Hi all, I've been working on a major electrical upgrade for the last month and a half and today was the day to test everything. It's a 24 volt system. The batteries are brand new and they were manufactured in April of this year. All of the tests went fine until I applied the AC power to the inverter and it's at that point that the batteries started smelling like sulfur so I turned off the breakers. My multimeter has a battery test mode so I tested all batteries (6 volt) and they check out just fine. Testing all batteries together gives me 25.5 volts. With the AC on and applied to the inverter, the batteries were being charged at 29.8 volts. Is 29.8 way too hight? I'd appreciate any suggestions. Thanks in advance
HI;
I think the answer is YES. Went thru that about a year ago with
my solar controller. Was going thru batteries about every 4 yrs
or so. Found too many volts being charged.
Also compare with coach batteries with engine running.
Good luck, Merle.
Most are 29.6V for lead acid flooded batteries for the bulk charge, the float charge should be around 26.4V you don't have the float charge set to high do you ?
Do you have the remote (wired) control panel for your inverter? If not, you need to get one. Gives you much greater control of all inverter functions, and its display gives constant system voltage. Do you have the inverter set to charge the type of batteries you're using. Since you're getting serious off gassing, I'm guessing that your batteries are flooded lead acid. The inverter may be set to charge some other type.
Is the inverter new? If so, contact your dealer. The folks we dealt with were happy to help with our early questions.
I use four 8D AGMs wired series/parallel for 24 volts. On occasion, my voltage reads 29 for a while on the control panel. I suspect that the inverter is doing an equalize charge at that point. That may be what's happening with yours.
Let us know what you learn.
Jim
What Jim said. Get the Magnum ME Battery Monitor Kit. Think it's a direct plug in with a 2 amp fuse protection. You can set it for the different batteries and it does make a difference. Think they are $180 bucks. Well worth it.
You're setting is too high, unless you have a battery temperature sensor attached.
Set the bulk at 28.8. Float at 27.2.
29.8 will boil your batteries, as you have already smelled.
I do have the battery temp sensor, battery monitor, as well as the remote but haven't hooked up the remote yet. Everything is new. Within about 10 seconds of turning on the AC to the inverter, I can smell it. That's really quick, don't you think? Without the remote, default settings should be set to this..
Flooded-Liquid Lead Acid
12V = Absorb 14.6 VDC, Float 13.4 VDC:
24V = Absorb 29.2 VDC, Float 26.8 VDC
What type batteries are they ?
IIRC, AGM batteries do not need nor should they be equalized...
Here is an excerpt from the internet...
"Equalizing AGM and other sealed batteries
"Equalizing AGM and other sealed batteries is a bit more tricky. The bubbling electrolyte results in some loss; electrolyte vapor exits the vent caps. However because there is no way to replace the lost electrolyte it is obvious that a different strategy is required. I couldn't find any manufacturer that recommended equalizing Gel batteries.These batteries are highly sensitive to over-charge and equalizing is not going to work for them. However although I did find a manufacturer that definitely did not recommend equalizing their AGM batteries (Trojan) I did find at least one manufacturer (Lifeline) that did recommend equalizing their AGM batteries.
Lifeline use the term "Conditioning". They say this should only be done when the battery is showing loss of performance due to having spent extended time in a partial or low state of charge, or that don't often get charged above 90% (Cruisers that never come to the dock please take note!)
Lifeline AGM instructions:
To apply a conditioning charge, first go through the normal charge cycle to bring the battery to full charge. The conditioning charge should then be applied by charging for 8 hours. At 77°F (25°C), the conditioning voltage should be set at 2.58 VPC (15.5 volts for a 12 volt battery). The conditioning voltage at other temperatures is shown in Table 5-2. By using the temperature compensated conditioning voltage, batteries that are not in controlled temperature environments may be conditioned without bringing them to room temperature. If temperature compensation is not available, it is best to bring the battery as close to room temperature as possible before applying the conditioning charge".
I would suggest that without the remote installed the charge inverter is defaulting to wet cell mode... not good by most accounts.
IF yours are wet cell, then they should taper off to lower eq charge voltage rapidly, if all is well within.
These are the batteries I purchased. Energizer Golf Cart Battery - Group Size GC2 http://www.samsclub.com/sams/energizer-golf-cart-battery-group-size-gc2/prod6750008.ip?navAction=push (http://www.samsclub.com/sams/energizer-golf-cart-battery-group-size-gc2/prod6750008.ip?navAction=push)
Quote from: Brett G on May 25, 2015, 06:28:31 PM
These are the batteries I purchased. Energizer Golf Cart Battery - Group Size GC2 http://www.samsclub.com/sams/energizer-golf-cart-battery-group-size-gc2/prod6750008.ip?navAction=push (http://www.samsclub.com/sams/energizer-golf-cart-battery-group-size-gc2/prod6750008.ip?navAction=push)
so, the next question would be, how many minutes did you apply the charge ? if longer than a few did the charge v taper off ?
did you check each individual cell... is one cell/battery defective ? specific gravity, by optical hydrometer or bulb type ?
Example readings:
Three 6 volt batteries
Cell #1 Cell #2 Cell #3 Condition
Battery A 1.250 1.225 1.250 Recoverable
Battery B 1.275 1.250 1.225 Recoverable
Battery C 1.200 1.250 1.275 Open Cell
Battery C has an Open Cell
because the difference between Cell #1 and Cell #3 is .075, more
than .05.
Any battery that has a Short or Open Cell needs to be replaced. you only need to replace the bad battery with another used or new battery.
Have you been running 12v off your battery bank prior to charging?
You're 12v is not connected properly. They way you have it, you'll draw down 2 of your 8 batteries. This will affect the overall voltage of the whole bank, making the inverter
think it is lower than the other 6 really are, so it will try to compensate, which could cause overcharging of the other 6 (and ultimately undercharging of the 2 12v feeds.
That vanner doesn't seem to be doing anything the way you show it.
You need another wire between the two 12v half positives.
Quote from: muldoonman on May 25, 2015, 04:42:44 PM
What Jim said. Get the Magnum ME Battery Monitor Kit. Think it's a direct plug in with a 2 amp fuse protection. You can set it for the different batteries and it does make a difference. Think they are $180 bucks. Well worth it.
Wholesale Solar generally has the best Magnum prices - the remote is only $149.00 there: http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/inverter-folder/ME-RC50.html (http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/inverter-folder/ME-RC50.html)
Magnum also makes a more expensive remote with extra functions.
John
Hi Brett,
About 8 years ago when I used to use led acid batteries, out of my bank of 8 batteries, one was totally
dry without acid the day I purchased them. It resulted in a bad egg smell at the first charge and blew the
top off of the dry battery. This could be something to check.. Open them all up and do a hydrometer test!
Good Luck
Nick-
Gumpy, I think you got it! I'll report back. Thanks all
Me again. What Gumpy said looks to be the issue. I do have that wire connected in one of my other drawings. Guess I didn't want to follow that one. I'll still report back. https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1Us02X_ZduDrJoGBe2yOWzcjrVVp0puUTW0Kp-LTj9J8/edit?usp=sharing
Make sure you check all cells like Nick said. They all need to be filled. If low, use only distilled water. If empty, take the battery back and
have it replaced as you may already have damaged it.
I will. I'll then repost my updated diagram and maybe you could look it over again. Much appreciated.
Sure.
BTW, I'm not a fan of the way you're drawing your 12v from the large bank. Ultimately, even with that Vanner, you will reduce the life of your battery bank.
I'd recommend you put a 12v buffer battery in the system and move the 12v Vanner output to feed that battery, and take your 12v off that battery.
It doesn't need to be a deep cycle. A small starting battery will work just fine for that.
I've updated my diagram and rearranged some things. https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1Us02X_ZduDrJoGBe2yOWzcjrVVp0puUTW0Kp-LTj9J8/edit?usp=sharing
I checked all the water levels tonight and 1 cell in the entire group is a little low. I'll top that off before I do anymore.
I'll plug in that controller and make sure I'm not going to blast the sh*t out of them. It'll be this weekend before I get enough time to add that other cable and continue the testing.
Gumpy, thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into doing that. I am in know way or shape an electrician so thanks.
More to come. Thanks
Gumpy, take a look at page 6. The Tour/Charter Coach diagram. I believe that's what I have? Can you elaborate on the buffer battery? http://www.vanner.com/manuals/66-80.pdf (http://www.vanner.com/manuals/66-80.pdf)
Thanks
Your master switch is on the ground side. It needs to be on the Positive side, between the battery bank and the fuses.
You also need a switch and a fuse on the 12v supply to your 12v distribution box.
I assume the switch you show on the starting batteries is a crossover switch, and not your coach master switch.
Quote from: Brett G on May 26, 2015, 07:16:02 PM
Gumpy, take a look at page 6. The Tour/Charter Coach diagram. I believe that's what I have? Can you elaborate on the buffer battery? http://www.vanner.com/manuals/66-80.pdf (http://www.vanner.com/manuals/66-80.pdf)
Thanks
Look at the diagram at the top of page 8. Left hand side. The one that says, "Acceptable". Consider the 12v batteries on the right a single small car battery. The Vanner
charges them from the 24v bank. There's no imbalance on the house bank. The 12v loads are fed by the Vanner, and the battery takes up any temporary 12v load that is
higher than the Vanner output capability.
Quote from: gumpy on May 26, 2015, 07:20:26 PM
Your master switch is on the ground side. It needs to be on the Positive side, between the battery bank and the fuses.
You also need a switch and a fuse on the 12v supply to your 12v distribution box.
I assume the switch you show on the starting batteries is a crossover switch, and not your coach master switch.
Ok
Ok
You are correct
Quote from: gumpy on May 26, 2015, 07:28:55 PM
Look at the diagram at the top of page 8. Left hand side. The one that says, "Acceptable". Consider the 12v batteries on the right a single small car battery. The Vanner
charges them from the 24v bank. There's no imbalance on the house bank. The 12v loads are fed by the Vanner, and the battery takes up any temporary 12v load that is
higher than the Vanner output capability.
My Vanner is the 80amp versionn Wouldn't that mean the Vanner could handle 80amps and there would be no imbalance unless drawing over that?
In theory you are correct. In reality, plan on about 80% of that for normal usage, with the other 20% for short term surges usage.
That's why I say, you don't need a big buffer battery. Even a motorcycle battery would suffice. 80 amps is a crapload of power for normal RV usage,
especially when you have a huge inverter powering all your 120v appliances. You just won't use that much 12v power.
Make sure you size your cables accordingly. 80 amp potential requires a pretty large cable (2 ga, I think, though I didn't look it up). Which means the feed
to the Vanner would be probably 4 ga (again, I didn't confirm this).
You also need to make sure you have adequate space around that Vanner for cooling. It needs to be cool to be efficient. Same with your inverter.
And still put that on/ off switch on the negative cable between the Vanner and the battery because if you don't the Vanner will draw off your starts when parked and charger not on. You will go to go somewhere and it won't start. Trust me on this.
question in a minute
i know they make 24v radios http://farmradiosupply.com/24_volt_radio.html (http://farmradiosupply.com/24_volt_radio.html)
and 24v LED's http://www.waclighting.com/product/1325 (http://www.waclighting.com/product/1325)
why else does one want 12v available ?
While most of these are listed as 12 volts, their operating range is 10 to 30 volts.
http://www.sailorsams.com/replacement-led-halogen-xenon-MH-bulbs (http://www.sailorsams.com/replacement-led-halogen-xenon-MH-bulbs)
Quote from: Dave5Cs on May 27, 2015, 06:54:21 AM
And still put that on/ off switch on the negative cable between the Vanner and the battery because if you don't the Vanner will draw off your starts when parked and charger not on. You will go to go somewhere and it won't start. Trust me on this.
I do have a main disconnect on the starter batteries that isn't shown on the diagram. I also have a disconnect on the 24v line feeding the house bank. Do you think I still need one? Thanks
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1Us02X_ZduDrJoGBe2yOWzcjrVVp0puUTW0Kp-LTj9J8/edit
In my case, I've inherited some 12 volt stuff from the PO so I don't have a choice.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on May 27, 2015, 06:54:21 AMAnd still put that on/ off switch on the negative cable between the Vanner and the battery because if you don't the Vanner will draw off your starts when parked and charger not on. You will go to go somewhere and it won't start. Trust me on this.
My refrigerator runs on 12V. Will this kill my cool? Should I have a separate tap for the fridge before the main on/off switch? Thanks!
This last weekend I was able to program the remote and do some more testing. For whatever reason the batteries didn't like being hit with the default volts/amps in the absorb stage so I dialed back the charge rate. Thanks to everyone that provided their feedback. Very valuable to first timers like me.
So, what did you end up with for numbers?
Probably lower than I needed to go but being the entire system is new I was afraid of frying $800 worth of batteries. Currently in the Absorb stage it's charging at around 26.5V and 20 amps.
That is a good float voltage, but not for absorb. Overcharging and undercharging are the two best ways to ruin batteries.
Quote from: Jon on June 02, 2015, 03:26:23 AMThat is a good float voltage, but not for absorb. Overcharging and undercharging are the two best ways to ruin batteries.
Yes, exactly, If you're overheating and boiling batteries at recommended absorb charging voltage, you have something else wrong -- and that "something else wrong" will continue to kill your batteries and make your electrical system an on-going pain in the neck if you don't fix it. I'd check spec. gravity on all cells and isolate and charge each battery in your battery bank. Then I'd check them with a quality load tester. I'd also check cabling for corrosion and high resistance. Proper absorbtion voltage should be good for batteries, not damaging to them.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on June 02, 2015, 05:00:00 AM
Yes, exactly, If you're overheating and boiling batteries at recommended absorb charging voltage, you have something else wrong -- and that "something else wrong" will continue to kill your batteries and make your electrical system an on-going pain in the neck if you don't fix it. I'd check spec. gravity on all cells and isolate and charge each battery in your battery bank. Then I'd check them with a quality load tester. I'd also check cabling for corrosion and high resistance. Proper absorbtion voltage should be good for batteries, not damaging to them.
Thanks.
Maybe I should look at this differently. Everything is new and I've tripled checked the setup. How would I know if I'm truly boiling the batteries? With normal charging, wet cell batteries will bubble won't they? When does the sound of bubbling turn into boiling?
Here (again I think) You need to disconnect your batteries entirely
Take an accurate specific gravity reading of each cell.
number the batteries and record each cell.
Know/find the % of difference allowed between cells...new batteries should be 0 %.
charge each battery
The sound of bubbling is boiling.
Normally (in my experience). the only level of charge that boils/bubbles new batteries is equalization.
After cranking a car starter, in cold state, a new battery will see 14.3v....for a very short time and then it should/will level off to maybe 13.8 or.6 and when you shut off the key it will probably be 12.4.
But being a well maintained (by the alternator) a car battery never boils unless it is worn out.
An inverter of the quality that you have (probably temperature controlled (i hope)..the 'software' inherent to it should limit the boiling/bubbling to a minimal amount.
I use Trace and Xantrex inverters and have for 15 years. My experience even with equalization is that the batteries do not boil unless they are or have been abused or are aging out or 1 or more cells are bad.
More often than not equalization will extend the life of that bad cell but will not cure it,
Where your batteries are new I still suspect a bad cell.
http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/charging.html (http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/charging.html)
Quote from: eagle19952 on June 02, 2015, 12:34:35 PM
Here (again I think) You need to disconnect your batteries entirely
Take an accurate specific gravity reading of each cell.
number the batteries and record each cell.
Know/find the % of difference allowed between cells...new batteries should be 0 %.
charge each battery
The sound of bubbling is boiling.
Normally (in my experience). the only level of charge that boils/bubbles new batteries is equalization.
After cranking a car starter, in cold state, a new battery will see 14.3v....for a very short time and then it should/will level off to maybe 13.8 or.6 and when you shut off the key it will probably be 12.4.
But being a well maintained (by the alternator) a car battery never boils unless it is worn out.
An inverter of the quality that you have (probably temperature controlled (i hope)..the 'software' inherent to it should limit the boiling/bubbling to a minimal amount.
I use Trace and Xantrex inverters and have for 15 years. My experience even with equalization is that the batteries do not boil unless they are or have been abused or are aging out or 1 or more cells are bad.
More often than not equalization will extend the life of that bad cell but will not cure it,
Where your batteries are new I still suspect a bad cell.
http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/charging.html (http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/charging.html)
Thank you Don. I ended up calling Magnum....which i probably should have done earlier. The tech said that for brand new batteries that have never been charged, the strong smell and the sound was normal. The batteries were fully charged since my last post. I've now changed to the recommended settings and everything looks/sounds/smells better now since they were charged once. If anyone is interested, I've attached the link to the Maganum remote instructions. I don't imagine so but just in case others are curious. Thanks again to everyone. http://magnumenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/64-0030-Rev-C-ME-ARC_CD_Web.pdf (http://magnumenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/64-0030-Rev-C-ME-ARC_CD_Web.pdf)
Quote from: Brett G on May 27, 2015, 01:23:35 PM
I do have a main disconnect on the starter batteries that isn't shown on the diagram. I also have a disconnect on the 24v line feeding the house bank. Do you think I still need one? Thanks
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1Us02X_ZduDrJoGBe2yOWzcjrVVp0puUTW0Kp-LTj9J8/edit
Looking at your diagram; the battery ground should be connected to the lower bank.
Quote from: Lee Bradley on June 03, 2015, 11:35:35 AM
Looking at your diagram; the battery ground should be connected to the lower bank.
The issue was with my diagram, so thanks for pointing that out. In reality I've got the positive inverter cable going to the other battery. It's the red cable in this picture that is disconnected from the fuse. 3rd from the left.
https://goo.gl/photos/NBogGThhpK7jeT5W6
Updated the diagram to reflect that.
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1Us02X_ZduDrJoGBe2yOWzcjrVVp0puUTW0Kp-LTj9J8/edit
You have a better balance for charging the house batteries from the inverter now but it is still not best when charging from the engine alternator. Plus you have an extra cable and connections if you are using the inverter heavily while underway. The engine alternator output is going to the top row and then through the jumper cable to the bottom row and the inverter cable. I had to think about this because I am using the alternator/inverter to run my mini-splits underway.
Thanks