Hello everyone! Brand new here and a new to the world of buses. My wife and I just bought a 1964 GM 4106. Here we all are:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feverydayexciting.com%2Fimages%2F1964-gm-4106%2F2015-03-18-gm4106.JPG&hash=e901364cc68fcef0d3d936624a82ca49c0f31f92)
Bus was converted in '92 and also had a rebuild of the engine and transmission at the time. Everything works great on the bus (for the most part!). Got a great deal on it and we're excited to start our adventures.
The bus starts right up and I can easily start it off in 1st (and also reverse), but getting all other gears is a headache. I have tried to follow R.J. Long's guide (http://www.busnut.com/artrjl2.html (http://www.busnut.com/artrjl2.html)) to the letter, but I am still struggling.
We're in Texas. We bought the bus in Houston and I drove it to Austin (where we live), but the only way I was able to shift was by short-shifting (shifting into higher gears much too early) and lugging the engine a little bit (i accelerated even slower to lower amount of stress on engine). It will go into every gear and each gear feels good to accelerate.
When I drove it from Houston, I didn't know much about the Spicer 4-speed and so I did just about everything wrong. Now that I've had time to dig in and read a lot about it, I tried driving again, but still failed pretty miserably.
When I follow the instructions (and even try variations), I can get it going in first, but cannot for the life of me get it into 2nd at speed. All I get is grinding and more grinding. Not sure what else is helpful info here. Would love advice. Also if anyone who is an expert spicer 4-speed driver, is near to Austin, and would be willing to come help me out, I would very much appreciate. Lunch/Dinner/Beers/Whatever on me.
Anyways, still excited about our new bus, just frustrated at the moment. Thanks for all the incredible knowledge and resources on this board that I've been gobbling up like crazy this past month.
:)
Welcome to the asylum. Before I got my 4106 I watched a lot of videos on double clutching. Here is one of my favorites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI3t3NQj7q4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI3t3NQj7q4)
Ed
Welcome aboard ya`ll !!! Nice looking ride !! I`ve got a 66 MCI with a 4 speed spicer and I`ve drove her all of 200 miles with no trouble at all up shifting but my down shifting/double clutching needs serious help !! And had`nt seen the article you posted the link to , so my thanks to you !!
I will get my chance to practice down shifting soon when I bring her up to NH from Fla .
Good luck and Welcome!
Welcome!
Double clutching is a lost art. There aren't many people that even know what it is, let along that can actually do it. Watch the videos, practice, etc.
You can PM me (or RJ, I probably shouldn't speak on his behalf, but he is one of the nicest guys you'd want to meet) and either one of us would be happy to talk you through it. It might be easier to learn how to double clutch if you understand WHY you need to double clutch.
Good luck!
I had similar issues when I started, the one thing that helped me was between pressing and releasing the clutch the second time I rev the engine a little (a quick press and release as I shift) it works every time. I followed RJ's guide and ended up with a lot of grinding, I don't think he mentioned the quick rev but I could have missed it.
Good luck, it was very frustrating at first, but after driving it for a while it gets much more enjoyable.
Jim
These trans have no synchronizers to speed up or slow down the next gear so you have have a light touch and feel the gears mesh. Too fast a gear change or too slow will grind gears. The accelerator is as important as the clutch to get the engine the correct speed to get the gears turning the same speed. For an example as is downshifting from third to second. It goes like this,third to neutral,clutch out,speed engine up about five hundred rpm''s,clutch in shift to second,if it grinds clutch out in neutral ,speed up engine,clutch in shift to second. It's all about timing,if you get the gears spinning the same speed you don't even need a clutch. I know this sounds crazy but this is how we all learned,patience is your best bet with this trans. If you need to, pm me a phone # and I'll walk you through it.
I find it much easier on a non sync tranny to not use a clutch at all except from a dead stop. Once I'm rolling I just feather the shifter and throttle and learn the sweet spots. You will get a feel for the gears. Once you find it you will know it. Down shifting is quite a bit harder but there are sweet spots there as well. Double clutching is a lost art but can help quite a bit to learn as well. A lot of times over rev the engine between shifts and as the rpm's fall apply a soft touch to the shifter into the gear you are wanting but not enough to grind. If done right you will feel everything line up and it will fall into gear. HTH
Eric
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
You will get the hang of it. It is not that hard to do. My 12 year old grand daughter does just fine. 10 yard dump truck. Consider taking the shifting portion of a heavy truck driving course. In fact, the entire straight truck version would be a great idea. The education would go into areas you want to understand and excel at. Heavy. 35 feet long. Air brakes. Slow. Crash box tranny.
Stopping distance. Do not feel put off. After just a couple hours, you will be running up and down the gears 1 through 4 and back down again to first, all double clutching without making a noise or nicking a dog clutch. In fact you will be so proud of your new "trucker" skills, you and she will want to bring along friends just to impress them. Broom .... broom .... brooom. HB of CJ (old coot)
But then again, you may have a shift pipe or rod problem or no lube or some thing physically wrong with the shift linkage. My Crown Supercoach had lots of grease zerts on the shifter rod. Ten Speed Roadranger RTO910. Horrible to shift at first ... even I could not do it. Five minutes with a hand held grease gun fixed everything right up. Snick snick snick. Like shifting a dirt bike. Be sure to have fun.
Andy -
Welcome aboard, and congratulations on your purchase of the original "Sports Car of Buses!" Once you figure out the shifting, you'll grin every time you get behind the wheel. ;D
Here's another YT video about shifting, this one is with Fred Rayman behind the wheel of the iconic Scenicruiser. Same basic gearbox, same basic ratios, just in a T-drive configuration. Nice thing about watching Fred is that you can really hear the engine, so you get a better overall visual/audio of the technique, compared to the one of Alan Fong posted by Ed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlH3OrXcOdM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlH3OrXcOdM)
IBME that the vast majority of newbies to the GM stick shift try to rush the up shifts, and don't shift fast enough downshifting. It really is a timing issue, something that really takes a lot of practice. It also takes a bit to get used to the "feel" of the power train talking to you through the linkage.
If you can master the DTS (Dead Throttle Start - where you SLOWLY come thru through the clutch's take-up point w/o your foot on the throttle), you can master the gearbox. Like my article says, it just takes practice.
OTOH. . . I happen to have a nephew who lives in Austin that I haven't seen for awhile. . . :o
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
PS: What's the VIN on your new toy? PD4106-XXXX?
Quote from: eddieboy on May 20, 2015, 04:25:26 PM
Welcome to the asylum. Before I got my 4106 I watched a lot of videos on double clutching. Here is one of my favorites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI3t3NQj7q4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI3t3NQj7q4)
Ed
Thanks for the vid!
Quote from: lou432 on May 20, 2015, 05:15:54 PM
Welcome aboard ya`ll !!! Nice looking ride !! I`ve got a 66 MCI with a 4 speed spicer and I`ve drove her all of 200 miles with no trouble at all up shifting but my down shifting/double clutching needs serious help !! And had`nt seen the article you posted the link to , so my thanks to you !!
I will get my chance to practice down shifting soon when I bring her up to NH from Fla .
Good luck and Welcome!
You bet. Had a hard time finding the article (people kept mentioning it in posts) because most of the links were dead, but finally found it. Thanks for the welcome!
Quote from: OneLapper on May 20, 2015, 05:37:46 PM
Welcome!
Double clutching is a lost art. There aren't many people that even know what it is, let along that can actually do it. Watch the videos, practice, etc.
You can PM me (or RJ, I probably shouldn't speak on his behalf, but he is one of the nicest guys you'd want to meet) and either one of us would be happy to talk you through it. It might be easier to learn how to double clutch if you understand WHY you need to double clutch.
Good luck!
Thanks! I'm going to try some more with of these tips in the thread. If that doesn't work out you'll be seeing a PM :)
I've driven manual cars my whole life and on two of them (poor synchros) I had to double clutch. Im used to the action of double-clutching, but this big bus is a lot different :) Time for more practice.
Quote from: pennuja on May 20, 2015, 06:38:43 PM
I had similar issues when I started, the one thing that helped me was between pressing and releasing the clutch the second time I rev the engine a little (a quick press and release as I shift) it works every time. I followed RJ's guide and ended up with a lot of grinding, I don't think he mentioned the quick rev but I could have missed it.
Good luck, it was very frustrating at first, but after driving it for a while it gets much more enjoyable.
Jim
Thanks for the tip!
Quote from: rgrauto on May 20, 2015, 07:27:12 PM
These trans have no synchronizers to speed up or slow down the next gear so you have have a light touch and feel the gears mesh. Too fast a gear change or too slow will grind gears. The accelerator is as important as the clutch to get the engine the correct speed to get the gears turning the same speed. For an example as is downshifting from third to second. It goes like this,third to neutral,clutch out,speed engine up about five hundred rpm''s,clutch in shift to second,if it grinds clutch out in neutral ,speed up engine,clutch in shift to second. It's all about timing,if you get the gears spinning the same speed you don't even need a clutch. I know this sounds crazy but this is how we all learned,patience is your best bet with this trans. If you need to, pm me a phone # and I'll walk you through it.
Thanks for the advice! I don't have a tach, so knowing my exact rpms is tough. For the upshifts, when I put in the clutch, bring it out of gear, let out the clutch, I'm still giving it a fair amount of throttle too? Before I put clutch back in and grab next gear?
Quote from: daddyoften on May 20, 2015, 08:44:44 PM
I find it much easier on a non sync tranny to not use a clutch at all except from a dead stop. Once I'm rolling I just feather the shifter and throttle and learn the sweet spots. You will get a feel for the gears. Once you find it you will know it. Down shifting is quite a bit harder but there are sweet spots there as well. Double clutching is a lost art but can help quite a bit to learn as well. A lot of times over rev the engine between shifts and as the rpm's fall apply a soft touch to the shifter into the gear you are wanting but not enough to grind. If done right you will feel everything line up and it will fall into gear. HTH
Eric
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
Thanks for the tips. I keep reading that you can shift without the clutch, but Im having a hard time wrapping my mind around that!
Quote from: HB of CJ on May 20, 2015, 09:46:58 PM
You will get the hang of it. It is not that hard to do. My 12 year old grand daughter does just fine. 10 yard dump truck. Consider taking the shifting portion of a heavy truck driving course. In fact, the entire straight truck version would be a great idea. The education would go into areas you want to understand and excel at. Heavy. 35 feet long. Air brakes. Slow. Crash box tranny.
Stopping distance. Do not feel put off. After just a couple hours, you will be running up and down the gears 1 through 4 and back down again to first, all double clutching without making a noise or nicking a dog clutch. In fact you will be so proud of your new "trucker" skills, you and she will want to bring along friends just to impress them. Broom .... broom .... brooom. HB of CJ (old coot)
But then again, you may have a shift pipe or rod problem or no lube or some thing physically wrong with the shift linkage. My Crown Supercoach had lots of grease zerts on the shifter rod. Ten Speed Roadranger RTO910. Horrible to shift at first ... even I could not do it. Five minutes with a hand held grease gun fixed everything right up. Snick snick snick. Like shifting a dirt bike. Be sure to have fun.
Thanks for the advice. Hopefully I don't have any mechanical issues, or if I do something easy like needing lubrication. I need to learn my way around the mechanics of the bus so I can spot this stuff.
Quote from: RJ on May 20, 2015, 10:23:44 PM
Andy -
Welcome aboard, and congratulations on your purchase of the original "Sports Car of Buses!" Once you figure out the shifting, you'll grin every time you get behind the wheel. ;D
Here's another YT video about shifting, this one is with Fred Rayman behind the wheel of the iconic Scenicruiser. Same basic gearbox, same basic ratios, just in a T-drive configuration. Nice thing about watching Fred is that you can really hear the engine, so you get a better overall visual/audio of the technique, compared to the one of Alan Fong posted by Ed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlH3OrXcOdM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlH3OrXcOdM)
IBME that the vast majority of newbies to the GM stick shift try to rush the up shifts, and don't shift fast enough downshifting. It really is a timing issue, something that really takes a lot of practice. It also takes a bit to get used to the "feel" of the power train talking to you through the linkage.
If you can master the DTS (Dead Throttle Start - where you SLOWLY come thru through the clutch's take-up point w/o your foot on the throttle), you can master the gearbox. Like my article says, it just takes practice.
OTOH. . . I happen to have a nephew who lives in Austin that I haven't seen for awhile. . . :o
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
PS: What's the VIN on your new toy? PD4106-XXXX?
Thanks for the welcome and advice! We're pretty excited about our sports car bus :) The VIN is PD4106-2522. Do you have a way to look it up? I've had no success.
Thanks for the vid, that one looks helpful too.
I've tried slowing my timing and speeding up my timing for the upshifts. I'm starting to think a big problem of mine is not using the throttle properly during my shifts. Still not 100% on what Im doing with my right foot during the shift operation.
DTS I've got down. All my years of manual transmission driving prepped me for that one. That's easy... everything else though, not so easy!
Let me know if you visit your nephew ;)
Quote from: andyps on May 21, 2015, 10:17:13 AM
The VIN is PD4106-2522. Do you have a way to look it up?
PD4106-2522 was delivered new in May of 1964 as fleet number 37 to Denver-Boulder Bus Co, HQ'd in Boulder, CO. Probably stayed in their fleet 10 - 15 years before being sold off to somebody else.
Quote from: andyps on May 21, 2015, 10:17:13 AM
I'm starting to think a big problem of mine is not using the throttle properly during my shifts. Still not 100% on what I'm doing with my right foot during the shift operation.
On up shifts, are you coming completely off the throttle? When
up shifting properly, you shouldn't have to "blip" the throttle at all. Obviously you have to do so on down shifts. . .
Are you winding the engine all the way to the governor on each up shift? Coach performs best when you do, and it won't hurt the engine.
Try this: Take the coach out to a traffic-free area where you can practice. Put into first, get coach rolling, wind it to the governor w/ your hand on the shift lever and feel for when the tension in the powertrain changes as you hit the governor. Come off the throttle and then do it again. Repeat this just in 1st gear several times until you really can feel that tension change in the palm of your hand.
Once you've got that down, now try putting a little tension on the shift lever, like you're going to pull it out of gear. Not a hard pull, just tension. Get the coach rolling, and add this tension as the coach approaches the governor. If you have the right tension, when the engine hits the governor and stabilizes, it should come right out of gear. Stop and practice again several times until you really get the feel of it. (Hold throttle steady while you do this, at least until you can pull it out of gear, then release.)
Now try going from 1st to 2nd, using this tension tip to pull it out of 1st. As soon as it comes out, immediately put in the clutch and hold the shift lever against 2nd until it drops in, LISTENING carefully to the engine pitch, but NOT releasing the clutch. Stop, put the coach back into 1st and repeat as often as necessary until you get the timing down.
Be sure to take your foot OFF the throttle as soon as it pops out of 1st! At no time practicing this part of the tip should you let the clutch out in 2nd. This is only to get you to begin to understand the timing and feel of the 1-2 shift.
Try that and see if that helps, then report back.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: RJ on May 21, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
PD4106-2522 was delivered new in May of 1964 as fleet number 37 to Denver-Boulder Bus Co, HQ'd in Boulder, CO. Probably stayed in their fleet 10 - 15 years before being sold off to somebody else.
That's great, thanks for the info!
Quote from: RJ on May 21, 2015, 11:43:07 AM
On up shifts, are you coming completely off the throttle? When up shifting properly, you shouldn't have to "blip" the throttle at all. Obviously you have to do so on down shifts. . .
Are you winding the engine all the way to the governor on each up shift? Coach performs best when you do, and it won't hurt the engine.
Try this: Take the coach out to a traffic-free area where you can practice. Put into first, get coach rolling, wind it to the governor w/ your hand on the shift lever and feel for when the tension in the powertrain changes as you hit the governor. Come off the throttle and then do it again. Repeat this just in 1st gear several times until you really can feel that tension change in the palm of your hand.
Once you've got that down, now try putting a little tension on the shift lever, like you're going to pull it out of gear. Not a hard pull, just tension. Get the coach rolling, and add this tension as the coach approaches the governor. If you have the right tension, when the engine hits the governor and stabilizes, it should come right out of gear. Stop and practice again several times until you really get the feel of it. (Hold throttle steady while you do this, at least until you can pull it out of gear, then release.)
Now try going from 1st to 2nd, using this tension tip to pull it out of 1st. As soon as it comes out, immediately put in the clutch and hold the shift lever against 2nd until it drops in, LISTENING carefully to the engine pitch, but NOT releasing the clutch. Stop, put the coach back into 1st and repeat as often as necessary until you get the timing down. Be sure to take your foot OFF the throttle as soon as it pops out of 1st! At no time practicing this part of the tip should you let the clutch out in 2nd. This is only to get you to begin to understand the timing and feel of the 1-2 shift.
Try that and see if that helps, then report back.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
On up shifts I was coming off the throttle completely, so I guess I was doing that part right. Yes I was winding all the way up to the governor (about 15mph) and as I gently pulled the stick back towards 2nd I'd feel the engine hit the governor.
I'll try to take it out tomorrow or this weekend and try what you are suggesting and see how that goes. Just so I have this straight, the change into second should just happen naturally as the bus slows (with the clutch in after pulling out of first)?
I think another bit of trouble I've been having is just feeling like I have enough time. Last time I tried to find an empty stretch of road, I'd still have cars coming up behind, so I wasn't really calm trying this out. I'll try to find a better stretch and try a time when there will be less people out. I think a little less pressure to get it right will do me some good.
Thanks RJ!
Also, how heavy is the clutch pedal supposed to be on these buses? After my drive from Houston to Austin, my left leg had quite the workout!
Andy -
I'd suggest you take it out this weekend to a nearby industrial park where 90% of the businesses are closed for the weekend to practice. Lot less traffic in those areas. Especially at 0800 on a Sunday morning!
The clutch can be heavy or really light, there's a whole bunch of factors involved. First is proper adjustment, which actually, according to the book, starts up front and works it's way back. At this point in time, it's not unusual to have a lot of slop in the linkage, slop that needs to be rebuilt to remove it and improve the clutch action. Worst case scenario is the wrong clutch parts installed at some point.
Some folk may chime in and say put an Allison V-730 automatic in it, but if you enjoy the manual, it's a moot point. Can be a PITA when trying to wiggle into some campsites perhaps, but that's why you scout out your parking site first. It's also a PITA in heavy traffic (Dallas? Los Angeles!), but if you avoid major commute times, that can be avoided somewhat.
OOOPS!! Major mistake alert!
I just re-read my post to answer your question, and realized that what I said was bass ackwards to what I meant!
What I meant to say was that as you find the coach stabilizing and you can pull it out of 1st with the clutch out, bump the shift lever up against 2nd with the clutch OUT (not in!) and feel when it starts to drop into gear as the engine RPM falls off. Immediately kick in the clutch so you can come to a stop and try it again w/o causing a lot of bucking of the drive train. Be sure and LISTEN to the engine as you practice this, too.
Clear as mud?
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Ok, this has nothing to do with your thread, cause we have an Allison auto trans, but you're young and so are we, and we are in Keene, TX and live in our MCI bus. So we must connect. :) I'll PM you. :)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dang. I winter in the RGV, and just drove by your place a week ago. I could have stopped and tried to help you out on my way North. Just give it time, you will learn a bit on each drive. Be patient on those upshifts, it takes a while for those big gears to mesh up. When I pull it out of gear, no throttle, it takes about a 5 count before its ready to go into the next gear. During the last part of that 5 count I have very slight pressure on the next gear and can feel it all as it gets close to meshing. Good luck.
Look at the YouTube VDO of Fred Rayman that RJ has the link. That is thee way to drive a 4 speed. Do NOT touch the accelerator when up shifting, as did on the other VDO. Just keep in mind, 8V-71's drop quickly in rpm's. Don't be slow on the shift.
Shifting a 13spd Roadranger in a truck isn't much different. I had 1.2 million miles on the truck and original clutch (never did a clutch job) when I converted it to the HT740 Allison. It is possible to shift without clutch, but would not suggest it on just a 4 speed-too big of gaps. When shifting, rev to the governor, then shift. Good Luck, TomC
Oh, here's a little bit of trivia related to the Fred Rayman video:
At the 3:50 mark, the gentleman sitting on the right as the cameraman works his way back is Larry Plachno, the Editor & Publisher of National Bus Trader, one of the bus industry's major trade magazines.
;D
After reading all the answers, maybe that straight truck truck driving school may be the best bet. Respectfully, you are receiving conflicting information on how to shift your Cool 4106. There are many different variables regarding shifting. Grade, temperature, altitude, up hill, down hill, engine and tranny temperatures, even strong headwinds make a slight difference.
The key to it all is hours of experience and establishing that necessary mental-muscle memory and being able to subconsciously adapt for the aforementioned conditions outlined above. Again, easy. About the only way to do it is to have a pro lead you through it and then watch and make the corrections. I for one have not driven a 4106 since 1970, but I am sure I could do just time.
How? Mind-muscle memory and experience. Like riding a bicycle. A hundred things happen every second, but you are not aware of it. Hope this helps. HB
I guess I'll chime in too - just because I feel like it took me a while to get the hang of it. I finally found that gathering information from others was good, but my (and I suspect every) bus has its little quirks and ways it likes things done. What finally made me feel like I had it under control was to go on a couple of long trips with it once I felt like I could reliably go down the road without being a safety hazard. You'll be put in all kinds of situations that you have to work your way out of and you'll have plenty of opportunities to test different theories and ways of doing things. I have a tachometer, but have found that it's more of a "sound and feel" kind of thing for me. I guess my advice is to read up all you can, but then just drive it. On my bus, some of the ways I've read about doing things turned out to be exactly opposite of what my bus was asking for, and knowing that can really only be gained from experience. You'll get it.
Crazy heavy. So heavy that my SO has to pull up on the steering wheel to have enough force to push down on the clutch pedal.
Do a quick search on 4106 clutch on this forum. Lots of info.
I had never driven a non-synchro 20,000# vehicle before and drove our 4104 from Sanford, FL to Augusta, MI. I used the clutch for all gears and avoided grinding 50% of the time. Once back home, I talked to a couple who are former truck drivers and now run my local hardware store. They said "just don't use the clutch." Saves a ton of work on your quads. Starting from a dead stop you have to use the clutch, but from there on I never use the clutch to shift up or down. It's all about matching the engine rpm with the tranny speed, basically driving with your throttle rather than the clutch. Much less work. Shifting up I let off the throttle while pulling gently on the stick until it falls out of first gently continue with a little pressure and it will fall into second. With an hour or less of practice you'll feel the rpm levels where the "sweet spot" is. Down shifting was more of a challenge. You let off the throttle while applying light pressure and it will drop out of gear immediately. Then, rev the engine above the rpm's you shifted out and then let off wait for the sweet spot to show up with slight pressure to drop it into the lower gear. If you miss, keep you foot off the clutch, rev it up to just higher than when you missed it and try again.
The MOST important thing to keep in mind is that you must slow down and get out of 4th gear and into 3rd BEFORE you begin a steep descent. NEVER start a steep descent in 4th. Once your engine is rev'ing at the limit in 4th, you have no way to get'er into 3rd without a lot of braking. I descend 5-6% grades in third at about 35 mph breaking when I get up to 45mph (47mph is the top of my 3rd gear rpm's) to bring it down to 35mph again. My biggest challenge was getting over going slow. I felt like I was obstructing traffic, but after a couple of long climbs, or descents out west, I found that there were plenty of heavy 18 wheelers going slower than me. Just put on your flashers and don't worry about the faster traffic. There ya go! Just one more opinion.
Quote from: RJ on May 21, 2015, 07:40:49 PM
Andy -
I'd suggest you take it out this weekend to a nearby industrial park where 90% of the businesses are closed for the weekend to practice. Lot less traffic in those areas. Especially at 0800 on a Sunday morning!
The clutch can be heavy or really light, there's a whole bunch of factors involved. First is proper adjustment, which actually, according to the book, starts up front and works it's way back. At this point in time, it's not unusual to have a lot of slop in the linkage, slop that needs to be rebuilt to remove it and improve the clutch action. Worst case scenario is the wrong clutch parts installed at some point.
Some folk may chime in and say put an Allison V-730 automatic in it, but if you enjoy the manual, it's a moot point. Can be a PITA when trying to wiggle into some campsites perhaps, but that's why you scout out your parking site first. It's also a PITA in heavy traffic (Dallas? Los Angeles!), but if you avoid major commute times, that can be avoided somewhat.
OOOPS!! Major mistake alert!
I just re-read my post to answer your question, and realized that what I said was bass ackwards to what I meant!
What I meant to say was that as you find the coach stabilizing and you can pull it out of 1st with the clutch out, bump the shift lever up against 2nd with the clutch OUT (not in!) and feel when it starts to drop into gear as the engine RPM falls off. Immediately kick in the clutch so you can come to a stop and try it again w/o causing a lot of bucking of the drive train. Be sure and LISTEN to the engine as you practice this, too.
Clear as mud?
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Boom! That works!
Sorry for the slow update. Had a busy past few weeks and the bus is 45mins away in storage (until our yard is finished next week). Finally had time to get up there today and try out the shifting tricks. Did exactly what you said and on the second try I was shifting like a champ. Drove it around a big parking lot and then felt good enough for the open road. Used same technique (more or less) for all the gears.
In first, I put light pressure back towards neutral as the engine stabilized, pops right out into neutral. Wait a sec, clutch goes in and press back towards 2nd, slips right in! In second, pull back gently as I get to max revs, engine stabilizes, you can feel it wanting to move on to next gear. Clutch in, neutral, count to 2, clutch out, clutch in, pull towards 3rd and voila!
I was shifting all the way up to 4th easy peasy after about 30mins of practice.
I was so worried something was wrong with the transmission, but once I got to where I could feel what it was doing, it was smooth as silk! All those years of double clutching in my car paid off.
Thanks again for all the pointers! I am elated at the moment where I was previously frustrated. Excited to take it for another spin in a few days.
Now downshifting... haven't tried that one yet :)
Thanks everyone for your help!
I spent a lot of time with a 13 speed spicer when I was younger. I had to give a guy a ride one time and half way through the trip he commented that he had never seen a clutch-less manual tranny (That was back in the day, I know things have changed). After enough miles under your belt you might one day get the same question. It did give me a good laugh though.
After I get moving, I only use the clutch at complete stops.
(Upshifting) Start off in 1st. At about 2300 rpm, as you let off the throttle. gently pull the shifter into neutral,(leaving the clutch out. This allows the tranny to match/sinc with the engine speed). Leaving the clutch out. When the rpm drops to about 1500, gently slip the shifter into 2nd gear. Throttle down. Repeat for the rest of upshifting.
Downshifting: When down shifting just do the reverse. example: From 4th: Allow the rpms to drop to about 1500. Now you have to get the tranny up to match/sinc the speed that the engine 'will be going AFTER' the shift. (between 2000 and 2300 rpms)
To do this, (leaving the clutch out)
1. At about 1500 rpm, let off the throttle and shift into neutral.
2. reeve the engine to about 2100 rpm and as you let off the throttle again, you shove the shifter into 3rd.
3. Press the throttle. Away you go!
After a little practice you'll be a pro! Not having to press the clutch save your left leg going across the mountains. Good luck!
Danny
Next need to practice going from 4th to 2nd as in slowing and turning at an intersection or a turn off to a side road. Btw, if the trans is like the 4104's, shift timing is faster when trans is cold compared to fully warmed up.