Other than during a wiring problem we had in the fall of 2013, Sophia has never failed to start instantly and run perfectly. About a month ago, she idled rough and smoked (white). After a few minutes, she smoothed out and ran well the rest of the day. No more starting problems. Until she sat overnight again. Then it was the same story.
Now it's been two weeks since she was started, and she won't start. Turns over fine. I unscrewed the fuel filter and it's full. Any ideas.
FWIW, I did not have this problem until after I changed the muffler. I can't see how the two issues would be related, but I'm always willing to be educated.
TIA
Jim
Dirty fuel filters? Muffler different size less or more back pressure? check oil for water?And or fuel? Fuel pump pumping as in no fuel getting to engine? Dirty air cleaners? Sorry thats all I got Jim.
Dave
Low coolant level?
JC
sounds like something in the shutdown system to me too. ???
I'll see what I can find for you if that is a electronic series 40 it will be a Cat system not a DDEC
Thanks, Clifford. You're right about it not being DDEC.
Working on it now. Definitely have fuel pressure to injectors. Something electrical is keeping the injectors from opening, and from the way the problem developed gradually, it's probably not a fuse or a relay. I have factory manuals. Can't find a tripped fuse or blown relay, but that does not mean I've not missed one. I have the interlock switch off, so a bad sensor should not be keeping it from starting.
We've started it several times on fluid, but it never picked up fuel.
Still looking.
Jim
We've pulled some codes, but I've not yet found them listed in the manual. Anyone know of a site showing S-40 codes?
Been able to pull codes. Main one seems to be 124.
124 is Injector Control Pressure Sensor reading low. May be faulty sensor or wiring, but might also be low fuel pressure. Several sites talk about the check valve just ahead of the fuel filter giving trouble. Could that cause low fuel pressure during cranking? I guess injector pump could also be bad.
Check around your bus may have a supply pump before the injection pump,you can bypass the IPR fwiw you don't want to buy a injection pump,that is only at last resort
I have a pretty large list on manuals.. whens the ECM on that unit?
The Series 40 is a rebadged DT 466.
There are multiple versions of that platform, What year? Any pics?
I believe his bus is a 1999.
AZ Diesel Man, Kevin you are corn shuck-er expert tell us his problem all I ever do is replace # 5 piston on the EGR models 466's
Bus is a '99 Gillig H2000LF. I have factory Service, Schematics and Parts manuals. They're all light on engine information.
Internet research suggests that the check ball located above the fuel strainer is prone to give trouble that can result in low fuel pressure. Rush International Truck Center has a location in Candler, about 50 miles from me. They're getting the ball and o-ring shipped in from Charlotte and should have it in two days. It's $15 plus the trip, and I have several other things I need to do in that area. I'll change those two little items since they have a bad reputation. International parts man referred to the fuel strainer (screen before filter) as a "rock crusher." Colorful.
I have a diesel mechanic friend who's bringing a service truck here after work today or tomorrow. At his suggestion, we're gonna pressurize the fuel tank with his compressor and see if the engine starts. If it does, we'll know that the injector control pressure sensor is good. If it does not start, we'll try bypassing the sensor.
I found it interesting that neither the VIN nor the engine number showed up in International's system. I know from past experience that the Detroit Diesel places won't even talk to me about a S-40. Gillig tells me that they don't have engine info since the engine could have been changed. It hasn't.
I guess this engine is an actual bastard. I don't blame the engine, however. It's the parents fault.
Jim
A lot of those LF's had the Cummins ISB motors..
Nice to see an unmodified one :)
That is a tough little engine regardless of it's parents, now after 2002 with the EGR I wouldn't give 25 bucks for one
We have the Eldorado version of it.. looks the same but different chasis.. luckily its 01 so pre EGR..
Powerfull girl, will actually nudge you back under accerlatation..
I love my S-40. Easy to start. Plenty of power for us. Runs like a champ. Until now.
I did not know about the EGR issue before I got this bus. Glad we dodged that bullet.
Low ICP is not a fuel pressure issue. The sensor should be facing you on the drivers side along the bottom of the head in the HPO rail. Unplug it and see if it starts.
The check ball you are getting is in the rock catcher, The old one will be black, New will be yellow. Change is for ULSD.
Do you have any type of scan tool available?
Do the injectors "buzz" when you turn the key on? You might have to disable the hydra-boost pump, if equipped.
Quote from: azdieselman on June 09, 2015, 03:45:06 PM
Low ICP is not a fuel pressure issue. The sensor should be facing you on the drivers side along the bottom of the head in the HPO rail. Unplug it and see if it starts.
The check ball you are getting is in the rock catcher, The old one will be black, New will be yellow. Change is for ULSD.
Do you have any type of scan tool available?
Do the injectors "buzz" when you turn the key on? You might have to disable the hydra-boost pump, if equipped.
Engine did not start with sensor unplugged. Will changing check ball help anything? What is ULSD? No scan tool. Haven't noticed any buzz, but we will check for that. My diesel mechanic friend could not make it this evening. We're shooting for tomorrow late. What do you think is the problem?
Thanks for your post.
Jim
Quote from: Lostranger on June 09, 2015, 06:01:46 PM
Engine did not start with sensor unplugged. Will changing check ball help anything? What is ULSD? No scan tool. Haven't noticed any buzz, but we will check for that. My diesel mechanic friend could not make it this evening. We're shooting for tomorrow late. What do you think is the problem?
Thanks for your post.
Jim
Ultra Low Sulpher Diesel
Jim,Kevin is a sharp guy on the IH engines he just doesn't post here often
I should have already asked this, Is the oil level correct?
Does the oil pressure gauge on the dash rise while cranking?
Quote from: azdieselman on June 09, 2015, 10:20:13 PM
I should have already asked this, Is the oil level correct?
Does the oil pressure gauge on the dash rise while cranking?
Oil level was below add mark when I first tried to crank it yesterday morning. My alternator leaks. I checked and topped it after it failed to start. Took about 5 quarts to reach full line. Topped coolant level at same time. I have a cold water leak.
Don't know about pressure gauge. I'll check that after it gets to be daylight.
Thanks again.
Jim
What were the other codes you retrieved? I want to establish whether you have a fuel or ICP issue, or possibly a sensor issue.
A scan tool would be quite useful, But I think we can narrow it down with some basic checks.
Is this a rear engine T drive? Is there a rear start panel?
Quote from: azdieselman on June 10, 2015, 09:05:55 AM
What were the other codes you retrieved? I want to establish whether you have a fuel or ICP issue, or possibly a sensor issue.
A scan tool would be quite useful, But I think we can narrow it down with some basic checks.
Is this a rear engine T drive? Is there a rear start panel?
Rear engine, Tee drive, rear start panel does not work. I don't have the code list with me. Following the funeral I'm conducting today, I'll go home and get them. Will be late afternoon Eastern. Thanks again for your help. I can tell you know what you're doing, and I don't take that lightly.
Jim
If this is just an International DT466 (someone posted this, also that it has a CAT ecm)
Would the Cat ET software work?
I'm not sure how fininky the ECM's are, for example the DDEC IV will look out the engine after a low oil state..
Sometime the rear starts will give different results over the front starts (no clue why but seen it happen)
If I had the model of the ECM I could find out for sure..
His engine will be the HEUI injection system
The oil pressure gauge appears to move a tiny bit during cranking, but most of my gauges are screwy most of the time. I can't be certain about oil gauge movement. The oil gauge always reads lower than I think it should. When the dash lights are on, the oil, and fuel gauges read even lower than they normally do. The water temp gauge reads higher than normal with dash lights on.
This bus is multiplex.
Just counted codes again with help, and these what I THINK I have. One or two could be off. It's a confusing process with such a long list.
124, 125, 124, 325, 113, 122, 211, 215, 323, 322, 321, 333, 225, 236, 626
It's the last two that confuse me. I cannot be certain of the sixes. They threw me while I was counting.
If necessary, we'll read them again. Let me know. Thanks again for any help.
Jim
Jim,
**I may not be right, I can only compare to units I know**
The Multiplex network system is not linked to the ECM that much. It simply provides communication for other systems (Door open, wheel chair lifts, lights, other electrical).
Really need to know the ECM Make / model, will say on the ECM itself usually mounted on the block). If there's no sticker, snap a picture of the ECM.
Does the series 40 have a oil reservoir and pump to supply the injectors or does it pickup only from the crank case the HEUI system has to have oil pressure for the injectors to work
Quote from: moosemanusa on June 10, 2015, 04:49:10 PM
If there's no sticker, snap a picture of the ECM.
Will do at first light.
I recognize some of those code numbers. 333 is ICP not at expected. I'll have to look up the others in the morning.
I've not had to the pleasure of actually working on a DD badged version. My understanding was it's the same as a DT466E. I am more than familiar with that platform.
The HP reservoir is built into the gear housing. Pull the oil temp sensor and see if oil runs out. I was working towards this. You have to have LP oil to get HP oil. I would expect to see 45-60 psi cranking on the dash gauge.
You can crank the engine with the EOT sensor out and see if you get oil flow from the gear housing. Should be a fair amount.
Another thing to check is power to the IPR. You'll have B+ on one wire of the connector. The PCM provides a PWM ground on the other wire. The valve is normally open, If you lose power it will dump all HP oil to the pan. You can hotwire it directly for a few moments to see if it will start. It's not polarity sensitive, But it's a tight fit for alligator clips.
Here are numbers from the ECM plate:
1807457C1
5WK9
203/00
Nov 6/98
1807457C1-0217235
Sometime today I'll be able to get back to bus work. Not sure when. The chaos factor in our lives is unusually high at the moment.
Jim
I looked up those codes, You've pretty much got a code for every sensor.
I'd be looking closely at the battery connections. If this is equipped with Navistar's famous "cleanpower" harness, you will need to clean and polish the cable ends, check the fuse holders for burned connections and loose pin fit. These harnesses are troublesome, They have been revised several times, I cut and splice all the connectors on the trucks that I see, The intermittant stuff will make you crazy. There may also be a connector under or near the starter, This can also cause ECM power issues.
^^ same as this guy ::) "
Speaking from DDEC IV problems.. low battery voltage caused all type of problems and reporting sensors were down..
Didnt help the ECM had problems either..
Check the Battery state.. if ok, remove the ECM and take it to a specialist and ask them to give a diagnostic report on it. Then if you have time on your side, use an internet ECM rebuild place (much cheaper usually).
Same day ECM repair for our ECM was 950.. but a week's service was half that cost..
When my DDEC IV ECM went out last year, I got several codes, all seemingly unrelated.
Quote from: azdieselman on June 11, 2015, 09:22:01 AM
I looked up those codes, You've pretty much got a code for every sensor.
I'd be looking closely at the battery connections. If this is equipped with Navistar's famous "cleanpower" harness, you will need to clean and polish the cable ends, check the fuse holders for burned connections and loose pin fit. These harnesses are troublesome, They have been revised several times, I cut and splice all the connectors on the trucks that I see, The intermittant stuff will make you crazy. There may also be a connector under or near the starter, This can also cause ECM power issues.
Navistar had nothing to do with building the Gillig, but that doesn't mean that I don't have voltage issues. We'll try cleaning and tightening battery cables along the way. Batteries are most of 40 feet from the engine. We'll also check fuse holders and other connectors. I'll especially check the feed to the ECM.
Should I pull the ECM and have it checked? My check ball and washer are in at Rush International Truck. They could probably run that diagnostic. I'll ask them today.
Jim
I would if I were you.. after wasting a 2400 mile round trip and other expenses my problem was down to a low voltage issue with the ECM!
Every code you could think off was flashing up...
If I had just done that on Day 1... (Hindsight is great eh)
I think I'd check the voltage at the ECM first. If it's really low, you may have found your problem.
The ECM is the last place I would go. Knowing what I do about these engines and the powers and grounds, I'd check and clean every one first. Navistar may well have supplied the engine power feed through DD to Gillig.
The ECM's are pretty durable, Failures happen, But I wouldn't say it's common. IDM's, Slightly more. Usually have injector issues also.
The school buses here when the batteries get below 10.5 the IDM relay locks the power out could be the batteries were low and cooked the relay ? I have never seen a bad ECM here on the RV's or school buses with the 466 engine,my 7.3 would eat relays
Just got back from Rush Truck Center. Got the new check ball and gasket. Ball is yellow.
Rush service manager says they cannot check the ECM unless it's on the vehicle. They're 50 miles away, so that ain't happening. Our plan for today is to start at the ECM power connector and work back (forward, actually) to the battery compartment, cleaning and tightening. I realize that I've had similar power supply issues to both the starter and the large electrical panel at the R/R wheel well. A dirty, loose or corroded power connection or ground could easily explain the way this problem developed.
Do I have a way of clearing codes without a scan tool? Can anyone recommend a scan tool option that does not require selling one of the grandchildren? I have an ethernet port and some sort of older computer-style port. No OBD that I've seen.
Jim
Jim,
--Again speaking from DDEC Experience only----
If the voltage drops below 9.5 the ECM will not power up..
They absolutely require a good ground!
Now you've just mentioned about past electrical problems, I would agree this is were you want to start..
An ECM shop can bench tech as they're usually just a few guys in a small shop that people send in the ECM's..
Let me try and see what that ECM is from your past posts..
There has to be someone making a data link cable that goes from 6 or 9 pins to the Atria plug so you could read that engine with a OBD II.Fords with the 7.3 are read with a OBD it's the same system
Any update on the starting Jim,if you can borrow a Pro/Link I can send you the cartage for the engine I just cannot turn my Pro/link loose right now
Thanks for the kind offer, Clifford. Hopefully I can muddle through now that I know how to flash read the codes. Sorry it took me so long to respond, but life of late is extra chaotic.
Several have speculated that I may have a power supply issue to the ECM. Today I managed to get the connectors off the module and test for power. I grounded my multi tester to the block and read every pin. Some were hot, and those that were read within a couple hundredths of 11.5v. LuckyChow is of the opinion that this would be plenty of voltage to make the ECM work. I do not yet know which pins I was reading.
The faulty part of my check, obviously, is that I was not testing the ground wire(s) in the harness. I tried a jumper ground from the ECM case to the block, but that did not make it start. Maybe the electronics are isolated from the ECM case.
I had no luck finding where the ground wire terminates. The schematic is only that. I tried chasing the bundle but was not successful finding that number 150 wire. I suspect that it may ground to a negative battery buss beside the driver's seat and over the battery compartment. Tomorrow I plan to take all those connections loose and clean them. The same cavity beside the driver's seat is where the positive buss bars are located as well as the fuses on the battery cables. All the fuses I see test good.
The engine turns over fine, so the problem is probably not low batteries or faulty connections on the primary battery cables. Someone earlier mentioned that I'm getting codes from most engine sensors, and that could be an indication of either ECM trouble or low ECM power. A bad ground could cause that.
If anyone has a good idea of where that ground might terminate, I'd love to know it.
Thanks again for all the help.
Jim
Time for an update even if I don't have much to report.
Still not running, but I think I've turned the corner. This morning I pulled the ECM and drove it to Rush Truck Center in Hickory. They're the closest certified International service center. The service manager read the codes and is guessing that I have a problem with the high pressure oil system that opens the injectors. Can't know for sure without seeing the bus.
I'm waiting now to hear from Coach Net. If they will pay for the tow, I'm sending the bus to Hickory. If they will not, I'm having Rush send mobile service at $115/hour. I'm down to the wire on getting this thing running.
Either way, I should know something by late tomorrow. I will let you know. Thanks again to all who have offered help.
Jim
Did you ever remove the EOT sensor and see if there was oil in the HP reservoir?
Did you check for power at the IPR with the key on?
Jim Ride down hy18 toward Shelby to Davids coach. Have a good talk to him and he might just drop by and help you.
Also if you are out riding around check with Gene Russell at Russells Diesel. He is in mills river. will have to look up his address.
I just know how to get there. Both are great bus people.
next place is Goodsons bus in Maiden. on hy 321 business.
Also I will try to get in touch with Ken Arnold a ecm grue .
try to stay with bus people. truck people charge big rates to work on a bus.
uncle ned
Ps been out riding in HUGGY gone 2 weeks to Ky WV Tenn and virginia. and back down the Blue Ridge. Think I was in High gear at least 3 times.
I hope it is a simple fix for you Jim but like Kevin if I don't see oil pressure on the gauge they usually won't start
SUCCESS!
As is so often the case, the problem was simple. Finding it, not so much. My fuel pressure regulator was stuck open.
I had literally run out of time to work on the bus, and that's why I had it towed to Rush Truck Center in Hickory. CoachNet paid the tow since that is the closest certified International service center. I cannot speak more highly of the Rush organization. The Hickory service manager, David, is a prince.
David spent several hours doing diagnostic work, and he DID NOT CHARGE ME for his time. I did pay for three hours labor by one of the mechanics and for a few incidental supplies. My bill was $352.33. I was thrilled.
They did not actually find whatever foreign matter was lodged in the regulator, but it could have been part of the disintegrated check ball from the top of the rock catcher. When we replaced that earlier this week, we found that the original ball had lost a sizable chunk. I'm glad that someone put me onto replacing that ball and o-ring.
I changed the fuel filter when we serviced the bus in October, and we had it off a few times in the process of trying to get it to start. I wouldn't be surprised if a "chunk-o-gunk" got past the filter during one of those removals. David took the time to show me how to remove and service the regulator should the need arise again.
Of course I want to learn what I can from this experience. If I had taken the time to get a fuel pressure gauge in place early in the process, it might not have taken so long. I'm open to suggestion, here. Would it be a good idea to mount such a gauge permanently in the engine compartment? Can anyone share a link for a gauge you like?
Yes, I feel more than a little stupid about missing a low fuel pressure situation, but I will be better prepared next time. Thanks again to all who have helped. Keep up the good work.
Jim
Glad it was a easy fix,Kevin is a go to guy here for the 466 but it is hard to diagnose a problem on a computer screen if he had been hands on he would have found the problem in short order.I never knew about the 2 different colors of balls till he posted it you learn something everyday
Jim,
I'm so glad you got this figured out and are back in the saddle. I think you came out great on the expense side too. I had a hiccup like this last year when my ECM went out. All's well that ends well.
Quote from: LuckyChow on June 27, 2015, 05:06:38 AMJim,
I'm so glad you got this figured out and are back in the saddle. I think you came out great on the expense side too.
Yep, same good wishes from me.