My current water setup is a mixture of several things and I need to make some changes to it.
While I understand that glued PVC joints would be prone to coming lose with the vibration on a bus, is there any other reason not to use it? There are now PVC connectors that are very similar to Shark Bites and aren't that expensive, so what is the difference between using those and using PEX with a Shark Bite?
To me the pros of the PVC so far are that it is a lot less expensive and a lot less prone to punctures and such. PEX is really meant to be run in walls so to me it isn't really designed for the bus environment either.
Having had both in my bus and other RV's, I find that PEX is far superior. PVC is more prone to cracking, fracturing, freeze damage and mechanical damage. PEX is designed for unprotected installation in basements, etc. PEX is actually a lot tougher than PVC, a hammer blow that will shatter PVC won't hurt PEX at all. I got a first hand comparison last spring when I de-winterized the bus and found a half dozen cracks (in fully drained lines) and ripped all the PVC out and installed all new PEX. I would personally use the solid fittings and the correct band crimps, installed with the correct crimping tool. I got the one for the solid band crimps, but in hindsight the cheaper pinch crimps would probably have been just as good, and easier to use. I do use Shark-bite for some joints where it's impossible to get the crimp tool in and I didn't think the work through before-hand.
My PVC was the white hard plastic stuff, fwiw, maybe there are different types.
Brian
PVC and Polybutylene pipe have been in my bus for ever. I would not wish to have the Polybutylene pipe were i building today and would replace it with PEX if the need arose, but it has not.
PVC does not often get whacked by a hammer ???
if freezing is not an issue, go with PVC
While the weather here in Florida today does feel like below freezing to Floridians, the water isn't going to get cold enough to freeze.
Go for it then, use what makes you happy. PEX makes me happy, I look at those blue and red pipes and feel very happy that I finished that job and don't have to do it again! FWIW Shark-bites are fully compatible with both the PVC and copper pipe, and you can use them to make transitions between the different types of systems. I do recall reading that the current PVC is improved from what was around 15 years ago.
Brian
The new PVC is a bit better and with 1/2" it is a lot more flexible than bigger sizes.
If you're worried about PEX being damaged, it's easy to run 1/2" PEX inside 3/4"-ID metal tube such as EMT. I did that where I have long unsupported runs of PEX across the tops of my luggage bays, using some pieces of anodized thin-wall aluminum tube from IMS's cheap bin. You could also use flex conduit to protect PEX, similar to how I put 1/4" DOT nylon airbrake tube inside 3/8" aluminum flex conduit where it could possibly otherwise by crushed or damaged.
John
Sharkbite fitting compatible with cooper and Pex will only work on CPVC not the standard sch 40 white stuff fwiw ,lol the RV industry is still using the gray Poly pipe ban from housing 20 years ago
Pex is approved for water distribution while PVC is not. I would avoid PVC if it were mine but it is not. Pex properly installed in my opinion is the way to go.
HTH
Melbo
Doing plumbing nowadays, Pex is the only way to go. I would not even protect it, it is so durable. Unless you are afraid of hitting it with a chain saw, or the like
JC
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I should clarify that it would be 1/2" CPVC not standard sprinkler PVC.
Quote from: Melbo on February 18, 2015, 12:23:03 PM
Pex is approved for water distribution while PVC is not. I would avoid PVC if it were mine but it is not. Pex properly installed in my opinion is the way to go.
HTH
Melbo
Where..
PVC piping is recognized as acceptable material for DWV, sewers, and potable water services and distribution in all model plumbing codes. These Codes normally identify acceptable products for specific uses based on the ASTM Standard designation
Don apparently the reason they frown on using it inside of dwellings is that they don't want plumbers accidentally using standard cold water PVC on the hot side.
Quote from: mung on February 18, 2015, 12:33:17 PM
Don apparently the reason they frown on using it inside of dwellings is that they don't want plumbers accidentally using standard cold water PVC on the hot side.
A licensed plumber would not do that....would he/she ?
I of course am familiar with what is acceptable to the inspectors in my jurisdiction and was referencing that. There is always the minimum standard and if that works for you go for it. As I said it is not mine. You would be surprised at what licensed tradesmen do all the time.
Melbo
hi All, I used plastic gutters, rain spouts, to carry the hot and cold pex across the bay from the utility side, I used the round pipe foam for the hot water red tubing to retain heat and not heat up the blue cold water tube, I have a mixture of the new bend right angle pex form and the solid elbow for, my corners. the grey buteral plastic pipe Clifford if was talking about was in my house,from the 70s, it shreads pieces of plastic of microscopic size. if you have it don't ingest any of that water. lvmci...
Water to house comes from PVC pipe in almost all areas of country are you saying PVC is just not allowed inside the house?
Distribution piping is that that supplies fixtures. Kind of like drain line vs sewer line. Once the water is in the house and you tap into the line it becomes distribution piping. Once the drain line exits the building (usually 2' beyond the wall) it becomes sewer line. Just odd code terms BUT the newer PVC is "usually" ok for hot water and older PVC was not so it might be acceptable some places. The code of course is the minimum standard that is acceptable to most enforcement agencies. Any state or municipality can ( when permits are required and inspections are performed ) ask for a more restrictive use of materials and standards.
HTH
Melbo
Hi Clifford, polybutylene Pipes Failed, polybutene is different and confusing the names are so similarly spelled.
the 1980s, many people filed class action lawsuits against manufacturers, who settled the cases without admitting that the pipes were flawed in any way. The largest lawsuit, Cox vs. Shell Oil, resulted in the company paying almost $1 billion in damages.
Read more : http://www.ehow.com/facts_6114527_polybutylene-piping-banned_.html (http://www.ehow.com/facts_6114527_polybutylene-piping-banned_.html)
Soon after polybutylene plumbing became popular, the piping began to fail without warning, causing hundreds of millions of dollars in damage to people's homes. Failure was later attributed to interaction between the pipes and chlorine in public water systems, which caused the pipes to become brittle.
Read more : http://www.ehow.com/facts_6114527_polybutylene-piping-banned_.html (http://www.ehow.com/facts_6114527_polybutylene-piping-banned_.html)
I consider it dangerous to ingest after reading up on it, not harmful to wash with, but mine kept breaking, lvmci...
Vern -My Angola Coach is plumbed with CPVC, and there are almost a dozen patches in the service bay where it's been fixed. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I also lost the city water fill line when I was up at my daughter's in Kelowna, BC during Christmas - when I went to fill the fresh water tank before Quartzsite, I ended up with 100 gallons in the tank and 300 down the gutter. I now have some PEX sitting in the baggage bin to replace the CPVC.
Quote from: Iceni John on February 18, 2015, 12:10:38 PM
If you're worried about PEX being damaged, it's easy to run 1/2" PEX inside 3/4"-ID metal tube such as EMT.
John -Good idea! My city water fill line runs along the exterior back wall of the rear luggage bin from the street side almost to the curb side, thus totally exposed to the elements. Not to mention alligators! Thanks! ;D
Quote from: lvmci on February 18, 2015, 02:10:10 PM
I used plastic gutters, rain spouts, to carry the hot and cold pex across the bay from the utility side, I used the round pipe foam for the hot water red tubing to retain heat and not heat up the blue cold water tube.
Tom -Another good idea, thanks for sharing! ;D
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Pex is the best option out there today how long it will last is anybodies guess.I am redoing a couple of houses with Pex just because of the price the coil stuff is a major PITA to work with if I did it again it would be in sticks.
The code here says to use the copper transition out of the wall at each fixture something I didn't want to do
LOL by the time I get finished the state of CA will come out with a test result PEX causes cancer in some rats they all ways do
Seems like there is at least some good arguments for PEX. I guess I will order a crimp tool.
as I am a pex believer
here is a story I am sure I have told before
I helped my son replumb his last house . I told him that in all the years I have been using pex I never had a leak . so as we turned on the water after all was changed he asked why is that fitting dripping ? at 50 lbs of pressure and some DUMMY ( me ) forgot to crimp the ring ! so I grab the crimper and no more drip ?
1 thing I like about pex is you can turn the fitting at the crimp to tighten or loosen a thread on fitting with out installing a union and again no leeks ?
ps I have only used shark bits for a quick fix then latter I replace with a pex fitting and crimp rings
hope this helps
dave
Mung you don't plan on traveling in your bus anywhere? It freezes in a lot of the country elsewhere you know. I think if you are building you would want to build something that was suitable for use anywhere.
I don't plan to travel anywhere that is below freezing, I live in Florida for a reason :P
What is the difference in the crimp tool types?
Will this do the job?
http://www.amazon.com/Pex-Cinch-Clamp-Fastening-tool/dp/B003IJ0USC/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t (http://www.amazon.com/Pex-Cinch-Clamp-Fastening-tool/dp/B003IJ0USC/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t)
Clifford, California thinks that everything causes cancer!
Quote from: mung on February 19, 2015, 06:12:36 AM
Will this do the job?
http://www.amazon.com/Pex-Cinch-Clamp-Fastening-tool/dp/B003IJ0USC/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t (http://www.amazon.com/Pex-Cinch-Clamp-Fastening-tool/dp/B003IJ0USC/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t)
Vern, in another thread, someone described the two different types of clamping ring. Some people like one, some the other. I can't find it but it will explain the different types and how the tools for them (the tools are different for the type or ring).
I thought we beat this horse to death in another thread started by ACE? haha! Have fun guys, but you know where I stand on this :) I'm thinking of getting a tattoo that says "PEX RULZ"
Well, I am going to use PEX so you guys got me that far, I am not going to use the big nasty crimp rings, so I will just order the tool above.
There are about four or five different crimp or connector styles now, they all seem to work but the pinch ring style seems the cheapest and easiest. You MUST use the calibrated pinch tool or they will leak, I proved that!
Brian
Probably good to have around anyway, I have some stuff around the house that would be better off with PEX runs.
Mung I hope you are in south Florida We are sending some below weather your way.
-28 degree wind chill weather tonight in the NC mountains.
uncle ned
Vern
this is what I use
http://www.amazon.com/Crimpers-Plumbing-Crimping-Copper-Gonogo/dp/B00LSF14DS/ref=sr_1_24?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1424383004&sr=1-24&keywords=pex+crimp+rings (http://www.amazon.com/Crimpers-Plumbing-Crimping-Copper-Gonogo/dp/B00LSF14DS/ref=sr_1_24?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1424383004&sr=1-24&keywords=pex+crimp+rings)
http://www.amazon.com/SharkBite-23102CP100-Crimp-Rings-2-Inch/dp/B007AGM6FO/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1424383004&sr=1-1&keywords=pex+crimp+rings (http://www.amazon.com/SharkBite-23102CP100-Crimp-Rings-2-Inch/dp/B007AGM6FO/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1424383004&sr=1-1&keywords=pex+crimp+rings)
http://www.amazon.com/PEX-1210C-Remove-2-Inch-4-Inch-1-Inch/dp/B00MHCDRHC/ref=sr_1_8?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1424383004&sr=1-8&keywords=pex+crimp+rings (http://www.amazon.com/PEX-1210C-Remove-2-Inch-4-Inch-1-Inch/dp/B00MHCDRHC/ref=sr_1_8?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1424383004&sr=1-8&keywords=pex+crimp+rings)
http://www.amazon.com/Watts-LFWP19B-08PB-2-inch-Brass-10-Pack/dp/B004QAOAGK/ref=sr_1_20?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1424383004&sr=1-20&keywords=pex+crimp+rings (http://www.amazon.com/Watts-LFWP19B-08PB-2-inch-Brass-10-Pack/dp/B004QAOAGK/ref=sr_1_20?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1424383004&sr=1-20&keywords=pex+crimp+rings)
now I went for years before I got the ring cutter ...I just used a angle grinder or a die grinder
there is other crimp rings and crimpers but 15 years ago this is what I started with and still use today
again this is my way so go look at them at your home building store to see what you like
dave
Thanks, I am going to be going to the big box stores on Saturday and looking for stuff.
Boomer due to the absolute quality of your builds can I ask you why you don't use your coach water, or is it just that you don't drink it?
For what it is worth, the push-to-connect fittings (like shark bite) use a o-ring to seal the joint. The design of the fitting puts the o-ring in tension. When the o-ring breaks (not IF), the fitting will leak.
We use these push-to-connect type of fittings all the time at work, we replace lots of leaking fittings too . . . . But, assembly sure is quick. ;D
Did not want to hear that Kyle, I did a studio office a couple years back and that was all I used, dang.
Ok here another one no one has talked about. I used white Sharkbite 10 foot stick pipe 1/2" with Pex solid crimp fittings and rings. It is easy as pex but is easier to run in the short sticks. It is food grade and the same flexability of Pex but a lot cheaper in price. I found a used crimper at an estate sale for 2 dollars.
Dave
Nice! Food grade, is that better than normal? Tom, lvmci...
Oh my the dye coloring in the blue and red Pex is going to cause cancer in rats,I do agree with sticks the coils are a PITA but I am not convinced about the Sharkbite fitting I still crimp
Tom both are food grade. Was just stating that it was same as Pex before some Californian or Arizonan,stated it would cause chaos in the stomach. LOL
Clifford I would not use Sharkbite fittings. I used Sharkbite Pipe with Pex fittings. Only because the pipe is the same but in short lengths instead of the coil. Otherwise I would have used the Blue and the Red. I don't need the colors to tell which is which. And as far as the dyes causing Cancer I would think I would be more worried about dying in a dust storm or pelted to death by sand in Arizona than dyes, ;D Just messin with Yas.
We did like the fact that in Arizona you can see forever because there aren't any trees to stop your vision!......... :o
Dave
digester: Oh, we use water from our tank alright. We just never drink from tank water. I don't trust campground water or other water sources. And desert water is always bad. (let the SW dwellers blast me now).
Ever seen a camper wash out his dump hose with water from the fresh spigot in a campground? I have.
We have plenty of water in this AZ valley drink it no way I won't even wash a vehicle in it but the hay loves it ;D
hi All, I let my blue & red coils sit in the sun, relaxes them some. I have never drank from holding tanks in any RV, just wash and flush with them, started with the kids years ago, bringing bottled water to drink & cook with, tom ,lvmci...
You body absorbs anything in the tank when you shower drinking from it just speeds the process up >:( Now I have this thing about drinking from anything made of plastic the VCM (vinyl chloride) is some nasty stuff. I worked at Tenneco in the 60's where they made it
Quote from: lvmci on February 20, 2015, 01:36:44 PM
hi All, I let my blue & red coils sit in the sun, relaxes them some. I have never drank from holding tanks in any RV, just wash and flush with them, started with the kids years ago, bringing bottled water to drink & cook with, tom ,lvmci...
I also had problems with the coiled PEX not wanting to go straight, so I put it inside 10' lengths of 3/4" EMT conduit and left it in the sun for a few days. It's not quite as straight as the sticks, but good enough. Of course, if you live in the eastern states, this method may not work so well now . . .
John
I am calculating how much it would cost to bring pex coils to a place warm enough to heat them up and I live in Florida, so that is really sad.
LOL I live in AZ I tied mine off to a pickup and pulled it with my tractor left it in the heat for 4 or 5 hrs with tension on it the Pex wasn't completely straight and the Pex still tried to coil back but more manageable to work with fwiw I was using 3/4 inch the 1/2 inch was a little easier to work but not by much
Pro's seem to love the coiled PEX, they just pull it through and let it un-coil as they pull it. The joys of working new construction... It's when you are trying to fish stuff around and through existing holes that it gets hard.
Brian
Quote from: luvrbus on February 18, 2015, 12:22:28 PM
Sharkbite fitting compatible with cooper and Pex will only work on CPVC not the standard sch 40 white stuff fwiw ,lol the RV industry is still using the gray Poly pipe ban from housing 20 years ago
The last (and only) factory built RV I bought in 2003 had standard PEX in it. No gray poly in it.
I guess I don't understand how PEX is really that much more expensive than PVC. PVC requires more connectors typically since it isn't flexible. There are plastic elbows, tees, and so on instead of metal that are less expensive. I personally think PEX is less likely to be damaged. PVC can break when hit while PEX has give to it.
Not trying to be a smart A-ss.... who goes around hitting water pipes ?
There aer miles and miles of PVC that has suffered zero failure for 40 years or more.
I get the I want the latest greatest neatest stuff in my coach, but there is nothing wrong with PVC. And ..... If PEX is so great, why the heck would you run it in conduit ?
Saw a 2010 Newmar that Quest gray pipe was everywhere even had the Quest manifold that is all most RV supply's sell is the Quest fitting,valves and pipe YMMD Belfert,nothing wrong with PVC,CPVC,Quest or Pex in a RV IMO Pex is just cheaper and easier
All the water pumps for RV's have the Quest fittings to tie the water pump to the lines unless that has changed in the last few months
Well, I started my job and as I was pulling out the old mess, the CPVC line coming from the water heater was shattered down the entire length, so it failed in a big way at some point. Must have been part of the "small" leak he said needed to be fixed.
Quote from: mung on February 21, 2015, 03:40:33 PM
Well, I started my job and as I was pulling out the old mess, the CPVC line coming from the water heater was shattered down the entire length, so it failed in a big way at some point. Must have been part of the "small" leak he said needed to be fixed.
Sounds like the "small" leak I have on Tortoise - goes from the water fill connection on the driver's side of the coach all the way across the rear baggage bay bulkhead to the curb side. It split when I went up to my daughter's in Kelowna, BC for Christmas.
The joys of one-bedroom-condos-on-wheels, eh?
;)
Quote from: eagle19952 on February 21, 2015, 01:36:34 PM
Not trying to be a smart A-ss.... who goes around hitting water pipes ?
There aer miles and miles of PVC that has suffered zero failure for 40 years or more.
I get the I want the latest greatest neatest stuff in my coach, but there is nothing wrong with PVC. And ..... If PEX is so great, why the heck would you run it in conduit ?
I mentioned running PEX inside EMT conduit because I have some long unsupported runs next to the frame rails - I'm not going to drill holes into frame rails every 12" for support clips, so running it inside something rigid is the best way. Plus, inside the luggage bay I don't want things in there to bang against the water, gas and air lines there, hence my protecting them from any possible damage.
John
Quote from: mung on February 21, 2015, 03:40:33 PM
Well, I started my job and as I was pulling out the old mess, the CPVC line coming from the water heater was shattered down the entire length, so it failed in a big way at some point. Must have been part of the "small" leak he said needed to be fixed.
well that is one place (even I know) that you don't use anything but copper in the first two or three feet....same as an air compressor.
I would not use PEX or anything but copper or iron there.
Can Pex be expanded just a bit if you have a tight fitting barb? If so what is the preferred way to do it?
I can't find the one I have as it is a kitec reamer but this should work
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Conduit-Reamer-19352/100647804 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Conduit-Reamer-19352/100647804)
dave
A battery terminal expanding tool from AutoZone for 5 bucks works for me
Apparently it's code in some places that you need to use metal for 18" out of a water heater. It's allowed direct to the water heater here, fwiw. My house has 3/4" PEX direct to the water heater.
Edit - I can't even find the metal to pex extensions in any supply house here locally, in the on-line catalogs. I'm going to look into this further, I have found many many discussions where the manufacturers of the PEX require the metallic extensions. Looking like a project is in my future... >:(
Brian
I used the pex heat line ( 200 f ) from the w/h to the manifold
dave
Well, I am finding out more stuff. I went to the BOW website, since I have BOW SUPERPEX in everything here. This is what they said:
• Bow permits the use of Bow SUPERPEX when
connected to instantaneous water heaters or
other hot water producing devices. However,
consult manufacturers recommendations for
use with plastic tubing and ensure temperature
and pressure do not exceed the maximum
ratings of the SUPERPEX tubing.
When connecting to a gas hot water heater, at
least 18 inches of a metal nipple or appliance
connector should be used so that the SUPERPEX
pipe cannot be damaged by the build-up of
excessive radiant heat from the flue.
SUPERPEX can be piped directly to the heater
tapping on an electric hot water heater using
metallic termination fittings.
My hot water heater is a powered vent propane gas heater, so the flue is piped with white ABS plastic and does not get hot to speak of, so apparently the restriction due to excessive radiant heat from the flue pipe does not apply in my installation. In my bus, the gas heater is obviously outside on the other side of the tank from the water connections. It is allowable to connect BOW Superpex directly to an electric hot water heater, so the issue is not the heat of the water itself.
My daily dose of education due to the Bus Conversion forum, I would say! ;D
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on February 22, 2015, 07:39:47 AM
Well, I am finding out more stuff.
My daily dose of education due to the Bus Conversion forum, I would say! ;D
Brian
I would not use PEX or anything but copper or iron there ... Glad I could help ... ::)
HD and Lowes both sell the adapter from the hot water tank to the PEX they are not cheap but required here by the county code even on electric water heaters
Quote from: luvrbus on February 22, 2015, 10:11:19 AMHD and Lowes both sell the adapter from the hot water tank to the PEX they are not cheap but required here by the county code even on electric water heaters
Yep, hot and cold sides. $37 wasted IMO ...
I just made my own 18" extension using copper tube, and a copper to pex adapter. Cheap and easy.Probably cost under $2
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on February 22, 2015, 10:37:31 AM
Yep, hot and cold sides. $37 wasted IMO ...
Ah... the code mostly cares about the die-electric/insulating property of the connection.... it is to keep your wife/kid/yourself from getting shockacuted when the element or ground or whatever fails and your hot water heater becomes a shock box....