I'm planning to drive the Gillig two-and-a-half hours tomorrow to paint the other side, but today I took a ten mile interstate trip as a check ride and to pick up supplies for the trip. Bus ran great, but when I arrived, the back was covered with oil, and oil was dripping from a number of places. The leak is not bad enough for me to see it's source, and it was not seriously low on the stick. I added a bit and drove home.
Any ideas where to look first? It did over heat yesterday because of a ruptured 5/16" hose from top of expansion tank to top of engine. Replaced it and another small hose this morning. That repair seems fine, but the heat could have damaged something. Engine ran great as usual.
I covet the collective wisdom.
Jim
Probably the high pressure oil pump or hose for the injectors "where art thou Kevin"
Crap, My crystal ball is out for repairs.
Your description is a bit vague. Wash the engine and then run it. Is it heaviest on the street or curb side?
Believe I've found the leak. Appears to be seeping where oil cooler bolts to block. Gonna pull that and see if a new gasket will fix it.
Remember to drain the coolant first.
Quote from: azdieselman on September 08, 2015, 07:52:53 AM
Remember to drain the coolant first.
Did not know that. Thanks.
Learned today that the reason the back of the bus gets covered with oil in a few miles has nothing to do with the seep around the oil cooler or the one at the alternator shaft. When I finally got my head back to the problem and did a proper oil level check, I learned that the crankcase was WAY overfull. I drained about 2-1/2 gallons before getting back to normal level on the stick. Not sure how I flubbed that check so badly last Monday, but I did.
At this point, I do not know what is getting into the oil or how. It does not appear to be water. That much water would surely make the oil look worse than it does. What I drained into a bucket has a faint cloud of gray, but mostly looks and feels like oil.
Monday I will find some place that does oil analysis and find out for sure what is contaminating. In the short term, I'm stumped. FWIW, the transmission fluid level is also high, and that fluid looks less bright red than it used to.
The oil discharge started after the engine overheated last Sunday. Obviously it's pouring out of the valve cover vent tube and the fan is sending it everywhere. Of course this could be a head gasket, but the engine still runs perfectly.
I'm open to any guidance or educated guesses. I'll post results after I get oil analysis. I'm not planning to do any more to the bus until I get that result. As always, thanks for your help.
Jim H.
My first guess is fuel is getting into your engine oil. I'm not familiar with that engine to offer an educated guess, but possibly from an injector. In regards to the transmission, that's an interesting one. Did you check it with the engine running? If not, it will show over full on the stick.
Engine was off when I checked transmission. I have the alternator oil lines disconnected, so I cannot start it. I was just checking other stuff while I was at it.
"Making oil" is a classic sign of a leaking injector. Someone familiar with the engine will chime in soon with an educated guess.
The fuel supply pump can blow a seal and fill the engine with fuel,I think Kevin is in Vegas for the weekend he worked for IH and likes those engines ??? they can be a real PITA for me so I call Kevin
The oil discharge started after the engine overheated last Sunday.
What I drained into a bucket has a faint cloud of gray
Classic for water and overheating...have u looked under the valve cover ?
While cold, crack open oil pan drain plug a couple of turns....if coolant drips/runs out, let it drip/run to see how much. If only oil re-tighten. You never want to allow a diesel to overheat; they aren't as forgiving as a gas engine.
That engine doesn't like to be idled either the ones the wholesale grocery people have here the oil samples always came back with excess fuel dilution till they finally stopped idling for long periods for the AC but that is probably not going to be your problem ???
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 12, 2015, 12:44:40 PM
While cold, crack open oil pan drain plug a couple of turns....if coolant drips/runs out, let it drip/run to see how much. If only oil re-tighten. You never want to allow a diesel to overheat; they aren't as forgiving as a gas engine.
I drained 2-1/2 gallons into a bucket. Does not look like water to me.
Growing more confident that I have a blown head gasket. The oil in the bucket sat from Saturday until today. I used a suction tube to pull from the bottom and got water. Thinking back, I also realized that the engine wanted to blow coolant out of the fill port on the expansion tank when I cranked it Saturday morning. Sure seems like a head gasket symptom to me, but I'll listen to guidance here.
I'm now attempting to source parts. I bought an oil analysis kit, and I'm sending that to Carolina Tractor's lab in Raleigh, but I know for certain that I have water in the pan. Seems to be a wide range in parts prices. Any guidance on what to buy and from whom? I'm asking for a head gasket set. Do I need to change head bolts or anything else that would not be included in the kit?
This does not appear to be a major job. I've changed lots of head gaskets on gasoline engines, and I will be assisted by a friend who is an experienced diesel mechanic. I left the engine access panel accessible under our bed when I insulated and paneled the back of the bus. I've not yet searched for procedural instructions on the net, and if you know a good link, pass it along.
I will also remove the oil cooler and repair the small leak I know about there. Will inspect oil cooler for possible leaks at that time. What else should I look for?
Jim
i would not assume it is only a head gasket. i would ascertain the condition of the head, i would want to know if it is cracked before i re-install it.
JMW.
You need to pressure test those are wet liner engines
My diesel mechanic friend called just now and wants to pull the oil cooler before we do anything about the head. Makes sense. We know we already had trouble with oil cooler. Once we pull that, check/repair/replace it, then we'll further diagnose head gasket if necessary. Pressure test or whatever seems appropriate. If I pull the head, I will definitely have it thoroughly checked before reinstalling.
I keep coming back to the fact that the engine runs PERFECTLY. Maybe I'll luck out and find that the trouble is only the oil cooler. I'm not much accustomed to good luck, though.
We plan to pull cooler on Wednesday. More after that.
Jim
Drain some coolant if the cooler is bad the radiator coolant will have oil in it
Thanks, Clifford. We drained and discarded the coolant Saturday without thinking to check for oil. I'll see if I can get more out now that air is down.
Jim
does that oil cooler take care of trans also? if so check it also.
Quote from: robertglines1 on September 14, 2015, 02:29:37 PM
does that oil cooler take care of trans also? if so check it also.
Transmission has its own cooler beside radiator.
Don't be in a hurry to pull the oil cooler!!! How are you going to test the engine when you can't pressurize the cooling system?
With the oil pan drain plug removed, Pressurize the cooling system and see it it leaks out the pan.
If it does, Pull the pan and find the source.
It may take some time to show the leak. I use an air powered tested so I don't have to keep pumping it up.
Head gaskets are fairly robust, Liner o-rings are more likely.
Why did it overheat?
I can't see the oil cooler letting water into the oil,it usually make a mess of the cooling system when 1 leaks since the oil pressure is so much greater than the coolant pressure.I hope it is a simple fix ;D
My guess is a leak of compression gas into the coolant system evidenced by the overheat episode. When the gas gets into the coolant the water pump doesn't pump so well and coolant temps go up. Heads, seals or liners. Pressurizing the coolant side is one thing to do, but sometime with liner/head cracks you need more pressure to find them.
Quote from: azdieselman on September 14, 2015, 06:06:01 PM
Why did it overheat?
A small coolant hose broke. Goes from expansion tank to top of engine. Hose was old and rubbing against a larger hose.
Pressurizing engine with drain plug removed sounds like a great idea. How much pressure is acceptable? Any chance of finding a threaded port to install an air fitting?
Quote from: Lostranger on September 15, 2015, 02:29:25 AM
A small coolant hose broke. Goes from expansion tank to top of engine. Hose was old and rubbing against a larger hose ...
I'm taking that as a lesson for me. I'm pulling for you that this is going to turn out to be a cheap, simple fix for you, Jim.
i would build a device that would fit in the radiator cap with an air regulator,using my shop compressor, i would pressurize the entire system to 2-4 psi greater than running system pressure, engine hot, thermostat open.
No need to "build" any devices, They are already available. There's a few pipe plugs in the head below the t-stat. I would limit the pressure to 15 psi. If it won't leak, you can go to 20. Your cap may vent somewhere in between. If you have a block heater, Plug it in.
Quote from: azdieselman on September 15, 2015, 09:24:10 AM
No need to "build" any devices, They are already available. There's a few pipe plugs in the head below the t-stat. I would limit the pressure to 15 psi. If it won't leak, you can go to 20. Your cap may vent somewhere in between. If you have a block heater, Plug it in.
my device is already built :) but yours is easier, just might lose a bit of coolant.
either way a warm/hot engine will tell you more.
Ran the pressure test today. The expansion tank had a couple of convenient 1/4" FPT ports. I knew in advance that we would get water through the pan drain with the oil and plug removed. That's where the water was ending up to start with. Fifteen pounds of pressure was enough to push lots of water out the oil drain.
What we also found was a lot of water coming from the oil cooler. The air is down, and a low floor is—well—low, so it was impossible to pinpoint the leak. I'll get it jacked and blocked. Then I'm going to remove the oil cooler and pressure test it separately. If the cooler is bad, I'll buy one and install it. If the cooler tests good, I'll reinstall it. Either way, we can than run the pressure test again. If we still get water through the oil drain, we'll drop the pan and pressure test again.
All helpful comment welcome at this point.
Jim H.
I just wish you luck and hope it is not the liner seals or liners,the 92 series get a bad rap about the liner seals leaking but all engines with water around the liners have the same problem when overheated
good luck
Is the oil cooler leaking internally or externally? If it's external and just leaking on the ground, I'd pull the pan and find the source of all the internal leaks first.
You could have a failed H/G, Liner or o-ring, Front cover o-ring or a combination thereof.
You also have to consider the air comp, But that is less likely.
If you want to do this once, You need to know where all the leaks are first.
Is the oil cooler leaking internally or externally? If it's external and just leaking on the ground, I'd pull the pan and find the source of all the internal leaks first.
You could have a failed H/G, Liner or o-ring, Front cover o-ring or a combination thereof.
You also have to consider the air comp, But that is less likely.
If you want to do this once, You need to know where all the leaks are first.
Sorry about the double post.
Stupid computer!!!!
Dieselman, I'm happy to have as many posts from you as you see fit.
Are you telling me that it is impossible for the oil cooler to be the total source of my water infiltration? If that is the case, I will pull the pan first. I was merely trying to eliminate the oil cooler as a potential problem first.
Whatever the problem is, it is not subtle. We had a gusher at the drain plug while I was holding pressure on the cooling system. Is that consistent with a bad O-ring? If you tell me that the cooler cannot possibly be the source of my problem, I'll pull the pan tomorrow.
Thanks again.
Jim
Anything's possible. In my experience, A cooler that was leaking coolant that heavily should also have large amounts of oil in the cooling system.
I believe that you seen a leak at the cooler, I just don't think that's gonna be the end of it.
I would pull the pan before I opened the system and lost the ability to pressurize it further.
Get a good flashlight and it's best if there is someone else available to rotate the engine if needed.
PS, Don't wear your favorite clothes for this job.
Any updates yet Jim ?
Yes Jim any up dates. Just 2 weeks till the non rally.
Will I need to come through Marion and use HUGGY to pull you down to Palmetto Cove.
uncle ned
No word from Jim in month must not have been good news ,I hope it was a simple fix for him
I talked to him last week. The rain storms in SC delayed him from working on it. Maybe he's made some progress by now.
Quote from: LuckyChow on October 08, 2015, 07:15:23 AM
I talked to him last week. The rain storms in SC delayed him from working on it. Maybe he's made some progress by now.
14 dams have burst, i am thinking it may be a few more days till SC. is back to normal..
Worst case scenario, the bus flooded and insurance will buy him a new one :) ok. I can hope for him can't i?
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Everyone knows that flooding will ruin a head gasket.