This may be a morbid question but what has the survivability success rate been for front end collisions in older buses?
I am starting work on the front of my 4106 and the OEM reinforcement is a 1/4 aluminum doubler plate behind the skin.
I dont see how any impact would be a walk away event in this bus... am I wrong?
I am planning on doing some significant reinforcing in the front so it will be capable of taking a hit and I wanted to see what works and what does not work.
Thank you!
Some reinforcement would help... a little. No matter what, a head on will hurt. The best defense is good defensive driving, and some luck.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well I have been in ( not caused ) a number of accidents, one that involved being upside down and on fire.
I know from experience I would much rather be behind a reinforcement with a multi point harness in a seat that is properly mounted, than have an air bag go off in my face and knock me out.
surviving the frontal impact is like rolling dice, mostly depends on speed and how high and solid the object. i drove long steel for a while and there the problem was more " is the steel gonna stay put." what happened? he hit the pylon but thats not what did it. well, what was it then? plate came out of the cupboard. and of course you should wear a seat belt.
For starters, what are you wanting to protect yourself from truck or car? If its a car, I would look at reinforcing the spare tire compartment. Cars go under buses, for something bigger reinforce the area of your bumper and bumper mounts.
I have investigated over 250 bus vs other vehicle accidents. Only a couple head-ons and the bus always won.
Siberyd
Quote from: siberyd on September 05, 2015, 06:43:29 PM
For starters, what are you wanting to protect yourself from truck or car? If its a car, I would look at reinforcing the spare tire compartment. Cars go under buses, for something bigger reinforce the area of your bumper and bumper mounts.
I have investigated over 250 bus vs other vehicle accidents. Only a couple head-ons and the bus always won.
Siberyd
A car would loose the mass game , I was thinking of larger objects like a Semi or a large immovable object.
I investigated a catastrophic bus accident on 4-5-91, 2 buses collided. First bus pulled out of the bus lane to join freeway traffic. The 2nd bus sped up to head into El Monte station (probably 60+), the first bus changed his mind and re-entered the busway (probably 30 mph). Bus 2 rearended bus 1 and 120 people went to the hospital. Bus driver 2 was pinned to his seat by the steering wheel. No other injuries to him. Driver 1 no injuries. Bus 1 totaled, bus 2 got a new steering wheel.
Siberyd
Buses were and are built to take a hit and save their passengers. 3 years ago the school bus I was driving was t-boned by a semi truck. The kids at point of impact felt nothing. Front spindles and axle on truck snapped. Cue the tow truck, bus suffered broken glass and 35 feet of right side pushed in. I drove the bus back to the yard after another bus took the uninjured kids back to school.
Now a bus made of composites and fiberglass dont do well. They need a flatbed and a dumpster for clean up.
Transit and school buses fair better than a hiway coach in a accident,I saw 2 H-45 Prevost crash head on neither driver survived.
Sooner or later the bus manufactures are going to be forced to build a cage for the drivers rarely does one survive with any type front end wreck
Even the lowly S&S jobs manufactures are building cages for the drivers area I was impressed with the safety cage on a ForeTravel
On my AMGeneral transit bus, I was originally going to cut the front bumper and create a generator drawer out the front. That is until I saw that huge rubber covered bumper with 4 big gussets supporting it. I left the bumper as is, and installed the generator through the front door. Good Luck, TomC
As it happens there's a story on the BBC website right now about this coach vs back-of truck accident that happened just yesterday:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-34162647 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-34162647)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southwales-eveningpost.co.uk%2Fimages%2Flocalworld%2Fugc-images%2F276352%2FArticle%2Fimages%2F27741767%2F10880154.jpg&hash=9fa7ac694c87e6b377d03e5bb953692a9fbbf30a)
Great article, thanks for posting it.
When you look past the cut "A" post, glass and removed front door, the coach front end did not suffer much. Yes there is a major bend/dent in the front wall. But it did not crush in like most major automobile collisions.
If the object you hit doesn't get you, all the stuff you have behind you that isn't secured properly will.
Quote from: siberyd on September 06, 2015, 06:48:08 AM
Great article, thanks for posting it.
When you look past the cut "A" post, glass and removed front door, the coach front end did not suffer much. Yes there is a major bend/dent in the front wall. But it did not crush in like most major automobile collisions.
Well that is exactly the kind of thing that worries me.. You can see that the passenger side folded up because of the door opening creating a weak point.
I had even thought of putting the passenger seat base on a stout hinge with rated break away bolts in front so a front impact with intrusion would allow the passenger seat to roll backwards on the hinge rather than crush the passenger.
The reason cars crush is to absorb energy. If you build a solid steel cage that can't break at the front of a bus the energy will be transmitted to the driver and passengers. It isn't that the fronts of buses couldn't be improved, but just adding massive amounts of steel is not necessarily the way to go.
Anyone remember the crash test of the 1959 Bel Air vs the 2009 Malibu? Most people assume the Bel Air would win due to sheer mass, but the Malibu protected its passengers better. See http://www.iihs.org/iihs/about-us/milestones/50th-anniversary (http://www.iihs.org/iihs/about-us/milestones/50th-anniversary)
There in no real crush zone opportunity on the 4106 unless you create one forward of the cab.
I would rather take my chances with sudden stoppage rather than intrusion.
I am moving my dash and drivers seat back a few inches but this is due to a change in steering location.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&tbs=rimg%3ACbERs1bf-z7aIjiSjnOQTKszb3eO0PVPf1zHSpOSxbL2OUz1m-zS_1iN_1mEZPHDImZMy6rFTX31BLY7yMz9QGU0n2HCoSCZKOc5BMqzNvEdNpyFhkext4KhIJd47Q9U9_1XMcRE8mUcDn5WcwqEglKk5LFsvY5TBE-bNebTuC7iCoSCfWb7NL-I3-YEacciiDJPIPRKhIJRk8cMiZkzLoRRVxUB64kCJYqEgmsVNffUEtjvBFNi5msShtQNyoSCYzP1AZTSfYcETBviH8Jnt1m&q=bus%20accident&ei=zlrsVZHDG8areO7biKAF&ved=0CAkQ9C8wAGoVChMIkeLi5NvixwIVxhUeCh3uLQJU&dpr=2.2&biw=1524&bih=882#imgrc=_ (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&tbs=rimg%3ACbERs1bf-z7aIjiSjnOQTKszb3eO0PVPf1zHSpOSxbL2OUz1m-zS_1iN_1mEZPHDImZMy6rFTX31BLY7yMz9QGU0n2HCoSCZKOc5BMqzNvEdNpyFhkext4KhIJd47Q9U9_1XMcRE8mUcDn5WcwqEglKk5LFsvY5TBE-bNebTuC7iCoSCfWb7NL-I3-YEacciiDJPIPRKhIJRk8cMiZkzLoRRVxUB64kCJYqEgmsVNffUEtjvBFNi5msShtQNyoSCYzP1AZTSfYcETBviH8Jnt1m&q=bus%20accident&ei=zlrsVZHDG8areO7biKAF&ved=0CAkQ9C8wAGoVChMIkeLi5NvixwIVxhUeCh3uLQJU&dpr=2.2&biw=1524&bih=882#imgrc=_)
The accident referenced, as I read it, indicates the coach was nearly stopped and hit from behind then forced into the other truck. If that is the case the damage may have been lessened, and the driver safer as he didn't have the mass of the coach at a particular speed to try to keep going forward. I too have thought about the possibility of a system where by the seat would move rearward in a frontal collision but feel the biggest problem would be with a solid barrier or a stopped truck. Attentive driving will greatly reduce the likelihood of such an accident so I'll drive like I could die at any moment and be careful. This should keep results of such an accident minimal. I HOPE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAAx9WGtcm0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAAx9WGtcm0)
Great stuff, never saw that report. Unfortunately no test data was kept at GM when they shut down bus manufacturing in Pontiac. I have been corresponding with the folks in charge of the archives and not much bus info was not passed on to them. Most likely ended up in someone's private collection or worst, in the trash.
The Foretravel cage was not a massive steel cage it was designed to transmit the energy away from the driver and passenger it worked on the same principle as a Volvo Truck where the engine goes out the bottom to reduce the impact energy in a head on collision
If you've ever ridden a motorcycle then you know, it, everyone and everything else is trying to kill you...not might be trying but actually trying...
Drive the bus with the same attitude, you'll be fine :)
Wonder if this would inspire someone to get out of your way if you had this on the front of your bus?
I believe the designs of modern cars are seriously engineered and tested for crash protection. One can try to come up with a plan for an old coach and execute it, however you will not know if it works until you crash. If this is really something that is on your mind, it might be good to think about a truck conversion or something else that has some mass and room to redirect and absorb the impact.
I was told that skoolies meet higher safety standards than coaches too. That could be a way to go. Are there crash test results available for trucks and buses like there are for cars and light trucks?
Thanks Lin, yes that would be the easy way to go but I really enjoy figuring things like this out. Im one of those people that if im not solving problems, reconfiguring, or generally screwing around with designs my head explodes. Besides I think im already emotionally attached to my old GM.
You can always do the mad max grill guard.
And this is what happens if a SUV hits my bus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwxdiQzS-AU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwxdiQzS-AU)
Real world, not theoretical, results. It looks like the bus driver wasn't too badly hurt (his seat is still visible and upright). The SUV driver carked. School buses and transit buses are well-built and generally the safest places to be in an accident.
I've reinforced the through-floor mounting point for my seat belt's left-side anchor by now bolting it through a length of channel under the floor that's then bolted to two structural cross-supports; the right-side anchor point is already secure, so I've made sure that any survivable accident won't see me launched through the windshield.
John
Quote from: Darkspeed on September 06, 2015, 10:06:39 AM
Wonder if this would inspire someone to get out of your way if you had this on the front of your bus?
A roo bar is only as good as its mounts. Another factor is whether any extra crash bar will dissipate its impact loads, or instead concentrate them to a single catastrophic point of failure. Just bolting one onto the bumper may be counter-productive.
John
Progress so far.. Is it overkill...yes, until it is needed then it is not enough.
It did make the front end a lot more rigid and tied the pillars together.
There will be some braces that go between this and the drivers wheel well to mount the drivers seat and seat belt.
The two horizontal beams continue out the front of the bus and terminate in a hydraulic winch mount, so any collision would have to fold up the beams and the winch before it intruded on the internal structure.
Quote from: Darkspeed on September 26, 2015, 01:40:20 PM
The two horizontal beams continue out the front of the bus and terminate in a hydraulic winch mount,
winch mount ?
Because a bus nut that sells Eagle parts in Fl who got into a horrific accident and lost both of his legs, I have chosen to take the time to redesign my 1971 05 Eagle front end for my safety. This bus nut's name is Dan Murphy, who I bought some part from after his accident. He is in a wheel chair of coarse but gets around at the last time I seen him amazingly and still worked on Eagles at that time. I have lost contact with him since.
Now I know there will be some flack that with this modification of mine that there will be one hell of a stopping factor etc. on a head on collision. I do not know physics in any way nor do I want to. I did this eagle framing to my personal thought of my safety as a driver, in case of a deer collision, car collision, and any kind of heavy vehicle collision.
The entire front end of the bus is designed the same which I hope never has to be tested. I know, more weight and all but I could care less. I will post a photo of the bus that took our bus nut friends legs and you think for yourself what you would want. I am also enclosing photos of my front end when I removed my outer skins!!! Let me tell you there was no protection of any kind and even Stevie Wonder could see this was a disaster in the future. All Eagle are built the same.
Here is the photos. I will post 3 more of what I have done to my Eagle.
Gary
There was an Eagle owner moving his house hold in the bus. He rear ended a truck and had both legs amputated. Does anyone know what happened to him? Good Luck, TomC
Photos of what I did to modify my front end that is to satisfy me in particular against any naysayers.
Gary
If we are talking about the same bus driver, his name is Dan Murphy. One hell of a determined busnut for sure. I lost track of him in the past 4 years now.
Quote from: Gary LaBombard on September 27, 2015, 08:19:21 AM
Photos of what I did to modify my front end that is to satisfy me in particular against any naysayers.
Gary
Gary looks great! I am a big fan of triangles!
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 26, 2015, 07:56:34 PM
winch mount ?
I am going to mount a surplus 10K Hydraulic Mile Marker winch like a firetruck. Those horizontal rails run the full length of the bus and tie into the shell all along the way so it will be a safe pull point.
Quote from: Darkspeed on September 27, 2015, 09:05:09 AM
I am going to mount a surplus 10K Hydraulic Mile Marker winch like a firetruck. Those horizontal rails run the full length of the bus and tie into the shell all along the way so it will be a safe pull point.
i meant what were you going to pull with the winch ?
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 27, 2015, 09:12:40 AM
i meant what were you going to pull with the winch ?
I have just become accustomed to living with a winch, it also opens the possibility of recusing myself from things like wet grass.