Has anyone done this?
It is something I am considering because the 4106 has large number of components that can lead to lash in the steering and the conventional upgrades seem to have their own set of problems in the form of not being able to remove the lash from a Sheppard unit.
This would be a pretty simple system consisting of a modern tilt steering column directly connected to a TRW/ROSS HFB70 (MC-9) connected to a fabricated 90deg steering arm by a drag link.
The frame mounted HFB70 would mount ( with reinforcement ) in the location of the original miter box.
The only serious fab would be the steering arm. The 4106 has a cut off steering arm that acts as a mount for the drivers side brake can and could easily be replaced with a 90deg fabricated steering arm. The only obstacle is the driver side shock would limit the length of this new arm but this could be easily solved by relocating the drivers side shock either to the backside of the axel or to the inboard of the air spring mounts.
The end result would be a modern self centering power steering system with very few potential slop points that should drive like magic.
Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Use what works and is proven. Sheppard is a little wondering-but most don't realize you just have to drive it with little steering wheel movements. Increasing caster helps. I converted my AMGeneral from air assist to Sheppard. Changed the mitre box from 1.5:1 to 1:1, and had to increase the pump pressure to 2,000psi. I use 15w-40 engine oil in the power steering. It went from 8 turns lock to lock to 3.5 turns. Granted the power steering has a bit less wheel cut, but the fact that it is finger tip fast steering more than makes up for it. Good Luck, TomC
Tom there seems to be a lack of 1:1 and Sheppard axel mount gears that are not pre worn out.
Seems like there have been a lot of people spend a lot of money sorting out a Shepphard's only to see no improvement.
On my bus ALL of the components in the steering are worn out so its going to be work either way.
Several years ago I purchased a Sheppard box for my 4106 direct from Sheppard. They had them in stock, $1200 with exchange, $1500 without. It's worth giving them a call. It has a warranty too.
Mark
Go for it Kirby did the integral steering on his 4104 and never regretted it
Quote from: luvrbus on July 06, 2015, 06:17:49 AM
Go for it Kirby did the integral steering on his 4104 and never regretted it
Links? Photos? Info?
Thank you luvrbus!
He is kirby4104 here on the board he used a MCI 9 box I recall
Ok thanks - found this so far:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=21329.20 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=21329.20)
"the key is getting the Ross integral steering box, from an MCI 96A2 which is axle-mount. Because I could only find one from an MCI-9 (not a 96A2) I had to fabricate a half-inch steel plate and attach it to the axle, and then mounted the steering box on the plate."
Sounds like he fabricated an axle mount for a frame mount gear.
I was thinking of going with a straight frame mount system but still very interesting!
Everything I have drawn up so far looks very doable.
The only issue is clearing the tire when the bus is in a full right turn.
I need to put the wheel / tire back on to measure the available space for a drag link between the frame mounted gear and the fabricated steering arm.
Todd -
I understand what you're thinking of doing, my MC-5C has the steering gearbox mounted like your idea. Turning radius is a city block, worse than the OEM 4106 setup.
I think you're aware that the "frame" inside that exterior compartment underneath the driver is really just the side wall to the spare tire compartment. I doubt if GM Engineering designed it sufficiently strong enough to withstand the forces a steering box would impose on it.
OTOH, you're also in the process of dropping the floor rather than raising the roof, so what's some additional welding?
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Hi RJ, yes that area would need to be significantly reinforced for a frame mounted gear.
Are you saying it has bad turning after the frame mounted gear? Because of clearing the tire with the draglink? wrong pitman arm length?
Quote from: Darkspeed on July 07, 2015, 08:19:59 AM
Are you saying it has bad turning after the frame mounted gear?
Yes, that's what I'm saying. LH turns aren't too bad, but RH turns are terrible - it's almost like driving a 4905 with the huge 318" wheelbase. And IBME that we make far more RH turns than we do left. MC-8s and -9s of that vintage are all known for the large turning radius.
The GM transits (Fishbowl & RTS) have the best "cut" of the front wheels, it's like 52
o or so. Designed for working city streets, not highway use. Where the 35' 4106 has a normal 40' turning radius, IIRC, the 40' Fishbowl's is 35' - much tighter. Yes, a Sheppard gear mounted on the axle.
Another possibility would be to study the Setra's set-up. Their SD215, a 40' coach, also has a 35' turning radius. I don't know if they use an axle-mounted gearbox or a frame mounted, you'd have to research it. Their steerable rear axle also contributes to the tight circle.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
FWIW Setra uses a frame mounted gear box and has independent front suspension as well!
;D BK ;D
RJ - that has to be because someone limited the right turn stop so as to not hit the drag link with the drivers side tire during a full right turn.
This could probably be fixed by bending up a new drag link with a clearance for the tire.
Just guessing because that is the current flaw in my plan..
Unless.. they installed a very short steering arm so as to not have to relocate the drivers side shock, but im guessing it is the drag link.
If I cant find an acceptable solution to a frame mounted design I will fall back to making a mounting plate to convert the TRW/ROSS HFB70 from frame mount to axel mount and rebuild the steering linkage to get the lash out.
I do not know what box is under Huggy but I had to put special stops to keep from rubbing holes in my air bags.
Blew the left front one and had to replace it.
Hard-headed Ken probably knows what rig was put under her. but she drives great, very little play .
A couple months ago a tree blew across the Inter-state 85 in SC and blew the right front tire. I was running about 60 to
65 mph. She did not waver just jumped the tree.
Had to pick parts of the tree out from under her for days.
uncle ned
Quote from: uncle ned on July 08, 2015, 09:04:16 AM
I do not know what box is under Huggy but I had to put special stops to keep from rubbing holes in my air bags.
Blew the left front one and had to replace it.
Hard-headed Ken probably knows what rig was put under her. but she drives great, very little play .
A couple months ago a tree blew across the Inter-state 85 in SC and blew the right front tire. I was running about 60 to
65 mph. She did not waver just jumped the tree.
Had to pick parts of the tree out from under her for days.
uncle ned
Wow uncle ned that sounds exciting!
Saw the video on you tube of the s&s rolling into the median and falling apart.
sure was glad I was driving a 62 year old bus.
uncle ned
Just finished reading the 69 page saga of replacing loose Sheppard power steering boxes with tight Ross/TRW units.. > http://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/steering-box-play-sheppard-m100-shim-or-swap-for-a-trw-210152.html (http://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/steering-box-play-sheppard-m100-shim-or-swap-for-a-trw-210152.html)
Removed my 4106 steering today, sketching up ideas...
http://transportation.centennialcollege.ca/athompson/reference%20files/HFB70.pdf (http://transportation.centennialcollege.ca/athompson/reference%20files/HFB70.pdf)
Here's what I wrote about 15 years ago when I had a 4104. Maybe it contains other information that help.
I bought a used Sheppard gear from a transit bus. It work OK except it had over an inch of free play. I purchased the factory service manual and it said up to 2 inches was normal. I just put up with it then became normal to me. It wasn't too bad except in a gusting side wind or on a section of pavement where the trucks had left ruts in the pavement (which is something you would never notice unless you had excess free play in your steering).
One day I decided it would be a good ideal if I let my wife drive the bus just in case she had to drive it for some reason. I've never seen anyone have such a hard time driving in a straight line. After watching her fight this thing for a few miles I realized that I had learned over the last few years how to drive with the excess free play. I knew at that point I had to fix this problem.
I call the most reputable steering gear rebuilder I could find. They promised me it would drive just like my ½ ton truck. I couldn't wait until the gear came back. It would be well worth the $1000 bucks that I spent but didn't really have. I installed it and the first thing I noticed was it felt harder to steer at idle. The test drive was disappointing, the free play was a little worse and it required more effort to steer when setting still. I called the rebuilder, they (let's call them Bill) lead me through a series of tests where I learned a few things but did not resolve the heavy feel at idle or the free play. Bill agreed to warranty the gear if I would play the freight, which was about $300 dollars. The gear came back, I reinstalled it and of course it was no better. Bill claimed it was full of trash. I had already cut the filter apart drained the contents of the filter and oil reservoir on a white cloth and there was no trash. At this point I knew that Bill didn't know much more than I did and he was not going to live up to his end of the deal.
At this point I had spent a little less than $2000 and had a gear that was worse than the one I got from the scrap yard in the first place. Part of that $2000 was for a flow meter that I purchased from Sheppard. I've forgotten the exact procedure, but with the flow meter you can measure the amount oil that is going by the piston, which indicates piston or bore wear. The gear that I paid good money to have rebuilt was bypassing slightly more than the max specification. Another test it failed was the amount of torque required to move the wheels at idle on pavement. I remember this test, make sure the front tires are properly inflated and that the vehicle is on level pavement or concrete. Next you'll need a torque wrench that will read up to about 200 inch pounds. Remove the horn button and use the necessary socket allowing you to measure the minimum torque required to move the front wheels with the engine at idle speed, you'll have to move the wrench very slow in order to get the most accurate reading. The rebuilt gear measured about 110 inch pounds. 100 inch pounds is the maximum specification and I think most people would say about 80 inch pounds should be the max specification.
Being hard headed and determined (is there a difference?) I was past the point of no return. I had to find a way to repair my ill driving coach. I knew it would take awhile to figure this out. I pulled the newly rebuilt gear off and set it aside. I when back to the place with the salvage buses and picked out another Sheppard gear, one of the tightest feeling gears out of a group of gears sitting on a pallet. I installed the used gear and rechecked the torque, it was 80 inch pounds and the free play was a little better than any of gears I had installed before. But it was still too much and the coach still did not drive like my truck or the MCI 102A3 that I owned for a short period of time. My goal was to make it drive similar to the MCI. I considered buying a new Sheppard gear so I called the Sheppard gear company and questioned them about free play. There is no way to adjust, shim or reduce the freeplay in that series of Sheppard gears. According to Sheppard and the Sheppard manual there can be up to 2 inches of free-play at the steering wheel rim even with a new gear. In my opinion the design is very durable, but more suited for off road heavy equipment. The very things that make it durable, no rings or seals on the piston and no way to adjust the free-play make it undesirable for a highway application.
I have done many alignments on automobiles and I know the effects that caster, camber, toe-in and king pin inclination have on steering, but I have to admit that I did learn some things when going through the checks that Bill required me to do.
One thing I had not considered is how important "return to center" is. For example in a parking lot, drive your automobile very slowly and turn the wheel sharply to the left or right then let go of it. The steering wheel will return to the center position very rapidly. Your bus should behave in almost the same manner. If it doesn't it will never drive correctly. As alignments go the caster and kingpin inclination have the most effect on this characteristic. On a straight axle you can't do much with KPI, some positive caster can be added to help with "return to center". Another thing to check is the condition of of the king pins, if they are worn or even new and installed to tight this will affect return to center. The last cause is the one that I suspect most people never consider. How much drag or how much rotational force is required to turn the shaft that goes from the steering gear back to the steering wheel. The reason this is critical is because when you start turning your steering wheel it only takes about 6 inch pounds of force to start activating the hydraulic valving in the steering gear. That hydraulic pressure is the force that helps you turn the wheels. If your system has more than 6 inch pounds of rotational force from the gear back to the steering wheel your wheels will not return to center because the assist valving is starting to open, holding the wheels in whatever position they are in.
My bus had about 15 inch pounds from the gear back to the steering wheel. On my 4104 and most coaches with axle mount gears there is 4 universal joints, a set of bearings through the body and the 90 degree gear box. I was able to lower mine to about 6 inch pounds by cleaning the grease from the U joints, bearings and then replacing it with light weight synthetic grease. I replace the 90 degree box with the one from the transit bus. The original 4104 box had bronze bushings. The box from the transit bus had tapered roller bearings, even with that I still had to reduce the pre-load on the bearings to a point that was border line, increase the clearance between the bevel gears and use the lightest synthetic motor oil I could find. After all this I had the return to center at an acceptable level, not perfect, but it was OK.
Now I still had the excess free play. As far as I know none of the axle mount Sheppard gears have a free play adjustment. While most every Ross gear has the adjustment. The problem was the only axle mount gear Ross every produced was used on the MCI A2 and that gear is no longer made and I could not find a used one anywhere.
I went to a truck scrap yard and found two Ross gears, one with a sector shaft long enough to get below the axle and another gear with correct housing orientation that would allow me to build an adapter plate for the axle mount. I used parts from both gears to build the one I needed. I used a pillar block bearing to stabilize the bottom of the sector shaft because there was quite a bit of unsupported length between the gear and the pitman arm. After ever thing was connected and adjusted I went for test ride and I was pleased, it drove about 95% as good as the MCI 102A3.
One other thing, centering up the steering gear. Back out the internal stops or reliefs in the gear, rotate the sterring wheel full left to right counting the turns. Then bring it back to the exact center. Lock the steering wheel in that position (ignore the position of the wheel for now) and adjust the drag link to make the coach drive straight with the steering wheel in that position, then remove the steering wheel and position it to the center if necessary. That will keep the steering gear centered. Most steering gears are designed to be a little tighter in the center position. It's not uncommon for the steering wheel to be centered up for driving using the drag link adjustment. That is not the correct procedure and now you know why. I pass this information along hoping it will benefit someone.
I used the upper front axle radius rod from a 4106. It's adjustable and will work on a 4104. It will allow some caster adjustment or most truck alignment shops can place a wedge shim under the axle to change caster. Uncle Ned's bus does drive great with the Sheppard gear. So not all Sheppard gears are bad, just the ones I saw.
I know some of you have more alignment experience than me. If any of this is incorrect please correct me
Ken
Thanks Ken, I remember talking to you on the phone about a lot of this a awhile back. It is all very good information!
Do you have any photos of your ross install?
I don't, but I still talk the guy who has my old 4104 in Tucson. I'll ask if he can get a few pictures. I put a of lot work into making that thing drive decent. I'd like to have some pictures for myself.
Ken
Well im replacing the drivers side Rockwell 4106 steering knuckle with an Rockwell MC9 knuckle that has the 90 deg steering arm I need.
I will have to relocate the drivers side shock mount about an inch over from its current location to clear the steering arm.
I have an new Ross HFB70 power steering gear to mount directly under the steering column.
I am looking at using a salvage Freightliner Cascadia Tilt / Telescoping Steering Column which will give the driver a much more comfortable steering wheel angle.
I will have to heat up and custom bend a draglink once i get one of my 11r24.5 /470 tires mounted.
Darkspeed, Nice looking wheel. I put one in from a Feightliner also tilt/tele. I find very seldom do I move it, if someone else were driving?
Quote from: Tom Y on August 07, 2015, 04:53:45 AM
Darkspeed, Nice looking wheel. I put one in from a Feightliner also tilt/tele. I find very seldom do I move it, if someone else were driving?
Thanks Tom, I was looking fore something that was more vertical than horizontal.
Do you like your FL wheel?
Yes, I like it but it is a pretty plain wheel.
We converted our first bus from manual steering to integral power. When first completed, the drag link could rub against the left tire if you turned enough. The guy that installed it put a 2x4 between the contact points of the tire and the drag link, heated it up, and had me turn the wheel to bend it correctly. It worked perfectly.
Built me a little tool to press out the tapered stub so I can replace it with the MC9 steering arm.
Luke was going to send me the whole MC9 knuckle but once he got it out he said it had sat outside too long and was in bad shape, so im just getting the steering arm.
Its really in there good. I may try heating it all up and then spraying the stub with canned air to shrink it.
I converted my air assisted manual steering to Sheppard integral. The manual steering used a 1.5 to 1 miter box that I changed to 1 to 1. The steering went from 8 turns to 4.5 turns lock to lock. Granted the manual assisted steering turned a bit sharper, but it is still easier to turn the power. I had to up the pressure in the steering pump to 2,200psi. Now have finger tip steering even standing still.
I had to learn to drive with a quiet steering wheel-meaning don't be constantly correcting. Granted the Sheppard steering is still numb to drive and you have to be vigilant about steering compared to my Kenworth truck with it's TRW steering box that feels like driving a car. I drive the bus and truck totally differently. The bus you pull out and swing around the corner. The truck you start turning almost immediately or else you don't make the turn. Good Luck, TomC
Thanks Tom, Interesting comment between the Sheppard and Ross/TRW. Everything I have read and everyone I talk to says the older Sheppard axel mounted models have a very high allowable play even from the factory. This is why I chose to adapt a Ross/TRW frame mounted gear, as well as greatly reducing the number of components in the steering system and getting rid of the mitre box. It will be interesting to see if it is worth the effort.
It is interesting to note that Freightliner tried axle mounted power rack and pinion steering. While it was great to drive, the design wasn't good in that the toe adjusters would back off causing severe tire wear. Rather than correct that problem, Freightliner just went back to the normal frame mounted steering gear again. I think if you can adapt yours to that system, it would work well. The only draw back is the 4106 does not have a frame. How are you going to mount it, and keep in mind that the twisting force on that steering gear is tremendous. Good Luck, TomC
Hi Tom, My 4106 now has a frame > http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=24673.msg325547#msg325547 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=24673.msg325547#msg325547)
I lowered the floor 8" and it now has a structural steel tube frame that starts at the back window and goes all the way out the front of the bus where it attaches to a very stout brush guard bar that will provide additional protection in the event of a front end collision. I am mounting the Ross/TRW HFB 70 on a 3/4" thick plate that is mounted to the side of this frame so it will have almost no flex when in use. The HFB 70 will go directly under the steering wheel and a drag link will connect back to the transplanted MC9 steering arm just like the Freightliner setup.
I don't know if a frame is that important or not I have been studying the mounting on a Eagle and the D-MCI while the mounting plate is 3/8 the tubing is only 1" square 1/8th in thick that the plate welds too only with a few gussets mostly for up and down movement.
I was sorta stunned as I thought the movement would have been more critical from front to rear horizontal movement.It's scary to look at the front axle how it held in place if you jack one up you can remove the axle in 30 min or less
progress..
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