Pulled the dipstick monday night to check the oil getting ready to hit the road in the am on Tuesday and all the coolant was in the pan. Had it towed to a shop in Fernley. The guy thinks it dropped an injector tube. Waiting on a price for an out of frame overhaul. When I pulled the axles for the tow there was a lot of metal in the oil so it looks like a rearend rebuild is in my future as well.
So sorry to hear this :( how much metal? It's common to see metal flake in your diff oil. But you don't want chunks of course. I blew my diff on my truck and the chunks were large. But I've always had metal shavings (tiny, but numerous) in my diff oils on all my trucks...
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It's a bummer for sure but you have been living on the edge the last 4 years with that engine it ran a lot longer than I ever thought it would ;D
Hey Guys,
My name is Brian from American Fleet Inc in Springfield Missouri. We are a Detroit Diesel Engine specialist. We have 2 cycle Detroits and series 60 engines in stock. Once we receive your order, we can have you engine ready to ship three days later.
After reading your post I think we can help you out. If you are comfortable with the shop you are at now, we can ship the engine there if you like.
Please give me a call to discuss and I quote you a price based on a few questions about your bus i need answered first.
Thanks
Brian Stanton
417.865.4420
417.234.7334 cell
www.americanfleetinc.com (http://www.americanfleetinc.com)
Scott there was a lot of metal flake in the oil. So much in fact that it looked like paint mixed with extra metalic flake.
Clifford you are absolutely correct, I am thankful that it has kept running as long as it has. I am still waiting for the estimate from the shop. A friend of mine is the owner so I'm hoping he'll go easy on me.
Have heard nothing but positive things about American Fleet!!!
Ok. Well, def inspect before you replace cause diff shavings are common. They shed metal by their nature so as long as the fluid is changed and magnet cleaned often enough, you might be fine. Your engine doesn't sound so lucky :(
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How do you check the rear diff oil? I never have.
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The splines on one of the axle shafts didn't look so good either. looks like it took a beating. Some of the edges of the splines were gone and it looks like there may be some pretty good play between the splines and the gear. you could clearly see where the splines rode on the gear. Other side was not like that. I have been inside many rearends in trucks and offroad wheelers, but never anything this big and heavy. seems like excessive wear to me, and I'm sure it will be excessive on the wallet too.
So far the estimate has come in at 8500 to 9500 for the engine rebuild parts and labor, not including r&r and could be higher depending on what they find when they dismantle. Still waiting for the estimate on the rearend rebuild and the transmission repair.
Damn! Time for a new bus?
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The bus is fully converted and setup the way we need it for a family of 6. It would cost way more to buy another bus and convert it to fit our needs, and then it would still be an unknown unproven drive train. We did consider spending the money on a motorhome, but it only took about 2 seconds to rule that out as a rediculous idea. The bus really does make the most sense for us. At least when I'm done I will have a new engine and I will know the history of the drive train.
There is that. I know mine needs a new oilpan gasket but otherwise it seems fine
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Thomas, do let us know how it all goes. Sorry about the rearend too. I was just hoping it wasn't as bad as you anticipated but it sure sounds bad. I completely understand what you mean about having a converted coach set up perfectly for your family. I get that. Well, it's a fun hobby....but worth it in my opinion
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you can up grade to a bigger motor since it costs the same for r&r and its just the cost of 92 series which is about the same as a rebuilt 8v71.
Quote from: jackhanow on September 27, 2015, 09:31:39 PM
you can up grade to a bigger motor since it costs the same for r&r and its just the cost of 92 series which is about the same as a rebuilt 8v71.
I had considered this but decided against it due to the fact that I need it back on the road ASAP, and being an MCI I really don't want to have to deal with the extra heat from the turbo'd engine in an already marginally cooled coach. I would rather spend the money on a rebuild than on a used engine with no guarantee of condition.
Depending if all the coolant ended up in the pan, you are looking at the following.
1. Head gasket blew the o-rings under the head
2. Valve guide could be loose
3. Copper injector tube, like originally stated.
Determine how much coolant was lost first, the more of it that ended up in the pan the more than likely its #1. Make sure your mechanic is using genuine Detroit parts and more importantly, find out his warranty. I bet his warranty from where he is buying the parts will be 90 days. Ours is 1 year, 100,000 mile parts and labor, on the parts we replace.
Our in-frame includes the following
Cylinder kits
rod and main bearing
Head set
$9,000.00 (labor included)
Parts only for items listed above.
$3,500.00
A 8V71 re-man engine $12,900.00. 1 yr/100,000
If the warranty is important to you then you need to get that figured out before you start. We would be more than happy to help where we can. We just want to make sure you get taken care of the first time.
First gear clutch pack is wasted, quite a bit of material in the pan. Gonna be a complete rebuild of the tranny. Looks like we will be exceeding our funds we had set aside for repairs, but we continue to praise the Lord and have faith that He will make a way where there seems not to be one.
The failure turned out to be rotten head gasket o-rings. The engine is mostly back together, transmission supposed to go back together monday. Differential checked out good other than needing new axles which are supposed to be in tuesday. Good thing I have a place to stay while the work is being done. it's been a month so far and will likely be another two weeks.
Quote from: thomasinnv on October 23, 2015, 08:22:34 AM
The failure turned out to be rotten head gasket o-rings. .
Yep wrong antifreeze the good old WalMart antifreeze will do it every time
Quote from: luvrbus on October 23, 2015, 10:26:52 AM
Yep wrong antifreeze the good old WalMart antifreeze will do it every time
luvrbus, what is the correct antifreeze?
It seems Supertech [Walmart] is supplied by Peak and Prestone.
Well to be totally honest, I was lacking concerning the maintenance of the coolant. In the five years I ran this engine I never did change it and the ph was never checked. that coupled with the fact that the last rebuild was 35 years ago I am kinda surprised it held together as long as it did. When I'm done with this go around you can bet there will be nothing spared when it comes to maintenance.
Degreased and pressure washed the engine compartment today getting ready to put the engine and trans back in hopefully next week. upon inspection of the rear frame there are several gussets that are cracked or rotting away. I have a guy coming this afternoon to look at it and determine the best course of action for repair. The guys here at this shop are all welders but they don't want to touch it because it's all stainless, the guy coming to look at it is supposed to be a master fabricator.
Standard timing, n70 injectors. What would be expected hp and torque? And what timing pin would be recommended?
Flew into Reno last night. As soon as the sun comes up gonna do a walk around, check fluids, and point it south. Been a long time coming. What was supposed to be a 2 to 3 week job turned out to be almost 5 months of heartache. Praying hard I make the 620 miles with no problems.
Wow Thomas, 5 months? I know you had a lot of work done but that's incredible. If I ever have serious trouble with my 8V92TA, American Fleet's rebuilt will be the way I fix mine. What was the final cost of repairs?? I would run it around close for a few days before I got too far from repair shop to check for problems as I've found there is always some little issues pop up and the road ain't the best place to find them. Take care and good luck.
Time gets away from you Glen I have one I am finishing up ,the poor guy bought a engine and transmission from a shady E bay seller that was supposed to be a 75,000 mile engine that was total junk
Then he had to deal with the trucking co that broke all the components when they flipped the engine on the dock. He only got a few bucks from that ordeal which took months and no where even close to pay for the parts.
Then we needed some OEM parts that took for ever to get. I had to use both engines to build one and still waiting a few parts it's taken well over a year but I can see the train coming.I know Derrick had some of the same problems and is probably over budget big time.
Like you say I would go find me a long grade and work the engine before I took off on 600 mile trip with no towns or service in Nev for 200 miles.My guy is lucky I am not charging him labor just trying to help him out in tough times
Your a goodun Cliff helping folks the way you do as I've learned a heck of a lot from you on my 2 stroke. I would jump on a complete motor or trans if I needed one and wouldn't look back. I'm the most impatience fella around as my lovely wife puts it. Probably have to hock the wife but you gotta do what you gotta do. ;D
I can say without a doubt if our 6v92 goes on the 9, I'm stripping the bus and scrapping it. If the 8v92TA DDEC II goes on our 102, it's getting a 4 stroke. And a good kick in the rear bumper for letting me down.
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Other than a couple minor oil leaks and the jakes not working it was a good trip. Bus ran good and strong the whole way. That's more miles than I care to do in one day but I only had the weekend to do it. Total cost has exceeded 20K.
Glad you're done and it's behind you now.
Now time to take a deep financial breath and enjoy your bus as long as you can. Heaven knows you have more invested now than you'll ever get back from it if you sell, so just enjoy it every moment
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I hope you are able to enjoy every bit of the money you have spent on your coach.
I don't know what price i will put on the freedom & flexibility that our motor home allows us to have on trips. But, I haven't come close to it yet. ;D
How is the transmission from United working for you,did your guy install another filter if not you need too United requires a filter on the suction and the return line or it will void the warranty just for your information Allison also requires the same now
N70 injectors will give you 320hp and 860lb/ft torque.
Did you say "standard timing"?
Should it be "advanced timing"?
Won't this be a bit smokey under load with N70's?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Cliff I ended up getting the transmission from Penske, as for the filter there is one external filter on the side. Bus runs great, trans shifts great. Used a gallon in 600 miles, seems excessive to me. Cold start this morning it rolled some blue smoke for a few minutes.
Yes, standard timing, and yes it will roll more smoke than before under heavy acceleration.
As for the money spent, it's just one of those things, a little here a little there and before you know it you've been bitten. You get so far into something that you feel like I can't back out now.
Talked to the mechanic today and asked him if he used the detroit loader, his reply was "I used a smooth sleeve so as not to damage the scraper rings", so I guess that translates to 'no'. He also said that using a gallon of oil in the first 600 miles is not unreasonable. I really do hope I'm wrong on this, but I think I smell BS.
However it did have several hours of run time mostly at idle while dealing with the transmission issues, not being placed under a load. I suppose this could contribute to excessive oil consumption due to cylinder glazing and not seating the rings properly, leading to an extended breakin period? Maybe I'm grasping at straws here......
Quote from: thomasinnv on February 14, 2016, 03:35:18 PM
He also said that using a gallon of oil in the first 600 miles is not unreasonable. I really do hope I'm wrong on this, but I think I smell BS.
That mileage figure might be correct if he put 15-40 in the oil pan. Seems a bit excessive if he used straight 40wt, then again, it is being broken in.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
RJ it is delo 100 40wt
The oil rings are like glass I broke a few even using the Kent/Moore loader,sad part you cannot see the oil rings through the covers.Just watch your drain tubes if you get excessive oil from the tubes he broke 1 or 2.I wouldn't be to alarmed about a gal in 600 miles now but when you get around 5k miles using a gal in 600 miles I would.Fwiw if he didn't turn the gap on the oil ring 180 degrees apart it may take take awhile to stop using oil
I spoke with that guy does he have any DD tools I wonder if he had away to pull the vacuum on wrist pin seals and had the tool to install seals or used a golf ball.
Sorry I knew you where in trouble on the transmission when I spoke to him he had no idea what he was doing, a clutch pack replacement is a slam dunk on a 740
Thomas,
Glad to hear you are back on the road, but I am a little bummed you had to suffer through 5 months of waiting. Would loved to at least gotten some kind of communication from you about possibly buying your engine from us, but never did.
As well as building 20 Series 60 bus engines a month with genuine Detroit parts, we do build (3-4) 2 cycles every month for customers. And, we do SELL parts if anyone can't find what they are looking for. It doesn't hurt anyone to call us and ask, the worse we can say is "we don't have that".
If I read the numbers correctly, including the HT-740, you spent around $20,000.00 including labor correct? That's not bad. We would have been at $12,900.00 ($1,200.00 shipping round trip) for the complete engine plus $3,700.00 (includes shipping) for the transmission, which comes with a 4 year unlimited mile parts and labor warranty. The total time for the engine and transmission to land on your door, 7 days.
At the end of the day, you can't fault anyone for making their own decision on how to spend their money. But educating yourself on WHO to spend your money with is critical between being told the initial diagnosis is one amount, and then you end up spending double that.
Quote from: luvrbus on February 14, 2016, 03:58:31 PM
I wonder if he had away to pull the vacuum on wrist pin seals.
this is a big deal (IMO). probably in the top 2-3 things rebuilding a DD that needs done without flaw.. i would make him show me his tool...
And based on the questions he queried Clifford... i'd have made different decisions... oh well.
I doubt he tested the seals Donald the cup for those cost 45 bucks now,I nearly pass out when Derrick told me what they charged him to dyno his transmission.The guy had his transmission so screwed I told Derrick to buy him a rebuilt one from United or Penske and be done with it was never going to last
Lesson here somewhere. Don't let anybody work on your engines or trans unless they know what they're doing. Hard to do if you're broke down on the road. Somebody told me even "Stewart & Stevenson" doesn't have 2 stroke guys at all locations. If needed, I think Brian's number would be the first on my list. Sounds like they have a plan and anybody ought to be able to install the set up. Hope it straightens out on you. Could just be a break-in fluke.
RE a gallon in 600 miles.
I don't know if it applies here, but if my 8v92 is filled to the full mark, it doesn't take long to drop the oil level to just barely above the add mark, then takes a lot longer to drop to the add mark.
Maybe yours is the same ?
( I'm using Delo 100 40wt )
The owner of the shop was a friend of mine i have known for several years, I originally called him not to take my bus there, but to inquire if he knew any good 2 stroke mechanics in the area. He had just hired this guy a few months prior and said that he came highly recommended by many. The mechanic said he was detroit and allison certified and said he had been wrenching on 2 strokes for 20 years, and had rebuilt too many allisons to count. He sure talked the talk in the beginning. Taking my bus there was not a decision I took lightly, there are too many horror stories concerning mechanics getting their hands on these things and messing them up. I was assured that he was equipped and able to do the job, and had done many many before. I made it extremely clear to the shop owner how important it was that the mechanic know what he was doing before I had the bus taken there, I guess he found out his new mechanic wasn't what he thought he was. I feel bad for the mechanic, he has really been humbled, he really is such a nice guy, but he definitely got in over his head.
i would not begin to "fault" anyone one over oil consumption till i had at least 1-200 hours at full load rpm....
Quote from: eagle19952 on February 15, 2016, 05:44:11 PM
i would not begin to "fault" anyone one over oil consumption till i had at least 1-200 hours at full load rpm....
And that 1-200 hours will also tell you if you have a "sweet spot" on the dipstick for an oil level that your engine likes. I *definitely* would not keep filling right up to the "high" mark if I was seeing oil consumption that bothered me.
When I got my 3751 it has a bad hole. After diagnosing smoke was coming from #1. Also visual inspection of piston revealed oil on the sides of the piston in the liner. Also that hole was low on compression. I pulled the head and tore into it. It had a bent rod and broken oil control rings. The bottom of the liner was also worn from the bent rod rubbing it. It was a Crazy discovery. After the repair all seemed fine but after about 1000 miles it started smoking a little. I pulled the exhaust manifold and smoke is #1 again. Small oil droplets are on the sides of the piston. I'm getting ready to pull the piston and see what's going on. I had the local shop do the new piston and load the kit for me. They do 2 strokes every week in their shop so I trust their work but my guess is this one either the rings are bad or the wrist pin seal. I will soon find out. It's got about 10,000 miles on it and it's not worse or better. I'm using about 1/2 gallon amd leaking maybe a quart every 1000 miles. Just a little blueish smoke puffs at start up and idle until warm then it's almost invisible. I have a few oil leaks but I'm looking forward to seeing what's up with that hole. Compression is really good on it. It's probably not worth even looking into but I have a small oil leak coming from the oil perimeter seal on the head that's driving me nuts so I'm going to pull the head anyway. Gm's are so easy to pull the heads on especially the IL6 it's only a days work to tear it apart and get it back together. I'm leaning towards oil control ring issue, but nothing will surprise me and it's always fun to work on the bus.
Finding a machine shop that knows how to rebuild the older engines heads are getting to be a thing of the past.Not all blue smoke are oil ring problems I have seen people just lap the valves and the guides are so worn they suck the oil.
Now days DD doesn't sell the liners in sizes 1,2,3,4 you buy standard or oversize sometimes it takes days and a lot of work to fit the new liners to the old 71 series blocks.
Lol I am not one that buys the sweet spot theory if it throws the 1st gal out something is wrong