Hi all,
I'm running into a bit of a problem starting the old gal this afternoon.
Let me provide a bit of background.
We've been having a problem, for a little while, with the starter.
We'd engage the ignition and nothing would happen. I could see a slight voltage drop on the voltmeter on the dash, but no attempt to start.
In the past we just got lucky and it eventually would start.
While at a mechanic, some number of months ago, it did the same thing. He looked at it for a bit, then took a small hammer and tapped on the starter a few times while I tried to turn it over. Viola, it lit right up!
So no huge mystery there, I need a new starter.
Since they're a PITA to replace in this model and this particular mechanic was not prepared to do the work at that time, we just left it as is and were going to deal with it when we took it to another mechanic to have the oil changed, chassis lubed, etc.
We've been dealing with it, occasionally, not starting in the same way -by tapping on the starter. And it's worked like a charm each time. A couple of taps, while someone up front operated the ignition switch and bingo, good to go.
Well anyway this morning I was operating solo, and sure enough it did it to me. I didn't have my handy helper to do the starter trick, so I decided to use the rear start and do it myself. There is no way I can reach both the start switch and tap the starter, but at least the rear start would save me having to walk all the way up front each time.
In any case, after a couple of taps, I was able to start it using the rear start, and drove for a few hours with no issue.
Then I stopped for lunch and shut the engine down.
When I went to start it, same thing happened again. So I figured I'd do the tap/rear start thing again. This time, nada. No amount of tapping was accomplishing a thing!
After doing that for quite a while and looking quite helpless, I asked some guy in the parking lot if he could help. So I had him operate the rear switch, while I did the tapping. Once again nada!
So I set it for front start and he was fortunately nice enough to do the tapping while I tried to start it. Once again, nada. This has always worked before, so now I'm starting to get really concerned. Well we tried it about a half dozen other times and still nothing. Not wanting to take any more of his time, I thanked him and he was on his way, and here I sit.
When I engage either the rear or front start, I can hear a relay click in the electrical box by the engine start switches (as always) but I hear nothing at all by the starter (as always). I can also see a slight voltage drop on the meter (as always) that goes away when I let go of the key.
I have very limited accessibility to the starter and can only see the "front"'of it (solenoid end) from the passenger side.
Everything else, including wiring is buried in the back and out of reach.
I read through the book but it was of no real help and only listed what I'd already been doing.
So, does anyone have any advice on what to do here?
Your help is greatly appreciated, as always.
Thanks
George
My 4106 was doing that and it turned out to be a bad corroded ground connection between the engine and the frame as well as a corroded connector on the battery positive.. It would have enough current to engage the starter relay but not enough to spin the starter every time. I would have to connect ( jump ) my sisters minivan to the bus - positive to battery , negative to engine to get it to fire up. I did once see a guy start a stuck starter by first pouring boiling water on it to get it to unstick.
When a starter gets to the point of needing to be tapped to work, it desperately need replacing. When you get it to work that way even one time, you've gotten lucky. Every time after that that tapping works, you are just gambling with ever decreasing odds of success. You may give it some time and try again. Maybe you will hit the jackpot. If so, drive it to where you can change the starter.
Can you hear the solenoid going clunk when you hit the starter? It is a big clunking sound not the clicking sound from the magnetic switch on the bulk head. There is a trap door under the bed to access the starter. If you slide the bed towards the door you can get to the access panel. The solenoid is on top of the starter. Kind of a mute point, if you need a starter solenoid, that would be the time to just change the starter.
It would be a good idea to check to make sure the solenoid is getting a good strong connection before spending money on a starter.
I think it might take us too long to get there to be of any help.
Can somebody out there give him some help?
Don and Cary
I believe his luck has run out ???
Ok, I'm going again.
A few minutes after posting this (I've been siting here for hours) a good Samaritan stopped by and asked if I needed help. Turns out he works on detroits and other similar diesel pushers. He was incredible and gave me several things to try, and tried several others with me.
Before he left, he had one last suggestion:
Maybe the bendix is stuck out to the flywheel.
He suggested that maybe if I could move the bus even slightly, it would disengage.
Using my handy external compressor I pressurized the system and was able to release the brakes.
Julie was with me at this point, and we managed to nudge it a few inches.
Then we did the tap trick and bingo, she lit right up!
Whew!!!!! Anyway, it's running now and we're gonna assess our options. It's Friday night and I'm unlikely to get anyone to work on it now. So we're gonna risk it (stupid I know) and just get to an rv park and settle in for a few days to see what options we have.
Thanks all for the help and advice. We know we need to get the starter replaced, but I need to find a mechanic that knows what they're doing with these engines, and those are a rare find indeed, especially around here.
Anyway, I'm signing off for now, but I'll check in later and see if any others posts are there, for the next time this will inevitably happen!!!!
The Diesel Gods are with you. You must have done something VERY good in your past.
Don and Cary
around where ?
did the good samaritan/bus mechanic leave a phone number...or offer a referral ?
http://www.truckdown.com/ (http://www.truckdown.com/)
there are 4 mobile truck repairs within 40 miles of clinton.mo.
truck down has an app for smart phones.
gilbert mobile service 1.49 mi. 417-224-2556
http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/business-reviews/trucking-transportation-brokers/eads-transportation-service-inc-in-harrisonville-mo-99154007/ (http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/business-reviews/trucking-transportation-brokers/eads-transportation-service-inc-in-harrisonville-mo-99154007/)
http://www.jimstireservice.com/about-us/emergency-road-service.aspx (http://www.jimstireservice.com/about-us/emergency-road-service.aspx)
It doesn't take a "special" DD 2 stroke mechanic to change a starter. Any half decent tech will be able to fix you up.
JC
George also if you can't find a new one find a starter re-builder for a lot less. Napa can generally get you one 48 hours unless they have one. There is also a copper disk inside the rear of the solenoid on top that wears out. I know some have taken that out and flipped it over and wa la works again. Just some thoughts.
Dave
Did that on skidder and crane, it works, flipping the solenoid disk
Quote from: lostagain on June 26, 2015, 06:33:55 PM
It doesn't take a "special" DD 2 stroke mechanic to change a starter. Any half decent tech will be able to fix you up.
JC
Nope just skinny and strong for a GM I wonder where the turbo is mounted on his 6v92 if you can even see the 3 starter bolts
OK, we're settled into a park and we'll stay here a couple of weeks.
Thanks JC and eagle for the info. It's good to know that replacing a starter is fairly straight forward. When my head clears a bit, I'll go through the below shops and see what they can do.
Cary and Don, I don't know what I did to deserve this guy's help, but whatever it was, it must've been in a former life, lol. Lord knows it wasn't in this one :D
This guy was incredible. Unsolicited he came over and started to help me. And you know what a Detroit is like, look at it sideways and you're covered in oil. And so was this guy. I kept apologizing and offering to have him wash his hands at least, he said "Nah, this is how I usually look anyway, ask my wife!", lol.
I wish there was some way I could repay his kindness. I never even got the dude's name!
Anyway, so here are a couple of observations I'd like to get your thoughts on,
When I rear started it (first time I've done that) and then got back inside I noticed a couple of odd things
1) the tach did not work. Now we've had tach problems before, so I kinda blew it off and figured it was a loose wire or something.
2) there were two very faint lights lit up in the dash (near where the low oil light would be) that were suddenly on. I've never seen that before. The lights were very faint and almost imperceptible.
3) this was the one that really had me worried, the voltage output on the meter with the engine running has always be about 13.7. This time, however, it was showing 12.5!
I ignored them and continued going forward since nothing appeared to be affected and the engine was running smooth as ever.
Well, after we eventually got it started again (using front start this time), all of the above was gone. The tach worked like a charm, the lights were off as they should be, and the voltage was back to 13.7ish.
Does any of that make sense? What would rear starting it do to cause that? Obviously there's some sort of electrical short or something, but I can't see what it could be.
Any thoughts on that are appreciated.
Now the next question,
So the fix my good Samaritan suggested, how did that actually work? I assumed that when the trans is in neutral none of the drive elements are engaged, so how could rolling it have rotated the flywheel to release the bendix? I have little doubt that that is what fixed it. Because I was hammering on that sucker for damn near 3 hours trying to get it to start.
Rolling it a mere 6 inches forward, I was able to forward-start it, as we have been, and it lit right up, with hardly a couple of taps. So I'm confused there as well and any thoughts there are also appreciated.
OK, I'm done, it's beer:30, and I need a couple, lol!
I'll start calling some shops around and see who can replace that starter and what their availability is.
Thanks again to those who offered guidance, help and advice. I sincerely appreciate it!
Ha Dave, Lee, and luvrbus,
Your posts came in before I finished posting my.
I'll check on a rebuilder and see. I've read some horror stories of shade-tree rebuilders, so I probably will stick with the Napa option if it's available.
Luvrbus, I'm not certain where the bolts are exactly, but we replaced the water tank under the bed, and I got curious and removed the stuff covering the access plate. I could see the starter beneath. I'm not certain, however, if the bolts are accessible. I can do that again later this week and see.
Hey Geom
Where are you bedded down? I live south of Springfield on the way to Branson. May be able to give you some pointers/help if you are close.
Rob
91 Prevost XL40
Hey Rob,
That's very generous of you!
I would love any help or advice, but please don't disrupt your travel plans. :D
We stopped in Sparrowfoot Park (it's a corps park just south of Clinton on Truman lake).
It's actually a really pretty park, much prettier than the one we *had* intended to go to today :D
You didn't say what direction you were heading. But if you are heading east Larry Roemer
Heavy Equipment And Truck 554 highway 42 Osage beach Mo 65065 573348 3733. I live in the area there is Lake of the Ozarks State Park 3 miles away from his shop . He services my bus and other buses in the area. He is about 80 miles east of where you are at. There is also a KAO about 1 mile away from his business. There are several things to do in the area.
George might be when you put it in back start it cuts out power from the front or a bad ground on the front circuit somewhere. Might be a fuse in there also that is bad or just a connection that needs cleaning. Sound like the tack is hooked up through the front start/ run circuit so when you put it in rear start it cuts it out. Just some thoughts.
Dave
Boy, we can't give any ideas on this one. We don't remember ever using the rear start. The main 12 volt cable goes from the batteries to the starter and then on to the generator. At least it all went back to normal. You may want to have the starter checked. It has been a long time and our memories aren't what they used to be, but it seems like that starter was replaced before it shipped to us.
We were wondering if you survived the winter. Glad to hear you have made it on the road.
Don and Cary
Jeff, thanks for the contact in Osage beach. That's a short enough of a hop over, that we can do that on our way to/from KC. Plus having campsites close to his shop is a huge bonus. Not sure how long it takes *to* swap a starter, but I also would want him to look at a couple of other things for me as well. That's great having a mechanic knowledgable about these babies so close!
Dave, thanks for the tips on the electrical. Yeah, I was starting to think the same thing about the tach, that it must be wired in hot on the forward start side. Which makes sense right, it would need to be on when the engine is on, probably something counting off of the flywheel. The other stuff really has me scratching my head ???, lol. If I get a whole bunch of time I might trace it out and see where things start to go awry. There are a lot of wires back there, lol, gonna take some time :D
Cary and Don. It's good to know how the main 12 volt cable is chained. That'll help in future diagnostics for sure. I'm confused when you say "it goes on to the generator" though. In what way does it do that? To the gen battery?
We did survive the winter, quite well actually. Took A LOT of adjustment and creative engineering, but I think we managed to make a cozy little space in here, in the dead of Midwestern winter :D and very few instances of things freezing. I think we're ready for another winter if need be, but next winter we're hoping to escape to warmer lands :)
We would like to spend a month or two in CO during the winter. That will truly be a test of how winter ready we are.
I've been meaning to send you guys an update email (actually meant to send you one on Apr 1 ;), but as I started to write it, I kept wanting to add more stuff then lost track of it :D
Will definitely finish that up here soon. It'd be good to catch up with you guys as well. I hope things are going good!
The hot cable runs from the batteries to the starter and then to the Bus's D50 generator, not the onan. Your tach is electric. In your wiring diagrams there is information on how it is wired. It runs off the bus's generator's "R" terminal.
We did six weeks last fall. Too much has been going on lately, but we are hoping to get away again the end of August. Get fixed, and we could meet you someplace warm this winter. ;)
Don and Cary
George -
Before you call in the big guns, and if you've got a few tools besides the BFH, try taking the solenoid off the starter (DISCONNECT THE BATTERIES!!) and checking that disc, as mentioned above. If, by flipping it over, it might just buy you some time. Then you can source and procure a rebuilt assembly w/o being under the gun.
Don't forget that the replacement needs to be a Left Hand starter!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Solenoid is $50, my contacts are cooked. Tried to post pic here yesterday but dunno how. Rebuilt starter is $250-$300. Easy access on mine; not so much on yours. Seen some discussion somewhere on a board recently about replacing the old, heavy 42MT with the new lighter-weight Japanese (Nippon Denso) gear-reduction starter. Jury is still out on that, I think. As mine is easy to get to, I'll just replace the solenoid. I've done the flip-the-disk trick before somewhere, sometime in the past on something. This ones too far gone, and I'm at home. Yours, however, being where it is, might merit a total starter change while you're at it.
Remember, wear no jewelry when working on high-current stuff.
Good luck.
No body makes a gear reduction stater for the lefty engine the heavy a** 42 is the best you can do for the lefty engines.You can just flip the washer on the old style solenoids that being the one that bolts down on the housing with 4 bolts the newer styles are different fwiw
How to rebuild a 42MT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3zX-V_Xjqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3zX-V_Xjqo)
Wow, great info! Thanks everyone.
While I like the thought of flipping that disc around from a cost saving perspective,
considering the PITA it will be removing that bad boy, I think I may only want to do it once :D
So I'll see how much a rebuilt starter will set me back, but at 2-3 bills that's not too ridiculous and I believe most of the additional money will likely be in labor?
I'm not sure if I have what is needed to pull that starter out of its little cave myself, but I can lift the bed and look under to see how bad it'll be.
Is it just removing those 3 bolts and then pulling it out and then reversing the process?
Doesn't "sound" terribly difficult, although it does sound pretty heavy, lol.
I'm still curious why rolling the bus seems to have helped with getting it started.
I figured with the trans in neutral nothing would be engaged that would've allowed the flywheel to rotate. Does that sound right or am I missing something?
Rolling the bus with a V730 Allison would have no affect on turning the engine or the starter even in gear it just was time for the starter to work.You can change the starter it is heavy almost 60 lbs.
Buy the right starter with the V730 they are sealed from the transmission oil and require a gasket fwiw