I'am seriously concidering ditching the detroit,I hate to do it because I have alot of money tied up in it, but wanting to weigh my options. I'am not a big fan of cummins so I'am thinking cat. So my question is has anybody put a cat in a 9? and also would my 740 allison work with a cat? We love the bus and I really thought the last rebuild would be the last but its not working out that way. I want something that we can jump in and go across country in and not have to worry about if we break down were are we going to find someone to work on the old detroit.
Thanks Jason
50 series detroit
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=detroit+diesel+series+50&_sop=16 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=detroit+diesel+series+50&_sop=16)
Jason, what's in your bus now? Was it the 8v92ta ddec ii?
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Chessie, Not real sure if I want to go that route, I know they fit nicely in the 9s
Scott, it is a 8V71Turbo
I was thinking someone said about a cat c12 would fit but not sure that was it.
Jason
I can completely understand what you are thinking. I too have the same problem other than my 6v92 is not shot yet. I am thinking of a m11 or L10 or ISM. I like Cummins. Ask on the board who has changed theirs.
I wouldn't totally count cummins out but I would preferr a cat, Don't get me wrong I like my detroit but the problems I'am having right now I can't even go on a short trip and enjoy my self without worrying are we going to break down.
Jason
A Cat 3176 is a good fit in a MCI, I like the C-12 pre EGR or about any thing YELLOW I wouldn't even look a L10 unless it was L10E
Thanks Cliff, What kinda Hp is a 3176? Will a C12 fit and if so what transmission would you use? will the 740 work?
Jason
DO NOT USE A CAT 3176. It has an cast iron block with an aluminum space then the cast iron head. That aluminum spacer almost bankrupted Caterpillar. Instead use the excellent C12 pre EGR (like Clifford said). But-Caterpillar is not being used in over the road trucks and buses since 2010-meaning the parts will be more expensive.
Even though I like the Series 60, Series 50, and Cat engines, I would suggest the Cummins ISM that is available up to 500hp and 1550lb/ft torque. It is the lightest, smallest full sized truck engine. Plus was used in many trash trucks and buses with automatic. The ISM will bolt up to the HT740, but have to use a cable throttle control. Good Luck, TomC
I agree with Tom. 3176/3196 can be very costly at overhaul. The C-12 is the replacement, Not a bad engine, Plenty of them around, 350 was a common rating.
I could always get around 15 to 18 thousand hrs out of a 3176 in my equipment I have a friend that has one in a Eagle we went with the CAC instead of the after cooler his has ran since 1999 it's never been a problem yet set at 400 hp they ran for ever in boats set at 600 hp
The 500 hp ISM gives you problems the 400 hp seems to be better just stop at Cummins dealer and see what engine they work on the most in RV's I have a buddy that is shop foreman for Coastal Plains says the ISM 500 is a big mistake he likes the ISM up to 450 hp
After all the money you will get into to install a different engine, you might want to consider a newer coach without a 2 stroke. Remember that our coaches get older every year.
Thanks for all the replys, I got some time to think this over and do some homework. since winter is just around the corner we are done traveling for the year. We love the bus + it does have sentimental value in the family as my father helped me convert it and he is no longer with us, we just can't part with it yet. Either way it needs fixed, it's not worth anything if it doesn't run and I have to much tied up in it to just abandon it. Will the 740 hook up to a C12? Does the cummins ISM just get a software change to change the HP? or is it something internal?
Jason
Yes the 740 will work behind a C-12 but you may need the 748 for length the C-12 is longer than a ISM by 3 inches fwiw same height though,the 50 series is shorter than both but you have the height to deal with
If you'd like a little more info on the suitability of the DD Series 50, you might check out a story in a recent SE Busnuts newsletter that describes the pros and cons (mostly pros) encountered by seven members who made the switch.
www.sebusnuts.org (http://www.sebusnuts.org)
Click on 'older newsletters' on the right side, then click on 'Spring 2015'.
YMMV
Mike in GA
Detroit Series 50 is a GREAT engine-in my opinion the best RV engine you could have. Available up to 350hp and 1050lb/ft torque (about like a strong running 6V-92TA). They are so efficient, when Greyhound retrofitted some of their buses with the Series 50, after taking out the 6V-92TA's, they eliminated one of the radiators substituting it for the air to air aftercooler. Also, driven reasonably, 10mpg isn't impossible.
Three main negatives about the Series 50. One it is very tall. Two, because it is just a 4 cylinder, vibrates at idle-but they also make special soft engine mounts that mostly eliminates that. Three, also because it is a 4 cylinder, it has twin rotating balancing shafts in the crankcase. The key to this is to replace the balancing shafts every 300,000 miles whether they need it or not. The Series 50 has the only oil pump that has to be timed-since it runs off the balancing shafts.
You can run the B400 (3000HS) Allison transmission which is shorter than the B500 (4000HS). Good Luck, TomC
The series 50 is not the only engine that the oil pump needs to be timed fwiw,you can get more than 350 hp from a series 50 also
Is the cummins ISM with a 740 going to be longer than the 8v and 740? same question about the C12? My driveshaft right now isn't much more than 12" long, Don't know how much shorter I can go.
Jason
Don't forget number 4 just to be fair. It is a discontinued engine, just like the 2 cycles (for the most part) with fewer units and years of use.
Would probably be the easiest and least expensive overall to swap, plus the major mileage improvement.
The ISM is 58 inches long the C-12 is 60 inches long your 8v71 is 47 inches long that is why most people use the series 50 in a MCI 9
Just want to make you aware that we are having a lot of problems getting parts for the Series 50's at work. These are EGR models. Heads and balance shafts are the two hardest parts to get. Detroit seems to be out of them all the time. At the last check, balance shafts were on national backorder according to the dealer. They quoted us 9 months for a reman engine recently.
The heads have been a problem getting ever since John Deere stop casting for DD same with series 60 you buy a new head it says made in Mexico and they look it too
I like the L10 that Gary at B&B put in for me. Starts right up even after setting for a spell (like 6 months) came with a big alternator that runs a roof top air with the inverter and I get between 6 and 7.5 mpg. I have the mechanical so there are no electronics to worry about. I don't run the fast lane but I go over 10,000 foot passes here in the mountains and we get along just fine.
Melbo
You have Jakes on your L10 Melbo ? I do remember Gary installing a ZF transmission
No jakes. The jakes make the L10 too tall if I remember correctly. The ZF has a retarder that they didn't want set up because I had such a small trans cooler. I installed a trans cooler that is rated for the retarders on the american flyer city buses. So I have a blue ox exhaust brake and the retarder. Between the two we do pretty good in the mountains. Mike put an L10 in his 7 with an allison BR400 I think and had his fuel pump rebuilt and I think he was at something over 300 hp. My L10 is set up for 275 hp so it is comparable to a 8V71. I won't win any races but I don't worry about breaking down or overheating.
Melbo
I was just asking I have a friend looking for a L10E for a upgrade he installed parts from a M11 to have Jakes on his mechanical L10, he had Jakes for awhile now he has a rod through the block my buddy at Coastal Plains Cummins told him it was a no no but he knew better the internet said it was ok
Clifford... that's the reason I didn't go with a series 50 ..15 years ago..it was originally an off road stationary, export only engine..and parts were already mostly imported..rdw
Is there a transmission that is shorter than the 740 that will work with the ISM or C12 and not need to change my rearend ratio?
As much money have you in the engine I would find the problem and run it they don't give problems when right your guy is missing something that 1 cylinder should not be running hot has a he shot it with a IR gun ?
No he didn't, we just put it back together and I took it for a short drive and I heard a pop and looked in the mirror and saw black and gray smoke then lost power so limped back to the garage and he came today and took the inspection plate off and we got another broken liner. This makes the 3rd one. he is stumped, we don't know if we got bad liners or there is something we are missing. I just want something I can go on a trip and not have to worry.
sounds like the liners are moving....
I don't know Donald, There is something wrong, and it is driving us nuts, if I had to do over again I would have went with detroit parts instead of aftermarket. I'am not sure if thats the proplem or not but I don't know what else to think.
Jason
Bad liners( are you using aftermarket ?),out of round cylinder wall,bad fit,bad rod or the center bore that is about all that would cause it. I am sure he is shimming the liner height if needed
My friend Geoff a couple of years back had a 71 series that would take out the number 5 piston,rod and bearing I don't how he resolved that issue I never heard
good luck
Yes Cliff they were aftermarket rebuild kit by Interstate mcbee (SP) Its not the same hole we are on the third different hole. the new liners are detroit and as far as I know he checks the linner height.
Jason
Bad batch of liners I bet it happens several years back we had run on bad valves causing them to snap and drop
Send one back to McBee and have tests ran they want to know if their product is bad finding the right person there could be a problem though
Thanks Cliff, Thats what we are leaning towards, he is going to take the head off tomorrow and take one of the still intack liners out and mike the lip around the liner to see if its the same all around. He was thinking maybe the lip isn't machined evenly and not sitting flat in the block. I guess we are just fishing at this point.
When I first bought my AMGeneral, the gentleman who bought it straight from Portland, Or. Metro said they had overhauled the engine the 65,000mi ago that were on the speedometer. I put on maybe another 6,000mi when it was overheating-not by the coolant, by the performance and oil temp. I decided it needed to be opened up. I had it towed from above Bakersfield to my shop in Whittier. They pulled the entire engine/transmission cradle out and took the heads off. Yes the liners looked new with new pistons. But-the cylinders in the engine block were out of round and didn't have a good contact with the liners. We had the engine block (8V-71) bored out .010 and put in .010 outside oversized liners with standard interior bore so I could use the same pistons with new rings. Amazing how much hotter the coolant ran when the engine is properly transmitting the heat from the liner to the block (since 71 series are dry liners). Maybe new liners are necessary. Good Luck,TomC