The family and I are now in the Niagara Falls area of New York after 1100+ miles. The bus has been running great with one exception - passenger front wheel seal. This wheel seal is driving me crazy. A year + ago a wheel seal that had a decade on it since last being replaced started leaking. I have now replaced it twice since then. This latest seal was put on last fall and then the bus was parked for the winter. The seal did not leak a drop for the past 6 months while parked. Then, on the way east it started leaking again. Overnight when the wheel cools off the seal will not leak at all. Then during the day when the hub gets up to temperature, about 100 degrees, it will start to leak. It is not leaking a lot, just enough to be annoying. It appears to be leaking around the outer edge of the seal where it is pressed into the hub. Now that I look back at the prior three failures they all seam to happen only when the hub is warm. I'm at a loss now. I know if I simply put a new one on it will leak as well. What should I be looking for? Is there any other sort of seal compound I can put on the seal and/or hub when I install it to try and keep it dry? Or, should I just convert over to grease? I don't think my technique is necessarily the problem as I have 1 drive axle and two tag axle hub seals I've replaced that are leak free. However, you never know.
And just for grins, here is a screen shot from my VMSPC program while running down the road today.
I'd almost bet that the problem is wheel bearing adjustment. Years ago I had the same problem with an LN 750 Ford truck. I changed the seal twice, but it kept leaking. Fortunately, a friend who was an experienced truck mechanic heard me mention it and offered to take a look. I cannot give a formula for how he decided it was tight enough — over tight does not work — but when he got through, the seal never leaked. That may be something you could find through internet research.
As I read back over this post, I remember that he left the wheel in place and jacked up that corner. After removing the hub cover and the lock nut, he spun the wheel in the direction to tighten the adjuster nut and jammed a long punch between the spinning hub and the nut. He commented that this method gave him a better feel for how tight the nut was than he got using a socket and breaker bar. If I were doing the job, I believe I would use a socket and bar, but I would spin the wheel by hand as I tightened the nut. That seems to give a more accurate feel for how tight the adjustment is.
I had bought a third seal, but he looked at the one in the hub and reused it.
Good luck with the problem. Let us know what works.
Jim
If you have done all of them and this same one leaks every time, Could it be the Hub seat or race and not the seal at all?
Dave5Cs
"he spun the wheel in the direction to tighten the adjuster nut and jammed a long punch between the spinning hub and the nut. He commented that this method gave him a better feel for how tight the nut was than he got using a socket and breaker bar".
Exactly how I was taught to do it..cept I always used cold chisels...
Infact i was told by a fellow that worked for Timken that if you look at a bearing in rotation, you will see each individual roller rotating, when each roller is turning uniformly/synchronous in relation to each other, that is good enough. tighten as far as necsasary to facilitate the lock and your done. Did many (over 40 years) this way and never lost a one, bearing or seal.
Were I you and my seal was leaking from the outer circumference , and this has happened more than once, I would install the next one with loctite bearing set compound.
Loctite ® 609™ is a low viscosity, rapid-curing anaerobic adhesive that augments the strength of press fit assemblies or slip fit assemblies up to 0.005"in diameter. Adds up to 3,000 psi holding power. Recommended for parts that will need subsequent dismantling, i.e., retention of bearings onto shafts and into housings.
I would make sure the vent hole in the rubber plug is not pluged up or painted over. :o
Seal leakage is typically caused by improperly adjusted bearings, as indicated above.
You could put some RTV around the seal when you put it in. Make sure the seat and seal are completely dry and only use a thin coat on the seal itself.
Oh, and about your VMSPC thingy.... Holy crap! Talk about distracted driving!
Quote from: gumpy on May 03, 2015, 07:18:27 PM
You could put some RTV around the seal when you put it in.
i used to walk around my shop and fill a five gallon bucket with tubes of silicone...i hate it. my mechanics bought it, i paid for it and i threw it away. rtv is for bath tubs...it is an adhesive.
Get a dial indicator and check the end play of the bearing. With everything at ambient temperature the end play should be 0.001 to 0.002 inches. I spend several hours researching this. The best bearing life is achieved with a slight preload (no end play). Putting more preload will shorten the life of the bearing. It is difficult to measure how much preload is on the bearing. That is why they recommend the 0.001 inch of end play.
Once the seal is pressed in I smear The Right Stuff from Permatex around the outer edge of the seal. In my opinion this goop is far superior to RTV.
Milo
Hey Brian, do you ever get CE or SE lights with intake air temps that high? Cummins engineering told me that up in that area and you will get a ramp down or light, it's happened on my ISM before. Correction: that's at 170 deg. not 70 deg.
Triseal premium wheel seals will stop those leaks that keep coming back fwiw I have always used SKF Scotseal till I tried the Triseal big difference and easy to install
Quote from: bandsaw on May 03, 2015, 07:44:56 PM
Get a dial indicator and check the end play of the bearing. With everything at ambient temperature the end play should be 0.001 to 0.002 inches.
Milo
92$ jobber price...never knew they made such a deal...
5. The dial indicator shows the amount of bearing end play. It should read between 0.001' and 0.005' (in accordance with TMC Recommended Guidelines).
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftriseal.vayanet.net%2FProducts%2Fdata%2Fcatalog%2FBADGtool.jpg&hash=87ca004a93ccb93b854103b972623fc18edea273)
http://triseal.vayanet.net/Products/data/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9 (http://triseal.vayanet.net/Products/data/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9)
Brian, Which way are you heading? East?
Quote from: Dave5Cs on May 03, 2015, 06:02:44 PM
If you have done all of them and this same one leaks every time, Could it be the Hub seat or race and not the seal at all?
Dave5Cs
Dave - I'm wondering the same thing as well. I'm not sure how I could tell for sure, that is the problem.
Quote from: Lostranger on May 03, 2015, 05:42:18 PM
I'd almost bet that the problem is wheel bearing adjustment. Years ago I had the same problem with an LN 750 Ford truck. I changed the seal twice, but it kept leaking. Fortunately, a friend who was an experienced truck mechanic heard me mention it and offered to take a look. I cannot give a formula for how he decided it was tight enough — over tight does not work — but when he got through, the seal never leaked. That may be something you could find through internet research.
As I read back over this post, I remember that he left the wheel in place and jacked up that corner. After removing the hub cover and the lock nut, he spun the wheel in the direction to tighten the adjuster nut and jammed a long punch between the spinning hub and the nut. He commented that this method gave him a better feel for how tight the nut was than he got using a socket and breaker bar. If I were doing the job, I believe I would use a socket and bar, but I would spin the wheel by hand as I tightened the nut. That seems to give a more accurate feel for how tight the adjustment is.
I had bought a third seal, but he looked at the one in the hub and reused it.
Good luck with the problem. Let us know what works.
Jim
Jim - I'll jack it up when I get a chance and see what might be going on. I'd sure like to have that $100 end play indicator to be able to measure end play directly.
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 03, 2015, 06:09:53 PM
"he spun the wheel in the direction to tighten the adjuster nut and jammed a long punch between the spinning hub and the nut. He commented that this method gave him a better feel for how tight the nut was than he got using a socket and breaker bar".
Exactly how I was taught to do it..cept I always used cold chisels...
Infact i was told by a fellow that worked for Timken that if you look at a bearing in rotation, you will see each individual roller rotating, when each roller is turning uniformly/synchronous in relation to each other, that is good enough. tighten as far as necsasary to facilitate the lock and your done. Did many (over 40 years) this way and never lost a one, bearing or seal.
Were I you and my seal was leaking from the outer circumference , and this has happened more than once, I would install the next one with loctite bearing set compound.
Loctite ® 609™ is a low viscosity, rapid-curing anaerobic adhesive that augments the strength of press fit assemblies or slip fit assemblies up to 0.005"in diameter. Adds up to 3,000 psi holding power. Recommended for parts that will need subsequent dismantling, i.e., retention of bearings onto shafts and into housings.
I'm not quite sure I understand the "jamming" part of this. If the hub is spinning what is the punch jammed into?
As far as Loctite 609 - is this generally available and easy to find or a special order part only?
Quote from: Tom Y on May 04, 2015, 04:18:17 AM
Brian, Which way are you heading? East?
Tom - We'll head over to Albany on Tuesday. We will be in the area for a couple of weeks while my wife starts treatment for Lyme disease.
Quote from: luvrbus on May 03, 2015, 08:16:01 PM
Triseal premium wheel seals will stop those leaks that keep coming back fwiw I have always used SKF Scotseal till I tried the Triseal big difference and easy to install
Clifford - I have a mohawk brand seal in right now. Is the Triseal better than that?
Quote from: Boomer on May 03, 2015, 07:59:44 PM
Hey Brian, do you ever get CE or SE lights with intake air temps that high? Cummins engineering told me that up in that area and you will get a ramp down or light, it's happened on my ISM before. Correction: that's at 170 deg. not 70 deg.
Hi Boomer,
I've never seen my intake air temps above the 90s. In this picture you see the intake manifold temp is 86. The ambient outside temperature was 75 - 80 during the same time. I have seen the intake manifold stay generally 10 degrees above ambient at full throttle loads. So, no, I've never seen an CE light come on.
Quote from: gumpy on May 03, 2015, 07:19:27 PM
Oh, and about your VMSPC thingy.... Holy crap! Talk about distracted driving!
Craig - it really isn't this bad in actual practice. I know what every gauge is and what its purpose is. When I need to know something I can look directly at the piece of information I'm looking for and then back to the road within a second or two. I also look at less information in busy areas as all my attention is required on the road. So - don't let the amount of information be overwhelming. A quick one second glance is all it takes. In fact, it takes me less time to see the coolant temp on the VMSPc readout than it does for me to see it on the gauge on the dash. To see coolant temp on the dash gauge I have to lean forward to see between the steering wheel and down in the hole the gauge is set into. I just don't understand MCIs logic when they laid out the dash on the A series of buses.
I would go with the Triseaal or Scotseal the Triseal seems to work better with the old hubs that are a little out of round from seals being installed over the years JMO
At the 12 oclock position inside the bearing cavity of the hub, at the top of the ID arc, and with a preload adj nut finger tight, and a flat, at the 12 oclock position, (here note, the sharp end of the chisel si the wrong end) insert at a right angle the hammer end of a chisel ( I prefer square vs hex), at also the twelve oclock position. as you rotate the wheel (drum,hub,and tire) the chisel will wedge causing the rotating tire to jamb at approximately the 1 oclock position. This will "tighten,torque the inner WB nut.
At the end (tightened torque point) remove (reverse wheel), and observe the individual rollers, they all should rotate at the same speed and move from the bottom to the top and turn in unison/synch...
As a field service mechanic, imagine all of the wheel bearing socket sizes one would need to carry to adj. 12 or more different axle bearings and the amount of space they would consume on a field service truck where 3-4 chisels each a different thickness would accomplish the same task.
1000+ axle bearings have been adj this way, never lost one. good luck.
Clear as mud... :)
Check the spindle area where the bearing rides for wear on the lower side. It could have a wear spot causing the hub to shift, even though bearing is correctly adjusted. I ran into this several years ago on a previous coach. Finally found it after a few seal replacements. BTW, fwiw, I STILL recommend grease packed bearings for these older coaches because of the mess and cost plus labor. Some will argue the point but my opinion won't be changed.
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 04, 2015, 08:30:28 AM
At the 12 oclock position inside the bearing cavity of the hub, at the top of the ID arc, and with a preload adj nut finger tight, and a flat, at the 12 oclock position, (here note, the sharp end of the chisel si the wrong end) insert at a right angle the hammer end of a chisel ( I prefer square vs hex), at also the twelve oclock position. as you rotate the wheel (drum,hub,and tire) the chisel will wedge causing the rotating tire to jamb at approximately the 1 oclock position. This will "tighten,torque the inner WB nut.
At the end (tightened torque point) remove (reverse wheel), and observe the individual rollers, they all should rotate at the same speed and move from the bottom to the top and turn in unison/synch...
As a field service mechanic, imagine all of the wheel bearing socket sizes one would need to carry to adj. 12 or more different axle bearings and the amount of space they would consume on a field service truck where 3-4 chisels each a different thickness would accomplish the same task.
1000+ axle bearings have been adj this way, never lost one. good luck.
Clear as mud... :)
Thanks Donald. That makes perfect sense to me now. For me, the hardest part of getting the seal on is getting the rubber part of the seal to slip on the wear ring on the spindle. Once the seal is bottomed out the adjusting goes much easier. Getting to that point always makes me nervous since it seams to take so much torque on the axle nut to get it on.
Quote from: chessie4905 on May 04, 2015, 12:30:23 PM
Check the spindle area where the bearing rides for wear on the lower side. It could have a wear spot causing the hub to shift, even though bearing is correctly adjusted. I ran into this several years ago on a previous coach. Finally found it after a few seal replacements. BTW, fwiw, I STILL recommend grease packed bearings for these older coaches because of the mess and cost plus labor. Some will argue the point but my opinion won't be changed.
Cheesie, was the wear spot really obvious or did it take special measuring calipers to find it?
Also, what is the procedure to convert over to grease hubs? What are the arguments for and against it?
Quote from: luvrbus on May 04, 2015, 06:51:09 AM
I would go with the Triseaal or Scotseal the Triseal seems to work better with the old hubs that are a little out of round from seals being installed over the years JMO
Is this the specific model you are recommending?
http://triseal.vayanet.net/Products/data/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4 (http://triseal.vayanet.net/Products/data/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4)
Anybody know the Scotseal (or other) number for the MCI hubs? The MCI part number is 15r-2-9.
Thanks.
It's obvious, you can feel the ridge with your finger tip. put a little lube on the id of seal and od of rub ring and rotate slghtly as you slide hub over it. I always put hubs on without tires mounted, front or rear. Some leave tire/s mounted to hub
Quote from: Brian Diehl on May 04, 2015, 04:28:32 PM
Thanks Donald.
. Getting to that point always makes me nervous since it seams to take so much torque on the axle nut to get it on.
there in lies (part of) your problem...seating the seal with the nut never worked for me....a hoist, a tire dolly, greased concrete, greased plywood or a "drum harness" or two men cradling the hub with a strap....and putting the hub with inner bearing "home" verified with the outer bearing is a better way to assure the integrity of the seal...
YMMV JMW IMHO etc....
Are you sure that the seal you are installing is compatible with the speedi (wear) sleeve... it would not be the standard MCI part number....a seal for a wear sleeve is proprietary to the wear sleeve...
And some would argue that the seal be put in dry... I would be one of them. Unless the maker specified lubing...
Last...(maybe... ;D ) if the wear sleeve is not installed properly..distorted...all bets are off. and none of the above will help....
Well, we all made it home safe and without major drama.
Strange thing - the wheel seal quit leaking once the oil level in the hub got down to the level of the clear plastic. I have no idea why - yet. Tearing it apart again is towards the top of my list.
Unfortunately, the top thing on the list is now the fuel tank. I discovered the dreaded fuel leak when I got home. I'm going to have to pull the tank and find the leak. Yikes - what do I do with almost 120 gallons of diesel? Gotta talk to the neighbor and see if he has an old tank big enough to hold that much diesel. Then - gotta pull the tank. Is it hard to get out?
Finally, a final screen shot of the stats for my trip:
2,824.5 miles traveled and 306.8 gallons of fuel consumed for a trip average of 9.2 mpg. Other than the wheel seal everything worked properly as it was supposed to. So, in general a successful trip.
Quote from: Brian Diehl on May 16, 2015, 05:21:00 PM... Other than the wheel seal everything worked properly as it was supposed to. So, in general a successful trip.
Nice - congrats! (Sorry about the fuel leak - yeah, a big, messy job.)
Try some Lucas wheel seal stop leak before you replace the seal again. It worked for me, keep some in the coach all the time. You can get it at the truck stops.
What engine do you have in the coach and is the silver leaf showing the correct fuel usage?
Jack
How do you make a SilverLeaf read the correct MPG ? I have the 3.B2 version I have worked with Art @ SliverLeaf he has not made it read accurate yet it shows I get 8.3 mpg but using the pencil with miles traveled and gals used I always come up with 7.2 mpg on the 60 series
Quote from: blue_goose on May 18, 2015, 06:19:10 AM
Try some Lucas wheel seal stop leak before you replace the seal again. It worked for me, keep some in the coach all the time. You can get it at the truck stops.
What engine do you have in the coach and is the silver leaf showing the correct fuel usage?
Jack
Hey Jack - great idea. I'll give that a try first as it sounds like a cheap and simple fix if it works.
The engine is a year 2000 Cummins ISM set at 400 hp. It runs through a Eaton Auto Shift (Gen 1). The mileage is correct within a a tenth of a percent every time. I hand calculate the mileage every trip as well. It is generally off on the high side, never on the low side.
Quote from: luvrbus on May 18, 2015, 07:54:33 AM
How do you make a SilverLeaf read the correct MPG ? I have the 3.B2 version I have worked with Art @ SliverLeaf he has not made it read accurate yet it shows I get 8.3 mpg but using the pencil with miles traveled and gals used I always come up with 7.2 mpg on the 60 series
Clifford - I haven't tweaked anything with my installation. However, I do know it is reading miles very close to what my odometer reads which is very close to what a GPS reads. So, miles traveled is pretty accurate. Fuel usage is generally pretty good as well. So - maybe there is something about how the Series 60 calculates fuel usage or the tire size/differential ratio/transmission ratios are not entered correctly in the DDEC so that distance traveled is not accurate?
Just how full did you have that hub?
That could be it Brian the engine was 400 hp a MCI factory setting I bumped it up to 470 hp it make take a little tweaking on my end
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on May 18, 2015, 07:38:30 PM
Just how full did you have that hub?
I had the oil about 1/2" up the clear plastic. This meant filled almost up to the filler hole.
Over filled.
If you look very closely at the plastic part you will find in small print where the correct fill level is.....you might need reading glasses to see it. ;D
Quote from: Jon on May 20, 2015, 02:58:38 AM
Over filled.
So - will being overfilled cause what I described?
Quote from: Brian Diehl on May 20, 2015, 07:39:23 AM
So - will being overfilled cause what I described?
in my experience, it is pretty hard to overfill them. i think stemco pretty much calculated the maximum amount of oil that one can put in there, there are quite a few different hubs and caps in their catalog for different applications. 3/4 inch and 1 1/8 comes to mind.
if the fill mark was the only acceptable level, they would all have the bigger cap.< in other words they are pretty much idiot proofed (That is a figure of speech and is no-way meant personal)
you may notice that there are no indicators here other than the plug
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F51oUeohH%252BOL._SY300_.jpg&hash=9d13b10ddcfacde02107cf1a9d50855af1b5e79a)
some caps are vented, i would say that the amount that leaked out from the "overfill" could still be an indication of a bad seal, or closed vent
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frigtough.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FOil-Hub-Cap-3434249RT.jpg&hash=bd1f875263a2642de036b45292c846424d8e5f2f)
speaking of which, anybody buy the plugs by the case...they are about 99cents each by the box and $4 each plus shipping by the each... :(
How about the Scotseal CR40091. This is a direct fit for the CR40086. The 40091 is Scotseal plus XL. This appears to be very similar to the triseal. I was unable to find a cross match for the triseal to fit the hub. The instructions also say to prelubricate the seal before installation into the hub and on to the spindle. The installation instructions say this can be installed by hand. The instructions also say it should be able to handle very minor deformities in the spindle or hub. That might be the solution for my problem?
Thoughts? Anyone used one of these?
The hub oil with warm up and if it's overfilled it leaks out until reaching a comfortable level. Mine did this every time I filled them or changed the oil. Once it found its nominal level it stopped leaking.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Brian Diehl on May 27, 2015, 06:50:26 PM
How about the Scotseal CR40091. This is a direct fit for the CR40086. The 40091 is Scotseal plus XL. This appears to be very similar to the triseal. I was unable to find a cross match for the triseal to fit the hub. The instructions also say to prelubricate the seal before installation into the hub and on to the spindle. The installation instructions say this can be installed by hand. The instructions also say it should be able to handle very minor deformities in the spindle or hub. That might be the solution for my problem?
Thoughts? Anyone used one of these?
Not that particular seal # but I have been installing nothing but CR +XLs for better than 10 years. Two failures, one was explainable so one unexplained. I will not even install a Stemco unless a customer signs a waiver. Just make sure you "wet" them with gear oil just prior to installation. They swell with the gear oil to conform to many irregularities in both the spindle seal journal and the hub bore.
BTW the steel case CR (non Scotseal) can sit on the shelf along with the Stemco and National seals as far as I am concerned.
Carefully check the seal journal on the spindle or axle stubs for signs of some poor misguided rookie using a chisel to remove a Stemco wear ring. Some light filing may be needed if there is a line from a chisel.
Thanks Jim! I was hoping someone on the boards had experience with that seal or line of seals.
We had the opportunity to put 1100 miles on the bus this weekend. The first half of the miles were in 80+ degree weather. When I put the front wheel back together I used the CR Scotseal Plus XL wheel seal. I also made sure to check end play. My final end play was around 3 thousandths of an inch of play. After the drive I'm pleased to report NO wheel seal leakage at all. I really liked the XL+ seal and found it so very nice to work with. Hopefully this is the end of that wheel seal leakage saga. Anyway - love the XL+ seal.
Good to hear.
If you are in a discount auto parts store at any time have a look for a cheap infared thermometer. I like to use mine on all kinds of vehicles. I try to remember to check the hubs on all 4 corners when I make a rest stop. Gives me an opportunity to stretch my legs and when I perform my circle check I check the hub temps. Not so much for the actual temps because the really cheap thermometers are oh sooo accurate but rather I am looking for a temperature differential from side to side. It just raises a red flag if the one side is 100+ degrees hotter than the other. That and it opens up the door for all kinds of tall tales to tell when someone sees me pointing my "laser gun" at my wheel hubs. ;)
I've adjusted hundreds of wheel bearings on cars, but I found transferring that experience to the giant parts on the bus hub didn't work. I got the adjustment on mine way out the first time I did it. I found the amount of torque needed to seat the bearings way higher than I was expecting, so I ended up too loose. Thankfully my seals survived and I lived to adjust another day...
Brian