Some of you skoolie people have wondered why gasoline engines have gone away given that diesels have become complex and costly to operate in lower volume applications. Plus, they can be "scarey" when starting them on a -10 Monday morning. Well, we'll see how the market bears this out and I think BLUEBIRD is acting shrewdly. I wonder if they may offer this in the ALL AMERICAN as well?
https://www.blue-bird.com/blue-bird/Press-Releases/63.aspx (https://www.blue-bird.com/blue-bird/Press-Releases/63.aspx)
They have these gasoline engines running 300 miles nowadays then use propane no telling how long it will last.
The new diesel engines with the pumps,heaters,relays,tanks and programing for the def and so on are a real PITA
That FORD V-10 is a tough tried and true engine. Some of the very early versions in the late '90's had problems with spark plugs shooting out of the engine but that problem has long been corrected. It's also a very smooth and quiet engine so that's a good thing in a bus too even though diesel's are much quieter than they used to be. But hey, what's wrong with sound of a 2 cycle DETROIT? :)
So maybe all those Hall-Scott engined Crowns were just ahead of their time?! I wonder what the overall cost of ownership will be over the entire life of this Blue Bird, including engine rebuilds or replacements every one or two hundred thousand miles? When they were offering a choice of gasoline or diesel engines, Crown would mostly sell H-S to low-use operators on the assumption that their lower initial cost would be offset by higher running costs; Crown's higher-mileage customers always preferred diesel, even with a higher initial cost. I'll be curious what the break-even mileage is for gasoline versus diesel?
John
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on July 31, 2015, 10:14:36 AM
That FORD V-10 is a tough tried and true engine. Some of the very early versions in the late '90's had problems with spark plugs shooting out of the engine but that problem has long been corrected. It's also a very smooth and quiet engine so that's a good thing in a bus too even though diesel's are much quieter than they used to be. But hey, what's wrong with sound of a 2 cycle DETROIT? :)
LOL, try running a straight pipe on a Triton engine. The bloody thing sounds like an F1 engine like in the Honda commercial. The revs build so fast it's incredible.
Crown Supercoaches forever! Way back before the dawn of time, or around 1970, Crown had a bumper to bumper parts and labor 200,000 mile guarantee. But a good Crown Supercoach cost over twice what a cheapo schoolie cost. They built their products too well?
Later we had a Crown Supercoach triple combination Fire Engine. Had a 300hp Hall Scott. Two big carbs. Every time we turned hard cornering the engine would back fire, sending long flames out of the huge exhaust stack. Bitchin! Got about a whopping 1 mile per gallon.
Ford engines are nothing new to Blue Bird the FC models used the 361 and 391 on some models I have a pusher with 534 Ford V8 you could install the Cat injection system and make it diesel I love to hear it run
I have a 2000 F250 with the v-10 engine. It has been great but I think the ones in the small busses must be geared lower.
There is something to be said about those old monster gasoline bus and fire truck engines. Those old SEAGRAVE and AMERICAN LaFRANCE V12's were sweet with a sound like no other. The fire apparatus around here(Milwaukee and midwest) mostly had WAUKESHA L6 engines in apparatus when they had gasoline engines in them along with many MACK apparatus. The HS engines were mostly on the west coast but I would imagine some made it east of the Rockies. I bet that was a sight to see and hear when those huge engines backfired like that. Hope they didn't "create" business.
There are fairly new BLUEBIRD VISION propane powered skoolies with that FORD V10 that serve the school district in the small city of Waukesha. They are fast and have a nice exhaust note and tranny whine from the 6 speed automatic. The first time I got along side of one and didn't know that company bought them. I couldn't believe how quiet they were since I was used to the diesel sound in those.
We have a couple of the old fire trucks here in Valley they use for parades that have the old V12 Ford flat head engines with dual pipes they do sound sweet if you can get one started
I hate working on that distributor installing points and condenser in those things what a dumb place to put a distributor
V
Quote from: HB of CJ on July 31, 2015, 02:51:04 PM
Crown Supercoaches forever! Way back before the dawn of time, or around 1970, Crown had a bumper to bumper parts and labor 200,000 mile guarantee. But a good Crown Supercoach cost over twice what a cheapo schoolie cost. They built their products too well?
Later we had a Crown Supercoach triple combination Fire Engine. Had a 300hp Hall Scott. Two big carbs. Every time we turned hard cornering the engine would back fire, sending long flames out of the huge exhaust stack. Bitchin! Got about a whopping 1 mile per gallon.
One favorite trick of the Crown drivers to deter tailgaters close behind them was to turn off the engine at speed, pump the gas pedal a few times, count to three, then turn the engine back on. The resultant flame would come several feet out the rear-facing exhaust and scare the living snot out of anyone behind. If you got the timing wrong or got too much gasoline into the exhaust it would blow the muffler completely off. Fun!
John
Used to do that with my mothers '54 chevy---'till I blue the muffler off. Oh well, a boy has got to be a boy--I did pay for the repair though--Bla Bla, Bla. Jack
Way back before the dawn of time and stuff like that we had several, (eight) Old Seagrave fire engines, squads and ladder trucks. All came from the factory with the 300+ hp V12 Seagrave 900+inch gasoline engines. Two starters. Had two (2) separate distributors.
Sounded so cool. Five speed manual transmissions. Four road gears plus a granny. Some had synchronizers, some were crash boxes. But ... by 1976 or soss, parts became an issue and the shops re-powered them all with hot 671N DDs. I got to help. Very long time ago.
I have been predicting for a couple of years now that we would be seeing a lot of the school systems going back to gas powered vehicles.The only thing that has kept them from doing it before ,is the fact that they think Diesel would be easier to get in case of another embargo.With that threat becoming less all the time ,there is not much reason to keep running these diesel money pits.
There is a propane version of the V10 for the Bluebird Bus. Thomas bus is using the recently brought back and redesigned 8.0L big block Chevy engine fueled on propane as well. big shift happening in the medium duty truck market away from diesel to LPG power. Next engine for our 47 Clipper will hopefully be that 8.0 l engine(hopefully on propane). the current GMC 401 v6 is 49 years old. the 8.0 is now available as an over the counter long block from GM. Tom
Back in 1970 we drove "Flexxies" for the Yosemite Park And Curry Company. They all had that big V6 gas engine. Straight 5 speed transmissions. Four road gears, one granny. I got to ferry one from Fresno CA to the Park. Very slow if memory serves. Greatly needed a gear between third and fourth.
They were cheap painted white, yellow and orange. Wonder where they are now.
That Hall Scott Powered Crown Supercoach fire pumper created big problems on grass fires. Seems it was better starting back fires than helping the small weed burner one ton trucks put out the grass fires. Policy back then was NOT to drive the thing off road with dry vegetation. Yikes! Long ago.
IC bus(formerly known as NAVISTAR, IH, ELMER FUDD. etc) nowis offering a propane engine. It's a 8.8L V8 built by PSI based on GM block. Who knows if they to offer a gasoline version of this one too.
HB. The GMC 6 is slow in the hills and in direct drive with the 6.17 axle top speed is 55 mph. RPM was about 3k. Did an Allison 1000 automatic conversion this year. the 6 loped along very nicely at 60mph and about 2200 rpm. Still slow in the hills though but quick downshifts and the ability to make speed before the hill helps. Tom
I am young and stupid so I don't have a nice story from long ago like the rest of ya's :) but I'm enjoying reading them :) but I'll throw in my two cents. I know everyone is convinced that diesel motors go further and longer than their gas counterparts, but in my own personal experience I have seen gas motors go a long time without any kind of major overhaul. Many times I've seen Toyota Camry's hit half a million miles on their original motors and even then the tranny has finally worn out or the car body is rusted or something. I currently own a land cruiser and several of these 100 series land cruisers have already made it well past the 400,000 mile mark in our land cruiser club. All from merely changing the oil, and occasionally running injector cleaner through the system. They never overheat, I've started mine in -22F temps, cheap to buy spark plugs for, and easy to work on and cheap to fix. I love diesels and they are perfectly suited for their applications, but reading my truck trend magazines, I'm seeing more gas motors with little turbos that are getting amazing MPG and power at the same time. Ford eco-boost is just one example. Is anyone reporting what the MPG of the skoolie is with this gas motor?
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The main reason the big gasoline engines got only 1-3 mpg was they were using carburetors and old style point distributors. Now with gasoline engines being direct injected, electronic ignition, variable cam timing, etc, we're seeing gasoline powered cars getting incredible mileage. In fact, when both Diesel and gasoline are offered in cars, the mileage difference is the 20% difference in BTU's between gasoline and Diesel. Considering big rig trucks at 80,000lb are getting 8mpg, 20% less fuel mileage would put a modern gasoline engine (with the same power) at about 6.5mpg-which is better than my bus gets.
Freightliner has come out with a propane powered truck. It is NOT a conversion. Freightliner Custom Chassis Corporation (FCCC) took an 8 liter GMC block, went with hardened valves, higher compression, liquid propane injection (big difference in performance). While it is about a $10,000 price over Diesel, propane is easy to handle (compared to natural gas). And since many of us use propane anyway, it is a natural. The engine is rated to 33,000lbs. Good Luck, TomC
This has been a very interesting thread to read indeed! I didn't know some of these different manufacturers were building big block gas engines and pumping propane through them. From my experience, in the climate i live in (Winterpeg MB), Winnipeg for those not familiar with the great white North, the minute someone says DPF, DEF and EGR in the same sentence as diesel engine, check your pockets to see how deep they are! In my opinion, nothing beats an old school diesel in any climate or operating condition. They are built for serious duty work. We run diesels here in -40c, yes we start them at that temperature too. The ones with DPF's requiring DEF, not so much. DEF freezes... end of that discussion. Now on to EGR's. Remove your intake tube after a hundred thousand miles and take a peek. You'll be shocked and disgusted at what the EPA wants you to put back into your motor. And you'll ask yourself, "what was that air filter for?" Oh, and did someone say fuel mileage? no, not here. The new diesels with all the environmental crap are a total sham plain and simple. The amount of money it costs the operator to run a new diesel is completely over the top. You're paying huge sums of money to burn dirt (soot) and the costs don't end there. I have a feeling this is one of the reasons this thread was started to begin with. I'm not going to get into the costs associated with every brand of pre-emission diesel out there, but I will say they are now worth a fortune in this neck of the woods and very sought after, especially in heavy trucking. In my bus I have a 6v71, full rebuild on this engine is under $2000 for parts. Down the road it gets roughly ten miles per gallon. There's just no comparison in terms of cost compared to the new diesels. Hopefully these new gas/propane engines can do better pushing 30,000 #'s down the highway, but I don't think so. This thread is just gaining momentum
Greg
Well I the reason BLUEBIRD is returning to offering gasoline engines in skoolies is to market them to smaller schools and churches who may only use the bus once in awhile and plain just want to hassle and extra expense of diesel where the annual mileage won't offset the cost in short order. Like I said, IC and THOMAS offer propane engines as well but it's unknown to me at least if they will offer gasoline versions of those engines or not.
Pretty hard to beat a diesel for the torque when towing. Or in a heavy truck or bus. A big gas engine may have lots of horse power, but has to be revved up high to pull anything heavy.
The Cat 3406B (mechanical, pre EGR) in my Pete dump truck is one the sweetest engines I've had. I can see why some truckers rebuild their trucks rather than buying new.
But today's electronic, low rpm, diesels pretty well have all the bugs worked out of them. They are very efficient and reliable. All the big fleets use them. At 3000 miles a week, they can recoup the up front cost fairly quickly.
I remember a few years ago Tom C (salesman at LA Freightliner) was saying they put road side assistance on every new truck because of reliability problems. Tom, how is it now with new trucks?
JC
Yep the 425 hp 3406 Cat was the best engine ever built
The 8.0l GMC propane engine has an impressive 500 ft lbs of torque. For the med duty truck market its respectable. That engine will hopefully be the next engine for our Clipper. The 5 speed OD Allison 1000 w the GMC 401 V6 gas engine gave us 9.5 mpg on flat highway runs this summer. Hilly highway stretches were about 8 mpg. in city 6.5 to 7.5 mpg. We did 4,000 miles in 23 days. Bus ran awesome. Tom
What does your bus weigh Tom ?
I have at different times had both an F-350 with the V10 gas engine and an F-350 with the 7.3 diesel. The diesel F-350 was a joy to tow with. Towing was a white knuckle affair with the V10. Same trailer with both F-350s. Give me the torque of a diesel any day for towing.
Tom120, 500ft/lbs of torque is less than the diesel pickups. It is half as much as the 6V92TA in my bus, which goes down the road nicely, but will not pin me back into the seat with my foot to the floor. Most big rig engines now have torque approaching 2000ft/lbs. I think your Clipper will be pretty slow with the 500 ft/lbs 8 L GMC.
JC
You are correct lostagain. the 8.0l def not for the heavy duty big rig market. I noted the 8.0 is a med duty engine in prev post. Freightliner is installing the propane version of the 8.0 in vehicles up to 33,000 GVWR and for the most part vehicles that are used locally like school buses and fuel delivery type vehicles. Duramax has 5-600 ft lbs(I believe)and even more in turbo versions. The propane engine is approaching those lower#s but will never reach what the turbo Duramax engine has. With 6.17 gearing and overdrive trans the 8.0 will move the 47 Clipper quite well. Current 401 engine has only 235 ft lbs and is very adequate but slow on long hills. Automatic Allison 1000 trans now helps there though. Not sure what your bus weighs but it is probably heavier than a Clipper. Tom
Maybe you could find a 478m v6 and install a larger carburetor. They have pretty low comp. ratio in the 7's. Or instead of the 8.1 get a 502 block with stroker crank for maybe 565 cubes set up with small port heads and Quadrajet or Holly, torque cam and 8 to 1 comp ratio. Old school dist and coil, etc.
http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/big-block-zz-572-620.html (http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/big-block-zz-572-620.html)
Ive seen that 572 engine Chessie. Its amazing. The 478 is nice but like the 401 the parts are drying up. The rebuilders have been breaking up their engine kits and offing them on Ebay for a couple years now. And there isn't much on there anymore. Would need a whole new Flywheel assembly and hub pilot built for the 8 bolt 478 crank bolt circle as well. Hanging the Allison on the back of the 401 was kind of working backwards but this bus needed to be out on the road this season and the 401 is in excellent mechanical condition. Used 2 qts of oil in 4000 miles. If we were put- putting around town I would just leave the existing engine in it. But we do trips that are usually 4,000 miles or more. Would like to have new and have modern. Chevrolet was on the side of the bus this year as a sponsor. Going to see if they can offer any deal on an engine and components. Go on Youtube and type 1947 Clipper Allison Conversion into the search window. Its a quick video that we haven't really finished. Cant get the link to work for some reason. The bus has a carb, points ign and a computerized overdrive auto trans. Its the junkyard trans bolted to the 50 year old motor in the almost 70 year old bus. Tom
Good question on the weight Digesterman. Never weighed it but plan to this summer. Factory spec engineless was 17,000. GVWR with the engine and passengers is prob 23,000. Tom
Also Chessie there are no Torque specs below 3k on the 572 but the torque curve line is dropping down very steeply pre 3k. Tom
Going to depend a lot on the camshaft and heads installed. Lingenfelter could build one with stumps pulling power at low rpms. Many other big engine builders could do also with bulletproof parts. Forget about turbocharging the factory 8.0. From what I've read on forums, the pistons and rods aren't up to it. They build the 50 series for natural gas usage. We have some of our local transit buses with them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_50 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_50)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-Detroit-Diesel-Series-50-CNG-Engine-04R0044363-/311344678318?hash=item487d96c5ae&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-Detroit-Diesel-Series-50-CNG-Engine-04R0044363-/311344678318?hash=item487d96c5ae&vxp=mtr)
Quote from: lostagain on August 04, 2015, 03:39:30 PM
Tom120, 500ft/lbs of torque is less than the diesel pickups. It is half as much as the 6V92TA in my bus, which goes down the road nicely, but will not pin me back into the seat with my foot to the floor. Most big rig engines now have torque approaching 2000ft/lbs. I think your Clipper will be pretty slow with the 500 ft/lbs 8 L GMC.
JC
Torque was an important figure back in the days of 3 speed non-lockup transmissions - it represented your average hp output, or the area under the hp/rpm curve.
These days, with 6 and soon to come 8 speed, fully locked transmissions, it's much less of an issue. A diesel making 300hp @ 2100 rpm will pull a coach up a hill at exactly the same speed as a gasoline making 300hp @ 5000 rpm, provided you have the gearing to keep the gasoline near 5000 rpm at any road speed.
Considering the short trips and low annual mileage of a school bus, a modern gas engine totally make sense. Think about the maintenance of a modern gas V8, running full synthetic at 10k mile interval. Except for oil and air filter changes, and plugs at 100k, NONE!
If Dodge ever put an HD 8 speed ZF behind their 6.4L Hemi, that would be a good candidate as well.
Or ... consider putting a blower or turbo on you excellent condition existing 401 V6? That was one tough engine. Heavy iron block, heads, gear driven cam, low compression pistons ... valve rotators, etc..
Edit: Forged steel crank and rods? Heavy flywheel? Mechanical governor? Lots of room around and above the engine in a Flexxie engine compartment?
Could you turn you Flexxie into a real hauler? Dunno. Anyhow, just another idea that might work out for you. A custom low pressure high volume low end tuned turbo with intercooler might work very well?
But I love my DD 8v92 and I don't care if it tends to overheat a bit. It'll pull my house off it's foundation with it's torque and kill all the mosquitoes on the way!
Mind can run wild with possibilities Chessie. You are right the 572 short block would make a good starting point. Heads cam,etc could be added. Problem is the cost though. HB the turbo angle on the 401 is interesting but its still a 50 year old engine and has close to a half million miles on it. Would need to be freshened and balanced and parts availability is still getting leaner and leaner. It wouldn't be a cheap prospect either. Got a price last year of $26k for a fully dressed GMC 8.0L Pithon with the Powertrain Integration LPG intake, air brake compressor and accessories. Its expensive but when you start pricing out the long block and adding accessories it adds up very quickly. Ideal would be a salvage vehicle but a large salvage truck is still expensive and expensive to move. Probably not going to find one of those. Tom
Rebuilt the Intl 549 gas engine in my Supercruiser twice. Since then, have replaced it with a CAT 1160. It was actually 1in shorter than the 549! Love the way it has changed the bus, plenty of torque, seems better than the gas engine in all areas. That said, the 549 was one smooth running engine! Still running my Spicer 5 spd. It's definitely not fast but it's reliable 😏