I have a friend in WW Williams shop today in Phoenix when he called that has always despised the 2 stroke engine said he could never get one to run over 150,000 miles.
He is crying today like a baby his 2006 Prevost blew the 60 series 14L engine yesterday with 79,810 miles and Williams estimate is $18,500.00 to repair it is sad but it happens to all engines lol I bet he don't get out for $18,500 either
Wowser!! Maybe i don't want to do a 4 stroke transplant down the road.
Quote from: Dawgs on September 30, 2015, 09:37:30 AMWowser!! Maybe i don't want to do a 4 stroke transplant down the road.
We're all rolling dice for high stakes. My bets are going to be on "modern" 4-strokes.
thats scary.. the 60 is in most semi's and usually lives for a long time..
But the 50 I manage is a dog at 37k..
Some drivers are just hard on equipment.
They all give problems I have close friends that work for Williams,Volvo and Cummins in Phoenix they run 2 shifts ea and have a back log of a week or more those shops are always full
Sometimes I wonder if we should have just stuck with what we had back in the day. It was pretty reliable:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F09%2F30%2Fd45a857a0c34ee535c705cf3968527da.jpg&hash=1922b76bcaf907cdd198c0dd6170e9ea948bfb46)
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Hey guys
My name is Brian from American Fleet Inc in Springfield Missouri. We are a Detroit Diesel engine re-manufacture. We can beat that price all day. And we can have the engine ready three days from the time he orders. Our warranties start out a 1yr/100,000 mile and go up from there.
If you could pass my info along to your friend I would appreciate it.
I would pass it on but he stays with Williams they are already removing his engine
Are they installing it for that price as well?
Shops being full and running two shifts doesn't necessarily mean diesel engines are unreliable. Car dealerships are full most of the time too. Better to be busy then to have guys standing around. In any business generally only enough locations will open to service the available business. Diesel shops often run a 2nd shift because trucking companies want things fixed immediately as they lose money when a truck sits.
I have heard of a lot of converted Prevost buses with rebuilt Series 60 engines. I suspect that is due to them sitting much of the time.
Sounds to me that the problem could be the driver......just sayin. How many of our coaches have two strokes that have been rebuilt several times, poorly and/ or with many items just worn out? How many with engine problems from pushing up a grade while overheating, but almost to top, how many full throttle it at 1500 rpms or below for extended miles, esp with bigger injectors? How many don't do routine preventive maintenance on them till the hot or low oil light comes on? And many other issues.
I can assure you Belfert Cummins and Williams are not replacing a blown fuse for some old lady like at a car dealership
I don't understand. Every ad I see selling a diesel conversion says the engine will go a million miles!!! Does that include towing?
Two comments.........American Fleet has had nothing but praise from Prevost owners who have used their services. I understand the distance might be an issue but if the logistics allow I will use them before almost anyone else on my Detroit.
From what I can tell in the photo of the coach it looks like a 10 or 11 year old Liberty conversion. Perhaps Cliff can verify this. My point is in that length of time something as simple as failing to service the coolant will trash a perfectly good engine. Absent from the discussion is the engine service history. But even with perfect maintenance bad stuff sometimes happens.
Is that photo his bus Cliff? Or did Amercian Fleet post that photo of their shop?
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Scott,
How did you get that picture of Clifford's first bus? You know he had to lay miles of track for his first outing! :D ;D
That bus was in our shop for one of our Detroit reman engines. We aren't just working on private coaches, there is a huge market out there of charter bus companies that only make money if the bus is moving. Who by the way LOVE our 3-4 day reman engine build turn time.
As we continue to reach more and more people, we hear all to often of people having no choice but to go to a truck shop to get their buses worked on. But sometimes,on occasion, the workmanship and quality will suffer because truck shops are about moving trucks in and out of their shop quickly. I get why they do that.
But the consequence of that philosophy could hurt a bus owner down the road. In addition, buses are general seen as a pain to work on, your bus will be the last thing a truck mechanic wants to work on. American Fleet WANTS to work only on buses. So when you approach a bus with a attitude like this, everyone wins. Last week we had a customer come in who spent a considerable amount of money on his "turbo issues" with a couple different truck shops and the problem still was not fixed. Two sensors later, he was back on the road and was bummed that he could have gotten to us sooner.
I just want to communicate that you don't have to be stuck going to a truck shop to get a reman engine for your bus. The truck companies aren't stupid. They know that you have no other choice but to come to them. But if you purchase a reman Detroit from us, then you are taking the critical part (the build) out of their hands and then letting them handle the removal/install.
Some of our biggest customers, are truck shops. They see the value in having a reputable company like American Fleet build engines for them to sell to their customers. If they don't have to locate all the parts and then wait to have them arrive, and then start piecing it all back together with usually the night crew (scary), who wouldn't want the luxury of having someone else deal with all that. Especially since we want that business anyway. Again, who wouldn't want to have someone else do the hard part (the build) and then the engine shows up on your door step. Put a little bit of mark up on it since you only filled out some paperwork to actually get that engine, and then install it in a day.
Seems like a win/win to me.
Does American build all the 60 series to the original serial number spec like standard or premium or all the engines built to the premium spec ?.
FWIW I have friend on this board that has a 8v71 in a Eagle bus American installed.It set for about 7 years without being used and was running perfect now it's blowing white smoke the engine probably has less than 15,000 miles total.
I think it dropped a valve or broke a liner and will let you know when I get into it later next month 8) any warranty left
We build it back to your engine serial number.
On your friends bus that has sat for 7 years, and going off of what info you posted, it probably would be an injector / bad fuel issue. I can't imagine fuel that has sat in a tank for 7 years would be good to run through any engine. Just saying.... No one will warranty a engine for that amount of time. The best warranty from Detroit is only 5 years and if you read the fine print you'll see what they really cover within the five years.
We filled it with new fuel the warranty comment was just a joke the engine is 10 years old, the engine was perfect it started smoking about 900 miles into the journey from AZ to TX
Quote from: Jon on October 01, 2015, 04:05:22 AM
Two comments.........American Fleet has had nothing but praise from Prevost owners who have used their services. I understand the distance might be an issue but if the logistics allow I will use them before almost anyone else on my Detroit.
From what I can tell in the photo of the coach it looks like a 10 or 11 year old Liberty conversion. Perhaps Cliff can verify this. My point is in that length of time something as simple as failing to service the coolant will trash a perfectly good engine. Absent from the discussion is the engine service history. But even with perfect maintenance bad stuff sometimes happens.
Just was clarifying to Jon that the photo is NOT the broken down bus in question. Right?
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No Jon it was not a maintenance problem Williams has serviced the bus ever since new,the oil was changed every 6000 miles and the antifreeze was changed ever 2 years he just had the B500 serviced.
I spoke with him last night and here is the scoop the variable geometry Holset turbo turn loose and went through engine destroying the engine it's going to higher the estimate he said.He told me a code 39 flashed which is a EGR code and it was over with then.
I was joking with him last night and told him a Cummins made turbo on Detroit what do expect he just laughed and said he would hit the high ways to pickup aluminum cans today to pay for the repairs ;D
I would hate to be the first couple of people needing heart surgery in Phoenix their bill maybe a little on the high side
EGR engines are going to be a problem. Too many moving parts, too much soot in the engine, poor economy, etc.
Quote from: luvrbus on October 01, 2015, 09:44:38 AM
No Jon it was not a maintenance problem Williams has serviced the bus ever since new,the oil was changed every 6000 miles and the antifreeze was changed ever 2 years he just had the B500 serviced.
I spoke with him last night and here is the scoop the variable geometry Holset turbo turn loose and went through engine destroying the engine it's going to higher the estimate he said.He told me a code 39 flashed which is a EGR code and it was over with then.
I was joking with him last night and told him a Cummins made turbo on Detroit what do expect he just laughed and said he would hit the high ways to pickup aluminum cans today to pay for the repairs ;D
I would hate to be the first couple of people needing heart surgery in Phoenix their bill maybe a little on the high side
But was were the reasons for his other previous failures on non-EGR engines?
John
Many highway tractors are in the classifieds with "deleted" EGR and cat converters and particulate filters. I don't know where the software comes from, but it is obviously out there on the black market. I did that to my 6 L Powerstroke. Not only you're not recirculating the soot that causes problems, but the extra exhaust to the turbo significantly increases power. You'd fit right in with the coal rolling pickups and VW Jettas...
JC
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John he had a 8v92 in a 1993 Prevost the alt took the engine out with 140,000 miles his 1998 Prevost with the series 60 gave him no problems before that a 6V92 in a Blue Bird crashed at 130,000 miles dropping a valve so he has a attitude about a 2 stroke
So I have to ask a silly question. At what point can we take the Ram dualie Cummins and stick it in our bus? The new truck is rated for 30,000 lbs tow rating :)
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The one ton diesel pickup engines are not really a heavy duty engine. Aren't they a throw away engine? How rebuildable are they? I don't know if I would want to be pushing 30000 lbs with one 12 hours a day, every day. My experience with the 6 L and the 6.7 L Powerstrokes pulling a loaded goose neck horse trailer (GVW about 25000 lbs) is that it is almost beyond their capability. They struggle, you're down shifting up the hills. You wish you had something bigger to do it, like a class 8 highway tractor with a heavy duty engine. Sure some people soup them up, but that reduces their longevity. They are a great engine for occasionally pulling heavy loads, but a heavy duty engine such as what is fitted in highway buses and class 8 tractors is preferable IMO.
JC
Makes sense.
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There was a protracted and sometimes very "energetic" discussion about this exact subject a while ago, and the general consensus of opinion was that pickup truck engines only belong in pickups, regardless of how much power and torque they produce. They have no place in large heavy vehicles like ours, especially if they're driven more than very occasionally.
John
It does make sense. I was just thinking the newest ram dualie was rated for 30k which is insane. It may be able to pull it but can it stop it!? It just seems to be hit or miss with the reliability of our bus engines. But it seems if you manage to keep them cool and give em fresh oil when they are due, they should keep on ticking...until they stop lol
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Quote from: Scott Bennett on October 02, 2015, 07:50:37 AM
It does make sense. I was just thinking the newest ram dualie was rated for 30k which is insane. It may be able to pull it but can it stop it!? It just seems to be hit or miss with the reliability of our bus engines. But it seems if you manage to keep them cool and give em fresh oil when they are due, they should keep on ticking...until they stop lol
IMO (which doens't really count for much), the best way to assure expensive noises and a lack of reliability is to try to use an undersized, underspec'ed engine in a big, heavy vehicle.
It is funny we would haul 20,000 lbs and be 30,000 lbs gross with Chevy 1 tons with 454 gasoline engines pulling a tandem dual axle gooseneck 24 ft trailers back in the 80's
If a Powerstroke identical to the one in my truck falls from the sky, I will volunteer to try it in my bus.
Quote from: mc6er on October 02, 2015, 12:38:49 PM
If a Powerstroke identical to the one in my truck falls from the sky, I will volunteer to try it in my bus.
We ran a 7.3 Powersmoke for a few years in a fertilizer delivery truck that grossed around 28,000. It performed more than adequately. I have owned a succession of 7.3s and now a 6.0 which I realize is generally known as a mobile grenade. It has however got a scary amount of power - I can't compare it directly to any of my 7.3s because I don't pull the same loads but the 6.0 is better although it definitely slurps more fuel. If the 6.7 is really as much better than my 6.0 as I think it is, then I don't see why it wouldn't make an acceptable transplant.
This turned into another very interesting thread. Talk of EGR's, DPF's, small cummins pulling big loads (lol) and powerstrokes in buses!! Always gets my attention... The Duramax is not a candidate either, and i love that engine!! It's my daily driver and i use one for work, pulling a T770 bobcat around on a fifth wheel gooseneck. Gross weight is somewhere between 24 and 26k depending on how much fuel I'm carrying. It's a 09 GMC dually with EGR and diesel fired DPF. Luckily this one doesn't require DEF fluid. We have since got rid of our fleet of fords except for our 01 7.3 Half a million kms. and it still works every day!! Severely underpowered though. My choice through experience for an alternative to a two stroke in your 35 ft. bus would be either an L10 Cummins or a 3306 CAT. You can stick your foot into these engines until the devil tells you stop and they just keep pullin'. If you require more power for a bigger bus then an M11 cummins, 370 Hp or a C12 Cat. Pre-emission of course! I have run a lot of miles in all of these I have mentioned including the northern ice roads. With proper maintenance and care these engines go a long way!! And so do the two stroke Detroits if they are driven properly and maintained. Can't stress that enough. Educating yourself about diesels before you decide to jump in the seat and drive your dream down the road will save you a ridiculous amount of money. I know through reading the different threads on here, there are several individuals who have spent their lives putting miles behind them in one form or another and can tell right away through the sound of their engine or the color of exhaust that there may be a problem, even before a light comes on, on the dash... And there are some that can't even find the governor or compressor on their 871 (poke poke jab jab) Lol. Yes its a learning curve for us all. OUCH on that $18,000 engine job. I really hope it doesn't happen again to that guy.
Greg
He is ok but it is going to be over 25k now, but he is not complaining to much they showed him a bill for almost 50gs on a rebuild on DD13 in a Setra
50 Big Ones's. Think I would just hire a wrecker to pull me around. Home James.
Seems like a 60 series is cheaper to rebuild than a 8v71 or 8v92 at a DD dealer and his bus is worth the rebuild price