Here is deal has anyone ever installed fan shrouds on a MCI with the 2 radiator system between the radiator and blowers.
LVMCI and myself are pondering the idea when we remove his blower assembly for repairs on his C with a 8v92.I know the area between the blowers and radiators when the doors are closed are supposed to create a low pressure area but that is a lot of space with places to leak.
MCI did a crazy intake pipe routing on the C it covers about a 1/3 of the radiator on the drivers side both the front and the back of the radiator.With his summer time heating problem I thinking shrouds and rerouting the intake piping would solve the problem.
The circulation is good,the drivers side radiator is new the passengers side needs a little TLC. What do guys think I think the shrouds will create a better low pressure behind the radiator and more high pressure in front, any comments or ideas are welcome.
We are not trying to reinvent the wheel just looking for a solution to a problem most MCI's with a 8v92 have in hot weather here in the desert
Are you talking of fabricating shrouds between the blower housing and the radiators?
hi Krank, yes exactly, we were pondering using AC duct work from HD or Lowes, 14X14"or larger square to 12or15" round transition ductwork, to creat shrouds, from radiator to squirrelcage fan,...
Would that not actually reduce the efficiency of the blowers as they pull from both side of the housings to create the negative pressure in that blower area? I know that when I rebuilt my blower housings I was amazed at how much suction (on high idle) the rear compartment had. I could barely overcome the suction to open the door. I would think that if you spend your effort improving the sealing of that compartment you will increase the air flow through the rads. The system did work for, ah, a few buses, pulling heavy loads through some pretty warm climates as designed so ....
I get what you mean cliff. Why try to create negative pressure inside such a large area when you could just try to focus the suction of the squirrel cages on just sucking through the radiators. Thus no need to seal the top door, or worry about leaks. My 102C3 also has the silly intake piping that slants in front of the drivers side radiator. Since my bus is still down to its frame, I'm deleting that without a doubt. Dumbest design ever. Those rads with the 8v92 need as much exposed surface area as they can get. So cliff, would you plate over the inside intake of the blower?
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as they pull air from both sides you will need to think of blocking off the inside hole :) or you will still have to seal the compartment good and tight.
I would not hesitate to try that on one side. Have and a hvac sheet metal guy make what you need in four pieces so you can slip it in and assemble it in place piecemeal. Then I would run the bus and take temps on both sides. Probably a good idea to do that first as well so you will have something to compare it too. The cost of something like that would not be much. If you want to make it easy for the fab man just take some cardboard patterns and have him put tabs on the edges to assemble it. Then let us know how it works.
Melbo
hi Melbo, we'll show you at the Dam Rally, Scott, I've thought about replacing the whole shebang withe the other 102C3 radiator available at the time, that was as wide as the fan compartment door withe the large standard fan, then available on the "D"s, lvmci...
The problem with a C and 8v92 with the squirrel cage blowers it just does not have a enough cooling capacity. Tom's 8v92 still has the factory hp setting from MCI around 400hp there is no way it would cool a 450 to 475 hp 8v92 BTDT lol a 400 hp 8V92 what a waste MCI knew they had a cooling problem that was the reasoning for the 400 hp 8v92
Just remember under hood temps from turbo.. Have to get rid of it somewhere..Something I learned the hard way..rdw
Quote from: gg04 on November 03, 2015, 05:15:40 AM
Just remember under hood temps from turbo.. Have to get rid of it somewhere..Something I learned the hard way..rdw
That's not a problem on a MCI the blowers exhaust take care of that blowing the engine heat to the outside
Tom & Clifford -
A friend of mine has an MC-9 parts bus that came from the factory with an 8V92TAC in it. We were comparing the squirrel cages between his shell and my 5C's system.
First things we noticed were that the squirrel cages themselves were quite a bit larger in diameter, the radiators had thicker cores (like two additional rows) and that the drive pulley was smaller. My 5C's pulley is 8" in diameter, the 9's is only 6", thus spinning the blowers quite a bit faster.
IMHO, if the C has the big blowers and small pulley, that making sure all the sealing around the radiators is paramount for best performance. I would have to agree with krank about HVAC shrouding actually reducing the efficiency.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Toms bus has the upgrades bigger radiators,bigger fans different pulleys the radiators seals are good.FWIW the 8V92 in a C or D never had a cooling problem with the blade fans and radiator across the back and they were higher hp.
The air intake system on the C is plain dumb with a bus that is marginal on cooling to start with IMO.Him living in the desert we tossed the shutters to open the high pressure side up that seemed to help a little
In theory, if there are no air leaks then all the air the blowers pull comes through the radiators so adding a shroud would be questionable. However, we are kind of guessing here. For example, if the shroud seriously reduced turbulence in the compartment, that might increase air flow plus it would make the complete airtight sealing of the whole area less critical. I think it could be worthy experiment, but there is the problem of clearly testing your results. You would not have any idea if there is an improvement until next summer, and any other modifications could cloud the evaluation.
I think that I remember that you were not a fan of mudflaps behind the rear wheels, but I do think that they do help in creating a negative pressure beneath the engine, which in turn helps airflow over all. Although I know that my open rear door policy is a bit tacky, but it also appears to help increase air flow. Others have done the same thing by installing grills in the rear doors, which is much more graceful. As mentioned, reducing the size of the blower pulley, if that has not already been done, seems like a guaranteed method of increasing air flow.
Again, I think it would be a good experiment. If it worked, the millions of MCI conversion owners would sure be grateful!
Cliff, our 102c3 we just bought is rate for 450hp according to the previous owner who is a heavy equipment mechanic and did a ton of work to our coach before selling it to us. It ran fine temp wise in about 96 degree temps. But no grades were encountered, plus is it completely an empty shell. Super lightweight. Brand new blower fans, gearbox, radiators, shrouds. Entire assembly is brand new. That being said, I'm still convinced I want to add a remote third 8 core radiator somewhere just for kicks and giggles. As Lin said, if you compare apples to apples:
If blower box is sealed properly as from the factory, radiators are also sealed properly as from factory, then you wouldn't net an increase of airflow across the radiators by merely adding shrouds. Shrouds to me would just negate the need to seal the box, which in my opinion isn't all that hard with a can of black spray foam haha. Tom should try plumbing in a third radiator or modify over to the large fin fan radiator system like you mentioned cliff.
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I think before we add a 3rd radiator I'll pull his aftercooler and add a air to air charger then add a external cooler with a electric fan for the Allison.
His does fine in 96 degrees but running from Vegas to southern Ca when the temps are 115 on the long pulls he heats up.Still going to test the shrouds though it maybe a waste of time or maybe not
Hi All, Clifford ran my radiators through the cleaning process, which I would highly recommend, the bus came from Oregon, then Wahington for a few years, it really did help alot with the cooling, also used cooling system restore from freightliner, also did a lot to clean out the insides of the radiators. It's running cool right now, but it's alot cooler out too, I guess I'll have too wait for summer, or drive down to Mexico, I know, lets make a convoy down to Baja California! Lvmci...
The blowers will move more air if they can pull from both sides of the wheel. If you block off one side, blower performance will be reduced. All any fan or blower does is try to move as much air as required develop the fan's designed pressure differential for the given speed & horsepower.
Taking the charge air and transmission heat load away from the engine coolant will help.
I do believe ducting will help, but I think the 'ducting' needs to be in a different place than where you are looking at.
If you reduce the pressure at the blower outlet, the blower will move more air. A full width flap just behind the rear axle and side skirts from there to the rear will definitely improve blower performance. This flap & skirting will be a very different 'ducting' than you were thinking, but will provide much better results. The biggest difficulty will be constructing it in a way so that it withstands the rigors of making contact with the road . . . .
I wish you success in this.
MCI radiators are up so high a flap has no affect on it you can run one on the bumper on a MCI and cannot tell any difference I tried it both ways on my MCI 8 ended up just leaving it on the bumper
If done properly, A flap behind the rear axle will create a low pressure area in the engine compartment - which is where the MCI blowers exhaust the air they pull thru the radiators.
As always, the trick is to do it right. GM put the flap almost touching the ground.
Ain't nothing easy . . .
Also, if the bulkhead isn't sealed around the driveshaft, air will get thru there - which defeats the purpose of the flap.
The flap really is somewhat a moot point in most scenarios with an 8v92 coach set up for any decent horsepower. Coach has to be moving at enough speed to create the low pressure zone and any other turbulence from passing semi truck, strong crosswind, etc add variables to that concept that are immeasurable. If a flap made that much difference, you'd see MCI putting them on all their coaches. Not to mention vented engine doors. Anyway, I think Tom and cliff are headed down an interesting road. I am curious as to their results. As for me, I'm getting my adrenaline rush using the Delo 400 I bought today in my 6v92 :)
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My rear facing radiator seems to work very well, no ducting or flap required. ;D
GM has already proved a properly installed flap works.
If the radiators & doors are properly sealed, additional ducting from the rad to fan won't make any improvement.
RE the non vented engine doors - lots of functional compromises have been made in the name of cosmetics. Who knows why they do all that they do. If MCI wanted to improve cooling - better radiator placement would have been a higher priority.
But they didn't & here we are. . . . Having to fabricate improvements. ;D
Yes a lot of variables, no one even mentioned city traffic and stop lights, or worse LOS ANGELES! My bus runs cool in city traffic, it was up long hills, like Baker Grade and Cajon Pass of course. But leaving LV in every direction is mountains, and that is what I want to handle the most. Adding cores, was going to be my starting point until Clifford literally showed me the light. He put a flashlight on the other side of the radiator and I couldn't see the light! It was clogged up, externally! I cleaned it out internally too, but I like Cliffords shroud idea, do you remember when cars didn't have radiator shrouds in the pre 60s? Now you can't find an engine without a radiator shroud. I will keep you posted, lvmci...
misting system? friend of mine was always heating up with his mc8, pulling a heavy trailer in the mountains and made a mister with some stuff from the hardware store, think he spent $150 bucks and i gave him a 10 gallon plastic barrel. last i talked to him he said it worked great.
Yes indeed, got the mister makings in the bay, but I've decided to just use my water from the house manifold, forgoing distilled water I've used in the 5A.
GM has already proved a properly installed flap works.
Only thing GM proved was it helped with their system with a side mounted radiator and a left turning fan and a totally different engine compartment with a sideways and tilt mounted engine,not a T drive setup.
We don't know if will work or not till we try but I do know flaps don't make much difference on a T drive. I tried it on my Eagle made it ran hotter with a flap across the rear at the drive axle.The flap and brackets I took off are still in my shop.
Boomer proved everyone wrong with his electric fan and shroud he been running it for 10 years now saving the 50 hp needed to drive a conventional fan
Quote from: luvrbus on November 05, 2015, 03:29:02 AM... Boomer proved everyone wrong with his electric fan and shroud he been running it for 10 years now saving the 50 hp needed to drive a conventional fan
That 50 Hp is big. And here's the problem: I am putting an 8.3 Cummins in my bus, with a thermostatic controlled hydraulic fan. When I'm climbing a hill and the engine begins to see extra heat, the fan will come on and start sucking Hp, just when I'd like to have it climbing the hill. Of course, an electric fan will start drawing Hp from the alternator too but at least you'd have the battery as a buffer.
Boomer had a drawing of his electric fan setup on BNO I can't find now,I know it works he lives in the Northwest and comes here to desert
Quote from: lvmci on November 04, 2015, 03:45:47 PM
do you remember when cars didn't have radiator shrouds in the pre 60s? Now you can't find an engine without a radiator shroud. I will keep you posted, lvmci...
The shroud is there because they don't have a negative pressure chamber engine compartment. Basically the shroud IS the negative pressure chamber only smaller.
maybe just a 5 gallon tank, maybe all you need is more capacity. you took out about 5 to 6 gallons of liquid space by removing the heat to the cabin. just modify the plumbing on the right side and bolt to the lavatory bracket.
Over on BNO back in 2008, Mark Renner mentioned replacing the MCI blowers with the 24V Prevost condenser fan set up.
Mark also put a bunch more thought into his setup than most allude to when they refer to it.
Ain't nothing worthwhile gonna be easy. . . . .
I've got a MC7 and really would like to do something as well. The MC7 has a radiator on each side. How about a couple 24 volt fans on the outside of the rads? Here is a picture of the radiator. https://goo.gl/photos/QZHik7ZA6vfbYsYW6
I don't know about electric fans on the outside there has been a lot of debate on that.Marks setup is not on a MCI it's on a Eagle with the side mounted single radiator at a lower level
Part of the idea of the blower set up was to blow the air on the motor for additional cooling. I believe its lack of capacity. If you could somehow add another radiator or 2 and increase the capacity by 3 gallon heat exchange it would really increase the cooling. I had considered bolting a 70s or 80s Ford pickup rad to the bulk head in front of the differential. Has a frame and they have an electric fan that attaches to it. Was thinking that way the heater bypass could circulate the way it was designed to. After reading several post on not getting any real life out of the engines, and seeing that most people just close off the heater circuit, it may be not enough circulation of the coolant. All the vehicles i work on have a heater circuit that flows either all the time or most of the time. If there is a heater valve in the system, it only restricts the flow, not cut it out completely.
I also have a MCI 7 with the 8v92 and Allison 740 automatic. What I did after putting in new radiators, new squirrel cage seals, I had another radiator built which is 4 inches thick and 24 inches wide and about 30 inches tall which I mounted on the right side behind the air cleaner and then plumbed it into the right had side plumbing and also put a fan with a shroud on it. I have also built a trans cooler using a oil cooler out of a GM and had a self contained cooling system built for it along with a fan with a shroud and it is mounted on the left side engine access. I also have a misting system which Geoff built for me which uses 1/2 in drip irrigation tubing and 180 degree sprays, puts out some serious water, and even with all of that I really have to watch the temp. It works for me.
ED