Has anybody installed a side for in the middle of the bus? My new floor plan idea would work out 100% better if our coach door was about in the middle. I'm just kicking around the idea and I've seen it done once but I don't remember where and I didn't look closely at it since I wasn't interested at it at that time. My bus is full of stuff so I can't really figure this out right at the moment, I'm just trying to get information and ideas. I also haven't figured out if it will work better to drop it down and have steps inside the bus or have a large set of steps outside and have the door level with the floor inside. I did find a rv junk yard not too far away and they have some real nice rv doors.
Thanks
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All the GM's I saw which is not many with the mid entry door had to have a overhead truss to support the body it looked to be a lot of work just for a door
My personal opinion is it totally ruins the look of a classic bus. Maybe I just haven't seen one that was done right, but it is usually a big box cut into the side with the roof line totally messed up. But then again, I don't like caps either, so....
Quote from: daddyoften on February 25, 2015, 04:54:57 AMHas anybody installed a side for in the middle of the bus? My new floor plan idea would work out 100% better if our coach door was about in the middle. ...
Yeah, I did. On my bus, there were two doors originally (one in the middle, one by the driver). There were two big problems - being a "transit" bus, they were very wide to allow a number of people to get on or off quickly and they were on the left side; the left side is on the kerb in Britain but it puts you getting on or off in the middle of the street in N America. A secondary problem is that the front entry door and ramp made it impossible to put a passenger/navigator/"Management" seat next to the driver.
I solved that closing in both right side doors and putting in a "midships door". (Secondarily, I extended the floor from the driver's cab flat across to the left side, welded in a seat anchor plate, put in armrest and map pocket and cup holder on the left, allowing a passenger's seat. Also, I took the original middle door area, which was 5' wide, and put in a matching Peninsula window -- the original door step I used for a 100 gallon fresh tank. The dinette booth downstairs will also sit in this space.)
I found that the results were mixed. Yes, I have a door away from traffic, and it allows me to put in a good floorplan, but I made one mistake. When I stripped the siding off the middle of the right side of my bus to cut a hole in the floor, I found a "bay" that was about 5 1/2' long. I decided to frame in the front half of that bay and put my fridge in that space (against the side of the stairs going upstairs). That means that when I enter, the fridge is on the right, the kitchen pantry is right in front of me (super for reaching in the bus and getting a beer from the fridge and a bag of chips from the pantry when we're sitting on lawn chairs outside), and the kitchen area (microwave, work surfaces, 3-burner propane cook top, sink, under-counter storage) is on the left. I wish that I'd have put the door as far forward as possible, though. Now, to go to the driver's seat or go upstairs, I have to enter into what's basically the middle of the kitchen and then pass through the area between the pantry and fridge, then "up the aisle" either to the driver's area or to the stairs. It feels as though the position of the door is "too far back" to be comfortable. It "cuts into the kitchen area" and it seems a long way from the driver's area. It also puts the fridge farther away from the main kitchen work area. It's not the biggest thing, but still I wish that I'd done it differently.
I got the idea of moving the door mainly from two places. Tour companies that use British double-decker buses in the US have a door added on the right side so that there's a curb-side entry/exit for passengers; also, Gary Throneberry ("Garhawk") in Tenn moved the door and entrance ramp on his RTS transit. He did basically what I did -- he extended the driver's area floor across to the right side of the bus and put a passenger's seat (swiveling 180 degrees) in that area and used the space under the new floor as storage. He cut his hole in the side of the bus just behind the front wheel (the wheel enclosure structures usually stick up above the floor in a transit and you have to work around them). This means that he moved his front door back about 4 1/2'. His entrance is still basically "forward" on his bus but it makes a big difference to the feel and usefulness of his floor plan.
Another thing that I'd add is that "transit" buses usually have the floor lower to the ground than highway-coach buses. That means that I open my door, step up to a comfortable step (which I built in), and then one more step has me on the lower floor area; this means that the "cutout" in my floor for the entrance is only about 16" from the outside of the bus. The height of a highway-coach floor means that you'll usually need 3-4 steps and so a stairway like this will intrude much farther into the floor towards the centerline of the bus.
So, I'd summarize by saying that it's possible - in fact, relatively easy - to do. Also, I'd encourage you to look at Gene Lewis's webpage where he clearly outlines his procedure of making a door to fit within a door frame. But I'd also suggest that you think clearly about where to place the new door. It seems to me that as far towards the front as possible is probably a good thing, but that will depend on a lot of things (like the underfloor structure in your bus and your floor plan). The thinking and planning is probably the most important part of this project.
Lot of Eagles with mid entry door the mid entry doesn't take away the classic look on a Eagle,the GM's I saw it didn't either but with a RV door that would IMO
I'd further add that I was dealing with a plain, flat surface. The structure is basically simple box 2" x 1" rectangular steel tubing in "bays". There is thin steel sheeting on the inside of the wall and a plain aluminum sheet skin. All I had to do was to remove the alu skin and weld in two upright 2" x 1" to make the door frame (I also has to add a 2 x 1 steel tube across the bottom of the door frame). Then, I framed in the simple step and welded in steel sheet for the step floor and sides. I reused the original alu sheet (cut down to the correct width, of course) to seal in the area that remained in the "bay" area after the door frame was installed.
I built the door structure to fit. Both the frame in the side of the bus is flat within 1/16" or an inch and parallel and square (with diagonal measurements) within 1/8". Not perfect but pretty good for welding 6' long sticks of steel into a existing structure. The door is also parallel and square within about 1/8" but there's a very small twist along the lower, lock-side edge; also, not perfect but not bad. One thing that I'm sorry that I didn't do was recess the hinge points on the frame and the door. That means that the crack between the hinge-side of the door and the frame is the thickness of the hinges. It was easy to fill that area with "stickon" weather strip, but it's just not the neat job I'd have liked.
I added a small Peninsula window into the door to match the others in the bus. It's a nice touch and extends the window area across the kitchen counter top area forward about 2'. Except that the window is smaller than others and the door lock and latch hardware, it's not really obvious that there's a door there so the "visual" appearance isn't affected; I'll leave it to others to consider the visual appearance of a similar mod to a N. American highway-coach bus.
Yea he will lose baggage bay storage also he cannot gain the lost storage by moving the bay towards the front. the axle and other components get in the way
Quote from: luvrbus on February 25, 2015, 06:58:26 AMYea he will lose baggage bay storage also he cannot gain the lost storage by moving the bay towards the front. the axle and other components get in the way
Yes that's an important difference. On my bus, I actually gained storage space -- I used the original entrance ramp area under the raised/added floor to match the driver's cab to build in a storage bay. It only extends from the side of the bus to the side of the chassis frame rail, but it's a useful addition. The area that was cut into the floor where the new door was placed is only about 10" from the bottom of the floor to the level of the body side so that space would not have made much storage. (My bus did not come with luggage bays underneath, being a "transit", but where there is space I'm adding lockers with about 10" of height. Not nearly as large and useful as the bays on a highway-coach, but a good addition).
Thanks for all the reply's and ideas. I am just in the designing stage and the floor plan works out awesome with a mid door. Our bus is no longer a buffalo and the hump has been raised not with a cap but the PO actually took the room and raised it up to match the rest of the roof line and he built up the stadium seating floor to be level as well, I'm going to redo what he did because I don't like how it did it but I like the outcome. With this much higher headroom in the front I want to put a drop down bunk bed and don't like that will be in the way to get out of the bus. Also after some much thought out thinking we came up with a new design for the whole lay out of the front of the bus.
Here's my plan. Close off the front door, Level the floor between the driver and the old door so there are no longer steps except to get up to the higher floor of the rest of the bus. Then move the passenger seat down to the same level as the driver. Up on the main level we will have two "L" shaped couches with the L towards the front of the bus with a small gap towards the front with a removable piece to make the couches a big "U" shape when parked. With the only time we need to get to the driving/passenger area would be to drive somewhere. With the mid ship door there is no need for a lot of traffic to the front of the bus anymore. There would also be a removable table to put in the middle of the "U" couch for eating and game playing for my large family.
That's my latest toughts anyways. ;D
Eric
Take a look at some 1946 and newer ACFBrill IC-41's; they had a door back from the front. I had one and liked it's placement, although it wasn't as far back as you desire.
https://www.google.com/search?q=acf+brill+ic-41&espv=2&biw=1242&bih=585&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=KCbuVKP3MYXNgwTmmoHYBg&ved=0CB0QsAQ (https://www.google.com/search?q=acf+brill+ic-41&espv=2&biw=1242&bih=585&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=KCbuVKP3MYXNgwTmmoHYBg&ved=0CB0QsAQ)
We have the mid entry door in our Eagle. Although we like the location of the door, we wish they had engineered it so that there would be two or three drop down steps on the outside. There is only one and that makes the steps inside really steep. If the door had been raised up a least one step and put that step on the outside, things would have been a lot easier for entry.
We lost the bay space under the steps, but the gain in the front was actually larger.
Don and Cary
I think if I were to install another side door into my 4107, I would build it like an airplane were it flips down out of the body and becomes the steps as well. Might be able to use the same material and just build a frame to handle the steps. JAT.
Ken
Again great info, thank you
Don and Cary, I'm thinking the same thing, raising the door up about half way or so. I'm thinking about using a nice rv door, re use the skin from the cargo door so it matches and then making drop down stairs kinda like Ken is suggesting. I also like the added built in screen door from the rv door.
Yes there will be storage gained from the front door area. I also have added room under the front raised floor from where the stadium seating use to be.
Eric
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Hi Eric,
Since my good name has already been used in vain, I might as well weigh in on this mid-entry door discussion.
Yes, I did close in the right front corner door in my GM RTS and build a new one directly behind the right front wheel. It was made difficult mostly due to the convex curve of the RTS side wall. With the straight sided Eagle, you are half way there already.
With all due respect to those who have responded, here are my suggestions:
A. Use the bay floor as the base for your stairs. If you're concerned about the depth the stairs will protrude toward the centerline of your coach, make a right angle or, curve them.
B. Decide on your door latch, lock(s) and hinges before building the casings. Remember to leave enough space between the casing and door edge for seals and flanges. When finished, you'd like the door to be air tight and flush.
C. Don't build the door any taller than is required for a six foot two inch man to comfortably pass without ducking. Think chassis integrity. Consider modifying the front door for use as the side entry.
Whatever space is lost at the placement of the side door is gained at the closing of the corner door! It simply changes your overall design requirements.
Now you can have the front passenger seat on the same level and forward placement as the driver. Really makes for easier conversation plus, the passenger can now have their own window (ventilation) and floor for footrests. The only added footsteps in and out of the coach are those for the driver - overall, they are greatly reduced.
As to the appearance of the side vs front, that's personal - don't like it, don't do it. There are as many opinions on the change as there are bus nuts.
Several Eagle owners have made the change and appear to be happy with their decision. Look 'em up in the archives and have a conversation.
My Eagle was already a finished conversion when I bought it. Otherwise it would be a side entrance!
C.
Garhawk, Those are some great points. My bus is actually a 4107 with the hump raised in the front already. I'm starting with an empty shell so that helps out greatly. I am looking to use a preframed 72" high RV door so the frame work is already done and it has a built in screen door. Mine will be about at the back of the second bay. I have to have some better weather here first so I can unload all the crap in the bus so I can lay out the exact floor plan. But I do love the idea of the passenger being more up with me and the only reason to get in and out of the front will be for just the two of us. When parked the front cockpit will be shut off from the kids. As far as looks go the bus already has the rear R&M caps, RV windows and the front was a custom raise with the existing roof. I kinda like it better than the R&M front caps, so it already lost some of the bus looks. I do like the bus look over an RV but the layout of a mid door sure works better for our needs. And hey, if it looks great but we can't use it then it doesn't do us much good ;) I'm pretty good at taking old parts and re-using them in a new design. I'm planning on taking the skin off the bay door where the new door will cut into it and applying it to the RV door as to help it blend in more, and the RV door has unpainted aluminum trim on it already so the bottom will blend in more and I can paint the top to match what ever we decide to do there.
Eric
No one has mentioned this here, so maybe I'm mistaken, but I had always heard that GMs were monocoque, dependent on the skin for structural integrity. Therefore cutting any holes for slides or relocated doors was like cutting a hole in an egg. Unless you correctly framed around the hole, one had a good chance of major problems. I know my '04 has very little framing. Eagles, of course, are considerably different.
Not to be discouraging, just cautious.
Good luck.
Eric -
Ted brings up a good point that yes, has been overlooked.
Your 4107 is of a monocoque construction design. The exterior skin is, in fact, the main frame, held square by the floor and the bulkheads. It's not like an Eagle, where there's a "birdcage" frame behind the skin that takes all the loads, the skin being just decoration.
If you have the shell gutted, look at the heavy stringers running forward from the rear window on the roof's interior that come almost to the center of the rear bay. Those actually spread the load of the powertrain's weight into the structure of the coach, as an example of how the monocoque design works.
That being said, yes, you can install a mid-ship door, there are a couple 4104's running around both on the East & West coasts with them. However, the 4104s have much heavier aluminum siding than the 4107s - it's one of the ways GM cut costs with the later models - so their chassis' are a quite a bit stiffer. I know of a mobile dentist hear locally that put a wide lift in the side of a 4106 above the first baggage bin so he could accommodate wheelchair patients in rural areas. Worked fine for about five years, then the coach had to be scrapped because it collapsed in middle - he hadn't reinforced the chassis when he cut the hole for the lift. He's now using an MC-9 that came from the factory with a wheelchair lift, thus designed into the chassis.
The point is - yes, you can do it. BUT - you'd better be prepared to reinforce the structure to make up for the loss of rigidity from the new hole.
Oh, and for heaven's sake - don't forget handrails!! And possibly some way to cover the hole in the floor created by the new stairwell while underway so somebody doesn't end up falling into it!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Eric,
RJ is correct. The ribs, steel and aluminum siding and the aluminum channel all work together to support the weight and shape of the bus. If you take a look at my bus build page you will see one of the main structure ribs that was cut and the aluminum channel that helps spread the load across the whole bus structure. I have been lucky,, in that my bus has not shown any damage to the rest of the structure due to the door being hacked into the side of it. I believe that due to the floor and the aluminum channel running the length of the bus not being compromised is why it held up.
Good luck with your project and please send some pictures!
Ken