are very reliable.
I guess when I have time I'll crawl underneath my bus and see if there even is physical room for my idea. I know there are people in here who know the underside of their bus like the back of their hands. I have the time and knowledge to do the hydraulics, I just don't know if is feasible to apply it to a leveling system in the area of the air bags/bump stop, where there already is sufficient supports to raise and lower the "coach" part.
Again, thank you and keep the ideas a coming ;-)
Eric
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I do not know if yours is similar but here is a shot of my 4106.
Bumpstop mount is plate steel in a terminated ibeam configuration welded to a box section above it -which is hollow
The chain is something I added to limit the travel of my suspension when I deploy my hydraulic legs as it lifts the tires off the ground.
Without the chain it is possible to hyper extend the suspension doing damage to the shocks.
You could go to either side of the center webb of the i beam and cut a simi circle out of the lower terminating plate and weld in a saddle mount for a hydraulic cylinder. If it was a tall one you could even recess the top of the cylinder into the box section above. -but it would be a lot of work vs. additional valves on your air bags.
You only have a bout 6" of travel to play with before you start damaging your shocks if you are pushing down.
We used sleeved air bags on a 4106 they were 2-1/2" collapsed and would extended out to 8-1/4" cost us 50 bucks each. He didn't won't the leveling system on his air ride system for some reason, they have worked good for 10 years with a small 12v compressor for supply
I use the chepo Chinese port o power rams to level my little bus. They work just fine but don't have enough stroke to make much sense if you want a lot of lift. I use a port- o-power hand pump with an external oil supply and a four gang valve system. If you use the bump stops you probably would have enough stroke but you would still have to live with the rock and roll left in the tires which I would find as annoying as a not level bus. Jack
Personally-I wouldn't go the hydraulic route-far too powerful. I have an air suspension leveling system and love it. It is good for about 3 days when my bus will settle down again. One of the great things with the air suspension leveling is if you park on a highly crowned road, you can quickly level the bus. When I stay for longer than 3 days (which isn't often) I'll use leveling blocks under the tires and then deflate the air bags all the way down. Besides-the lowered bus looks cool.
I use three sets of air solenoids-one in the front and one in the back. At each location, one solenoid to cut off air supply from the automatic leveling valve, then one for adding and one for exhausting air from the air bags. Your smart-you can figure it out. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on November 19, 2015, 03:49:16 AM
Personally-I wouldn't go the hydraulic route-far too powerful.
If you size the cylinders & fluid pressure correctly, they will have the same power as the air bags.
I like the adjustable bump stop idea. Sounds like it will be firmer than the air bags, with only the tires touching the ground.
I'm getting too lazy to bother with leveling blocks - pushing a switch is more my style. ;D
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I'm getting too lazy to bother with leveling blocks - pushing a switch is more my style. ;D
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Then HWH and Bigfoot are for you ;D I had HWH 4 point hydraulic levelers on 2 different buses a Eagle and a air bag Prevost they were never a problem on either
I have a 3 point hydraulic system on the MH and don't really care for it they seem not to be as stable as the 4 point system YMMD
This conversation is appropriate for us right now. 4,000 mile trip over the next couple of months with lots of short stops...a huge pain to get the bus level. Currently in Orlando and sloped so bad the shower water never completely drains out of the pan. :-/
Quote from: kyle4501 on November 19, 2015, 03:10:43 PM
If you size the cylinders & fluid pressure correctly, they will have the same power as the air bags.
I like the adjustable bump stop idea. Sounds like it will be firmer than the air bags, with only the tires touching the ground.
I'm getting too lazy to bother with leveling blocks - pushing a switch is more my style. ;D
I'm a big believer in everybody doing it their way (unless their way is downright dangerous), but my way will be a few $$$ for three gauges and valves rather than hundreds of $$$ for cylinders, pumps, cutting holes in the floor, etc. Maybe the hydraulic is good for you; if that's the case, you'll get no argument from me.
Leveling system are like anything it's personal preference,I always liked my hydraulic systems makes it so easy to service the unit.
The part I don't understand everyone says how strong a bus is and the hydraulic levelers will twist it. Then you have the weak not well built S&S people say here, and about 90% come with hydraulic levelers even the 5th wheels both 3 and 4 point.
Owning both the air and hydraulic leveling systems I'll stick with the hydraulic system you level it one time and forget about it for months no need for a auxiliary compressor waking you up at 2 am JMO
Has anyone ever thought about how a Eagle,Dina,Flx ran for years on the hiways without a 3 point leveling system to adjust it from side to side or front to rear ?
PS Bruce there is no need for holes in the floor with a hydraulic system
Huggy has both a level it air system to level and 4 hydraulic jacks to stabilize it when level.
Also able to pick up one wheel to change a tire when needed on the side of I85 late on a Saturday night.
Has not broke or twisted it yet in over 16 years.
uncle ned
Quote from: uncle ned on November 20, 2015, 03:38:35 AM
Huggy has both a level it air system to level and 4 hydraulic jacks to stabilize it when level.
Also able to pick up one wheel to change a tire when needed on the side of I85 late on a Saturday night.
Has not broke or twisted it yet in over 16 years.
uncle ned
uncle ned, I still want to see photos of how you have the hydraulics mounted ;D
If you want to know how the bus will bounce with the hydraulic bump stops, deflate the air bags down to the stops then walk around in the bus. You'll find the bus bouncing at a surprisingly fast vibration. Personally, don't like that. Consider using standard hydraulic levelers that go to the ground. Then you'll be firmly attached to the ground with less walking vibration and wind pushing you around when parked. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: luvrbus on November 20, 2015, 02:07:56 AM.. PS Bruce there is no need for holes in the floor with a hydraulic system
Yeah, I know that for a conventional hydraulic system. Earlier in the thread, they were talking about putting the struts to push on the bump stops -- and that might inply having the struts stick up through the floor -- that's what I was talking about. I like the regular hydraulic levelers a lot -- it's the $$$'s that scares me.
Quote from: TomC on November 20, 2015, 04:51:46 AM
If you want to know how the bus will bounce with the hydraulic bump stops, deflate the air bags down to the stops then walk around in the bus. You'll find the bus bouncing at a surprisingly fast vibration. Personally, don't like that. Consider using standard hydraulic levelers that go to the ground. Then you'll be firmly attached to the ground with less walking vibration and wind pushing you around when parked. Good Luck, TomC
Mine doesn't & it uses the airbags & switches to level it.
All systems have 'issues'. I have seen where the hydraulic levelers sank into the ground - not an easy thing to dig out.
The adjustable bump stops and/or airbag leveling, won't add anything extra contacting the ground.
However, hard to argue with the ease of jacking the coach up to take a wheel off. ;D
Hopefully, I'll be able to add some hydraulics to mine before I have to change tires. ;)
Quote from: kyle4501 on November 20, 2015, 02:35:28 PM
Mine doesn't & it uses the airbags & switches to level it.
All systems have 'issues'. I have seen where the hydraulic levelers sank into the ground - not an easy thing to dig out.
The adjustable bump stops and/or airbag leveling, won't add anything extra contacting the ground.
However, hard to argue with the ease of jacking the coach up to take a wheel off. ;D
Hopefully, I'll be able to add some hydraulics to mine before I have to change tires. ;)
Burying a leveler in the ground is a owners issue I wouldn't blame that on the jacks JMO
If you bury a hydraulic leveler , weld a bigger diameter disc on the bottom.
Quote from: luvrbus on November 20, 2015, 03:19:44 PM
Burying a leveler in the ground is a owners issue I wouldn't blame that on the jacks JMO
Wasn't blaming it on the jack, just stating a possibility. Kinda hard to know if it is sinking if you can't see it. Also, if it is a slow sinking over night . . . .
Quote from: Darkspeed on November 20, 2015, 03:28:21 PM
If you bury a hydraulic leveler , weld a bigger diameter disc on the bottom.
That works if there is room for the bigger disc.
The bigger pad is why I always used the HWH,the BigFoot has a small pad, then the springs can be a PITA on HWH if you don't keep it adjusted.The power up and down on the BigFoot are nice but they can be a problem also.I never cared much for the computerized controls on either I changed mine back to 4 levers manual controls