My first post here.
The wife and I have been wanting to upgrade from our 1985 24' Coachman class C for a while, after completely remodeling (rebuilding) the Coachman, decided we would like to build our own.
We definitely want a Bus conversion, I know it is cheaper to buy an already converted bus, but that's not the way we do things. I am no stranger to tackling major projects and enjoy working on them.
I have been researching for a while and looked at a few different options. I like some of the Coach Style Thomas and Bluebird School busses, I have looked at a 56 PD4104 that is already converted but it has some difficult title issues, I came close and am still considering an 88 MCI 102C3.
This weekend I have the opportunity to look at what I consider one of the most Iconic buses of all time, a 1955 PD4501 #467, Bus is in pretty rough shape.
It is supposed to run good and drives, The current owner bought it in California and drove it to Florida recently with no major mechanical issues.
Says there should be no problems driving it the 100 miles home.
The interior is completely gutted, which is not a bad thing in my mind as I would have to do that anyway. The body is rough but all there, couple of the widows are cracked rear window missing.
It has been a while but I have worked on trucks of this size in the past, mostly Mack trucks.
What are some of the structural things and trouble spots I should look for?
What would be some of the issues to look for on the Engine 8V71 and spicer 4 speed?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Peter
Most excellent choice for looks & style!
If you want a project, this is sure to be a good one !
If it starts, goes in all 4 gears, & stops, - it will likely go as far as you want to go.
Check the fan drive gearbox for oil. Replacement gear boxes are not available new. Ohio Gear still makes the gears & shafts.
Look for coolant leaks - loss of coolant will ruin your day
Same for oil.
Look down the length of the bus from the front
- if it looks mostly straight - NICE !
- if it looks like it starts to sag at the middle axle - NOT GOOD.
The body skin is mostly aluminum, but there are steel panels in some places for strength.
Most skin over the rear glass or use plexi to replace a broken center one. Finding a real rear glass is almost impossible & if you do find one, it will not be cheap.
Almost everything else is repairable.
If you get it, I can hook you up with a manual.
GOOD LUCK & Please keep us informed - with pictures ;D
Don't waste your time. Other than good classic looks, a Scenicruiser has too many things going against it. Especially 60 years old, in rough shape, low upper ceiling height, loss of interior space due to stairs, dual rear axles, recessed isles, non existent parts for body and some systems, multiple previous owner repairs, changes, modifications. Unless you find one already converted and a fantastic deal with above average materials and workmanship and even then be careful and thoroughly check condition of body and chassis. If you like the looks, consider a 4905/h8h649 two axle model with auto and Sheppard power steering. Fewer issues, standard 8v-71, level floors and only a step up back of driver's seat, and last of GM's with all of intercity bus improvements they did. Getting into the bus conversion hobby can put you into the poor house quickly if you are not aware. Choose wisely........
? is that the 4501 for sale in Davenport FL for $8500.00 if so I am with chessie
Be very careful with whatever coach shell you choose. They all are expensive, & some can cost more than you can afford.
Look very carefully before you leap.
If you like the looks of a Scenicruiser, a PD4905 probably won't turn your head for a second look.
If you don't LOVE the looks of a Scenicruiser, you will likely be better served with almost anything else.
Converting a Scenicruiser isn't for the faint of heart.
If you want a standard floor plan, then a Scenic ain't the best choice either.
That said, I'll take issue with the attitude some have that a Scenic is more expensive - ANY bus conversion project will cost the same - All you can afford ;) I've seen lots of other conversion projects abandoned . . . .
A Scenicruiser is the only GM bus that has a standard T-drive, so repowering it is easy- almost any truck or modern bus drive train will work - the other GM buses use left hand rotation engines.
The Stock Scenic drive shaft is over 3 feet long, so there is room for different transmissions if you choose.
The dropped center aisle is not friendly to standard flat floor conversion floor layouts. However, the change in floor level can be a huge plus if you take advantage of that feature in your floor plan.
The full weight carrying tag axle provides a smoother ride than anything else.
Head room is limited, but depending on what you want & your skill level, that is something you will have to decide.
Lots of people don't like them, but if you don't want the same as everyone else . . . . .
My Scenic always draws more attention than my Newell.
Can't add much..but I would be aware of and inspect any coach thoroughly that has or had a rear tow hitch.
Looking for frame and engine carriage fatigue and cracks/modifications to remedy same :)
You guys are good, that is the Scenicruiser in Davenport, and it is in rough shape, I understand that any conversion especially the PD4501 will be difficult, but that is what draws me to projects like this.
If I were "smart" I would definitely look more towards the MCI 102C3.
With that said, does anyone have any specific information on PD4501- 467 that would make it undesirable as opposed to any other PD4501?
Where exactly on the frame would I look for the cracking frame issues that were experienced?
Does anyone know what to look for to see if the repairs were completed?
Are there any other issues to look for that would make this shell unrepairable?
I will admit to being blinded by the allure of the Scenicruiser (how can you not?)
I honestly do not think this is the One, But I am going to take a look at it this weekend, might be a diamond in the rough.
Kyle4501, I appreciate the info, and thank you everyone else who responded.
Peter
Quote from: peterbylt on November 04, 2015, 03:48:46 PM... I honestly do not think this is the One, But I am going to take a look at it this weekend, might be a diamond in the rough.
Dunno if it's not the one but if it's $8000, it's priced $4 - 5000 to high in today's market.
Hello Peter
I can put you in touch with the former owner of 467 in CA. I keep track of all surviving Scenics by serial number, location, and owner. I'll check my roster to see if I have more ownership info beyond that. Previous posts all made some good points. The bottom line on owning a Scenicruiser is: one must be eternally patient, extraordinarily resourceful, and forever passionate. If you do not enjoy the hunt for difficult to locate parts, and you can be satisfied with some other model, than I would say keep looking. I am not a bus conversion guy, but rather a restoration guy, so I can not give advise in that area. I can see that they are very poor choices for an EASY conversion. A flat floor, etc. would be an easy head-start as Kyle and others mentioned. If you decide to convert a Scenicruiser, it has to be for one reason....no other bus would do for you. I have friends that have buffalos, and they would not pretend for a moment that a Buffalo is a substitute for a Scenicruiser. My first bus purchase 18 years ago was a Scenicruiser. I was searching for that specific seated model, and never considered anything else. Since then, I have accumulated another Scenic (PD4501-1001), PD4104, and a PD3751 Silversides. Enough projects for four life-times right! Not to influence you either way, but just know that hundreds of people have attempted to do Scenic conversions, and only a handful of people have successfully finished (and actually used) one. The sale of 467 is far and away the standard story: A guy with a dream buys one, and sooner or later realizes that it is way more difficult, time consuming, and expensive than he originally planned. I agree that price seems very steep to me for a shell. I may have info on other unfinished 4501 conversions currently for sale too if you are interested. Please send PM if you would like to chat or have further questions. I wish you luck in whatever bus you decide on. Take care
Tom
Peter -
VERY WISE advice from Tom - reread it several times to let the message soak in.
IMHO, the MCI would be a far better choice, unless you've got unlimited financial resources and infinite patience.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: RJ on November 05, 2015, 02:33:29 PM
Peter -
IMHO, the MCI would be a far better choice.
Only IF one is not smitten with the looks of the 4501
I LOVE my Newell, but it ain't got nothing on a 4501 when it comes to outside looks. :(
I love 4501's but this one seems to be missing a lot of her bits > http://orlando.craigslist.org/for/5250269093.html (http://orlando.craigslist.org/for/5250269093.html)
The front bumper has seen a lot of action.. maybe sliding on ice? it say Ski Team on the back.. could be water could be snow..
Peter, this challenge is also in the area > http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/rvs/5299702386.html (http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/rvs/5299702386.html)
The "Ski-Team" tailgate is off the former owner's Scenic (389). He swapped it, as 467 had one in better shape.
There are 2 of those old dogs sitting out of Baker City OR rotting away
Quote from: Darkspeed on November 05, 2015, 03:08:42 PM
Peter, this challenge is also in the area > http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/rvs/5299702386.html (http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/rvs/5299702386.html)
Ugguh, YUCK! I'd pay more for the other. But, that is just my opinion.
Quote from: Darkspeed on November 05, 2015, 02:58:51 PM
I love 4501's but this one seems to be missing a lot of her bits > http://orlando.craigslist.org/for/5250269093.html (http://orlando.craigslist.org/for/5250269093.html)
The front bumper has seen a lot of action.. maybe sliding on ice? it say Ski Team on the back.. could be water could be snow..
Tailgates aren't that hard to find, I have a couple of decent ones available.
It is - or is not - missing much - all depends on what you want to do with it.
Looks like loads of hard work has already been done.
You will have fun looking at it.
Clifford, these are the two you are talking about right?
http://barnfinds.com/lost-scenicruisers-and-found-memories/ (http://barnfinds.com/lost-scenicruisers-and-found-memories/)
Take care
Tom
Yep those are the ones wonder what he will ever do with those
Quote from: luvrbus on November 05, 2015, 03:24:00 PM
There are 2 of those old dogs sitting out of Baker City OR rotting away
Lots of them around rotting away -
Are the 3 still in Gilla Bend AZ ?
There are several local to me, but the owner wants to keep them for a future project.
I have one in my driveway that will be cut up for scrap and parts to fix up a few others.
The cost to move one that doesn't run is brutal to the pocketbook. Then there are the issues with storing 'non-runners'.
The fact that this one runs . . . . makes moving it as easy as possible.
As for the price - it is worth to you only what you are willing pay. Take what everyone else says with a grain of salt - you are living your own life, not theirs or them yours. ;)
I only saw 2 of the 3 the last time we went through Gila Bend I'll look again when we go through there at the end of the month.
Larry Hall around Tuscon has or had one he has sold a 1/2 dozen times over the years
Not for the faint of heart....nor wallet :-\
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.craigslist.org%2F00F0F_heHc7DE36am_600x450.jpg&hash=306afce395182d579b42ec1f406d3c5e50ddb66c)
Here is another in the florida zone > http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-CONVERTED-COACH-BUS-4106-/191732405462 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-CONVERTED-COACH-BUS-4106-/191732405462)
Quote from: eagle19952 on November 06, 2015, 03:57:00 AM
Not for the faint of heart....nor wallet :-\
That is good advice for
ANY bus conversion project. :o
I've seen where others have spent lots more for a bus that they ended up repowering & totally re-doing the whole interior.
At least with this one, there will be no delusions of using it 'as is' :D ;D
I checked out PD4501-467 yesterday.
Unfortunately, we decided this is not the one.
Although the bones of this bus are still good and it would be a worthy project, there was just too much in need of renovation for the price asked.
We looked it over in detail, the Wife (the wife certainly needs to be on board) and I both agreed, that this was not the bus for us.
I enjoyed inspecting it and the current owner is very passionate about the bus and really wants to see it go to a good home, I am sure he would negotiate to a more equitable price, but for now I am still looking.
Although when you are on the spot looking at a Scenicruiser, There is an overwhelming desire to save it.
Peter
Quote from: peterbylt on November 08, 2015, 11:41:02 AM
Although when you are on the spot looking at a Scenicruiser, There is an overwhelming desire to save it.
Peter
Tell me about it.
So glad you were able to keep your wits about you while in the presence of a Scenicruiser. Quite a feat. ;D
Jack Hart has it right on a 4501 "Beauty is the eyes of the beholder" to me I could never see the beauty, the history yea
Quote from: luvrbus on November 09, 2015, 02:00:57 AM
Jack Hart has it right on a 4501 "Beauty is the eyes of the beholder" to me I could never see the beauty, the history yea
I guess that is why they make so many different ones.
If you are paying for it, get the one
you want, not what someone else likes. ;)
Funny how some things grow on you & yet, the luster fades so quickly on other things.
PD4501 is an extremely hard conversion. I didn't consider it since even with the aisle well, the headroom wasn't sufficient for me to walk straight up under the A/C. Considering it is aluminum monocoque (pronounced MoNoCoke) construction, with many custom parts, only 1000 built, 96" wide, etc, etc using a MCI102C3 would be a better conversion. Good Luck, TomC
I like the seated 4501 Tom has a nice one, they look different to me than when some body tries to convert one, roof tops and the 4501 just don't jive IMO
Quote from: TomC on November 10, 2015, 03:45:44 AM
PD4501 is an extremely hard conversion. I didn't consider it since even with the aisle well, the headroom wasn't sufficient for me to walk straight up under the A/C. Considering it is aluminum monocoque (pronounced MoNoCoke) construction, with many custom parts, only 1000 built, 96" wide, etc, etc using a MCI102C3 would be a better conversion. Good Luck, TomC
etc, etc using a MCI102C3 would be a
better easier, cheaper, more common looking conversion.
The reality is that purchasing a well made QUALITY factory built motorhome in your price range is the most cost effective way to go. Some Blue Birds are selling at almost scrap prices & they only need some elbow grease & minor repairs to be back 'up to snuff'.
This one looks ready to go -
http://www.rvtrader.com/listing/1986-Blue-Bird-Wanderlodge-40-115924289 (http://www.rvtrader.com/listing/1986-Blue-Bird-Wanderlodge-40-115924289)
At less than half the price of the parts needed to convert a bus to a motorhome!
I wonder how MCI parts availability will be affected by the recent sale of MCI ?
Given the age of what most of us can afford and current business models, I wouldn't count on anything being supported by the factory for very long!
Quote from: peterbylt on November 08, 2015, 11:41:02 AM
I checked out PD4501-467 yesterday.
Unfortunately, we decided this is not the one.
Peter- My wife and I are just a couple years ahead of you in our project. We worked our way through different RVs and had the desire to build what we wanted. I loved the look of the 4501 as well, but they were simply too old for us. Replace the tires and you consider upgrading the brakes. Fix the transmission leak and you consider an automatic. How long does it take you before you can even consider installing a shower?
We looked at the Gilligs and the MCIs but kept migrating back to the classic buffalo look. In our opinion, the easiest to convert look too much like what you see at any city street or airport. I couldn't agree more with you on saving a classic. The 4905's are good, but with only two of us we decided a 35' has a shorter wheelbase and easier to maneuver in campsites. We settled on the 4107 or 4108, and found a late model 4108 that was stripped down, good motor, auto tranny and no obvious mechanical problems. We picked it up for 5k, and drove it over 1000 miles. Since then we put another 20k into it, and it is fully functional complete with Onan generator. Now we are working on the aesthetics and conveniences.
This website is a phenomenal resource. Before I even looked at the 4108, I read old posts here to see what goes bad on them. A quick test drive and a close look at what these guys (and gals) identified as potential problems and I had no regret handing over the cash. Good luck!
Quote from: kyle4501 on November 10, 2015, 08:26:33 AM... Given the age of what most of us can afford and current business models, I wouldn't count on anything being supported by the factory for very long!
What factory????
Quote from: kyle4501 on November 08, 2015, 02:08:05 PM
Tell me about it.
So glad you were able to keep your wits about you while in the presence of a Scenicruiser. Quite a feat. ;D
Ha, keeping your wits about you while viewing a Scenic, or even parts of a scenic is as simple as..... Oh hell, never mind.
;D
I looked at a PD-4501 in Fort Myers about six months ago, it was among the straightest I had seen! It was intact, appeared to be an older conversion!
The guy said it was not running.
If you are interested, I'll try to get his contact info! It had been on Craigslist. Funny, I did all of the communication through Craigslist, I never got his name.
You can call me at 828-310-8111
Jack